How does this guy still have a job?

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by Kaiser Toro, Feb 2, 2006.

  1. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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  2. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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  3. 66cobra

    66cobra Veteran

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    to be fair Kaiser, PBuch was acquired in a trade, not free agency, and Boselli was picked in the expansion draft. But I get your point about the others- we have a lousy track record when it comes to free agents.
     
  4. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

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    I don't like to speculate on things that I don't actually have information about. (Strange, I know. :) ) As who's to blame and who's driving the bus with various transactions.

    All I know is that player's careers are finite, and if given a choice between going to a winning team, or an established team, or an expansion team, most players are not going to want to play for an expansion team, unless they get paid big time or are from this part of the world and are still getting paid.

    We are still a baby team. We haven't put together a winning season yet. The average NFL career is a little over 3 years. There are no guaranteed contracts and an injury can end everything.

    In other words, we are not the most attractive city for free agents to go to. We have some things going for us, but for a while, we are going to have to overpay our free agents and some free agents will have no interest in the Texans at all. It is our reality.

    So, I have no opinion about how those gentlemen are doing in their jobs other than to wish them well.
     
  5. chuckm

    chuckm Hall of Fame

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    what she said
     
  6. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    To be fair these two gentleman are there to manage cap and pro scouting. These are two areas that we hit Cass on hard. Our cap situation is not awful, but the way we have spent money and evalutaed players has been below average. If anyone is going to have conversations on how inept Cass is then we have to get granular and root out the problems within operations.
     
  7. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    I will have to respectfully diagree. We are not a baby team any longer. We have as many dollars to spend as any other team in the NFL, it is how we choose to spend that money and what type of return investment we get. Purchasing and evaluating has not been a strength.

    I have never heard of Houston not being an attractive destination for FA's in any of the major sports. In fact it has been too often for superstars who are at the sunset of their careers.

    Yes these two gentlemen are not sexy names and not in the spotlight, as they are not want to do, but the more you read these boards on where the direction of this team has been and is going it is quite evident that their stamp is on every player that we and our new coaches have question marks on.
     
  8. Spoda

    Spoda Veteran

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    well if we draft vnce he will take over all negotiations and player signings along with the draft..so no worries
     


  9. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

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    Houston is a great city. There are a lot of reasons why people would want to live here. And it is a place where many athletes live, even when they don't play here, because of the no state income tax thing and relatively cheap housing.

    That being said, how can you claim we are no longer a baby team? Of course, the fans expectations can be higher than 2002, but to the rest of the world, the Texans are still a non-winning team, who has the invisible offensive line in the ESPN ads, and was the punchline of countless jokes last season--not only a bad team, but a team that was bad but to add insult to injury, was accused of throwing games. There are terrible towels older than our franchise. Our fanbase is puny compared to other teams. We have little tradition.

    I spoke to a player who came from another team, and he was comparing the Texans event functions to the functions from the team he came from, and in so many words, said that ours were a fraction of the size of his old team.

    Heard another FA player talk about how he used to be recognized all the time in his old city, but that it rarely happens in Houston.

    If a free agent is coming to Houston, it is because they are getting paid. Paid more than what a successful, more established team is paying them. Period. That is our reality right now.

    Maybe Kubiak's hire can persuade some free agents to come here and to hope that their finite career won't be wasted playing for some small fan base, non-winning, punchline team. I know that is harsh, but it is our reality until we win and become a more popular team.

    But basically, in the short term, we should expect our best players to be from the draft or who have ties to the Houston area. As it is, most of our best players are home grown or came from the expansion draft where the players didn't have a choice in the matter.

    But all I know is if I were a probowl free agent who had no ties to the area, I would have no interest in coming to Houston unless they paid me way more than anyplace else.

    :(
     
  10. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    I agree or am sensitive to everything you said, and in my own twisted way I believe thorugh this post you do agree with the assertion that started this thread. The things that other FA's have told you or that your heard about are staff tweaks not city tweaks. The city does not organize the function, the staff does. I contest that our operations/marketing people are not helping.

