If you run the Option in the NFL...

[thunderkyss]

What's to stop the other team for laying the wood on the QB? I always thought that was the reason no one ran the option in the NFL. Because it makes your QB fair game, especially if he crosses the LOS. he's just a blocker then.

Even if it's against the rules, and you get penalized... why not take the 15 yards, but make that QB look for you next time he runs that play?

 

[dc_txtech]

That's what Texas Tech did under Ruffin McNeil's defense, it worked great. Teams might get a couple of extra yards on that 1 play but they never seemed to go back to it. I believe I mentioned it in a post before the 2nd Titans game last year...

I don't think it's against the rules either, as long as it's a clean shot. But I'm sure their is a reason teams don't do it that I'm just not thinking about.

 

[thunderkyss]

I mentioned it in a post before the 2nd Titans game last year...

I don't think it's against the rules either, as long as it's a clean shot. But I'm sure their is a reason teams don't do it that I'm just not thinking about.

That's why I bring it up. I watched a bit of the Titans game, and it looks like it will be a staple of their offense.

 

[dc_txtech]

Yeah, I assumed that's what got you thinking about it. I would love to see Cush or Pollard just totally disregard the pitch and knock the piss out of VY. Of course you better be sure there is somebody behind you that you trust to make the tackle. Chris Johnson is a pretty dangerous dude.

 

[JB]

I think part if it is the mindsets that are drilled into the defensive players. When the qb gets rid of the ball it is illegal to hit him. I know it is different when he runs the option and pitches the ball, but adjusting to that will take a while for both the players and refs to adjust to. You know that if someone were to blast Young right after he pitched the ball, there will be a pf penalty called. Rightly so or not.

 

[thunderkyss]

I think part if it is the mindsets that are drilled into the defensive players. When the qb gets rid of the ball it is illegal to hit him. I know it is different when he runs the option and pitches the ball, but adjusting to that will take a while for both the players and refs to adjust to. You know that if someone were to blast Young right after he pitched the ball, there will be a pf penalty called. Rightly so or not.

Even still, so what. Even if we give up a touchdown, That will take that out of the game plan for the rest of the day. At the very least, Vince is going to be looking to his right (towards the defender) and not to his left (towards the runner), and he'll mess up the pitch.

I know it isn't smart, but I would take two PF penalties to show them how serious I am about taking him out of the game. They can do what they will with that. If he isn't sliding feet first, whether he has the ball or not, if he is on the wrong side of the LOS, I want him to know I got something for him.

 

[dc_txtech]

I think part if it is the mindsets that are drilled into the defensive players. When the qb gets rid of the ball it is illegal to hit him. I know it is different when he runs the option and pitches the ball, but adjusting to that will take a while for both the players and refs to adjust to. You know that if someone were to blast Young right after he pitched the ball, there will be a pf penalty called. Rightly so or not.

You might be right about a penalty being called unjustly, but I take 15 yards to take the play out of their book. Plus you have a chance of putting their QB on the sidelines for the rest of the game (not injured, just too ashamed to wear his pee pants back into the game)

I really don't think it would be that hard to instill into the defenders mindsets. When we started doing it at TTech, it was an overnight deal. One day it was like "oh snap, he never had any intention of playing the pitch". Then we did it every time after that. Didn't take long for teams to stop running the option.

 

[JB]

Even still, so what. Even if we give up a touchdown, That will take that out of the game plan for the rest of the day. At the very least, Vince is going to be looking to his right (towards the defender) and not to his left (towards the runner), and he'll mess up the pitch.

I know it isn't smart, but I would take two PF penalties to show them how serious I am about taking him out of the game. They can do what they will with that. If he isn't sliding feet first, whether he has the ball or not, if he is on the wrong side of the LOS, I want him to know I got something for him.

I agree with you, and I don't care which side of the LOS it is on. Hit him hard everytime. But I was talking about why they are not, not why they should not.

 

[b0ng]

I didn't watch any of the Titans game, but if they are planning on using that option for a good portion of their offense I see VY getting drilled a lot. Was VY doing any blocking for the RB after he pitched the ball, or was he getting out of the way? If he's trying to block a little bit he's going to get smushed a lot by really big NFL players.

