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Personnel or coaching? Chicken or the egg?
- Thread starter TheRealJoker
- Start date
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Fred Bennett
Dunta Robinson
John Busing
Eugene Wilson
Amobi Okoye
From another thread.
DerekLee1 said:
1) It's well past time to blame Casserly for current problems. The new staff has been here long enough to take responsibility for the team. I'm not sure why Rick Smith enjoys such a great reputation as a discoverer of talent.
2) Beyond point one, the defenses in the Capers/Casserly years were better than what they have now.
3) Not everyone wanted Bush or Young. Apparently not even your whipping boy Casserly.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Yeah, and I'd trade Antwaun Molden for a decent free safety. I'd trade Connor Barwin for a decent free safety. I'd trade Most of our first four round picks of the past couple of years for a decent safety. Its a joke to think you can ignore the most important stopgap in your defense for your entire franchise history and think that you'll be okay.
If I hear one more person tell me that we have to draft more D-Line and that it will make our secondary look good then I am going to scream. Our safeties suck. They have always sucked. I'd bet we've given up more big plays then any other franchise in the nfl over the past 3 years. Anybody remember the lee evans game? What about Calvin Johnson last year on the sucktastic lions? Chris johnson's field day? MJD busting off another one? The incomparably uncovered Chansi Stuckey? Any of this making you people want another DT? My God i'm so sick of the same ****.
So would all of us. But what "decent" safeties were available when those guys were taken? We need to be able to use a first-round pick on a good safety because there ain't no good ones being let go by any teams. There were so many gigantic holes on this pathetic defense, it will take half a generation to fill them all. Frankly, Eugene Wilson was the best FA safety to come available in the last few years, and we got him. And he's not all that good either.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
Darelle Revis was still on the board when we drafted Okoye. How about all the big name free agent DB's that were on the market the past 3 years that we passed on or never considered?
I haven't seen anything in "Smithiak's" history that shows me that they're willing to pay for decent DB's. They might be overpriced, but "the going rate's the going rate." Any team that wants good DB's pays the premium.
If the personnel is the problem, then the GM is the problem which means that the coach is the problem because they're all his guys.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
We could have william moore, Sherrod Martin, or Mike Mitchell right now instead of a situational edge rusher.
Instead of Antoine "I can't see the field" Caldwell, we could have Rashad Johnson playing safety for us. I can do this to most of our draft picks.
Its one thing to draft the wrong guy. Its another to ignore the position forever.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
If we wanted veteran leadership and a bandaid at safety we could've signed Brian Dawkins instead of resigning Eugene Wilson. Dawkins was the leader on one of the best defenses in the last decade. Eugene got cut from Tampa Bay before he got here.
TexansFanatic
Extremist
And that's an excellent point.
You can say it's not the coach's fault that the players suck. But then who picked the players?
Answer: the coach.
Ruh-roh.
Porky
Hall of Fame
If I had a dollar for every time a safety made a bad play in this franchise's history, I would make Bill Gates look like Mother Teresa. We have not had one single freaking decent safety in the entire 8 years of this franchise. The only servicable one we ever had was Marlon Mcree and it isn't like he is Ed Reed. And they tossed him anyway. I think Wilson can be serviable in coverage but he isn't all that and a bag of chips. He isn't a "plus" player.
It's been consistent across various coaches, schemes, GM's, and personel. In fact, If one was a conspiracy buff he might stop and think who is the only person consistently there the whole time, and wonders if said person doesn't want to pay big bucks to such a non glamour position.
It's been consistent across various coaches, schemes, GM's, and personel. In fact, If one was a conspiracy buff he might stop and think who is the only person consistently there the whole time, and wonders if said person doesn't want to pay big bucks to such a non glamour position.
If I had a dollar for every time a safety made a bad play in this franchise's history, I would make Bill Gates look like Mother Teresa. We have not had one single freaking decent safety in the entire 8 years of this franchise. The only servicable one we ever had was Marlon Mcree and it isn't like he is Ed Reed. And they tossed him anyway. I think Wilson can be serviable in coverage but he isn't all that and a bag of chips. He isn't a "plus" player.
It's been consistent across various coaches, schemes, GM's, and personel. In fact, If one was a conspiracy buff he might stop and think who is the only person consistently there the whole time, and wonders if said person doesn't want to pay big bucks to such a non glamour position.
Again, if you go after a safety, you don't get Cushing, Okoye, Mario, Dunta, or Duane Brown (who has been superb). The big misses were Travis Johnson and Jason Babin. It comes down to having too many needs and not enough first round draft picks. Not to beat a dead horse, but the fact is, Casserly's misses are STILL killing us. Sure, I think the jury's still out on Okoye, but I don't think in drafting him he was considered a "project". MOST boards had him in the top 10, and many had him as high as 5. It was not a reach, and at the time, everyone here thought he was a great pick.
It's easy to look back and say, "Oh, why did we take this guy when we could've had that guy?" Don't you think San Diego would love to throw back the Ryan Leaf pick? Or Tennessee Vince Young? Hindsight is 20/20, and all in all, the Smithiak team has been all "hits" on their drafting. The fact is, there STILL isn't enough talent on our defense.
