KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by Texans_Chick, May 7, 2010.

  1. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,279
    Likes Received:
    1,064
  2. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    16,205
    Likes Received:
    1,156
    Location:
    Straight Outta Austin
    The Joyner stuff tickles the Geek in me. I have not bothered to look, but on point #2 I would be interested to see if YoY stats for our defense on Big Plays and Red Zone efficiency went up with the down tick in rushing attempts.

    IIRC, last year we were doing well on three and outs which was an encouraging stat.
     
  3. GP

    GP Go Texans!

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    17,747
    Likes Received:
    1,573
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    I don't care much for thoughtful analysis. Not really my strength.

    Can we please get back to the business of wild speculation and uninformed opinions?

    Seriously, though: I enjoyed reading your post. Well done!

    Antonio Smith has the highest percentage for winning the battle against the offensive lineman in front of him. And Okoye's lagging in that stat category. Seems to line up with the board's overall speculative impression that Smith was doing a pretty good job (even though he wasn't racking up sacks) and Okoye was not.

    So perhaps Smithiak feels they can force teams to get into have-to-pass mode, as you mentioned in your post, which then makes our defense reliant upon pass rush & pass coverage. Seems logical enough.
     
  4. infantrycak

    infantrycak Mod. Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    54,917
    Likes Received:
    2,605
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I am more than a little dubious on their stats on double teams. Conventional set with 5 OLmen and 4 DLmen someone is getting doubled teamed each play and that is without accounting for a TE. The Texans had 953 defensive plays last year. He has Cody and Okoye facing a total of 75 double teams. Somehow I doubt Williams, Smith and Zgonina faced 872 double teams. Again not even accounting for a TE participating in a 2nd double team on a play.
     
  5. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,279
    Likes Received:
    1,064
    If you really want to geek with some fun numbers, go to TeamRankings.com. I get lots of ideas from that just noodling around with the numbers and pairing them with my eyeball view of games.

    That site shows a big improvement in defensive red zone score average per game.
     
    Honoring Earl 34 likes this.
  6. Honoring Earl 34

    Honoring Earl 34 Hey Koolaid

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    19,719
    Likes Received:
    1,326
    Location:
    Houston
    Well ... I've taken it upon myself to unlock the DT mystery . :cow:

    First it helps if they have the magical 70 point or above workout score .

    35 reps bench
    30 inch vertical
    9 ft broad jump
    = 74

    Second is that you need a 1.70 or less in the 10 yd split .

    Third is you need a motor .

    Now the tricky part is , if you don't have the motor , 1 and 2 don't matter . Of course this is a general statement and not 100% accurate but it would improve your chances IMMO .
     
  7. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    15,785
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Location:
    Boston
    Why do you doubt that?

    On running plays, I doubt they'd double team on every defensive snap. A lot of lineman will immediately move up to the next level and try and block a linebacker.

    On passing plays, if I was playing the Texans, there are only 2 defensive lineman I would ever double team: Williams and Smith.
     
  8. The1ApplePie

    The1ApplePie Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    10,055
    Likes Received:
    550
    And the fourth part is being drafted over Darrell Revis and Patrick Willis
     


  9. dalemurphy

    dalemurphy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    6,124
    Likes Received:
    662
    Location:
    Austin
    I bought Joyner's book after 2004. Among other things, he predicted that Kyle Boller and David Carr were going to be the two next great QBs. Not Kidding! I really liked his material until it consistently led to poor conclusions.
     
  10. Honoring Earl 34

    Honoring Earl 34 Hey Koolaid

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    19,719
    Likes Received:
    1,326
    Location:
    Houston
    Don't get stuck on a subject . I'm talking in general since they started posting numbers from workouts and the combine .
     
  11. BullNation4Life

    BullNation4Life Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    3,315
    Likes Received:
    279
    Location:
    Cypress, Tx
    Haven't read the article, but couldn't double teams also count with a RB chipping or blocking in the backfield? If a tackle is getting beat but a RB steps up and helps, wouldn't that be a double team.
     
  12. Ole Miss Texan

    Ole Miss Texan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    8,693
    Likes Received:
    685
    Oh man, this stuff gets interesting. gtexan... if only we knew a statitician that could help us out. Make a call up to cambridge, we've got a thesis idea! lol

    I've found conflicting number of plays against the Texans. 974 and 944 from nfl.com and 953 from cak... I'm gonna go with 950 for simplicity purposes.

