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In case you were starting to doubt him
- Thread starter TexansSeminole
- Start date
R
real
Guest
thunderkyss said:
I understand what you are saying....But personally I am not a stat guy...I tend to watch players and judge whether or not said player is good, great, or horrible...No doubt that with the right system, supposrting cast, and staying injury free he can put up some helluva stats...BUT I don't think DD is a great back...He's expendable...He doesn't do any one thing extremely well, he doesn't have blazing speed, he can't consistently run through defenders...And the stat about his first three years in the leauge compared to other great backs, IMO is misleading...Don't get me wrong I like DD alot, but I just don't think he has the skill set to be labled a "great" back...Maybe if he had a little durability he could make up for what he lacks in skill and ability...But IMO, he will never be a solid back that we can count on for the whole season...for multiple seasons...
texan279 said:
Ok........ try to follow me.... Your argument, that 1000 yards in one year is hardly anything to brag about in the modern era...... That anyone can, and everyone has done it..... paraphrasing a little bit.
So, I compare DD to the guys you think are great, in the modern era.... guys who are DD's Peers..... guys in the game today. Their first three years was something like 6 years ago at the most.
And you bring me Fran Tarkenton from 1961?? What are you smoking?? If this were 1979, it wouldn't be a big deal to hang on to Carr for a few more years.... it would be the norm for quarterbacks.
Even if this were 1995, and we drafted Carr as a project..... we'd sit him on the bench for two years, and bring him along slowly...... had we picked him #1 overall..... that wouldn't be the case.
How many starting QBs have come and gone since 2002??
texan279 said:
Where are you getting stats alone from??
DD posted those numbers on a bad team, none of them were easy. He faught for each and every one of them. The man that he has the heart, and the will of a champion...... but because he doesn't have breakaway speed, or "moves" he'll never be special??
whatever...
xtruroyaltyx said:
This get's me going the most.... in the same three years, he's started as many games, if not more than Priest Holmes, Jamaal Lewis, Fred Taylor, Stephen Davis, Edgerin James, Duece McCallister, and Rikki Williams.
Both Ronnie Brown, and Caddilac Williams aren't looking to good right now from a durability standpoint either.
R
real
Guest
thunderkyss said:
Heart and desire go a long way....But not long enough of a way to make him great...He is good....He hasn't proven to be great, and I don't see how you can argue that...We can argue potential all day long, You can look at stats and compare his first three years, but IMO that really doesn't do the players justice...You have to look at Games played, rush attemptsthe situations that they ran in...there are just too many factors to compare numbers alone......And personally I don't think DD has performed much better than Carr considering all factors...IMO Carr actually has more potential to be great than does DD...He certainly has more talent...And we are calling DD great, and he doesn't even block well...in fact his pass protection is poor...I am not sure what screams great about DD...I hope he proves me wrong, but I seriously doubt it...
R
real
Guest
thunderkyss said:
You are probably right about the amount of games that he has played compared to those other players...But all of those players mentioned are physically more talented than DD....They bring more to the games in which they play...My point was DD will have to do something to make up for his lack of physical prowess to be labled great..i.e stay healthy, stay consistent...IMO, He hasn't done anything that anyother starting back cant or hasn't done...so I think i reserve the right to hold on to that greatness tag until he proves otherwise...
R
real
Guest
texan279 said:
Thanks for the info...kinda blows a hole through his point
xtruroyaltyx said:
again, not saying that he is great...... but that he will be.
texan279 said:
The point is I can find QBs with stats equal to, or better than Carr's, who are looking for a starting job in 2006.... some have no chance.... and I don't have to go back 6 years.
texan279 said:
We can't judge Carr as a QB, because the Offensive line has been pitiful to this point blocking....... But we know now, that DD sucks blocking behind a piss poor blocking OLine..... yeah..... Okay
texan279 said:
And Priest Holmes missed 9....... what are you saying??
xtruroyaltyx said:
Not really...... as my point is and always has been that it is normal for running backs to experience health issues in their first three years..... that's no reason to call DD injury prone.
what did you think my point was??
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
xtruroyaltyx said:
How do u know that it is "misleading"?
So far it hasnt led to anything except this offseason. We will see this season.
R
real
Guest
TexansSeminole said:
I didn't say i know it was misleading, becauses I haven't taken the time to actually look at the statistics for myself, nor will I take the time to do so...I am just making a general statement about stats period...Stats can be misleading...such as a guy taking one shot his whole career and making it...he shoots 100%...does that make him better than some of the all time greats....Just using that as a wacky example to show you cant always use stats to determine "greatness" as far as players are concerned....I pose a question to who ever thinks DD is a great back or has the potential to do so...Who is the Greatest running back of all time...??? Emmit, because of his record...or barry, or brown, or earl, peyton...ect.....???
texan279
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
I'd like you to name a few QB's who had equal or better stats than Carr in his first 4 season who are looking for starting jobs right now. I could name several QB's who have played worse than Carr and who are starting QB's right now. And as far as Priest Holmes, I didn't say a word about him, you mentioned Williams and Brown and I responded to that.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
xtruroyaltyx said:
Depends on what type of running back.