Battle Red Flash
Waterboy
I believe it's coaching and personnel decisions, both.
If Dungy was head coach, and Rex Ryan was D Coordinator, would we be this bad with these players?
Answer: No Freaking Way.
Saying that, our DT's and Safeties blow chunks. That's Smith's fault.
If Dungy was head coach, and Rex Ryan was D Coordinator, would we be this bad with these players?
Answer: No Freaking Way.
Saying that, our DT's and Safeties blow chunks. That's Smith's fault.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
A first round pick isn't necessary to improve the position. A pick before the 7th probably is. Stop blaming casserly for a problem this regime has had ample time to address
Porky
Hall of Fame
I know what you are saying but man I have to disagree. Whole teams are assembled and rebuilt in 4 years in this league. If you are still blaming Asserly for this team, that dog won't hunt. How many players still exist from the Casserly regime? It's very few. Nope, the lack of a decent safety or decent tackles falls squarley at the feet of Gary Smithiak. Rick and Gary have assembled this squad. If they don't have enough talent, that is their fault, and I'm about ready to show both of them the door and get someone in here who knows what the hell a safety is.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
sadly you are probably correct
Houston is the city with the longest drought of no playoffs, ties with Detroit (last appearance 1999) and that does not count the few years we had without a team. We are basically looking at a 9 year drought, not including this season ['94-'96 + '02-'07]. Such great company...sarcastically speaking, of course.
This team had way more than one bad position when Smithiak took over. DE, DT, QB, LB, TE, OL, RB, and S were all terrible. Beyond Dunta and AJ, our CB's and WR's were also awful. In our 4th year now, we have a very good QB, receiving corps, LB corps, RB, TE, at least one great DE, and a solid OL. That's a hell of a lot to fix in 3 years.
I'm frustrated as hell, too at how long this has taken to fix. But in reading my own posts and thinking things through, I think I'll give this regime a bit of a break if they've fixed all but two positions in 3 years.
Porky
Hall of Fame
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
I won't. S was and has been the worst. You can disagree if you like, but I've been screaming for a FS since sean taylor was in college.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
i'd say its about a draw...we had more experience back then, but the talent was still dookie..
It's 4 years.
We're IN their fourth year. You can't say you've been through a year until it's been a year. You don't turn a year older the day after your birthday!
Sure, and I've been screaming for a RB since 2002. We still haven't landed a top-tier one, because there are STILL too many holes to fill.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
LMAO. I've been screaming defense ever since we actually had some pretty good guys on that side of the ball. The problem was that they were all on the downside of their careers and their shelf life was short. Sharper, Glenn, Coleman, Wong, Payne, Walker were all like 67 years old when they came here.
Porky
Hall of Fame
Well, Boob Mcsquare isn't going to fire anyone in mid year. It's not his style. So, we'll be served a big pile of warmed over dog crap for the rest of the year making it four solid years of incompentent defense. So, there you go. Four years.
Porky
Hall of Fame
Still too many holes to fill? Hell the Great Wall of China and the Pyramids were built in less time than this team needs to fill holes.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Rick Smith had nothing to do with Mario Williams, Owen Daniels, Eric Winston or David Anderson.
He's just now addressed the DE position with Smith and Barwin, both of whom haven't produced a whole lot. Its still early there though.
He hasn't addressed safety at all. A bunch of special teamers, that's it.
He botched the DT position with Okam and Okoye, so far anyway.
Myers has been less than average. He did pick up Studdard but the jury is still out on him. I like Caldwell, props there although he hasn't seen the field. Love Duane Brown.
Our CBs are just as bad as before he came around. Actually Reeves is an upgrade, but he missed on Bennett. Small school players like Molden (can't stay healthy or get on the field), Quin, and McCain have been non factors. It's still early on those guys but we needed immediate help.
He brought in one good RB in Slaton, who's struggling. Other than Slaton he has done little to upgrade that.
He's done well with linebackers. Ill give him that. Diles, Cushing, and Adibi are significant upgrades.
He picked up Casey, who I guess could replace Daniels but why replace him? He is a probowler. Casey can't see the field with Owen, Dreesen, and Hill on the roster.
I think Smith hasn't done nearly enough. Sure he upgraded LB, picked up one good RB in 3 years, got a couple OL that Alex Gibbs can work with, but that's really all I am seeing.
Drafted 4 corners in his time, no upgrade so far. Drafted 3 safeties, no upgrade. 2 DTs, no upgrade.
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Tedc
Hardheaded
I haven't read this whole thing so, excuse me if I repeat something but I feel that a coach has to use the scemes/plans that fit the personnel best. Doing ANYTHING else is suicide for the coach.
A new coach has what he inherits and needs to do what is needed to win with what he has. If a coach has four years and he STILL doesn't have the right personnel, see ya!
A new coach has what he inherits and needs to do what is needed to win with what he has. If a coach has four years and he STILL doesn't have the right personnel, see ya!
As far as we know, anyway. But those were still Kubiak's guys. You can't tell me Casserly got 4 hits in one draft after 5 YEARS of misses (save AJ).
