Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
something tells me he won't. just a wild guess.
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Dunta Robinson, Texans to Part Ways
- Thread starter indiantexan
- Start date
something tells me he won't. just a wild guess.
Blake
MMQB
Agreed.
FYI
"Second Honeymoon has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
i blame the agents more than the NFLPA. the agents don't want to take a lowball-ish offer because it makes them look bad. the agents will end up costing their clients millions but will be able to blame the new rules when the prospectively lower deals are inked and signed.
isn't it 6 RFA tenders per team? and now the UFA is 6 years tenure not 4. That is totally brutal.
i wonder if Dunta could do it all over again, would he have taken the deal he was offered last offseason?
i wonder if Dunta would have been franchised or re-signed by the Texans if not for his stupid 'Pay Me Rick' act.
Personally, I blame Kubiak for the PayMeRick blowing up. Dunta wrote the words but he shouldn't have even been on the field after such a selfish message. maybe Dunta getting benched would have woken the team up before their home opener v. the Jets. Dunta shouldn't have even been on the field after that petulant act. I would have benched him and docked him 1/16th of his franchise tag. After the game, Kubiak said he didn't know about the writing on his shoes. Give me an f-ing break. I am sure the whole locker room knew about it. Players talk and their not that stupid. and if Kubiak is that out of touch, we have serious problems.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
that is a 2nd tier signing imho. that is all a speculative term, but guaranteeing around 10-15 million over a long term deal isn't big money. Haynesworth-type deal is what I am talking about. I am talking about getting one of the truly elite players made available. Haynesworth. Jenkins. Turner. etc.
How sweet would it have been to take Big Al away from Bud and then have him just crush the Titans twice a year for the next decade.
nero THE zero
All Pro
The mistake you're making is assuming that McNair shares the same fundamental idea of what creates a winning organization as you. He might very well be of the philosophy that a winning NFL team is built from the ground up, via internal promotions, rewarding your own players, and staying patient and loyal to your staff.
McNair's mentioned that he wants to model his franchise after the Steelers, and they operate in much the same way. Name the last time they spent top dollar of a free agent or hired a big-name head coach.
HuttoKarl
Veteran
Pretty damn sweet.
Blake
MMQB
Thats basically what I said. They are putting OD on a pedestal cause he is a Texan. OD is right in line with your 2nd tier TE's. Heck, even your 2nd tier TE's played a full season in 2009. Not just 8 good games.
When is the last time you remember a legit champion contender NFL team give a multi-year contract extension to a player coming off off a knee injury? That is crazy talk.
And who was it that said "knee injuries arent as serious as they once were 5-10 years ago"? I think it was 2slik4u. Knee injuries can be career ending injuries!!! Are you on drugs that you would say something like that? Yeah I hear that all the time. Dude tore his ACL but dont worry! Just walk it off and rub some dirt on it! You will be fine!
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
how is letting go of your #1 CB who was drafted #10 overall building from the ground up?
how is letting him go rewarding your own players?
staying patient and loyal? this isn't Boy Scouts. it's the NFL. Didn't anyone learn anything from the handling of Carr?
As for the Steelers comparison, it is a disservice to the Steelers to compare them with us. You can't model yourself after a team like the Steelers with words. You have to do it through astute drafting, having success, and building a tradition of winning....trust me, if the Undercover Brother Tomlin doesn't make the playoffs next year, he will be gone. There are already Steelers faithful calling for his head one year removed from a championship.
Tomlin is cursed with the whole Switzer curse. You win but then you are told you won with another coach's team. Then you have a few down years because of injury and you are fired.
Section516
Warrior
I know your not just saying Hayneworth, but I don't want to spend that much money for such a injury prone, known to take off entire games, player. Even Julius peppers. Now, Jared Allen is someone I'd go after. I don't know, I'm just turned on by these high motor players. At least they give it their all, I mean, MW annoys me. So much potential, so much power, yet not the will to give it your all.
Blake
MMQB
Who was Antonio Smith 2 years ago? He rides the red capet from the superbowl Cardinals to the Texans vault on Kirby Dr.. I dont think you and I would disagree that he was not worth what we paid, but the market dictated that.
Hell Chris Canty got paid just as much. Around 7 million a year. Do you consider Chris Canty a big splash?
Section516
Warrior
He was the best DE on the market at the time, minus arranging some deal with the Panthers. Are you regreting that we signed him? He was the best DLman we had this year, all in all (he sucked major donkey at the start.) We still made the deal.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
The problem is there's more than one way to build a winning organization, and you seem to think that the Texans choosing to attempt it another way is simply inexcusable. There's no basis to say it can't work.
