Jokers and pressure packages

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by leebigeztx, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. leebigeztx

    leebigeztx Hall of Fame

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    The idea of jokers and pressure packages have really taken off in recent years. Since defenders can't lay a hand on receivers down the field, defensive coaches are dialing up the pressure at a high rate. Ravens, Steelers, Philly, Giants, Cardinals are just to name a few. A few of the teams are 3-4 so the pressure comes from the edges mostly, but teams like philly and ny giants do it with the zone dogs and attacking protections. Both are effective, but how can houston emulate the ideas and schemes that will allow them more consistent pressure.

    Bush is a student of ryan,jim johnson, and even pendergras. He understand pressures and attacking protections of the offense. Its hard to squeeze blood from a grapefruit, but the texans do have some options.

    The joker. The joker is a guy that can rush effectively from a 2 or 3 point stand. Those jokers can can sugar the concept of what they want to do. Arizona had Labboy. Berry, Smith, Dansby to name a few. That's how they created pressure and confusion with the offensive line. The o-line didn't know who was coming because all of those guys were standing up, then at the last minute they would have guys git in a 3pt stance and come after the qb.

    Another way is the zone dog/5 man pressure scheme. To run this, your slb has to be a natural pass rusher. The texans blitzed more than what people gave them credit for last year, but diles nor greenwood couldn't get to the qb. Peterson, Gocong, and Kiwi are guys who made the transformation to slb so when its 3rd and long or whent the dc dial up a pressure front, they can beat a back or tight end.

    Which brings me to this, I doubt they will sign enough players to have the joker packages, but the zone dog/5 man pressure could be attained easier. I think a guy that fits that slb that can rush the passer in Conner Barwin from Univ of Cincy. He's a ex te so he undestands the route tree and coverage. His 1st yr as a de tis season he had 11 sacks and 16 tackles for loss. He's big and can run so he should be able to matchup with te's. He's also a guy that if the texans want to run a 3-4 look, he should be able to lineup olb on the te side,diles and ryans inside and adibi on the weakside with mario and smith playing 5 technique and okoye on the nose slanting the front. I would like to see the texans also add some of those vets that can be 3rd guys like spicer,berry or even a guy like Taylor, but he'll probably end up in new england.

    Consistent pressure other than mario is a crucial needs for this team to take the next step. They need to figure if the jim johnson way is the best or the clancy perdergras way with jokers is. Either way, both are effective, but the texans needs to get personel that can do it.
     
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  2. Malloy

    Malloy Site Contributor

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    Interesting post, thanks!
     
  3. nero THE zero

    nero THE zero Hall of Fame

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    Why don't you think we have the personnel to run the "joker" stuff?

    I know they have experimented with Mario in a 2 point stance. They have also done it with Nading. Could you elaborate on the package and what personnel is needed exactly to run it?
     
  4. The Pencil Neck

    The Pencil Neck Subscribed Contributor

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    This is a lot of what we were doing under Smith. Some DL in 2 point stances. DL dropping back into coverage while bringing linebackers or corners. With Adibi on the field, it worked a bit better because he had the speed. With Barber on the field, it worked a bit better than with Ferguson or Demps.

    But the problem with Smith is that he didn't implement it well. He implemented the concepts but he didn't disguise well enough. He didn't overload well enough; when our guys overloaded, they got in each other's way and ended up blocking each other.

    We even shifted from a 4-3 to a 3-4 at times.

    Hopefully, Bush will scheme better than Smith... and have better players to work with.
     
  5. mussop

    mussop Hall of Fame

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    So true!!!!
     
  6. spurstexanstros

    spurstexanstros Texans Rising

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    First off what is this blitz thing you refer to?

    Joker packages? wth????
    I dont care what the heck they do back there...as long as they can freaking STOP SOMEONE ON THIRD DOWN. They can have the POPE package for all I care. Heck it could work if the Pope was back there excommunicating the recievers if they caught the ball...maybe he can bless Petey and make him better...... he does work miracles right?????

    Bottom line stop teams on third down...and in some cases stop fat qbs from geting 4th and 8's and the Texans may win some games next year.
     
  7. TimeKiller

    TimeKiller Guest

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    I think Smith got into crazy schemes when they went dime or nickel packages, right? Cuz...from my very untrained eye...the base 4-3 was just it's normal sucktacular self for the most part.
     
  8. The Pencil Neck

    The Pencil Neck Subscribed Contributor

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    That's a good point. I thought they were doing them from the base package as well but it could have just been from the nickel and dime packages. I'll have to go back and look at a couple of games.
     


  9. leebigeztx

    leebigeztx Hall of Fame

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    Blitzing with guys who don't know how to get to the qb is different than blitzing guys that do. I saw a lot more blitzes than what people thought, but the blitzer was getting caught in the wash because of the poor angle taken. Diles is a slb, but he's never played with his hand in the dirt. He's also not good in coverage which opens windows.

