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AJ made Top 10 on NFL's Top 100.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Hmmm, if Brady's offenses had the victories "sewn" up, then why was Adam Vinatieri on the field late in games kicking FG's for the win in 2 of their SB's & 1 of their AFC championship games? That's ST's my friend not offense.
Aside from that, here's another fact, SB's & playoff victories are team accolades not individual accolades & i don't blindly give credit to qb's for winning them all by themselves most people do.
& yeah, i do believe it is an actual fact that Manning was forced to sit out the last game against the Broncos in 2004 & It's not a stretch at all to say that he'd likely still have the record today if that doesn't happen & he plays that entire game.....Especially when he comes back the next week against the exact same team and absolutely destroys them in the playoffs for 4 TD's.
The same thing goes for him being forced to sit by the coaching staff in 2007 in what was the 2nd to last game of the year (last game against the bills i believe). Especially when he comes back 2 weeks later in the playoff & leads his team over that exact same jets team. Anyone who thinks that the Colts weren't going to go 16-0 that year is fooling themselves.
Brady's a HOFer for sure, but isn't a lynchpin to a teams success like Manning is; without him, the Colts are Texans status. I could care less if you agree or not.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Talk about a complete spin. Who the hell do you think gets the team in FG position?
No one did, but Brady has the best playoff win % in post season history and that speaks for itself. You can try to spin that as well, but his performances especially at such a young age cannot be spun. The guy was liquid.
Let's cut out the speculation and stick to facts.
The only one fooling themselves is you for trying to create facts that don't exist. There have been a hell of a lot of teams that have gotten close to 16-0 and lost at the end of the season. It's hard as hell to do that. You can sit here and say woulda coulda shoulda all that you want, but it's a lame argument based off of nothing factual and only what you speculate. The only team that has done this is in the last 25 years os the Patriots and that is fact.
Of course I don't agree with someone that is using baseless speculated stuff throughout this entire argument to state something being true. Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that to act like Manning is the best QB of all time. Facts wise he's had less success than Brady has.
ahhhhh, Mr teX...it must kill you inside that NFL PLAYERS voted your boy #2. I had little doubt that Brady being voted number 1 - by NFL PLAYERS - would be a bur under your saddle.
I would have had no problem if they voted Manning no. 1. I would not have said a thing, because I could easily comprehend the validity of the results. This was not a popularity contest. This was a direct vote by their peers. That is so mind-boggling better than the media, coaches, scouts, or fans voting on it.
What amuses me about Manning fanboys is that they apparently do not watch any other NFL games but the ones Manning plays in. Did Vinatieri kick 90 yard FGs in those games? Hmmmm, somebody - perhaps a QB - had to lead the team down the field during crunch time to put them in position to make those FGs.
You do know that the HEAD COACH makes the call to go for three, yeah? Perhaps because three was the number of points required to win the game?
Manning, for all his genius, often overthinks strategy. He can be so close to the action, so sure of his own abilities, that he will call plays that do not necessarily fit the situation.
Ray Lewis, in his presentation for Brady, pointed out a great play for an example. It was a simple short pass to his HB in a cover 2 (inside two minutes, 3rd down, iirc). Lewis pointed out the genius of this call, because Brady wasn't trying to be the hero, wasn't trying to thread the needle, but was taking what the defense was giving him. And it was a drive that ended up winning the game.
For all your dismissing of Brady, he's only "led three fourth-quarter come-from-behind wins on the world's greatest stage, the Super Bowl."
See, Brady is clutch. Check out this article:
Last time I had a math class, 64% > 45%
Clutch, man. NFL players see it, and so do me and Texecutioner. Why can't you just admit it? Brady and Manning are both badass QBs. Brady is just a teeny-weeny little bit more badass, that's all.
Argue with Ray Lewis. Dude knows QBs. Plays against both of these dudes. And he - and NFL PLAYERS - puts Brady number ONE. #eatingMrteXalive
LOL! This is just delusional, man. Your hatred for Brady blinds any objectivity. He's not a lynchpin? Seriously?
2× Super Bowl MVP
2× AP NFL MVP
Yeah, any old QB can do that...except they don't.
But, as always, it's all in good fun. And Brady is NUMBER ONE.
There's some truth to what Mr. Tex is saying. When Brady went down in '09 with a season ending injury, Matt Cassel stepped in and kept the train a running. IIRC, they barely missed the playoffs that year but had a winning record. I don't think anyone on here would disagree that Mannings backup could lead that team as well as Cassel did. That actually points to the Pats just being a better over all team but also shines light on the fact that Manning is much more critical to his teams success than Brady is to the Pats. And that's a good indicator of why the Pats have 3 SB wins in 4 tries and the colts only have 1 in 2 tries. 
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
There's some truth to what Mr. Tex is saying. When Brady went down in '09 with a season ending injury, Matt Cassel stepped in and kept the train a running. IIRC, they barely missed the playoffs that year but had a winning record. I don't think anyone on here would disagree that Mannings backup could lead that team as well as Cassel did. That actually points to the Pats just being a better over all team but also shines light on the fact that Manning is much more critical to his teams success than Brady is to the Pats. And that's a good indicator of why the Pats have 3 SB wins in 4 tries and the colts only have 1 in 2 tries.