The only thing that bugs me is our defense does not react well to deception plays like that, and it could lead to some embarrassment.

 

[Blazing Arrow]

After the pitch Young gets out of the play. If you intentionally go after a player that is out of the play you will get a 15 and if it looks like intent to injure you will most likely be booted from the game. Probably fined and maybe be suspended for a game or two depending on how blatant it was.

If the LB stays in I would not want to blitz the rest of the game if I were him. That is how knees "accidently" get rolled by O-linemen.

 

[b0ng]

After the pitch Young gets out of the play. If you intentionally go after a player that is out of the play you will get a 15 and if it looks like intent to injure you will most likely be booted from the game. Probably fined and maybe be suspended for a game or two depending on how blatant it was.

If the LB stays in I would not want to blitz the rest of the game if I were him. That is how knees "accidently" get rolled by O-linemen.

That's what I figured. The only hard part about that is since the option stuff is so close to the LOS a defender could come flying in and lay some wood on the QB immediately after a shovel or pitch which might not really draw a penalty flag if there's no way he could stop himself before the ball left the QB's hands.

I think I'll be really surprised if the Titans option is used more than the Dolphins wildcat in 2008 (That's when they started doing that right?). Again though, the option does open VY up to more hits than your standard pocket passing.

 

[Blazing Arrow]

That's what I figured. The only hard part about that is since the option stuff is so close to the LOS a defender could come flying in and lay some wood on the QB immediately after a shovel or pitch which might not really draw a penalty flag if there's no way he could stop himself before the ball left the QB's hands.

I think I'll be really surprised if the Titans option is used more than the Dolphins wildcat in 2008 (That's when they started doing that right?). Again though, the option does open VY up to more hits than your standard pocket passing.

I would agree it defiantly opens him up more. He does a very good job of getting the ball out as he draws players in but before they have a chance to really get lined up on him. Then it falls under the defenseless player rule. With the way the NFL protects QBs I could also see the refs being very defensive on the hit too. Young isn't a small guy either. The Titans run the play usually 3 or 4 times a game and have plays that look similar but are designed pass plays that make it harder to read.

 

[THE NFL]

Thunder.. I also watched the Titans game and they didnt run an option play 1 time. I dont know where you get that it is going to be a staple of the offense. VY threw the ball more than they ran it.

The other problems with going after an opposing teams QB is fines and suspensions from the NFL. Goodell will not tolerate it. This is a QB league, period.

The last reason you dont want to get into that mess is Matt Schaub. He would then be the target. If you want your QB hammered go right ahead. Its kinda like throwing at batters in MLB. You can do it, but they are going to hit you or one of your guys. Its a dangerous game. The Texans are done without Matt.


Thunderkyss????? I dont understand the point of this thread. If you cant beat a team straight up, hurt the QB? Really?

 

[Rey]

I think the Titans can get away with it due to a few things:

VY is big and can take a good lick
VY ran it some in college and has a good feel for it
Refs are going to protect qb's
Chris Johnson is dangerous. If you focus too much on VY Johnson will eat you alive.

 

[thunderkyss]

Thunder.. I also watched the Titans game and they didnt run an option play 1 time. I dont know where you get that it is going to be a staple of the offense. VY threw the ball more than they ran it.

Not once huh?

Maybe I was dreaming.

Thunderkyss????? I dont understand the point of this thread. If you cant beat a team straight up, hurt the QB? Really?

It's not about hurting the QB. There are many, many Option QBs in College, that never get looked at (as a QB) in the pros. I've asked the question, "Why not?" & I'm always told because the option won't work in the NFL, the QB would get killed.

I'm not talking about doing anything illegal, if it's a running play, and he's on the wrong side of the LOS, he is a blocker & fair game. Usually, he doesn't pitch the ball, unless there is someone there getting ready to tackle him. I'm just saying that guy should continue through, and take out the blocker.

& I don't necessarily want to take him out of the game, that's the dude from TxTech (dc_txtech). I just want him to think about Pollard, or Cushing every time he approaches the LOS.

I guarantee you'll see more than once a game in the regular season, especially if they think we're too soft to smack him.

