How can this be?

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by Lambert, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. Lambert

    Lambert Veteran

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  2. eriadoc

    eriadoc Texan-American

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    Burfict is undoubtedly better than either Mercilus or Reed, and maybe both put together. JJ Watt plays a different position and different role, so there's no comparison. And Watt is a better player anyway.
     
  3. thunderkyss

    thunderkyss Salem Poor

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    There's little comparison to any of them as Burfict plays in a 4-3, he's more of a true LB than our 3-4 OLBs who are more like DEs in a 4-3. Burfict played LB his whole college career. Neither Merci or Reed played a snap as LBs in college.


    It is pretty sick how the Bengals found him undrafted though.
     
  4. HOU-TEX

    HOU-TEX Ah, Football!

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    Cushing would be right up there in that range had he remained healthy.

    3-4 OLBs aren't comparable to ILBs or any LBs in a 4-3. And JJ's position shouldn't even be mentioned when talking about high tackle numbers.
     
  5. JB

    JB Old Curmudgeon

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    ^^^ This

    It's like comparing apples and coconuts
     
  6. TheIronDuke

    TheIronDuke Hall of Fame

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    OP has a major crush on Brooke Reed and is trying to say that just because stats show Brooke as the worst 3-4 OLB in the game that he is actually good. Anyone else who's ever watched football can watch his play and look at his pathetic stats to deduce that he is just absolutely awful and is probably the worst player we have on defense.
     
  7. JB

    JB Old Curmudgeon

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    Don't know about him, but I don't have a crush on Reed. But he is not near as bad as some of you make him out to be. He does just what Wade asks him to do in his position.
     
  8. TheIronDuke

    TheIronDuke Hall of Fame

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    There was a thread I started a couple of weeks ago that detailed his number of pass rushes vs number of times hitting the QB and it was terrible. The notion that Phillips is getting what he wants from Reed is false.

    Here you go:

    http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103260&highlight=Brooks
     


  9. JB

    JB Old Curmudgeon

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    This is what I was referring to

    Reed rushes the passer after he has done his primary job of setting the edge and making sure he has contain on his side. Grading him the same way as you grade a pass rushing OLB like Ware or others is just misleading.

    I do think he can be upgraded, but he is doing what he is coached to do.
     
  10. silentassassin

    silentassassin Veteran

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    The guy was a lauded as a 1st-rd talent during his college career, but I think his on/off-field behavior and other things lead to the drop in his draft stock.

    I don't think it was that the Bengals found him as much as it was them being the team most willing to take a chance on him. Still have to give them credit for that though.
     
  11. thunderkyss

    thunderkyss Salem Poor

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    We took Sam Montgomery in the 3rd. They took this guy as an UDFA.

    We're still waiting for Sharpton to come around & spent vet minimum on Joe Mays. They should get a lot of credit.

    There are situations when setting the edge is not his primary concern. When the Texans are expecting pass, he shouldn't be worried about setting the edge. 3rd & 20+ we've been in plenty of those situations & Reed still can't sniff the QB.

    He's a fine football player, I'm not saying different, but he is not a pass rusher. Not in a 3-4
     
  12. Playoffs

    Playoffs Subscribed Contributor

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    Firstly, tackle statistics in the NFL are... non-standardized, to put it politely:

    The NFL's Make-Believe Stat
    One reason I prefer ProFootballFocus, as they keep their own statistics watching every play on the All-22. And they don't "gift" tackles. For instance, if a QB trips over his shoelaces in the backfield the NFL insists on awarding a sack to the closest player(s) -- PFF doesn't do stuff like that.

    So PFF's tackle statistics for the aforementioned are as follows: Burfict 111, Reed 33, Mercilus 29, and Watt 57. (And FYI, Sharpton 62, Mays 51 both playing 30-40% less)

    So on to Burfict et al. It's how they're schemed/used...

