John McClain to the Defense of Carr !

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by nunusguy, Nov 23, 2005.

  1. nunusguy

    nunusguy Hall of Fame

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    "Is Carr playing well? No. Has he regressed? Yes. Is he dazed and confused? Yes. Does he have a lot to learn? Of course. Should the Texans pay him the $8 million bonus before the last game — Super Bowl XL on Feb. 5 — to keep him through the 2008 season? Yes."
    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3479527.html
    ***********************************************
    I dunno.....I really don't know what to think of the Carr situation ?
    But here's McClain's take on the dilemma.
     
  2. WWJD

    WWJD Hall of Fame

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    I'm torn on the whole paying the bonus or not.

    On the one hand if you pay him it's almost as though you're rewarding him in some weird way for playing very poorly.

    On the other hand if you don't he goes elsewhere and could possibly be a good QB for another team. There is no doubt in my mind somebody would pick him up.

    I just don't know.

    Rich Lord of 610 says it's a done deal though and David will get his bonus.
     
  3. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    The team would be dumb not to kick in the 2 year option since it's going to take two full years to get this thing rebuilt. Carr is no longer a franchise QB and is just another QB trying to win a job next year, so we need to seek out another QB and have some HONEST competition for the most important job on the field. What would be really dumb is to resign him and tell the back up that he has no chance to start. Bring in another credible QB for cripes sakes. This is the only position on the team that doesn't have honest competition.
     
  4. rmartin65

    rmartin65 I'm Score

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    I think Carr can be a very good quarterback.
     
  5. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    I am ok with the article, he gave me my out to spare me fom this diatribe:
    "Now, be honest, please. If, after last season, you thought Carr should be shipped out of town on the first Amtrak to anywhere because you foresaw what was going to happen to him this season, then you have every right to crow. You are a personnel expert, indeed."

    The statement is to harsh for my taste, but I have never believed Carr was a top tier QB coming out of FSU.
     
  6. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    What really irks me here is that a true leader would have told the coaches to get a clue a long time ago. Carr could have said, "I am the face of the franchise and you are not utilizing my strengths." Which begs the question has the bonus been communicated to him a long time ago? Is there an assurance that he will be placed as starting QB for the next 2 to 3 years? It reeks of blind loyalty and future salary cap H-E-double toothpick.

    I find it odd that someone would take a beating for four years and go through this type of season without saying a word. As a former competitor I would never have allowed this to happen without making a stand for myself and the direction of the team that I lead.
     
  7. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    It's hard to be critical of others when you can't do your job very well yourself.
     
  8. WWJD

    WWJD Hall of Fame

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    Somebody posted on another thread I read some days ago that David was asked about being a leader on the team and he didnt' consider himself a leader. I'm paraphrasing because it's been awhile since I read it but I thought at the time that his comments were kind of odd. I always thought he was a leader..don't know why but those first couple of years he seemed to be. Maybe I was seeing things that weren't there.
     
  9. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    He may have been the best of the lot, but not necssairly the right pick at #1 for Houston.
     
  10. Corrosion

    Corrosion Idealist

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    For once I agree with McLane .... did I really just type that ? Guess I did .

    Anyhow the offensive problems are pretty much a direct result of what McLane said , Putting people in a system that DOESNT use their strengths . Add the fact that Carr has NEVER had even so much as a decent O-line to protect him what can you expect of the guy ?

    Carr is no Pey-Me-A-Ton Manning nor is he Joe Montana .... I think he's more like a Dan Marino or Bret Favre type of QB ... Both of whom took / take a lot of sacks and throw a lot of INT's but make a lot more big plays .... The offenses their teams use play to the strengths of their QB .

    David Carr isnt going to beat you like Steve Young completing 15 passes in a row on one drive . Carr and his best reciever are both best suited to a big play offense ....something like Green Bay has run in the past . But until they get an O-line who can give him time to throw and a second reciever to take some heat off of AJ .... He isnt gonna be very successful .

