I still insist we have good talent

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by gtexan02, Oct 18, 2005.

  1. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    15,785
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Location:
    Boston
    I insist that we have talented players. Heck, we have some talented OL players, too. McKinney is a good LG, Pitts is a good LG, and could be an LT. Wade is a good run blocking RT, and Wiegert is a good RG. Unfortunately, Hogdon is too small to play center, and way too inexperienced. So what am I saying all of this for? In the upcoming draft we need to trade our 1st pick in the draft away for the 3rd or 4th pick, pick up an extra 2nd rounder or an extra 1st for next year, and draft the best LT in the draft. We then drop McKinney, and sign a proven center. We then start Rookie Pitts FA Wiegart Wade, and with good coaching, I promise you this line could perform very well. Look at Pittsburg, Grimm turned a bunch of no names into one of the best lines in the league. Look at Indy, that OL coach is famous, and he worked miracles. Manning hasnt been touched all season. The point Im trying to make is that there is no reason to spend more than our top pick on OL. With ANY FA acquisitions (and I odn't mean Riley type aditions--good players. And if we pick up a good, expensive LT from another team we wouldnt even have to use our 1st pick) we could turn our poor oline into above average.

    Then I believe we already are scheduled to have 2 2nd day choices, so I say we pick defense and TE. There is no longer a need to draft WR. With a legitimate TE and the more improved Gaffney, plus the maturing mathis, we could easily drop bradford and still have a decent receiving corps. PLUS, elite WRs become FAs every single season. Coles, Moss, TO, S. Moss, Burress, Mason, Muhammad, have all switched teams recently, and it wouldn't be hard for us to get someone of their caliber. Anyway, I think this is a coaching issue first and foremost. We have talented players. i STILL think Babin and Pburnt have capabilities. I mean, look at where Pburnt went from - Norv turner to Dom Capers---no wonder he looks burnt. With a take no crap from no one type motivational coach, we could have a good team!
     
  2. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    15,785
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Location:
    Boston
    I just thought of something scary. Lets say we do scrap the coaches and bring in some new guys. They seem some potential in our OL, and decide to coach it out of them instead of pick up new players. I can already hear it, "They just need time with the new coaches. ....gel...."

    ahh! I hope we pick up some good people!
     
  3. Texas

    Texas Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,030
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Clear Lake
    I disagree but you have a right to your opinion. However I beleive our O-Line is embarassing now and really dont do what they possibly could have done long ago. It's time for a new crew to come through and do what we have failed to pursue. However I do beleive that we have some good talent. Its Madden- if you throw a 95 offense with a 80 defense your average is still gonna be around 87. With our not so good Oline and our lack of Tight ends and defensive play makers. AJ, DD, Dunta,Carr and others that are talented dont look so special.
     
  4. El Tejano

    El Tejano Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2004
    Messages:
    9,936
    Likes Received:
    447
    I'm sorry but if Reggie Bush is available we still gotta get him. I say draft Linehart, and make people give us what we want.
     
  5. Porky

    Porky Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Messages:
    12,463
    Likes Received:
    988
    And I insist you are wrong. We are in the bottom 2-3 clubs in terms of raw talent. We aren't even close to the average NFL team. Take off the glasses. :texflag:
     
  6. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    21,847
    Likes Received:
    1,513
    People don't like to see it but Gary Walker is one of our best players and Babin did a fine job against the run last year...but as fans most of us seem glad Babin is out and want to push Walker out the door. Instead of wishing Walker was healthy we seem to want him gone.....well, our defense was never worse than it was Sunday without two solid run stoppers and I think that had a lot to do with how bad we have been defensively lately. People are so quick to hate on Walker and Casserly that nobody talks about losing two guys like this out of our front 7. If Walker was pretty like Carr he would probably get some love I figure. I know Babin won’t because everyone hates the trade….but we see what we have when those guys aren’t in the game.
     
  7. nunusguy

    nunusguy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,991
    Likes Received:
    244
    Location:
    Houston
    You have to understand this, one can be a fan of Babins (which I am) while
    not being a fan of the trade that brought him here (which I'm not). I hope
    that he suceeds, for the good of the team and the investmet we have in him
    and for the young man personally.
     
  8. infantrycak

    infantrycak Mod. Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    55,624
    Likes Received:
    2,695
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Walker also committed the crime of being injured. As soon as anyone is injured it is time to discard them as they are injury prone. Look at how people throw Payne in as injury prone when he has had one injury that has made him miss playing time while he has been a Texan.
     


  9. nunusguy

    nunusguy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,991
    Likes Received:
    244
    Location:
    Houston
    No matter how talented an employee is, if he's sick (or injured) from work a
    lot, he's of no value to his employer because in his absense he simply can't be productive. And I'm thinking Walker is out sick an awful lot ?
     