The Steelers, Colts, Giants and the Pats have won 7 of the last 9 Super Bowls. Not one of those Super Bowl winning teams relied much at all on high profile Free Agent pickups. In fact that biggest name I can think of that any of them picked up was Plaxico Burress, and at the time the Giants picked him up, he had been a problem in Pittsburgh, and certainly wasn't viewed anywhere close the the way the guys you mention were.
Not the only way to build a franchise, but it's the only way that's created 7 of the last 9 NFL Champions.
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BullNation4Life
All Pro
Adalius Thomas was a pretty big FA acquisition for the PATs that seems to not be working out now...
but your point is valid.
12M seems like a godawful amount for Robinson ? But on the other hand if
NOLA pays Bush 8 M in 2010, as the NFL.Network is now reporting, maybe Robinson is worth 12M ?
One is only a reserve running back, while the other is the best corner on his team plus CBs have a higher positional value. Thoughts ?
NOLA pays Bush 8 M in 2010, as the NFL.Network is now reporting, maybe Robinson is worth 12M ?
One is only a reserve running back, while the other is the best corner on his team plus CBs have a higher positional value. Thoughts ?
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
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Goatcheese
Texan
He allowed 3 receptions for 37 yards the entire game. That's a quality game for anyone not named Asomugha. Even Revis and Woodson had plenty of 30+ yard games.
If your expectation is for him to give up ZERO receptions per game, then you're going to be disappointed in every corner ever to lace 'em up. That is completely unreasonable.
Ask yourself how you would feel if our receivers were held to 3 for 37 by their top corner.
Here is how Darrell Revis fared:
Week 1 HOU 2 for 21
week 2 NEP 4 for 24
week 3 TEN 5 for 64
week 4 NOS 0 for 0
Week 5 MIA 4 for 75
Week 6 BUF 3 for 13
week 7 OAK 2 for 10
week 8 MIA 1 for 15
week10 JAX 2 for 16
week11 NEP 5 for 72
week12 CAR 1 for 5
week13 BUF 3 for 29
week14 TAM 3 for 25
week16 IND 3 for 28
week17 CIN 1 for 16
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Thorn
Dirty Old Man
My thoughts? It's not my money. I'd not like to see them spend that much on an average CB. If they do and still draft a good one to come along later and the team makes the playoffs, the second guessing will go down some, but it'll never leave.
I got my own ideas (as does everyone else here) on how McNair should spend his money though. As to Reggie Bush, the Saints are fools if they spent a lot of money on Bush. At least Dunta starts, which is more than you can say for Reggie Bust.
Hooston Texan
Rookie
True, but the Patriots have not won a Super Bowl since signing Thomas. He was on the 18-1 team, but his defensive unit could not get the critical stop that would have let them go 19-0.
Since free agency got into full swing in the early 1990s, these are the big time free agents who have won Super Bowls as far as I can tell:
Deion Sanders (with the Niners in 1994 and the Cowboys in 1995)
Reggie White (Packers in 1996)
Plaxico Burress
Drew Brees
Deion probably deserves an asterisk: he selected SF and then Dallas based on likelihood of getting a ring (he later said Al Davis offered him more money). An up-and-coming team like the 2009 Texans would have had no shot at PrimeTime in 1994 and 1995 going against the two dominant franchises (winners of 6 out of 8 Super Bowls between 1988 and 1995) of the day.
So that leaves us with White, Burress and Brees over the past 20 years. If I've missed a big-time free agent signing who went on to win get a ring, fire away.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Nice cheap rhetorical tactic. Why don't you throw in his arguments are just too intellectual for most people to understand.
Self-aggrandizing through the compliment of a like minded person.
Given that the Texans ended up with $4 mil in cap space and Albert's cap hit was over $7 mil that statement is incorrect.
It is not a soft cap. There are certain tricks on LTBE and NLTBE bonuses which can be done but they all come down to robbing Peter in one year to pay Paul in another and can't be continued indefinitely.
Yeah right, those less pass happy run deficient offenses known as San Diego and Indy. You know the 31st and 32nd rushing teams.
When he does it for a full year? 2008 5th on receptions, 3rd on yards, 7th on passes over 20, with a 1st down % better than Gates, Witten & Clark.
No tenders can be extended to as many RFAs as a team has.
There's a shocker. Kubiak failed on his pre-game shoe inspection.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
And while I excluded the Saints from my list in large part due to Brees, keep in mind he was largely viewed as risky at best, and damaged goods at worst by almost every NFL team when he was available. The Saints and the Dolphins are the only teams that made him offers, and Brees himself stated that he didn't feel the Dolphins really believed in him.