    Where to start ? I think the Interior of the O-line (LG and Center) and a TE would be a fantastic place to start while moving Chester Pitts back to LT . Another playmaker to help AJ would seal the deal ..... anyone say Reggie Bush ? (NEVER thought I'd say that myself).

    Simply put Carr has never been put in a position to succeed ... Before he's shipped outa town on the night train I'd like to see a few more pieces around him
     
  11. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    I do not want to turn this into another thread, but it would have been Julius Peppers. Do I think that the choice was bad at the time when we took Carr, no. Just not the best solution as I was not sold that Carr's ability would scale out the way his contrct would.
     
  12. touttail

    touttail All Pro

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    True-True-True
    Carr has always been the man. He has never had to compete with anyone for a starting job. Maybe some competetion would light a fire in him!

    bobby 119C:brickwall
     
  13. touttail

    touttail All Pro

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    He better change his way of thinking, because the QB is definitely the LEADER of the team and has to take charge of the team. Carr really hasn't done this!

    bobby 119C:brickwall
     
  14. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    I will have to disagree with you as Peppers is a total freak who makes plays and can disrupt the other sides scheme. In a nut shell the Offense has to make sure Peppers is accounted for on every play. Do you think that any defense has ever had to scheme against Carr? This goes to the heart of my debate on intangibles that DC makes no one around him better.
     
  15. Lucky

    Lucky Moderator

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    Give our coaching staff a little credit, please. I'm certain they could have ruined Peppers if given the chance.
     
  16. GP

    GP Go Texans!

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    First off, let's take a look at the landscape of the NFL in terms of QB.

    You've got a team like Pittsburgh who will not let a guy like Maddox or Batch, both of which are not top tier QBs, go to other teams such as the Jets who had to bring back Testaverde of all people.

    The truth is that NFL QBs are hard to come by. Volek wanted to go to the Jets when Pennington went down this year, but the Titans were having NONE of that. Teams refuse to let go of even their 2nd and 3rd string QBs because the crop is just not deep enough. The lone exception would be Dilfer, or maybe Feeley. Dilfer won a Super Bowl and was let go. Feeley was supposed to be the Dolphins next big thing.

    My point is that even though we are seeing regression with Carr this year, stop for a second and take off the hater glasses...look forward to a whole new scenario next year. Carr needs next year, and possibly the next after that, just like Capers needed this season after a few semi-satisfying seasons the past hree years ago to show us what he's really got. A whole host of teams would willingly give Carr a chance considering what they have at the QB position thus far. I know it's been rumored that a lot of NFL teams are saying CARR is the problem, but I don't buy it and I've covered the reasons why in that post a long time ago.

    Capers' ultimate end destination, after this season, is the sidewalk. In my opinion, it would be going overboard to chunk a guy like Carr at the same time. Even if it's only for the fact that we'll always wonder if it was Carr or Capers who crashed this ship. I know that's not a priority to find out, but it's just another reason in my opinion to let Capers and staff go...but keep the kid and see if he can deliver.

    I am very disgruntled toward Carr this year. Don't get me wrong. But I would like to see him get another year or two at the most. And HOPEFULLY a new coach will allow true competition at QB during camp and preseason. That has been a major contributing factor to Carr's decline IMO.
     
  17. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    All you have to do is watch a few games and it's pretty easy to see that Peppers dominates people enough to make teams have to double him. Saying Peppers is a system guy is silly. Peppers changes the way you want to do business as an offense because you often have to dedicate an extra player to him. Some quarterbacks do this as well since you don't have to defense Trent Dilfer like you have to defense Peyton Manning. While Carr has every physical tool in the book he is a slow decision maker and takes too long to readjust to his secondary read. It's possible that Carr matures late like another small school guy in Rich Gannon. Rich was the kind of QB that was a good runner and bloomed late as a passer. Rich seemed to have a better feel for the game though. Carr has had 50+ starts to improve his intangibles and nobody can argue that he has much intuitive feel for this game. Only Texans homers (and Carr only fans who follow him from Fresno St) would consider Carr the better pick at this point. I’d take a 'Rich Gannon late bloomer level qb' if Carr can get there, but we all know what Peppers can do and nobody is waiting for him to prove it.
     