 

[THE NFL]

Tell when they ran the option... tell me. Which play? VY was in the game 2 series. When did he run an option play. But you said it would be a staple of the offense. Like Schaub to Johnson is a staple of the Texans offense. What did the Titans do lastnite to make you believe the option would be a staple of the Titans offense.


You arent getting the point...There are unwritten rules in Pro Sports. Passed the line of scrimmage or not you dont blow up a QB who isnt involved in the play. You start doing that and people will start getting hurt on your team.

 

[dc_txtech]

Thunder.. I also watched the Titans game and they didnt run an option play 1 time. I dont know where you get that it is going to be a staple of the offense. VY threw the ball more than they ran it.

The other problems with going after an opposing teams QB is fines and suspensions from the NFL. Goodell will not tolerate it. This is a QB league, period.

The last reason you dont want to get into that mess is Matt Schaub. He would then be the target. If you want your QB hammered go right ahead. Its kinda like throwing at batters in MLB. You can do it, but they are going to hit you or one of your guys. Its a dangerous game. The Texans are done without Matt.


Thunderkyss????? I dont understand the point of this thread. If you cant beat a team straight up, hurt the QB? Really?

Nice rep bar, looks like your making friends quickly.

I never said we should put an illegal hit on any QB. When you run a QB option, the QB is then a rusher and is subject to being tackled. Are we supposed to tickle him to the ground if he decides not to pitch it?

My point is that when the LB (or whoever it happens to be) comes to make the play, instead of hesitating to see what the QB is going to do, he goes directly for the QB. If he can put a clean legal hit on the QB before he pitches the ball or as he pitches the ball, then he should hit him as hard as he can. If the QB makes the pitch well before the LB has a chance to hit him, then he then redirects and tries to tackle the RB.

 

[pbat488]

Tell when they ran the option... tell me. Which play? VY was in the game 2 series. When did he run an option play. But you said it would be a staple of the offense. Like Schaub to Johnson is a staple of the Texans offense. What did the Titans do lastnite to make you believe the option would be a staple of the Titans offense.


You arent getting the point...There are unwritten rules in Pro Sports. Passed the line of scrimmage or not you dont blow up a QB who isnt involved in the play. You start doing that and people will start getting hurt on your team.

No, apparently you aren't getting the point. He's not talking about hitting a defenseless QB; he's talking about blowing VY up before/during/immediately after he makes the pitch if they have the opportunity to do so. That way the next time they run that play VY isn't just thinking about the pitch to CJ, he's thinking about that ass whoopin' he's about to take from Pollard or Cush.

 

[dc_txtech]

& I don't necessarily want to take him out of the game, that's the dude from TxTech (dc_txtech). I just want him to think about Pollard, or Cushing every time he approaches the LOS.

I never meant to insinuate that we should purposefully try to take him out of the game. My point was that by running the option they are putting their QB in danger of being hit, and therefore increasing the chance he gets hurt.

With that said, I'm telling my defensive players to knock the hell out of him if they can get a "clean legal hit". And that doesn't go for just QB's, knock the piss out of anybody that you can make a "clean legal hit" on. Would you expect anything less?

 

[dc_txtech]

No, apparently you aren't getting the point. He's not talking about hitting a defenseless QB; he's talking about blowing VY up before/during/immediately after he makes the pitch if they have the opportunity to do so. That way the next time they run that play VY isn't just thinking about the pitch to CJ, he's thinking about that ass whoopin' he's about to take from Pollard or Cush.

Exactly. If we can get him thinking about the hit he's gonna take then he's going to pitch the ball earlier also, making the option play much less effective.

 

[THE NFL]

Blowing up VY is exactly what you are talking about. YOU even said take the penalty. Dont try and crawfish now. Hell, you even said hit him even if you give up a TD. That means its a message hit. You start sening messages to other teams and they will send some back. Matt Schaub is a hell of alot more fragile than VY. I would be very careful there. Roidboy and Pollard arent the only players in the NFL that can hit contrary to what you may believe.

Go ahead and put a target on VY. See how quick Fisher allows that.