I would clearly rank Brees along with Reggie White as the two most impactful free agent pickups since free agency as we know it came about, but he was not exactly viewed like Haynesworth (or Reggie White) was and Peppers is when he was available.
Shaft75
All Pro
The guy that owns those seats sells them to opposing fans. And 50% of the time I try to make sure they never buy those again. Although, I have met some cool people down there.
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
I would love to sit in the front row just once.
Shaft75
All Pro
Well, there might be a way. There is always a wedding, vacation, work issue, or some other bullshart event that takes away a game day. I really hate it, but whatever.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Something else to remember is the cap didn't go into effect until 1994 and lots of teams got into big cap trouble signing splashy free agents because it took them a decade to learn to operate within the system. Hence all the big cap dump players for the Texans expansion draft.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
can you name the only player currently under contract in 2010 who was drafted by Casserly?
2005 1 1 16 16 Travis Johnson DT Florida State
2 3 9 73 Vernand Morency RB Oklahoma State
3 4 13 114 Jerome Mathis WR Hampton
4 5 15 151 Drew Hodgdon C Arizona State
5 6 14 188 Ceandris Brown DB Louisiana-Lafayette
6 7 13 227 Kenneth Pettway LB Grambling State
2004 1 1 10 10 Dunta Robinson DB South Carolina
2 1 27 27 Jason Babin DE Western Michigan
3 4 26 122 Glenn Earl DB Notre Dame
4 6 5 170 Vontez Duff DB Notre Dame
5 6 10 175 Jammal Lord DB Nebraska
6 6 35 200 Charlie Anderson LB Mississippi
7 7 9 210 Raheem Orr DE Rutgers
8 7 10 211 Sloan Thomas WR Texas
9 7 47 248 B.J. Symons QB Texas Tech
2003s 1 2 0 0 Tony Hollings RB Georgia Tech
2003 1 1 3 3 Andre Johnson WR Miami (FL)
2 2 9 41 Ben Joppru TE Michigan
3 3 3 67 Antwan Peek LB Cincinnati
4 3 11 75 Seth Wand T Northwest Missouri State
5 3 24 88 Dave Ragone QB Louisville
6 4 4 101 Domanick Davis RB Louisiana State
7 6 19 192 Drew Henson QB Michigan
8 6 41 214 Keith Wright DT Missouri
9 7 3 217 Curry Burns DB Louisville
10 7 19 233 Chance Pearce C Texas A&M
2002s 1 6 0 0 Milford Brown G Florida State
2002 1 1 1 1 David Carr QB Fresno State
2 2 1 33 Jabar Gaffney WR Florida
3 2 18 50 Chester Pitts G San Diego State
4 3 1 66 Fred Weary C Tennessee
5 3 18 83 Charles Hill DT Maryland
6 4 1 99 Jonathan Wells RB Ohio State
7 5 1 136 Jarrod Baxter RB New Mexico
8 5 18 153 Ramone Walker DB Pittsburgh
9 6 1 173 Howard Faggins DB Kansas State
10 6 18 190 Howard Green DT Louisiana State
11 7 18 229 Greg White DE Minnesota
12 7 50 261 Ahmad Miller DT UNLV
Andre Johnson. that's right, what a track record. parting ways with Dunta leaves one player to show four years of draft picks, three top 10's, a #13 & all other associated rounds combined
2005 1 1 16 16 Travis Johnson DT Florida State
2 3 9 73 Vernand Morency RB Oklahoma State
3 4 13 114 Jerome Mathis WR Hampton
4 5 15 151 Drew Hodgdon C Arizona State
5 6 14 188 Ceandris Brown DB Louisiana-Lafayette
6 7 13 227 Kenneth Pettway LB Grambling State
2004 1 1 10 10 Dunta Robinson DB South Carolina
2 1 27 27 Jason Babin DE Western Michigan
3 4 26 122 Glenn Earl DB Notre Dame
4 6 5 170 Vontez Duff DB Notre Dame
5 6 10 175 Jammal Lord DB Nebraska
6 6 35 200 Charlie Anderson LB Mississippi
7 7 9 210 Raheem Orr DE Rutgers
8 7 10 211 Sloan Thomas WR Texas
9 7 47 248 B.J. Symons QB Texas Tech
2003s 1 2 0 0 Tony Hollings RB Georgia Tech
2003 1 1 3 3 Andre Johnson WR Miami (FL)
2 2 9 41 Ben Joppru TE Michigan
3 3 3 67 Antwan Peek LB Cincinnati
4 3 11 75 Seth Wand T Northwest Missouri State
5 3 24 88 Dave Ragone QB Louisville
6 4 4 101 Domanick Davis RB Louisiana State
7 6 19 192 Drew Henson QB Michigan
8 6 41 214 Keith Wright DT Missouri
9 7 3 217 Curry Burns DB Louisville
10 7 19 233 Chance Pearce C Texas A&M
2002s 1 6 0 0 Milford Brown G Florida State
2002 1 1 1 1 David Carr QB Fresno State
2 2 1 33 Jabar Gaffney WR Florida
3 2 18 50 Chester Pitts G San Diego State
4 3 1 66 Fred Weary C Tennessee
5 3 18 83 Charles Hill DT Maryland
6 4 1 99 Jonathan Wells RB Ohio State
7 5 1 136 Jarrod Baxter RB New Mexico
8 5 18 153 Ramone Walker DB Pittsburgh
9 6 1 173 Howard Faggins DB Kansas State
10 6 18 190 Howard Green DT Louisiana State