  18. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    I spent some time around Peppers when he was on the UNC Basketball team and I would not think that he would be the type of guy that would allow this pack of misfits we call a staff to take away his strengths and future earning power.

    In my opinion, Carr is what we call in the basketball world soft.
     
  19. nunusguy

    nunusguy Hall of Fame

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    Exactly. And that system employs a base 4-3 defense where he is the proto type DE. That's why I doubt that Peppers was ever an option for a team who's HC was a 3-4 guy, especially as the #1 overall. That would be like drafting a talented, strong armed QB with your #1 overall to use in a ball-control, run oriented offense. Dang, I think that's one of the points McClain was making in this article.
     
  20. Hervoyel

    Hervoyel The Right Track

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    I felt like McClain's column was particularly, and probably intentionally dense. He made some good points but he also tossed out some very stupid takes.

    His point about the Texans beating Jacksonville and Chicago last year and how that related to where the three teams are doing this year was just dumb. For one thing the Jaguars have a terrible time with the Texans and always have. That doesn't mean anything when the Texans play the other 30 teams in the league.

    The Bears were starting Chad Hutchinson at QB last year and had major injuries on their defense but still managed to get to David Carr enough to cause him to come unglued at his offensive line. The only reason the Texans won that game was that Chicago had nothing on offense. The Bears were lucky to get the 5 points they had out of that group.

    More than anything none of this has a thing to do with how David Carr is playing this year. Going down John McClain's list of questions I find myself answering them much as he did but drawing very different conclusions.

    "Is Carr playing well?" No. I agree with him there.

    "Has he regressed?" Yes. I agree with him here as well.

    "Is he dazed and confused?" Yes. Again I don't think this is in question.

    "Does he have a lot to learn?" Wait a second. What?

    How come this guy who's started for four years has a "lot to learn"? What's he been doing since he arrived here in 2002? More important than that what have his coaches been doing with him? Does Carlson Palmer have a lot to learn? He's been starting a lot less time than David Carr and he seems to be thriving. How about Drew Brees? Does he have a lot to learn John? He's been in the league one more year but he's light years ahead of David Carr. Byron Leftwich got a lot to learn John? How about Ben Rothlisberger?

    "Should the Texans pay him the $8 million bonus before the last game to keep him through 2008?" No, of course not. Are you out of your mind John?

    You can spend less and keep him for two more years while the jury is still out on whether he's ever going to be more than a guy who looks a little better than Joey Harrington. Why in the world would you pay him an $8 million bonus when you have a list of things to fix that's a mile long and he's proven exactly nothing up to this point in his career?

    John also harps on David Carr's "career bests" from 11 months ago but fails to mention that these career bests are less than spectacular numbers. They're not bad but ask yourself this question, "Are they $8 million bonus good?" The answer is obvious. No they are not.

    After last season we all (with few exceptions) felt that the Cleveland game was an abberration and the Texans were on the rise. McClain's entire "You didn't think he sucked last year" angle is weak and written to cater to people who think that you could take David Carr out of the equation, plug Matt Leinhart into it, and you would win 10 games. Frankly I find it a little insulting.

    The reasons we thought the Texans were on the rise involved more than just David Carr, just like the reasons many of us are hesitant about giving him $8 million without question involve more than just "We hate David Carr". It's possible to not hate David Carr but still think that giving him that bonus without forcing him to earn the starting job is a bad idea. I'm a Texans fan, not a David Carr fan. I want what's best for the Texans, not just their quarterback.

    I agree with Vinny's suggestion above regarding competition at the QB position. If we're not going to have that then I prefer to see them pass on David Carr's option and want to see Tony Banks or Dave Ragone starting next year (and likely in 2007 as well). Best of all possible worlds is we start over with a competent head coach and staff and get all of this sorted out.
     

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