    There are countless people who choose to train here that do not live or play here, why is that? We are baby team from a tradition stand point in the Houston Texans sense not NFL, but other than that there is no reason why we cannot win like the Ravens did five years into their existence. Kubiak is a great start in beginning a Texans tradition and speaking to all that Houston has to offer and have confidence that he will be build a winning tradition. It is the suits that are in the shadows that are not pulling their weight in my opinion.

    Your last statement, in my opinion, is true due to who are higher paid players are. I truly believe that not many people want to play for a team that looks at how our cap is being spent and do not want to be a part of it.
     
  11. Sarg01

    Sarg01 Hall of Fame

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    The Negotiations guy's job isn't to match pay to talent. It's to influence in a generally downward direction the pay and cap implications for a player that the scouting people and GM have identified as someone to bring on board. He's not responsible for figuring out how constructive a Gary Walker or Morlon Greenwood will be.

    The Texans are in good cap shape, despite our paying people more than they are worth. I don't think we have any way of knowing if the guy's good, since we don't have any way of knowing what the overpaid players wanted coming into the negotiations.
     
  12. cadahnic

    cadahnic All Pro

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    Kaiser I agree with you on this one and am sensitive to what Texans_Chick is trying to say. Bottomline our contract guys have overpaid when they could shoot lower than they do. What we do have is an attractive organization and till this year we were a team on the rise. We likely do need to improve our marketing to potential FAs and show them a bit better of a time, but that is another department not discussed really in the start of this thread.
     
  13. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    The job of a negotiator is to go in and get the team's perceived value of a player based upon their evaluation as well as what the market will bear. The evaulations have not been good, but the term and dollars thrown around are up to the negotiator to find out what the value of that player is within the market. If you do not think we overpaid market value before we signed Wade and Greenwood then you will not find many who share that opinion.

    We are in good cap shape until next year, given we resign DC and draft Bush.
     
  14. LBC_Justin

    LBC_Justin All Pro

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    wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong
    Houston has been a long time popular destination in Basketball. In the mid-90s lots of guys took paycuts to pay for our team. The last few years many players have had the Rockets high on their list of teams they would like to play for. Astros have never had trouble attacting good players in Free Agency. Guys love to play in Houston because of the no state income tax thing.

    When it comes to football, I don't think you understand what Dan Ferens the Director of Negotiations actually does. He doesn't evaluate talent. He doesn't say "this guy isn't very good, so he doesn't deserve very much money." Our scouting department and personell department tells him how much a guy is worth, then it is his job to get creative and structure the deal so it is cap friendly and doesn't break the bank. If the players don't perform up to their potential, gets hurt, or just plain sucks you blame the coach or the scouts or the personnel guys, not the negotations guy.

    The guy spent YEARS in Pittsburgh. I don't know how much you know about the Steelers but they are notorious for under paying players and getting the "Steelers' Discount". So this guy knows what he is doing and he is doing just fine considering the situation.

    I leave you with one question:
    How many player in the NFL grew up dreaming of one day playing for the Houston Texans?

    That will change, but it is going to take time and some winning seasons. Believe it or not it makes a big difference, as money isn't everyting.
     
  15. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    Read all of my posts on this thread.
     
  16. Texans_Chick

    Texans_Chick Utopian Dreamer

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    I do not agree with your original assertion in this thread in so much as I don't believe people's heads should roll if I don't have any actual knowledge to back that up. I've stated already the core reason why I don't think we have better quality free agent acquitions and why we have to overpay for the ones we get.

    Personally, I am not anti-Cass as others here so basically I have no need to put people's heads on sticks. How much was coaching driven or draft driven, I do not know.

    As for the marketing people, this is something that I do know about and do have an opinion about. Our marketing people are some of the most fabulous, hard working people you will ever come across. They promote the heck out of different events, the events are a lot of fun, but there are just not as many fanatic Texans fans as there are GB fans or Steeler fans or KC fans or any number of other franchises.

    The player I was talking to was talking about the size of the venue. There are certain NFL events that every NFL team holds--I think they are required. And it is just that soooo many more people want to go to those events in other cities that they have to hold them in larger venues. At many Texans events, the majority of people you will see at them are Texans sponsors and not so much the individual fan.