    Burfict 4-3 OLB spends 55% of the time in pass coverage, 36% in run defense, and just 8% in pass rush.
    Code:
    Play Counts	
    Total	Run Def.	Pass Rush	Pass Cov.	% Snaps
    973	350	        84	        539	        95.8
    
    Reed 3-4 OLB Reed spends just 11% in pass coverage, 44% run defense, and 45% in pass rush.
    Code:
    Play Counts	
    Total	Run Def.	Pass Rush	Pass Cov.	% Snaps
    972	432	        434	        106	        97.9
    
    Mercilus 3-4 OLB spends just 4% in pass coverage, 45% in run defense, and 51% in pass rush.
    Code:
    Play Counts	
    Total	Run Def.	Pass Rush	Pass Cov.	% Snaps
    917	410	        470	        37	        92.3
    
    Burfict's defensive snap count is 78% higher than the next highest Cincinnati LB's, so it looks like he's more a 3-down drop/coverage "middle fielder" than what you'd expect from a typical OLB. And teams may be attacking Burfict more often.
     
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  13. NastyNate

    NastyNate I go kerplunk

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    He doesn't interview well, if at all really. Most interviews in college would go along the lines of "How do you see yourself translating to the NFL?"

    "Um, good."

    Plus the incident where he tussled with a teammate on the sidelines didn't do him any favors. Even with all that said, my buddies can attest to how much I was screaming at the TV during the 2012 draft. Oh jesus I can feel my blood boiling again just thinking about it. He was the best linebacker talent in that class by FAR and nobody would even take a 5th or 6th round flyer on him. Instead we got... f@#king Randy Bullock and Nick Mondek. My blood boils still thinking about it.

    Cincinnati has that position locked up for a long time if he stays healthy. His closing speed and instincts are insane and his 40 didn't broadcast that enough. Such a good talent. Damn you Phillips.
     
  14. infantrycak

    infantrycak Mod. Staff Member

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    You left out quite a bit there. In college he was a personal foul magnet to the point he was benched despite his good play, causing a loss along the way. Plus his junior season was off and he decided to go pro anyway. Those bad interviews were bad in part because he is reported to have blamed the coaches for his bad junior year. Then he was the slowest LB at the combine at a ridiculous 5.09 and was reported to have tested positive for pot. Plus there was some sort of off the field issue I can't recall. Glad to see he is turning out but you need to tack on another 31 teams along with the Texans who jointly didn't think he was worth a draft pick.
     
  15. steelbtexan

    steelbtexan Hall of Fame

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    Yep no need to take chances on troubled but talented guys in rds 5-7.

    Guys I would consider taking in rds 5-7 this yr include,

    Lyerla 1st rd talent, FA brain.
    Dyer, Same
    Crowell, Same
    Seantrel Henderson
     
  16. infantrycak

    infantrycak Mod. Staff Member

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    Quite the opposite. I advocate taking flyers in those rounds on guys whose performance would have them several rounds above but are troubled in some fashion. But the full list of this guys' problems wasn't being provided. Would totally approve of having picked him or that WR that fell out of the draft last year.
     
  17. mussop

    mussop Hall of Fame

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    Agree, this is where you take those chances. I was begging for him in the 5th. Couldn't believe we passed on him again in the six and seventh.

    Here is an old post of mine on him.

     
  18. NastyNate

    NastyNate I go kerplunk

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    He could have beat his sunday school teacher with a ruler and I'd still be on board. You don't let first round talent fall through your hands when you have a chance to snatch them in the 5th 6th or even 7th round (I know we didn't have a 7th rounder that draft). Hell even UDFA you extend a bigger offer with incentives. IF he pans out that's money well spent. If he doesn't, almost none of that contract is guaranteed and it certainly isn't hitting your cap that year if it is incentive based.

    We take a 3rd round shot at Sam Montgomery and pass on Vontaze Burfict... Boy do we ever draft well.
     
  19. bah007

    bah007 Hall of Fame

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    Funny how revisionist history always turns its head when a guy like Burfict ends up working out.

    I remember talking this guy up before the draft despite his problems. I wouldn't have used a first round pick on him, but I advocated using a third (NFL GMs obviously disagreed with me). Most of you guys were on board with me until he had that god awful combine performance. I can't remember a single person on this board talking up Burfict after that, so it's funny to see people popping out of the woodwork now that he's had some NFL success.
     
  20. NastyNate

    NastyNate I go kerplunk

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    I was still all aboard in March after the combine, check my post history.
     

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