  10. touttail

    touttail All Pro

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Baytown
    I agree that this team has some talent. They have quit on the coaching staff!

    bobby 119C :brickwall
     
  11. The Mighty Texan

    The Mighty Texan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Burbank,CA
    Dumb Capers has done a GREAT job at destroying our team. We SUCK So bad I am wearing a paper bag over my head for the rest of the season! I only wish I did'nt cut holes in it...

    Man, I am so pissed about what those stupid coaches did to our team... We have sent away some great talent and kept the weakest and frailest. piss poor performance. Face it guys I don't expect one win this year! I am so disgusted by our performance, our play calling everything!!

    You know what I want? Dom Capers IN FRONT of the cameras. I want a press conference focusing on this horrable turn of events!!

    Sound off Fans... The Texan Fans want a solution. We want it NOW!!!!

    A Dom Capers press conference! WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO DOM?

    Explain Dom!! It starts and ends with YOU!!! Your the coach, right? Its your fault... bottom line dude!! David might as well come out with a gravestone on his head instead of a helmet for everytime he's buried in the backfield.

    Should we change your name to DUMB Capers... You let this happen! Stand up a take this challenge! or you will be fired! I want your head if you can't explain... and I don't want you to blame someone else... the whole team sucks!!!

    The Mighty Dissapointed Texan!!!!
     
  12. I wished it was that simple to say that our defense is bad because Walker and Babin are out. Then we could just say, wow these guys were awesome and our defense is suffering because they are not there. Too bad it's NOT like that. We've been blown out of every game except for 1. As much as some people want to ignore it, the changes in our defensive personnel in the off season has a lot to do with it. The loss of some of our veteran players during the off season only compounds the loss of Walker and Babin. Other than Coleman and Dunta, everyone else is new to setup.

    Man you are vicious with Carr, give it a little rest, we get it, you don't like Carr.
     
  13. beerlover

    beerlover Site Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2004
    Messages:
    12,984
    Likes Received:
    548
    this is a very underachieving team for whatever reason :confused: lack of dicipline, lack of talent, lack of execution, lack of wins :embarrass
     
  14. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    15,785
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Location:
    Boston
    The Power of Coaching:

    Player Like Tom Brady, Steve Foley, the entire Broncos D-Line, etc. all prove that with proper coaching, even an underachieving, seemingly busted player can do well. RIght now, its impossible to say whether the problem is Capers or the players. We can get rid of Capers, but we can't get rid of all the players. Lets hope its the former.
     
  15. TexanExile

    TexanExile A New Hope

    Joined:
    May 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    90
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Other than drafting an LT with the 1st pick, I just don't see it your way. This group of O-linemen is bad. Todd Overpade has regressed badly this year, and there are apparently no legitimate centers on the roster right now. Pitts is getting flagged waaaaay too much for mental mistakes but I still think he's probably the best of the lot and should stay at guard; replacing the tackles is obviously a major priority. Drafting a TE who actually could make it from the practice bubble to the field without sustaining a season-ending injury would make a huge difference for the O-line too.

    I also don't buy that this WR corps is as talented as we were led to believe. I'm not in the "drop Gaffney" lynch mob but he's not a top-flight WR; he'll have to do for now. The other guys are young and inexperienced and aren't getting the ball thrown to them--most of that is Pendryball, but some is their own individual inabilities to get open.

    The D-line is adequate but not stellar. I like Gary Walker and have since he was an Oiler. Sadly, this D-line underachieves and Walker hasn't lived up to his price tag. (At this point I don't care why.) Smith hasn't either, but he's young and at least has THAT upside. Payne reworked his deal and does still try. In all, I'd like to see better, but for now the DL will have to do. There are bigger priorities.

    Other than the OL, the area most in need of an upgrade is the LB corps. These guys are getting worse--with or without Babin. It's inconceivable that this unit has only produced 1 turnover (from a backup!) and 2 sacks all season. No, not inconceivable. The word is pathetic.

    Lots of changes needed--this team is bottom-third of the NFL in overall talent, but there are a few bright spots. I say start with OL and LB to stop the bleeding, then worry about depth. Of course, before any LB changes, we'll have to wait and see what scheme the new coach will be running to know what kind of new puzzle pieces Houston needs.
     
  16. gtexan02

    gtexan02 Working?

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    15,785
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Location:
    Boston
    If we have Pitts and McKinney, or Pitts and Wiegart playing Guard, would you not agree that this would be at least acceptable? Then we have a rookie/FA LT and Center who would come in, and then Wade at RT. Wade has the size and skills needed to be an RT in this league. He has shown that in Miami, like it or not. He has regressed every play that he has played in Houston. With a new coach, our OL could be talented.