 

[b0ng]

I would agree it defiantly opens him up more. He does a very good job of getting the ball out as he draws players in but before they have a chance to really get lined up on him. Then it falls under the defenseless player rule. With the way the NFL protects QBs I could also see the refs being very defensive on the hit too. Young isn't a small guy either. The Titans run the play usually 3 or 4 times a game and have plays that look similar but are designed pass plays that make it harder to read.

Well you kind of have to look at it like any other passing situation. You see a QB take a hard hit right after the ball leaves his hands and not get flagged a lot. The same thing is possible with the option, except that with the option there's not a traditional pocket of blockers for him to be behind. The crux of the play usually being really close to the LOS (Basically the QB looking like he's going to run then having a few choices of what he's going to do based on what the defense is giving him) you could easily see blitzing LB's come flying in with no ability to re-direct and just lay out a QB after a pitch/shovel/whatever. I mean it's not about intentionally hurting the QB, but at the same time a team like the Ravens aren't going to not take their shots on a QB trying to execute plays like that.

It's interesting as a wrinkle described above (3 or 4 plays a game), but as a "staple" I just don't see it happening unless VY really does a lot with it the few opportunities he's going to get. I would really doubt the Titans would run the option to draw penalty flags either (god I hope they wouldn't).

 

[Blazing Arrow]

You guys obviously do not watch enough Titans football to understand how the play develops. Young when he steps up if the safety draws in to stop him the ball is pitched out to Johnson and it then becomes a foot race with Johnson and usually the other safety. If the safety moves to cover Johnson it creates a hole that Young moves through and picks up his 10 or so yards.

There is usually a TE as a forward blocker to pick up the LB. After Young pitches he peals off the play. He does not move to block. It is not your typical college option play. Defenses have to respect Young's speed while watching Johnson. The main intent is to draw the secondary to Young then open up the sideline for Johnson. When the play breaks down Young usually slides.

 

[Rey]

You guys obviously do not watch enough Titans football to understand how the play develops. Young when he steps up if the safety draws in to stop him the ball is pitched out to Johnson and it then becomes a foot race with Johnson and usually the other safety. If the safety moves to cover Johnson it creates a hole that Young moves through and picks up his 10 or so yards.

There is usually a TE as a forward blocker to pick up the LB. After Young pitches he peals off the play. He does not move to block. It is not your typical college option play. Defenses have to respect Young's speed while watching Johnson. The main intent is to draw the secondary to Young then open up the sideline for Johnson. When the play breaks down Young usually slides.

The potential for Young to get the shyt knocked out of him is still there...

I understand that there are things that minimize the risk, but the reason QB's get hit on option plays is because they push the envelope. They push the envelope because they are trying to either draw attention away from the RB, or they are trying to get the yards themself.

If a QB is not pushing the envelope on the option then the odds that the play will succeed go down.

On the other hand, I can see a situation where the coaches are telling him to pitch it a little early if a defender commits to him and let the RB do the work. But to me that just means that the play will not be as successful as it could be, hence why you are probably saying it's not your typical college option. Just the threat of Young running has to make the defense atleast stay honest.

 

[dc_txtech]

Blowing up VY is exactly what you are talking about. YOU even said take the penalty. Dont try and crawfish now. Hell, you even said hit him even if you give up a TD. That means its a message hit. You start sening messages to other teams and they will send some back. Matt Schaub is a hell of alot more fragile than VY. I would be very careful there. Roidboy and Pollard arent the only players in the NFL that can hit contrary to what you may believe.

Go ahead and put a target on VY. See how quick Fisher allows that.

You might be right about a penalty being called unjustly, but I take 15 yards to take the play out of their book.

If it's a clean hit and the ref makes a bad call, there's nothing we can do about that. I wouldn't let a bad call affect my defensive playcalling going forward.

No, I never said we should give up a TD. As a matter of fact what I said was

Of course you better be sure there is somebody behind you that you trust to make the tackle. Chris Johnson is a pretty dangerous dude.

Reading comprehension fail but at least you got one thing right, yes I was talking about blowing up VY. When we play the Titans, I want to see our defense making hard clean tackles. Are you trying to argue that we shouldn't tackle VY hard because he might get hurt?

Who was it that said this?

Injuries happen in the NFL. If the Colts are injured and the Texans win.. GOOD! They should have been healthier. Thats not the Texans fault.