11 7 18 229 Greg White DE Minnesota
12 7 50 261 Ahmad Miller DT UNLV
Andre Johnson. that's right, what a track record. parting ways with Dunta leaves one player to show four years of draft picks, three top 10's, a #13 & all other associated rounds combined
nero THE zero
All Pro
1. I'm not disputing, nor discussing Dunta. I'm indifferent as to whether we sign(ed) him or not, so that's a non-starter. I am specifically replying to your ubiqitous attacks on the Texans not going after every overpaid big-name on the FA market.
2. I'm not making a qualititative judgment on McNair's approach, simply bringing to light that just because his approach is different than yours would be doesn't mean his objective isn't the same as yours would be.
He picked off Vince on Monday Night Football to secure the win and a play-off spot....Damn, he dropped it, didn't he...He refused to sign the contract we offered. That's the best move he made for Texans fans all year.
Shaft75
All Pro
LostBoy pointed this out in another thread...
Remember the celebration incident? When Manning hosed the ball downfield for a 30 yard gain and Robinson was still showboating. Good riddance.
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
He also dropped a sure interception and got burnt for a TD in basically back to back possessions. Reevis, Asomugha, and Woodson all make that play.
I'm just saying. IF he makes that INT and we beat Tenn on MNF which eventually helps us get into the playoffs, Duntal looks a little better. But after the crying, and then you don't make the sure plays, you gots to go.
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
I got two seats in Sect 115 Row J, would love to swap someday.
Shaft75
All Pro
where's 115?
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
NEZ, right next to the BullPen, BP is 116 & 117.
barrett
All Pro
I think you find with alot of the teams that we try to model ourselves after as an organization they often times let picks walk when the money becomes unrealistic. They resign big time playmakers to big time contracts (Rothlisburger & Hampton today come to mind) but they will let a guy walk if it gets stupid. I think the Texans did exactly that last year. They offered what they believed was a big time contract to what they believed was a big time player. He didn't play as well as they had hoped and I think they felt like after a season back from injury they knew better what they had as well as knowing what he was going to be asking for and it was realistic to cut talks and move on. Why waist time on a deal that it's realistic.
That's the kind of things that I am guessing those organizations go through as well.
The teams I believe we model ourselves after organizationally speaking are Pittsburgh, New England and Indianapolis.
They pay key performers that are interested in the best interest of the team. (Manning, Brady etc. Guys that are willing to structure a contract reasonably and they let the stupid money guys go because it's not good business and in turn not good football because of how it effects the other players.
You don't pay guys that aren't going to be getting better either.
Goatcheese
Texan
LostBoy pointed this out in another thread...
Remember the celebration incident? When Manning hosed the ball downfield for a 30 yard gain and the whole defense was still showboating. Good riddance.
Added a little intellectual honesty to your post.
I like how you give Cushing, Pollard, Ryans and Williams a pass but dump on Robinson just because you don't like him. Nevermind that he was one of the few defenders to actually do his job on that play.
Mike Kerns
LYSB Podcast
Lance Z says we may get some good compensatory picks for Dunta:
That'd be nice.
That'd be nice.
Unfortunately, I dont think it will be in this upcoming draft. I think it is for the 2011 draft. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.
Shaft75
All Pro
Where's your evidence of that?
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
I'm not positive either but I think it's for this upcoming draft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Draft#Compensatory_picks
Of course Wiki isn't completely reliable but I do think this is the correct description.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
What's the difference between each and every one of those players and Dunta last season?