    Back to the jokers. Look at a team like NE. Brusci, Thomas, Vrabel, and even Colvin were all 4-3 rush ends in college. During their prime, u didn't know who was coming and sice they were use to dip and rip or just beating linemen. Now in the 4-3 front, the joker guy should be the slb for 5 man pressures. Shaun Thompson is a joker on the texans. That slb has to be good enough in coverage so u don't have to sub him out, but also a good enough rusher that he can beat a te or half a tackle. Kiwinueka,peterson, and gocong are the jokers in 4-3. If the texans can add a joker type either via the draft or free agency, I could actualy see them generating a lot of presure on passing downs. I could actually see a 3-4 1 gap scheme on 3rd downs. Mario,adibi,and ryans on the right side, bullman,robinson,or okam on the nose, okoye, barwin or thoompson and smith on the left side. Now they can 5 or 6 man pressure and 4 deep in the secondary. Even in that scenerio, they can flex baack to thhe 4-3. Look at how many pass rushers the giants can have on the field at once.
     
  10. TimeKiller

    TimeKiller Guest

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    Hehehe...maybe they were just too hidden?!? I'm not really an x and o type, just more observant than the usual armchair guys so as much as I would like to know the real ins and outs...I just don't. Maybe the nickel/dime stuff was just too obvious?
     
  11. Polo

    Polo Guest

    Diles is actually pretty good in covereage.
     
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  12. BSofA04

    BSofA04 Hall of Fame

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    Signed,
    Peyton Manning
     
  13. dalemurphy

    dalemurphy Hall of Fame

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    I think we're going to see a dramatic difference in the defense as a hole and certainly in our coverage in the middle of the field with the new defensive staff. Thinking back to the Pittsburgh game last season, it was indicative of our problems on defense for years. We were getting good pressure on Rothlisburger all day but he was able to consistently find wide open receivers in the middle of the field. Clearly, it was evident to Rothlisburger and the receivers exactly where the holes in the coverage would be- play after play, and it was easily exploited. Then, the Indy game last year we saw Diles play underneath man coverage on D.Clark and came away with a pick. I realized then that it was the first time I've seen man coverage by our LBs downfield on a TE. It clearly surprised Manning as well.

    The point is that Frank Bush will mix up the coverages more and allow for more agressive playmaking by these guys and I think the difference will be clear right away! I realize we won't become a dominate defense overnight but it will be nice to dictate tempo and playcalling in games for once. I bet we double our forced turnovers this season!
     
  14. whiskeyrbl

    whiskeyrbl Guest

    Interesting analysis.
     
  15. TimeKiller

    TimeKiller Guest

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    So I think most here generally regard Ryans the best LB on our team, who is 2nd? Diles? I think he's a good player but then there's Adibi who has played pretty well too. I don't know who to call 2 and who to call 3 but it's okay because I think they're both good players. If we got a guy like Matthews or Cushing who plays and rushes well why not try a 3-4 look on passing situations? Mario would still be Mario, it's not like you would do it everytime anyway so he would still be just a big ol' hammer. Cochran, Bulman, Okoye, Robinson could all play the other 2 spots. As long as Dunta is back back (not just back) Bennett still had decent numbers if spotty play, Reeves too and the 3rd round question Molden to answer, E-Willie played well and we'll probably draft another safety to replace Ferguson so the DBs look filled in as well....they should be able to cover for the rush.

    I'm seeing less holes and more options on this D.
     
  16. DBCooper

    DBCooper Outlaw

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    If we do not make the playoffs this year, theRealJokers package is going to be under some serious pressure.
     
  17. Rozelle

    Rozelle Rookie

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    Arizona's defense also likes to snatch-blitz any offensive player who's asked to check-release out on the snap of the ball. When a running back, tight end or wide receiver is responsible for picking up a blitzer before releasing on a pass route, the Cardinals' jokers often blitz that player and prevent a release. They don't try to beat the blocker to the quarterback but instead "snatch" him, and before you know it, the offense has just two receivers out on patterns.
    from Pat Kirwan / NFL.com

    http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/story?id=09000d5d80e61f3b&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  18. barrett

    barrett Hall of Fame

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    I think you need to preface this with the fact that you "hope" this is what will happen. I will remain decidedly cautious until week 1. I'm very hopeful that we will see a substantial change in our defensive philosophy but I will wait and see. Nothing has really changed on our defense other than the DB coach, the Line coach and the D coordinator as well as a SSDE. I hope what you suggest is the case but I've heard the "aggressive" and "attacking" terms to describe our defense before.

    I'll wait and see.
     
  19. steelbtexan

    steelbtexan Hall of Fame

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    Great post

    Smithiak are going to have to add the all-around SAM & another pass rusher to play this type of defense.

    Barwin is the no.1 SAM on my board for the reasons you stated. Ithnk we can trade down to about 20-25 & get him, but I think he's a value @ 15.

    In my dream senario we would draft
    RD1 Barwin
    RD2 S.Smith
    RD3 Sidbury pass rusher with long arms ran a 4.64 40, he would allow us to have a DL that looks like this MW, AO, A. Smith & Sidbury plus have the versatility @ LB with Barwin, Adibi & DR to either blitz or are good in coverage. I would do whatever it took to add these 3 players including trading up if I had to, they are perfect for the defense that Bush wants to play. It would allow the Texans to play the kind of defense the Cardinals played last year.
     
  20. threetoedpete

    threetoedpete Hall of Fame

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    The only things wrong with the Pittsburg game was Hines Ward cut our young DBs to pieces. Dick Lebeau was reading our mail and filling the route tree with his line backers. And finally on a team with a supect o-line....who was expossed through out the year....we got no pressure. I think a lot is going to depend on how much we blitz. Especailly if were waiting on pass rushers untill the second day of the draft.
     

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