No Problem W/ The Line

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by fresno8, Jan 2, 2005.

  1. fresno8

    fresno8 Veteran

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    I'm so sick of people saying give the line time. We've drafted guys and signed guys. People say we switched to the zone blocking give them time. It's been a year now and in the last game the line was the worst it's been all year and one of the worst perfromances in franchise history. Absolutely unacceptable. This line is pathetic at pass blocking and mediocre run blocking. Davis made every yard today (and alot of them in JAX). He always had to get away from someone behind the line of scrimmage to get his yards. Anyone who says they need time is full of it and is kidding themselves. Changes need to be made on this line, it's killing the growth of our 3 great young players. DD has won me over and I've always been sold on AJ and Carr
    (Even the QB's on the worst teams have more time than Carr)

    Line
    year 1 76 sacks
    year 2 36 sacks
    year 3 49 & counting
    This isn't good progress, it's unacceptable

    D.Carr
    2002 16 16 444 233 52.5 2592 5.84 81 9 15 76/411 31 5 62.8
    2003 12 11 295 167 56.6 2013 6.82 78 9 13 15/90 22 5 69.5
    2004 15 15 441 270 61.2 3417 7.75 69 15 14 43/273 47 6 83.5
    Good progress

    D.Davis
    2003 Houston Texans 14 10 238 1031 4.3 51 8 5 47
    2004 Houston Texans 14 14 285 1085 3.8 44 12 5 50
    Good progress

    A.Johnson
    2003 Houston Texans 16 16 66 976 14.8 46 4 14 4 45
    2004 Houston Texans 15 15 77 1129 14.7 54 6 18 3 53
    Good progress
     
  2. supertankman

    supertankman Rookie

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    I could not agree more!!! Sucs ***
     
  3. Texans Pride

    Texans Pride Hall of Fame

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    I think we have stunted the growth of David Carr due to the offensive line. We threw him into the starting line up his first year and he hit the ground 76 time. The last two years have been better, but still no where it needs to be.

    I think Carr being thrown around so much has made him uncomfortable in the pocket (the theoretical pocket anyway), he rushes his decisions, and doesn't let the play develop (when he actually has time for it to develop.

    They always say putting a QB in as a rookie is either a hit or a miss, I believe is has caused some irreversible damage, and it is a miss.
     
  4. Wolf

    Wolf 100% Texan

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    I am curious to see how Wand fared his rookie season compared to Pitts' rookie season at LT..

    just wondering if there is anything statwise anywhere.(sacks given up,penalties,pancakes etc.)
     
  5. fresno8

    fresno8 Veteran

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    glad you guys agree, some people around here think all the line needs is time. Maybe today will have changed their minds. I try to stay positive, but the line is just to frustrating for me to stay positive about. Once we have a solid line we will be very good. Carr showed his courage and toughness today and DD showed he can be elusive and powerful. The overall grades for the year on offense are

    QB: B needs more consistent leadership, better audibles, touch on short pass
    RB: B slow start, got healthy looked good, needs to improve durability, (Wells solid back up), Davis improved fumble problems as year went on.
    WR: A for AJ, B- for rest of the group. Need another playmaker, Gaffney, Armstrong are solid in slots.
    TE: C-, no dominant blocker or receiving threat, need an upgrade here, or healthy Joppru
    OL- F, worst in the league, needs help.
     
  6. edo783

    edo783 Site Contributor

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    Someone posted it a few days ago. Up to this game he gave up fewer sacks (15 v 11 I think) and a LOT fewer penalties (15+ v 4 if I remember correctly).
     
  7. fresno8

    fresno8 Veteran

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    Texans Pride, the coaches might get us into the playoffs but never will win a game in the playoffs if they don't chamge or be replaced and the line flat out sucks. Carr has been freak'n abused. I hope he can recover because he can be great. And yes Carr needs to pull the trigger just to hope to make things happen
     
  8. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    We changed 4 of the 6 line positions coming into this year. Don't look for wholesale changes.
     


  9. edo783

    edo783 Site Contributor

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    I am not sure the TE's get a C-. A "D -, maybe. QB, started out a solid "A" and wound up the later half of the season a "C" at best. All the sacks have taken a SERIOUSE toll on Carr's mental game. If we can get him SOLID protection right away next year and maintain it, he may wind up being "OK" in the future, if not, I suspect we have ruined a good QB. DD will be a solid RB and good overall producer, just not sure we can reasonably expect him to play 16 games. However, at over 220 pound, he is NOT a small back, just shorter than some.
     
  10. fresno8

    fresno8 Veteran

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    I know there probably won't be wholesale changes, but they suck, maybe our scouts and GM's have made some mistakes. There has got to be some changes made. 50 sacks, even if you cut that in half next year that's still not great. Favre has been sacked 14 times this year. While I'd love to see them at 25 sacks next year it's not likely w/ the personel we have. Carr is being ruined one sack/ or hit at a time.
     
  11. Lucky

    Lucky Moderator

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    I'll be surprised if the Texans don't have 3 new starters on the O-line next year, counting the TE position.

    Wait, replace "surprised" with "disappointed".
     
  12. AndreJ

    AndreJ All Pro

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    As much as I would like to see it I don't think our O-Line is going to change at all. I think the coaches are going to try and work with who they have and try to improve.
     
  13. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    I seriously doubt that we replace 3 of the 5. I can see one or perhaps two at the most....but the majority? No way. Not going to happen.
     