Cushing, Pollard, Ryans, and yes, even Williams all had better seasons than Dunta so naturally they're going to catch less heat over that. Hopefully they all (Dunta included) learned a very important lesson from that play.
Maybe Dunta can apply that lesson someday in the future while playing for another team for the kind of money he wants. Reminds me of Chris Dishman taunting with an interception and fumbling it before crossing the goal line (not at all uncommon). I hated him for that but he didn't do that silly crap again.
It's all good. A win-win situation if you ask me.
Mike Kerns
LYSB Podcast
HuttoKarl
Veteran
They're awarded for free agent losses from the previous year, so losing Dunta could net a pick in the 2011 draft.
2nd tier CB, without a doubt.
And that's the sad state of our secondary, that a 2nd tier CB is our best CB.
I think most of the pro-D.Rob crowd are overlooking one simple fact: he has shown all signs that he doesn't want to be Houston Texan. Minor detail, though...
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
It's based on the number of free agents lost in the previous off-season versus the free agents signed and the value of those signed or lost. Compensatory picks are awarded the year AFTER they free agency season. 2010 comp. picks are based on last years free agent market, so anything from Dunta would be a 2011 pick. The picks are announced towards the end of March and the evaluation is done by a proprietary formula. The formula is not public but speculation says that it is largely based on the free agents new contract value.
There can only be up to 32 compensatory picks given out in each draft. If less than 32 picks are given out, then the remaining will be awarded based on draft position starting from the top and proceeding down until they reach 32. This is also known as a 'supplemental 8th round'.
Scenarios:
So for example, let's assume Dunta is worth a 3rd round pick and Kevin Walter is evaluated to be a 5th round pick. (I know he's worth more...) They both sign with teams other than the Texans.
Let's say the Texans signed a 4th round value player from another team and no one else. The Texans would be awarded one 3rd round compensatory pick in 2011, because the signing of the 4th would cancel the 5th.
If the Texans signed 3rd round and 5th round value players through free agency, they would be awarded no picks at all because they are of equal or greater value to those free agents lost.
If the Texans signed a 3rd and 6th round value players the Texans would be eligible for a net value compensatory pick because they signed players are slightly less value than the ones they lost. This would likely be a 7th round pick and possibly a Mr. Irrelevant. However, it all depends on what other teams qualify as well, and how many other compensatory picks are given out ahead of them.
--------
This is my understanding of the way it works, but I'm by no means an expert, so correct me if I am wrong.
Goatcheese
Texan
Watch the game? I know, crazy, outlandishly, insane idea.
The fans love them, and make excuses for their screw ups. That's the difference.
I see, so they make the exact same mistake, on the exact same play, and only one of them gets bashed for it. That makes a lot of sense. NOT.
We lost our starting corner in an uncapped season for no reason except to spare McNair's pocket book, and we gained... Oh that's right, we didn't gain anything. We just lost our starting corner. I'm seeing a loss there, and no win.
At best we get a 3rd round compensatory pick around #100 in 2011, and that's only if we don't sign a significant free agent. If we sign somebody we get nothing for losing D-Rob.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Yup 2011 and you can't just look at who we lose. Compensatory picks are made on a net loss basis so say you bring in a player with a similar contract as the one Dunta gets then there is no net loss and no pick or a very low one.
Shaft75
All Pro
Dude I was at the game. The only td we allowed through the air was Young to Britt, and guess who was covering Britt... Here is the highlight for reference Britt scores on DUNTA So please tell me where I missed the boat. He also dropped a gift INT that would have turned the game around. What game were you watching Mr. smarty pants?
They are better players at their positions. That's why they get all of the hype.
Like I said, just go ahead and forget that then. I see your point. HOWEVER, quit the using the expression "not". The early 90's have looooooong been over with.
The guy didn't want to be here and we're better off without him. Let's find someone that doesn't have such an inflated view of their own self worth. Him telling himself he's worth top 5 money is like you telling yourself that your argument is legit. You need to step outside of yourself and find an ounce of logic.
We get to move on. That's worth it in my opinion.
Goatcheese
Texan
And? That was 1 of the 3 receptions he allowed.
So you're saying it doesn't matter when they screw up because they're better players?
Were you on the OJ Simpson jury?
I'm bringing it back. Retro is in!
I would tell you this was stupid, but you probably already knew that.
Move on to... an empty roster spot and a gaping hole that now has to be filled by a high draft pick.
Yeah, that's a real win.