R
real
Guest
........Year G GS Att Yds
DD.....2003 14 10 238 1031
.........2004 15 15 302 1188
.........2005 11 11 230 976
Edge....1999 16 16 369 1553
............2000 16 16 387 1709
............2001 6 6 151 662
Barber.... 1997 12 6 136 511
.............1998 16 4 52 166
.............1999 16 1 62 258
courtesy of nfl.com
First three years of their careers...
Edge Played in less games but still amassed more yardage than DD...and his first two seasons he started every game...sat out ten games his third year...but was only a mere 300 yards behind him....IMHO, in no way shape form or fashion does DD =, almost=, some of the "great" running backs that the NFL has brought to us...in fact IMO, it does some of the "great" running backs an injustice to be compared or thought on as the same level with such a run of the mill average RB...
DD.....2003 14 10 238 1031
.........2004 15 15 302 1188
.........2005 11 11 230 976
Edge....1999 16 16 369 1553
............2000 16 16 387 1709
............2001 6 6 151 662
Barber.... 1997 12 6 136 511
.............1998 16 4 52 166
.............1999 16 1 62 258
courtesy of nfl.com
First three years of their careers...
Edge Played in less games but still amassed more yardage than DD...and his first two seasons he started every game...sat out ten games his third year...but was only a mere 300 yards behind him....IMHO, in no way shape form or fashion does DD =, almost=, some of the "great" running backs that the NFL has brought to us...in fact IMO, it does some of the "great" running backs an injustice to be compared or thought on as the same level with such a run of the mill average RB...
South Texan
Waterboy
HOU-TEX said:Earl "freakin" Cambell baby!!!
He may not have been the greatest ever, but he sure was fun to watch:
QB takes the snap and hands off to Earl
9 to 11 defenders pile on Earl
The pile gains 5 to 15 yards.
some of the "great" running backs that the NFL has brought to us...in fact IMO, it does some of the "great" running backs an injustice to be compared or thought on as the same level with such a run of the mill average RB...[/QUOTE]
That clip of Earl is greatness. Earl Campbell is the only "great" running back Houston's franchises has ever had. Sure we have had plenty of good backs like Rozier, Pinkett, Lo White, even Gary Brown had a good season and a half (not sure if we count Eddie George) but none of these will ever be in the Hall of Fame, can't remember if they even made the Pro Bowl. DD is a good back but he will never make the Pro Bowl or anything. So I concur that he is not a great or elite back.
Also, this may seem like a peculiar comment but: All great RB's have that signature highlight run(s) or a big game that demonstrated their greatness. DD has neither.
That clip of Earl is greatness. Earl Campbell is the only "great" running back Houston's franchises has ever had. Sure we have had plenty of good backs like Rozier, Pinkett, Lo White, even Gary Brown had a good season and a half (not sure if we count Eddie George) but none of these will ever be in the Hall of Fame, can't remember if they even made the Pro Bowl. DD is a good back but he will never make the Pro Bowl or anything. So I concur that he is not a great or elite back.
Also, this may seem like a peculiar comment but: All great RB's have that signature highlight run(s) or a big game that demonstrated their greatness. DD has neither.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
trane said:
Ha, ima laugh at you guys when DD makes the ProBowl. Doubting a star on ur OWN team.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
South Texan said:He may not have been the greatest ever, but he sure was fun to watch:
QB takes the snap and hands off to Earl
9 to 11 defenders pile on Earl
The pile gains 5 to 15 yards.
Oh man, he was outstanding! I eventually started feeling sorry for the guys that tried tackling him. He was a punisher! Sadly, all that pounding eventually caught up to him though.
texan279 said:
I mention Cadillac & Ronnie Brown being on the road to "injury proned-ness" and you mention DD missing 5 games to their 2 & 1 games missed...... I pointed out the great Priest Holmes missed 9 games last year......... now, all I'm saying here, is that if you believe DD to be a worse option at RB because he missed more games than Cadillac & Brown, then that must mean that Priest Holmes is a worse option than DD.
That it is your argument, that doesn't hold water....
QBs with equal or better stats than Car in their first 4 years, that aren't gauranteed Starters in 2006:
Aaron Brooks, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Charlie Batch, Jeff Blake, Kerry Collins, Jay Fiedler, Jeff Garcia, Brian Griese,
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
xtruroyaltyx said:
I think DD has the potential to be a great back.