    As for DL, I agree with you. TJ, Payne, and Smith will be our DL of the future. As good as Walker is, unless we resign him for a lot less than he's due, won't be worth the $$. His age + his injuries have started to have an effect on him.

    As for WR, once again I agree. They are not priority. i would draft a top 20 TE before a top 5 WR at this point. A good TE would totally change our offense. Red zones, 3rd downs, cover twos would all be problems of the past

    And as for LB, once again, I sort of agree. OLBs are not a priority. Peek, Babin, Wong, and Greenwood are all qualified OLBs. What we need is one truly stellar, sure tackling ILB. I don't care if he can pass rush, as long as he can tackle. If we stick with the 3-4, we can stick either Wong or Greenwood next to him and probably be ok.

    So my dream draft would have us taking a top 10 LT, then an ILB and then a TE, however high we can get them. After that would come Center, CB, SS, FS, etc.
     
  17. nunusguy

    nunusguy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,991
    Likes Received:
    244
    Location:
    Houston
    One can say it, but difficult to validate that claim since our Defense had its "best" performance at Cinci when Walker & Babin were also out. So it
    would seem our Ds ability to perform effectively hinges on something else besides the presense of those 2.
     
  18. Crank_It_Up

    Crank_It_Up Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    Messages:
    217
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Houston
    agreed
     
  19. Ibar_Harry

    Ibar_Harry Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    71
    I'm beginning to wonder about some of your comments Vinny. There is an overtone that's not very nice about your statements. I will agree with the general assesment that the loss of our lineman defensively and offensively has hurt us badly. Our defense has been very bad and I too am upset with what we are seeing and would agree whole heartidly that we have once again lost key personnel to injuries. There is no question that a player like Walker is sorely missed. Its also true we simply have no backups anywhere and depth which you have often talked about is sorely missed. Part of this I will again attribute to coaching because we do not bring players along to fill in. We never seem to be able to replace players when someone goes down. The loss of Glenn and Sharper is also a big part of what we are seeing. Any way you cut it it looks like its going to be a very miserable long season. There is going to be a lot of infighting and I think a great deal of damage beyound what has already occurred is going to happen. We need an instant coaching change, but I understand why it probably won't happen. I'm not certain we can wait despite what is the norm.
     
  20. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,279
    Likes Received:
    1,064

    Though coaching can do a lot, I am not sure that the success of those players is soley due to coaching. Often, good things happen to players who are put in better situations, surrounded by quality depth and experienced players.

    For example, the coach of the Bronco's D-Line has said that they thought that those former Browns players would be better if they could rotate in, and not have to expend maximum effort for an entire game. So a Gerard Warren can look like a "hard worker" in Denver rather than the "inconsistent lazy" guy he was in Cleveland because there is more depth at that position and he doesn't have to play every snap. The coaches created a situation for them to excel, but also had the luxury of some depth to create that environment.

    Tom Brady succeeds in New England because the team he was on had quality, smart experienced players that could help support him--does he succeed if he were the #1 pick of an expansion team?

    I am not saying that coaching doesn't matter. But being surrounded by experienced deep talent can help nuture player development a lot easier than being thrown into a situation where you are pulling pieces and parts together from the draft and other's salary cap casulties and trying to put together a team. The core of some team's lines have been together longer than our franchise's existence.

    There are so few can't miss guys in the league. Guys so good that they can go into a recently created team and instantly excel. We've drafted a few of them and got a few other in F.A. Can't miss O line guys are the hardest to get because not every draft has them, few can succeed immediately and especially without mentoring of experienced great players, and most of them have gnarly things in their medical histories because of what they do so when you pick em, you got to hope and pray they hold up.

    I actually have a lot of empathy for the coaching and personnel staff, as unpopular as this opinion may be. It is hard to build a team from scratch--it is much easier being a Phil Jackson and keep going where the talent is. It is really easy to figure out what the problems are but hard to address them from a real world, salary cap perspective. I know everybody says Oline this or that, but it is easier to spot the offensive playmakers and make a bigger impact on winning to shore up the defense, then to take a chance on an Olinemen who may or may not be a world beater when he is not surrounded by other great linemen and maybe has a history of ghouly injuries.

    Travis Johnson wasn't a popular pick at all, but given Gary Walker's history, it was something I guess they felt they needed to do. The biggest difference between this season and previous couple ones is that our defense is really struggling.

    I read a lot of posts here and often agree with some of the criticism of stuff, an 0-5 team is easy to find problems with, but rarely do I find posts of real world solutions to stuff that I agree with. Yeah, you can't fire the team, you can only fire coaches, I just hope that whatever we do isn't stupid or shortsighted because that is what panic can often produce.
     

Share This Page