How bad is the coaching?

Discussion in 'Texans Talk' started by Ibar_Harry, Dec 26, 2005.

  1. Ibar_Harry

    Ibar_Harry Hall of Fame

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    This seems like a mantra, but I would like to examine a couple of points from last week and this week.

    Last week Carr calls his own plays in the 2nd qtr and we come up with a lot of points.

    This Week Carr goes to Pendry and says the last time we played the Jags we threw a lot of real short stuff and I can get rid of the ball just as quickly on a fast 5 step drop as the other way and I think they will be looking for the short stuff. I believe that is a relatively accurate paraphrase of what he said.

    The coaching staff called the plays for the most part this week, but we did get TD's off of the Deep ball suggested by Carr and their were several other missed opportunities.

    Its really beginning to look like Carr is not the problem at all and has far more capability than many have thought. Rather than thinking Carr has to learn, may be the problem is he is being held back to the point of ridiculousness. Are our coaches so controll freeks that no one could ever win under this administration? Is Carr finally comfortible enough to start saying things? Has be been on so tight a leash that he couldn't say anything? I'm the 1st to admit that I have a real dislike for this coaching staff and certainly believe Carr has a lot of capability. But like others I was really beginning to question my beliefs. I think these last two weeks have been a real eye openor. It really has the look of we have wasted a heck of a talent for 5 years.

    I'm also sorry to say the goes for AJ, Gaffney, and all of the other receivers on this ball club. I'm certain you can find similar things with respect to the defensive side of the ball. I guess there has been a whole lot wrong for an awful long time. I've been saying that for a long time. If I were McNair I think I would be awfully sick when I think of all of the time, talent, money, and emotion that has been wasted over the last 5 years. Someone said McNair and Casserly looked pretty glum yesterday in the box. I would too given what I think we have in talent. Do we need some more players? Certainly by no means are we perfect, but we are a whole lot better and have a whole lot more talent that the record indicates. It has simply been squandered.
     
  2. Marcus

    Marcus Ruthless pragmatist

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    If you are going to keep playing your broken record Ibar, then I'm going to do the same.

    There has been no time, never, in NFL history, where a fan of a particular team that is on the bottem end of a W-L record, DID NOT think there was more talent than the record indicated. Never!
     
  3. NederlandTexan

    NederlandTexan Veteran

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    Yes there has been Marcus. I believe there are many on this board who were Oiler fans. I was one, and in the early eighties we were as bad as our record.
     
  4. rmartin65

    rmartin65 I'm Score

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    Coaching was really bad. Everyone should go, maybe the ST coach can stay.
     
  5. Corrosion

    Corrosion Idealist

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    Carr is a Class Act and has been rather tight lipped about his feelings about the coaching decisions ... Notice he has said Nothing publicly about Casserly and Capers outright lie .... "we'll protect you better" .

    Its easy to place the failure of this offense on Carr .... but you have to look beyond his stats .... at the rediculous play calling (which I complained about as far back as last season ) ..... the even worse protection ....the lack of a TE that is multi dimensional .....and finally the fact he has NOTHING to work with at the WR position other than AJ .

    There are things that Carr can improve upon , his play action fake could get better , he needs to SELL it better ..... He could look off defenders a bit better ....But as of today I'll keep Carr over most other QB's in the game today .:twocents:
     
  6. Jack Bauer

    Jack Bauer All Pro

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    That is most definitely incorrect. I have seen plenty of teams worse than their record even though they were the worst team in the league. A team wins a few games it shouldn't....

    Fairly common in the NFL.
     
  7. cuppacoffee

    cuppacoffee Resident Grouch

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    Wrong! You must not have followed the Oilers?


    I am in Ibars camp on this.

    Bad coaching is bad coaching. Our players were better prepared when they arrived here than they are now. The coaching they received in college and in their other NFL stops was better than they are getting now.
    I also fell into the trap of blaming Casserly and the players for our problems. It's no coincidence that the players we are subbing in now seem to play better than the players they are subbing for. They haven't been receiving as much of the intensive poor coaching from this staff.
    His first year here Wand showed lots of promise on the O line. The more this bunch coached him the worse he became. You can't fool your fellow players. Boselli, when he was here, praised Wands ability. I think Boselli has forgotten more about O line play that Pendry will ever learn. Wands treatment will remain a sore spot with me for a long time.