    950 snaps, Okoye/Cody account for 75 double teams. We're assuming there is a double team on every play. If we boil it down to just Mario and Antonio as getting those doubles that is 875 double teams for the season; 54 per game... or 27 double teams for each in each game. So at 59 snaps per game, Mario and Smith were each doubled about half the time? They play the majority of all the snaps, so another way to think about it is that they are, on average, double teamed on half their plays? This also doesn't account for any times Zgonina, Deljuan, Barwin are in the game so they will bring their avg. down slightly but not a lot... still above 25 doubles per game on average I would think.

    I don't know what to think of that. It seems high but I guess it could be close? This also assumes that there is in fact a double on every play, some plays there might be a LB or S coming up... or the OL may go to the 2nd level withough blocking the DL so, really I doubt there is a double team on every play. I don't even know what to think anymore. :boogereater:
     
  13. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    15,785
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Location:
    Boston
    Yup, so you've got:

    Subs that take double teams (Barwin, Bulman, Okam, etc)
    Screens where the DL are released (no double teams there)
    Runs in which OL immediately move to the next level
    Safeties and Linebackers who blitz getting blocked by an available OL
    Pass/run plays where one OL blocks no one (as performed by our OL sometimes)

    Zgonina, Smith, and Williams were our 3 highest rated defensive lineman according to that other site.

    Its not inconceivable that the numbers for Okoye and Cody were correct.

    I see what icak is getting at though. If you simply watch the games, Williams rushes from the outside a lot. Its basically impossible to double team an edge rusher
     
  14. GP

    GP Go Texans!

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    17,747
    Likes Received:
    1,573
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    Fixed it for ya'...

    We have a 4 OL set, not 5.
     
  15. Ole Miss Texan

    Ole Miss Texan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    8,693
    Likes Received:
    685
    As were Jamarcus Russell, Jamaal Anderson, Ted Ginn Jr.... and Adam Carriker was just traded to the Redskins (Rams moved up 28 spots in the 5th and down 3 in the 7th)! Okoye looks like a Pro Bowler compared to those guys.. LOL
     
  16. infantrycak

    infantrycak Mod. Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    54,917
    Likes Received:
    2,605
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I disagree that on any significant number of plays a OLmen clears the DL clean and is not counted as blocking. In addition TEs frequently block which would lead to two double teams on a play and that is a lot more common than OLmen clearing the DL clean.

    I wouldn't count subsequent blocks as being double teamed but don't know if Joyner did.

    Weird on the numbers. I thought I went to NFL.com but I see 974 there now. Anyhoo...

    Good breakdown and yes it shows it is theoretically possible. Of course it would belie some of the assertions around here that Mario or Smith rarely command a double team since one of them would be getting it on basically every play.

    As someone noted as well, edge rushers such as Mario when he wants to and Barwin are often very difficult to double team - particularly unless you want to get the TE involved which again would bring up the numbers.

    Safety and corner blitzes are mainly to the outside and picked up by a RB. Yes there are LB blitzes up the middle but they are mainly picked up as a 2nd block after somebody (often on a double team) releases their block of a DLmen.
     
  17. IDEXAN

    IDEXAN Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,815
    Likes Received:
    225
    Location:
    Houston
    If the Texans wanted a space-eater, they had a great chance to grab one in Dan Williams who surprisingly was still on the Board for them, so I wonder, were they that desperate to draft a corner in the first-round or did they just not like Willams very much ? We'll never know I suppose.
     
  18. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,279
    Likes Received:
    1,064
    A lot of teams needing DT passed on Williams.
     
  19. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,279
    Likes Received:
    1,064
    Actually, Carr had a pretty good 2004 until they played Denver and teams realized that he was worthless against Cover-2. Look back at the numbers. Then for a lot of reasons, the team fell apart because the defense got old and gone and couldn't keep it together for the conservative brand of ball they played, and the offense was a mish-mash of philosophies that didn't work.
     
  20. Texan_Bill

    Texan_Bill Subscribed Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2003
    Messages:
    48,659
    Likes Received:
    2,082
    Location:
    Houston. Mediocrity Lives Here!!
    I'm reading it now but wanted to let you know LZ gave you some mad props on this earlier this morning...
     

Share This Page