  14. Blake

    Blake MMQB

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    I place some blame on the line. I place some blame on Carr. I think he holds on to the ball too long. Snap, drop back, look, fire. I dont care if you fire out of bounds because nobody was open. Just get the ball out of your hands.
     
  15. fresno8

    fresno8 Veteran

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    There's no way we replace 3 of 5, but some talent still needs to be brought in to either groom or push the guys ahead of them, or replace them. I'm a huge Carr fan, but he does have tendencies to hold onto the ball to long, he has a strong enough arm to chuck it deep and out of bounds instead of taking a sack. However many times he's being hit while he's dropping back.
     
  16. BWPaint

    BWPaint Rookie

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    Earlier this week I posted about the OLine....and GOT HAMMERED!

    Now what do you have to say?

    CLEVELAND ATE US ALIVE...my GOD People!!!!

    That had to be the worst NFL *** whipping I have seen since Cincinnati beat our brains in. And for those that want respect from the media...you can forget it now...

    This OLine is an embarrasement!!!

    If something is not done we will be stuck in Oiler land forever...

    For all you that hammered me earlier this week, stats mean nothing, waiting to grow means nothing.....this issue has been around since the frist draft and NOTHING!!!!

    I rest MY CASE! this line is HORRIBLE...all the way across it, not just the left side...but across it!!!
     
  17. Hervoyel

    Hervoyel The Right Track

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    The line will be given time. That's not something any of us can affect and I believe at least that it's something that must happen. They have played poorly this season. You won't get many people saying otherwise and I think it's safe to say that anyone who claims the line played well this year doesn't know what they're looking at.

    It doesn't change anything though. They'll still get time and they still should get time. The individual players are NFL caliber linemen. None of them (even my own personal complaint generator Steve McKinney) are sub-par players. There are no journeyman linemen starting for us this season (I hold that McKinney is bottom of the barrel as a center but he's still in the barrel technically).

    The line's duties can be broken down into two distinct phases. We're all familiar with those. Pass protection and run blocking are what I'm talking about. Elements of one of those have no effect on the other, while some elements do effect the other.

    In run blocking I cannot find a reason to say that they have not improved. They aren't where they need to be, or where they will be given more time but the running game has improved over the last half of the season. I had hoped it would improve sooner but it didn't. Obviously the change is more complex than I had assumed. Over the last half though our team has run the ball more effectively.

    Pass protection has of course been a step backwards from 2003. Much like the improvement of the run blocking over the second half of the season nobody can deny that the pass protection has been poor this year. The numbers do not lie and we've seen the pressure that David Carr has been facing. It's non-stop and comes even when we are running the ball well. Other teams know they can get to our quarterback regardless of the situation and they also know that they don't need to bring help to do it.

    I suspect that there were simply too many changes to our line this season for the players to digest. New players, new positions, and a new running scheme all combined to make them less effective.

    Seth Wand, first time starter at what is almost universally regarded as the most important position on the line. Add to that the fact that he's playing next to a guy playing guard for the first time in his life and that everything he learned about run blocking in his rookie year went out the window.

    Chester Pitts, first season to ever play guard in his life after making a pretty reasonable adjustment to playing LT in the NFL. Add to that the fact that he's playing next to a first time starter on his left and Steve McKinney on his right. Also everthing Chester Pitts learned about run blocking on this team went out the window.

    Steve McKinney, On top of being Steve McKinney he was playing with a new person on his left again and of course like everyone else he started new with the run blocking scheme.

    Zack Weigert, playing with Steve McKinney on his left and a new person on his right and learning a new run blocking scheme.

    Todd Wade, New to the team and like everybody else learning the new run blocking scheme while also fighting injuries this season.

    Making this many changes at one time is the culprit here. Most teams in most years are at worst adding a new lineman to a group that's already worked together in a system for some time. Usually the new player is coming in to a system he's been a backup in. When we brought Brown in to play for Weigert or when we brought Spears in to cover Wade's spot they were guys who were learning the system just like the starters around them.

    They need more time. McKinney of course needs to go back to guard and in his place we need a center who can hold the middle but overall they need time. That's it. You can get as mad as you wish about it guys but it's all about time right now and the Texans are going to give it to them as they should.
     
  18. Lucky

    Lucky Moderator

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    What's the likelihood of McKinney (entering his 8th season) and Wiegert (entering his 11th season) improving by next season? They're as "good" as they're going to get. Pitts was in his 1st season as a guard, but he still has problems with the faster DTs. After 3 seasons, stunts remain a mystery to Chester. The case can be made that Wand can take the next step as a LT. His run blocking certainly improved by the last part of the season. Of course if Wand doesn't make substantial progress as a pass protector, that's another year wasted without a LT the Texans can count on.

    I know it's a "progress". I know the Texans, as a whole, have improved. But right now, the Texans are putting out a bad product. And that will continue until this O-line gets fixed.
     
  19. Anishin

    Anishin Rookie

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    The O line does seem to have regressed, last year they seemed to really be pulling it together at times.
     
  20. fresno8

    fresno8 Veteran

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    There's no excuse for this line. I have never seen a line this bad at any level. Just think if Drew Bledsoe were the quarter back he would have been sacked 80 times this year and close to 100 in year one. Carr has great escape abilities and has saved the line from further embarassment. Not only that when he does throw he gets killed. If I were Carr I would never want to speak to those guys. McKinney and Weigert are getting old and are average at best, Wade is average and I don't know what to think of Pitts and Wand I hope they improve, but I just don't see it they're below average. This whole give it time does nothing for the present, they're ruining Carr and are a freak'n embarrassment and no one can change my mind about it.
     

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