    :coffee:
     
  8. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    I don't think we are all that talented myself.
     


  9. LoneStarState

    LoneStarState Veteran

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    I think it's a combination of lack of coaching and lack of talent. The most frustrating thing about the state of the Texans is the wasted opportunities the coaches and front office had to acquire (either through the draft, trade or FA) quality depth. Instead, they have wasted draft picks by drafting prospects/projects or trading the picks for below average players.

    I will give them credit for drafting Andre Johnson, DD, Dunta, and Jerome Mathis. Beyond that...um, well... never mind... :brickwall
     
  10. Tulip

    Tulip Hall of Fame

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    Mack Brown/Greg Davis did the same thing to Chris Simms and Vince Young. And it took Vince Young asking Mack Brown to have some faith in him to turn the Longhorns from an almost-great team to a national championship contender.

    If I remember correctly, Carr had the same kind of discussion with Chris Palmer between the 2003 and 2004 seasons. Which helped to some degree -for a while.

    I do believe that Carr has been stifled and given little responsibility. It's part of the "playing not to lose" philosophy that keeps a team from competing at the next level. There's only so much that talent can overcome. The Texans have the same talent level on offense that they did last year, so it's hard to blame the personnel for what has happened on that side of the ball this season.

    Never throwing deep removes one dimension of worry and planning for the opposing defense, and in turn, ends up choking our offense.

    I'm like you, Ibar - I'm starting to feel like a broken record, but the depth of culpability on the coaching side is becoming more evident with each game.
     
  11. stevo3883

    stevo3883 All Pro

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    I look at our team and it doesnt seem like we are that talented...

    WR we are really really lacking. TE no comment needed. Lb's should be the heart of the defense... bunch of underachievers. all our secondary minus robinson dont really deserve a salary. our dline likes to disappear a lot.

    we're not like the jets. Their main excuse for going 3-12 is losing their starting qb's, and their HB going down.

    we didn't have our qb and Hb go down. so whats our excuse? bad coaching? usually you still see flashes even through bad coaching. We didnt hold a lead until what the 10th game?
     
  12. Buffi2

    Buffi2 Site Contributor

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    I'm going to echo that. I'll grant you that some of our players aren't quite 'A' list or even 'B' in some cases.

    I have watched players with potential get worse and worse rather than better and better while they are being "coached" (and I use that word loosely) by Capers, et al. Some players show flashes of becoming a good player, but that is seemingly squelched by the coaches.

    I honestly can't understand either the actions or philosophy of this coaching staff. This has been the most depressing/frustrating part of this season to me. You would think that coaches would be competitive enough to sit themselves down and ask what the problem could possibly be or, at the very least, continue with a plan that is basically working. I am one fan who will be quite happy when this group is history.
     
  13. Vinny

    Vinny shiny happy fan Staff Member

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    We don't have a legit weak side pass rusher, a second starting CB...we have second day draft prospects who missed several tackles last week at both S spots, no true big play instinctive inside linebacker on the roster outside of Morlon Greenwood (ugh), and probably the worst front 7 in the NFL. On offense we have gotten miserable QB play, miserable line play, poor play out of the TE, and we start Corey Bradford.....we just aren't that talented.
     
  14. aj.

    aj. Hall of Fame

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    I was going to say....

    I can recall several Oilers teams where the record matched the lack of talent, most notably the '82 team (Munch's rookie season) that had several LYB notables on their way out, Archie Manning at QB and Harold Bailey as the leading WR. They went 1-8 in a strike shortened season. Then there was the 3-13 '84 team (Moon's first year) with Larry Moriarty and Tim Smith as leading RB and WR; and who can forget the forgettable cap cleaned 2-14 '94 squad which I admit underachieved a bit recordwise, but had probably one of the worst QB trifectas in Houston history with Cody, Bucky, and Billy Joe. Yee haw.
     
  15. Bubbajwp

    Bubbajwp All Flopper

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    I would say AJ, Drob, J Mathis are our only stars.
    DD, K Wong, C Pitts, J Gaff are all average.
    Everybody else is below average.

    Definetly lack talent.
     