The Greatest Running Back of All Time? Jim Brown, hands down. The man was a monster. (Though I am personally partial to Earl... but that's just pure homerism.)
titan hater
Waterboy
The Pencil Neck said:
I agree...Jim Brown was the greatest...
1. Jim Brown
2. Barry Sanders (simply because he would have smoked the rest of the field if he would have continued to play)
3. Walter
4. Earl (he might not have played a long time but WOW...he could hurt anyone trying to tackle him)
5. Gale (another who would have been even better if not for injury)
6. Not sure. Maybe Emmitt Smith. But...Hell, I could have run for a thousand yards behind that monster of a line. This also pains me cause I hate the crackwagon as much as the Tacks...
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Off on the apples and oranges comparisons again.
Jay Fiedler didn't even attempt a pass in his 1st four years and he didn't become a starter until his 7th year.
Jeff Blake didn't start for 2.5 years.
Aaron Brooks didn't start until almost his 3rd year.
Kerry Collins did not have better stats than Carr over his 1st 4 years--Collins/Carr--9408/10624 yds, 51.5/57.8 comp. %, 6.14/6.53 ypa, 64.5/73.7 QB rating, 51/48 TD's, 64/53 INT's. The only "better" stat Collins had was 3 extra TD's and that came at the expense of 9 extra INT's.
Similarly Joey Harrington has lower completion %, yards, ypa and QB rating.
Capers philosophy on offense
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Wolf said:
Ya, true, but i dont think that applies for the scheme we ran before.
infantrycak said:
True.... but Fiedler can still be just as affective a starter today as Carr has been...... and judging by their past performance, I'd opine, that Fiedler may be more successful.
Jeff Blake was still benched after putting up Carr type numbers on a bad team, that had a history of failure.
And Aaron Brooks sat on his butt for a year, then only started 5 games in one of his 7 seasons...... But he's thrown for almost twice as many yards as David Carr..... (19,156-10,624= 8,532 yards.........) Over the next three years, David has to average over 2,800 yards to better Brooks' 7 year production.... Would you like to make a little wager??
& I said equal or better than..... Collins numbers, as well as Harrington's IMHO are close enough to be equal to....... if you want to bring up ints, I'll bring up sacks, and yards lost.... because all those guys have more wins than Carr over the same 4 year period, despite throwing interceptions, where Carr has taken his team out of position to win.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
INT's are no longer stats?--whatever.
Is bringing up sacks and yards lost supposed to be a threat?
Let's say Carr is responsible over his career for 29%--that would leave 148 sacks on the team. Assuming none of Collins and Harrington's sacks are on them--a silly assumption but hey to be generous--Collins was sacked 100 times and Harrington 77 times in their 1st 4 years. As for Carr's 29% and lost yards, that would at most be 355 yds (1226 yds * 29%--undoubtedly way to high since many of Carr's sacks were due to running out of bounds at or just behind the line of scrimmage vs. normal sacks which often lose 5-10 yds). But hmmm net contribution Carr 685 yds 71 1st downs, Collins 330 yds 28 1st downs, Harrington 345 yds 19 1st downs.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
And also, people don't notice our pass attempts much when Carr is sacked.Wolf said:it became 50/50 when they let Carr run the show in arizona
Wolf
100% Texan
seriously.. or pass/rush attempts is suprisingly even (or close to),but all we remember is the playcalling that is predictable
and yes the sacks and or david scambling out is what we remember
audible.... we know is run left
3rd and long..draw
perception of our offense and how stale it is is perceived as run..run..pass..punt
but in reality they did mix it up..just a shame that everyone knew what was coming
and yes the sacks and or david scambling out is what we remember
audible.... we know is run left
3rd and long..draw
perception of our offense and how stale it is is perceived as run..run..pass..punt
but in reality they did mix it up..just a shame that everyone knew what was coming
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Well, i think that if in the 4th quarter, when we are down by a touchdown or two, running the ball isn't the best idea. Even Capers could figure that out.
infantrycak said:
My heads spinning pretty hard here........ what is it that you are trying to say??
texan279 said:
So do you think they are injury prone or not??
texan279
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
I have never said any of the three are injury prone. I just said Davis missed more games last season than Williams and Brown combined, and that Williams and Brown are both participating in offseason programs while Davis has been recovering from arthriscopic surgery for the last seven months.
texan279 said:
there had to be a point in there somewhere......
texan279
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
You said this earlier in the thread...
And I responded by saying DD missed more games than both of those guys put together last season and that Williams and Brown are participating in offseason programs while DD is on his seventh month of rehabbing his knee. I guess my point is I don't see Brown or Williams having durability issues...
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
You implied in the post I was quoting that there was something about sacks and yards lost which would be better stats for Collins and Harrington than Carr. My post has the stats and nothing about them is better or even for Collins or Harrington.