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
You are aware that there's other ways to build a team besides the draft, right?
Lots of free agents have come and gone in the time since "Smithiak" took over. Plenty of them were DB's.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Mike Brown, UFA, Chicago Bears
Brian Dawkins, UFA, Philadelphia Eagles
Dawan Landry, RFA, Baltimore Ravens
Jermaine Phillips, UFA, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Oshiomogho Atogwe, UFA, St Louis Rams
Tyron Brackenridge, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs
Mike Brown, UFA, Chicago Bears
Phillip Buchanon, UFA, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Jabari Greer, UFA, Buffalo Bills
Rodney Harrison, UFA, New England Patriots
Kelvin Hayden, UFA, Indianapolis Colts
Renaldo Hill, UFA, Miami Dolphins
Daven Holly, UFA, Cleveland Browns
Sean Jones, UFA, Cleveland Browns
Bryant McFadden, UFA, Pittsburgh Steelers
R.W. McQuarters, UFA, New York Giants
Lawyer Milloy, UFA, Atlanta Falcons
Deltha O'Neal, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Jarrad Page, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs
Jermaine Phillips, UFA, Tampa Bay Bucs
Allen Rossum, UFA, San Francisco 49ers
Darren Sharper, UFA, Darren Sharper
Texaninlild
Veteran
You know I actually think we are flying around the ball better and hitting harder, but many times we are no where near the ball. So is the hitting harder from better players. Probably, yes. Who is responsible for the mental breakdowns? Probably coaching first and then players. Right now they remind of the kid from Father of the Bride who had the bucket on his head and kept running into walls.
Mike Brown, UFA, Chicago Bears
Brian Dawkins, UFA, Philadelphia Eagles
Dawan Landry, RFA, Baltimore Ravens
Jermaine Phillips, UFA, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Oshiomogho Atogwe, UFA, St Louis Rams
Tyron Brackenridge, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs
Mike Brown, UFA, Chicago Bears
Phillip Buchanon, UFA, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Jabari Greer, UFA, Buffalo Bills
Rodney Harrison, UFA, New England Patriots
Kelvin Hayden, UFA, Indianapolis Colts
Renaldo Hill, UFA, Miami Dolphins
Daven Holly, UFA, Cleveland Browns
Sean Jones, UFA, Cleveland Browns
Bryant McFadden, UFA, Pittsburgh Steelers
R.W. McQuarters, UFA, New York Giants
Lawyer Milloy, UFA, Atlanta Falcons
Deltha O'Neal, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Jarrad Page, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs
Jermaine Phillips, UFA, Tampa Bay Bucs
Allen Rossum, UFA, San Francisco 49ers
Darren Sharper, UFA, Darren Sharper
And how many of those are worth a damn? And of THOSE, how many were interested in coming to this team? Just because you pursue a FA doesn't mean they're interested. And that's not always about money. It could be about location, family, coaches, business ventures. To lure a player away from those intangibles requires overpaying. Who on that list is worth overpaying?
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
steve slaton and dom davis were both top tier backs. We've rostered 2. 0 starting caliber safeties. Your screaming for the wrong thing.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He works closely with Kubiak on who he selects via the draft & FA. If he's at fault then kubiak is at fault as well & both need to go.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I seem to recall at one time that Richard Smith remarked that there was not enough talent to play anything other than a read and react scheme. Or maybe it was something like we didn't have the talent to cover the blitzing schemes because there was not enough pressure on the QB.
Maybe he was on to something.
Maybe he was on to something.
playa465
Veteran
People out of position to start a play is unacceptable...DeMeco has to realize his role is also to ensure everyone is good to go before every play he is on the field...once the the formation is set, he has to be the lead eyes on the defensive side. Back to the thread, I think its 70% coaching and 20% players. The coaches must instill discipline and mental toughness in the players, this will allow them to be better prepared. The players must own up and perform the basics (tackling and keeping assignments). These guys are making alot of money and I would hope have some sort of pride in their profession, with that talk is cheap and they HAVE to step their game up. The last 10% is management, if we have the coaching and the schemes but if the players are not right for what they were brought in to do then that's a boo boo on management. The question is which do you do, bring in a supposedly better coach for your talented underachieving players or do you get better players to fit what your current coach wants to do.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Runner, what the hell is up with that avatar? A picture of someone's feet?
That's not just someone - that's ME!
Goldensilence
hipster elite
way to throw the baby out with the bath water. Did Bill ever suggest over paying any of them?
How many are worth a damn? If you don't at least think the defense gets a significant upgrade by picking up Brian Dawkins... then you're either really chugging the kool aide on Don. Barber(or related) or just brain dead.
Atgotwe was tagged by St. Louis fwiw worth. Mike Brown...signed by KC...of course. Landry is a RFA but, I would've liked to see an offer at least made. Perhaps if we make that offer Ravens opt to say ok..and keep Leonhard instead because he'd be cheaper. Hell why not make Leonhard an offer?
Shoot me Lawyer Milloy signed by the Seahawks Sept 5th.
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