And thank you for totally disregarding my first post before beginning your diatribe.

That's what Texas Tech did under Ruffin McNeil's defense, it worked great. Teams might get a couple of extra yards on that 1 play but they never seemed to go back to it. I believe I mentioned it in a post before the 2nd Titans game last year...

I don't think it's against the rules either, as long as it's a clean shot. But I'm sure their is a reason teams don't do it that I'm just not thinking about.

 

[Blazing Arrow]

Well you kind of have to look at it like any other passing situation. You see a QB take a hard hit right after the ball leaves his hands and not get flagged a lot. The same thing is possible with the option, except that with the option there's not a traditional pocket of blockers for him to be behind. The crux of the play usually being really close to the LOS (Basically the QB looking like he's going to run then having a few choices of what he's going to do based on what the defense is giving him) you could easily see blitzing LB's come flying in with no ability to re-direct and just lay out a QB after a pitch/shovel/whatever. I mean it's not about intentionally hurting the QB, but at the same time a team like the Ravens aren't going to not take their shots on a QB trying to execute plays like that.

It's interesting as a wrinkle described above (3 or 4 plays a game), but as a "staple" I just don't see it happening unless VY really does a lot with it the few opportunities he's going to get. I would really doubt the Titans would run the option to draw penalty flags either (god I hope they wouldn't).

I get what you are saying but the blocking scheme on these type of plays is set to typically compensate for blitzers and in most cases it helps the play. If you check out the CJ's highlights from last season you see there are not to many that involve the screen because it was not used that much. But enough to keep the D honest and stick them on there assignments instead of aggressing on the ball carrier. It is almost like a hybrid screen play more then the option.

A better name for it would really be a delay screen but the O-line does not allow the D to charge threw the line. They set it up to look more like a roll out. The O-line moves like a roll out but they allow the outside linebacker through the line. The WR typically runs an oposite post to pull the CB to the middle of the field. Once the LB commits to Young that leaves Johnson isolated with a safety who has usually pulled up to block Youngs run lane.

I don't think anyone wants there S one on one with Johnson because he can blow by them. The only D that has really been fairly effect against it is zone but CB get trigger happy when they see Young coming at them which opens up Young.

Is there chance for Young to get lit up? Sure but the play usually gets the ball out of his hand before that could even happen.

 

[Rey]

I get what you are saying but the blocking scheme on these type of plays is set to typically compensate for blitzers and in most cases it helps the play. If you check out the CJ's highlights from last season you see there are not to many that involve the screen because it was not used that much. But enough to keep the D honest and stick them on there assignments instead of aggressing on the ball carrier. It is almost like a hybrid screen play more then the option.

A better name for it would really be a delay screen but the O-line does not allow the D to charge threw the line. They set it up to look more like a roll out. The O-line moves like a roll out but they allow the outside linebacker through the line. The WR typically runs an oposite post to pull the CB to the middle of the field. Once the LB commits to Young that leaves Johnson isolated with a safety who has usually pulled up to block Youngs run lane.

I don't think anyone wants there S one on one with Johnson because he can blow by them. The only D that has really been fairly effect against it is zone but CB get trigger happy when they see Young coming at them which opens up Young.

Is there chance for Young to get lit up? Sure but the play usually gets the ball out of his hand before that could even happen.

Sounds like the perfect play...Y'all should score almost everytime it's run...

 

[Blazing Arrow]

Another thing that the Titans use is the option fake. Young and CJ move like its an option play. As the D moves to conver the option CJ blows past his coverage Young back pedals and lobs it over the coverage.

 

[Blazing Arrow]

Sounds like the perfect play...Y'all should score almost everytime it's run...

Not sure if that is sarcasm or not but CJ scored I believe 2 times on it and between him and Young had several 15+ yard plays.

 

[thunderkyss]

I never meant to insinuate that we should purposefully try to take him out of the game. My point was that by running the option they are putting their QB in danger of being hit, and therefore increasing the chance he gets hurt.

With that said, I'm telling my defensive players to knock the hell out of him if they can get a "clean legal hit". And that doesn't go for just QB's, knock the piss out of anybody that you can make a "clean legal hit" on. Would you expect anything less?