    With last year's losing season, I was able to go to all sorts of lightly attended events that I probably wouldn't have been able to go to if the team were more popular. My lemonade outta lemons.

    Winning will fix things better than blaming the marketing department for trying there hardest to sell a losing product. You can't make chicken salad outta chicken ----.

    As I understand it, some of the previous expansion franchised teams had some advantages over us in obtaining free agents. It used to be that teams didn't manage their caps well because they weren't really prepared for it. And so the newish teams could take advantage of that because they had all sorts of free money. (The reason why Capers did well with the Panthers quickly).

    Teams these days do a much better job keeping the players they really want to keep.

    I don't know how much the suits in the shadows are doing or not doing in getting us players--much of that is driven by the types of players the coaches want and who is available.

    I hope Kubes create some more confidence here and make people believe that winning can happen in Houston right away.

    What?

    I don't understand what you are saying.
     
  17. Sarg01

    Sarg01 Hall of Fame

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    I didn't hear too much complaining about Wade and Greenwoods contracts until after they failed to perform. Free Agents coming to a team without much history and without a winning season are always going to be substantially more expensive than the market average.

    If the coaching/scouting evaluation is "we gotta get this guy" than the negotiations staff has their hands tied. We have no way to evaluate the guy's performance. For all we know, he might have hit on every negotating point management asked for. Salary is not the only point he's supposed to close on. Perhaps he's supposed to accelerate a given deal's cap implications. Perhaps he's supposed to delay them. Perhaps he's supposed to stack a deal to do it's cap damage in a given year that looks like it'll be a good cap year. We just can't judge his performance without knowing what he was asked to do and what the agents were asking.
     
  18. Kaiser Toro

    Kaiser Toro Native Mod

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    Do appreciate your insight into the soft under belly of organization, but although they may be terrific people in marketing, it does seem through another post on this thread that you were implying marketing is an issue. I have always been a huge proponent of working smarter not harder. No sarcasm here, just a take.

    As far as my last statement and as a former agent, dealing with European contracts in basketball, I always asked my veteran clients what they wanted and believe me money was not always the driving issue. It was balance of teammates, money, location and short term success. I think when prospective players look at us they do not see short term success given our many shortcomings at positions that are commanding large hits against the cap.
     
  19. LBC_Justin

    LBC_Justin All Pro

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    Kaiser Toro,
    I have read all of your posts. I totally dissagree with you.

    You seem to think players are all about the money.
    WRONG!!!!!!!!
    Winning Tradition - NONE
    Celebrity - Minimal National TV coverage
    Childhood Love for a team - Not unless you in grade school
    Prestige - In other cities many people who aren't big football fans don't even know that the Houston Texans are a football team.

    When all of this is lacking, you have to throw in a few extra dollars to make up for it.

    This will all change and only winning can speed up the process but for now it is what it is like Texan_Chick said that is the reality of our situation.

    Blaming the marketing department! LOL why don't we fire the janitors too while were at it. Have you ever been in Sales? Imagine you job is to market one of the worst products. Not easy, and not getting much easier. 2-14 doesn't help. Drafting Vince Young would make the marketing job a lot easier in the very short term but would not help with us winning right away and taking any QB with the first overall pick would hit the cap pretty hard, especially considering that guy wouldn't play for a year or two.

    Oh and the Ravens were not an expansion team. The Browns were.
     
  20. jerek

    jerek Pro Hobbyist

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    I wasn't active on the board at the time, but in this case I would like to point out my omniscience and say that I had a problem with Greenwood's contract. He was a decent LB in Miami and got paid good LB money to come here and do nothing but tackle as a function of the system. He is overpaid for his skill and what he brings to the team, and whether it was our director of Negotiations, Cass, or his pet monkey that inked the deal, I fault them for it. As well, there were several other, significantly better and more proven LBs (Kendrell Bell, Hartwell, among several others) that I would have much rather us pursued.

    Wade, I didn't know enough about to comment.

    No staff is omniscient, every staff will make a mistake. Sometimes, you just believe too much of a guy. It hasn't happened enough to where I am sure the guys doing the contracts need to be fired, but Kaiser is right, there have been some significantly costly mistakes made on the part of the staff here.
     

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