  16. Marcus

    Marcus Ruthless pragmatist

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    The Oilers? Oh my God! I remember how bad the Oilers were. They didn't have internet message boards back then, but they did have plenty of sports talk shows, and the callers were singing the same blues then about plenty of talent and bad coaching, as they are now.

    Blaming it all on coaching is the eternal optimist's quick fix. Change the coaching and you're playoff bound.lol:

    In 2006, when they don't win any more than 5 or 6 games . . . well, I guess they will have plenty of talent, right? :rolleyes:
     
  17. dat_boy_yec

    dat_boy_yec All Pro

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    AJ and D-Rob last year may have been stars, but honestly this yr. they haven't built on what they had last season. Their playing this yr. hasn't stood out. Mathis is a great kick returner, but hasn't been given enough opportunities at wide receiver. I honestly think he needs to work on his catching he dropped a few balls that a supposed star should not. Wong has been out most of the season and to be honest I think Orr has proven he has just as much if not more talent than Wong. Pitts has shown hints of being a good LT but started the season at guard. The lines run blocking is dare I say a little bit above average making me wonder how much better our running game would be with an upgrade at rb. You can't judge the teams talent when the coaching doesn't utilize it well. You say we lack talent, I say it hasn't been utilized properly.
     
  18. Hervoyel

    Hervoyel The Right Track

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    True, every word of that. Some of them however were correct. Sometimes the fans are right. No, not always but often they are. It's often been said that the difference in talent between NFL teams at the bottom and the top isn't as great as many people think. I believe there's something to that.

    When a Chargers team goes from 4-12 (2003) to 12-4 then the fans who said that were probably right. When a Bears team goes 5-11 (2000) and follows it up wth a 13-3 season then those fans were probably right.

    We were 7-9 last year in spite of everything that was wrong with our team. In one year we went from 7-9 to around 2-14 with very few real personnel changes to our team.

    The Texans might turn it around next year. It could happen and I'm hardly an eternal optimist.
     
  19. cuppacoffee

    cuppacoffee Resident Grouch

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    Tried to get this to you in another thread, not sure if you saw it or not.
    Absolutely nothing to do with this thread or the Texans...:cool:

    http://www.planetkilmer.com/articles/doc1_sm.jpg


    :coffee:
     
  20. Ibar_Harry

    Ibar_Harry Hall of Fame

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    I started this post because it seemed so strange to see some of the comments that are now coming out for public consumption. I believe we had a number of young receivers like Starling who have been under estimated and wasted. I believe our receivers are very poorly coached and that shows in AJ's performance as well. We had a guy like Kasper who seemed to be a go to guy in the red zone in TC cut. What bothers me about that was he seemed to be getting some accollades and boom he's gone and Bradford is retained with the comments he's just now learning to run routes. I think these coaches are very poor in assessing personnel and do an extremely poor job of coaching the personnel we retain.

    So many of you have commented about how our players are getting worse under this coaching staff. Do you remember before the start of his 2nd year AJ trained cataching the ball by utilizing a throwing machine in Florida. I was critical because he was training in Florida rather than with Carr and Company. May be that was the best thing he ever did, because this year was the opposite. Do we have great receivers, no not right now, but I think they are better than Vinny thinks. On defense I agree with Vinny, but I will still say that it may be a bigger coaching problem than a personnel problem. I think different coaching will simply yield a better result.

    Oh, yes and on the coaching horizon is another vertern coach who may be in trouble. Does the name Parcells ring a bell. I've read a lot of what you guys are thinking, but I'm really not a fan of anyone up for the position right now. May be Reeves is the right guy, I don't know. My point is we need some one who knows the game and knows how to teach the game. Since the beginning of the season I have wanted some one to come in and start teaching our young players the game as it should be played. I swear none of Capers staff really know how to play or teach the game. I realize that's an over simplification, but it really goes to the heart of the matter. Its not only the game time decisions and planning that is so bad, it's also what they are teaching the young men that is equally as bad. May be we need a college coach like Pat Hill who takes a lot of nothing and makes something of it by teaching them how to play the game. I really don't envy Mr. McNair or anyone else who's trying to decide what to do now, because its been allowed to go so far that's its going to be extremely difficult to turn it around. There are so many bad habits these players have fallen into.
     

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