I was just joking, I knew what you meant.

 

[thunderkyss]

Blowing up VY is exactly what you are talking about. YOU even said take the penalty. Dont try and crawfish now. Hell, you even said hit him even if you give up a TD. That means its a message hit. You start sening messages to other teams and they will send some back. Matt Schaub is a hell of alot more fragile than VY. I would be very careful there. Roidboy and Pollard arent the only players in the NFL that can hit contrary to what you may believe.

Go ahead and put a target on VY. See how quick Fisher allows that.

if you are talking about me, I was responding to a reply that said even if it was a legit hit, they would throw a flag, I said so what, take the penalty.

It's still a legit hit. They'll throw a flag, if it's one of the league darlings, or a QB. We can't worry about crap like that.

 

[dc_txtech]

I was just joking, I knew what you meant.

No worries man. I know I quoted you but I was more responding to The NFL guy. Sorry if that was confusing.

 

[Rey]

Not sure if that is sarcasm or not but CJ scored I believe 2 times on it and between him and Young had several 15+ yard plays.

definitely sarcasm.


QB unlikely to take big hit -- Check
Can be disguised -- Check
Goes for several yards a pop -- Check
Blockers put in the right position so that play can't be blown up -- Check

You are a tenn. fan and get to watch them often...What are some flaws of the option play...I've yet to see any mentioned.

 

[Blazing Arrow]

definitely sarcasm.


QB unlikely to take big hit -- Check
Can be disguised -- Check
Goes for several yards a pop -- Check
Blockers put in the right position so that play can't be blown up -- Check

You are a tenn. fan and get to watch them often...What are some flaws of the option play...I've yet to see any mentioned.

As with every comment made by a Texans fan you give the play no merit at all. Sure the play can break down and Young could get creamed. Which I said in another post. I mentioned that it is vulnerable to the zone if the CB can hold his zone. The safety can control the break but the play tries to push him into a one on one.

The play has broken down in the past but typically Young just slid keeping him out of harms way. If you are going to give 100 reasons why the play will not work don't be surprised when someone who has seen the play and how it develops every time it has been used by the Titans come back and give reason for its success.

 

[Rey]

As with every comment made by a Texans fan you give the play no merit at all.

No. I'm trying to have an honest debate about the play. I have given VY his props on the play and I have given the play itself some credit.

I think the Titans can get away with it due to a few things:

VY is big and can take a good lick
VY ran it some in college and has a good feel for it
Refs are going to protect qb's
Chris Johnson is dangerous. If you focus too much on VY Johnson will eat you alive.

Just the threat of Young running has to make the defense atleast stay honest.

If you are going to give 100 reasons why the play will not work don't be surprised when someone who has seen the play and how it develops every time it has been used by the Titans come back and give reason for its success.

I haven't given any reasons for why the play "won't work". I have given reasons for why I think Young can get the shyt knocked out of him on that play though.

Meanwhile, I'm reading your post and I get the impression of a super play where the QB is perfectly protected while intentionally drawing defenders to him. I'm just trying to discuss the play honestly and break it down...That's all...But you ignored the post I was trying to do that in.

The potential for Young to get the shyt knocked out of him is still there...

I understand that there are things that minimize the risk, but the reason QB's get hit on option plays is because they push the envelope. They push the envelope because they are trying to either draw attention away from the RB, or they are trying to get the yards themself.

If a QB is not pushing the envelope on the option then the odds that the play will succeed go down.
On the other hand, I can see a situation where the coaches are telling him to pitch it a little early if a defender commits to him and let the RB do the work. But to me that just means that the play will not be as successful as it could be, hence why you are probably saying it's not your typical college option. Just the threat of Young running has to make the defense atleast stay honest.

My point in this post was that the more young pushes to the point of attack the more the defense will have to come up honor the fact that he can keep it, which will also raise the potential that he will get hit.

If he is pitching it a little early before a defender actually commits to him then I don't think the play can be as successful as a typical option play. I have never seen them run it but from your desription it sounds more like a roll out pitch if Young is never getting hit. The impression I'm getting from your post here is that VY is running the option and has little to no chance of being hit (that's what the thread is about), and I just don't buy that/I'm not seeing that when I picture the play.