This isn't indicative at all because Matt Cassell has shown that he's a damn good QB period. Did you miss last season with the Chiefs? He just led a team that had been in disarray to the playoffs and helped to make Bowe one of the best WR's in the NFL last season. Matt Cassell was a very good QB that no one knew about that happened to get his shot and capitalized off of it. Stick Cassell on the Colts in that situation and maybe he has success there as well. I'd say the odds are in his favor considering the fact that he has had success with two different teams now.
And this is still a speculated argument again any way. Well so and so was an okay team and so and so other team wouldn't have been good. Unless you can put Cassell on the Colts for an entire season with a good offensive coaching staff than it's a moot point. You go off of what the facts are and Brady and Manning have both played on their teams respectively. One guy has had more success than the other and the NFL players that voted on this felt that Brady was the best player in the league. This wasn't a popularity contest.
There's some truth to what Mr. Tex is saying. When Brady went down in '09 with a season ending injury, Matt Cassel stepped in and kept the train a running. IIRC, they barely missed the playoffs that year but had a winning record. I don't think anyone on here would disagree that Mannings backup could lead that team as well as Cassel did. That actually points to the Pats just being a better over all team but also shines light on the fact that Manning is much more critical to his teams success than Brady is to the Pats. And that's a good indicator of why the Pats have 3 SB wins in 4 tries and the colts only have 1 in 2 tries.
Statistics are there to compare between Brady and Manning. It could be argued that Brady elevates those around him more than Manning does. Manning has had HoF WRs and Pro-Bowl RBs on his offense, which is not the case for Brady. So yeah, "team" is the concept, and Brady has clearly shown he's the slightly better leader of a team.
On the bolded and the Cassel discussion, I think some folks are underestimating the genius of Bill Belichick. He changed the game plan to accommodate Cassel. He kept the passing game short and put Cassel into situations to succeed. Of course the Patriots were a great team. Any SB champion, much less multiple, is obviously a great team.
And Manning won that SB all by himself, too, right? Threw the ball, caught the ball, ran with the ball, and even played defense. Freeney and Sanders were irrelevant....riiiiight.
I've got no problem with folks elevating Manning. I just take exception to haters that try to denigrate Brady. It's the same, tired arguments from the '80's when talking about Montana vs. Marino. Some folks focus so much on statistics that they are unable to comprehend the intangibles like leadership and the ability to inspire those around them to achieve greater things than they might otherwise with another QB.
I guess some folks think Steve Young is better than Joe Montana, too. Why, Young just stepped in and won a Super Bowl, so he's clearly a better QB on a team that carried Montana to four championships. That's what it sounds like when I hear the Cassel discussion.
And like Tex said, Cassel is a good QB. It could easily be argued that he'd succeed with Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, Joseph Addai, Dallas Clark, etc., on his offense (not to mention Jeff Saturday!). To act like these guys had nothing to do with Manning's success just disrespects them completely....and it's pure speculation clouded by manlove.
Ease up on the manlove dude. Y'all read way more into that than I was trying to say. I think Manning might be the best QB to ever play the game, but that doesn't trump winning championships. Football is a team sport and it takes a lot more than one phenominal player to win SB's. Ask Dan Marino or Dan Fouts.Statistics are there to compare between Brady and Manning. It could be argued that Brady elevates those around him more than Manning does. Manning has had HoF WRs and Pro-Bowl RBs on his offense, which is not the case for Brady. So yeah, "team" is the concept, and Brady has clearly shown he's the slightly better leader of a team.
On the bolded and the Cassel discussion, I think some folks are underestimating the genius of Bill Belichick. He changed the game plan to accommodate Cassel. He kept the passing game short and put Cassel into situations to succeed. Of course the Patriots were a great team. Any SB champion, much less multiple, is obviously a great team.
And Manning won that SB all by himself, too, right? Threw the ball, caught the ball, ran with the ball, and even played defense. Freeney and Sanders were irrelevant....riiiiight.
I've got no problem with folks elevating Manning. I just take exception to haters that try to denigrate Brady. It's the same, tired arguments from the '80's when talking about Montana vs. Marino. Some folks focus so much on statistics that they are unable to comprehend the intangibles like leadership and the ability to inspire those around them to achieve greater things than they might otherwise with another QB.
I guess some folks think Steve Young is better than Joe Montana, too. Why, Young just stepped in and won a Super Bowl, so he's clearly a better QB on a team that carried Montana to four championships. That's what it sounds like when I hear the Cassel discussion.
And like Tex said, Cassel is a good QB. It could easily be argued that he'd succeed with Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, Joseph Addai, Dallas Clark, etc., on his offense (not to mention Jeff Saturday!). To act like these guys had nothing to do with Manning's success just disrespects them completely....and it's pure speculation clouded by manlove.
The main point I was trying to make is that if Manning goes down, so do the Colts. It all goes through him. When was the last time we saw a DOMINANT Indy running game? At least 4 years. The Colts simply can't reload and go like the Pats. I'm a HUGE Brady fan, but the Pats can adjust. The Pats, thanks to Belichik, are greater than the sum of their individual parts.
I was just playin' with ya' about the 'manlove'. That's why I put the winky-dude in there.
I think Manning is in the top 5 all time QBs in the NFL, so I'm not diminishing who he is by any means.
However, I think a case could be made that with all the weapons at his disposal, another QB could win with that team. It's not like his teammates are chopped liver. Just look at his offensive weapons. Cassel could win with that team, and I think it's overstating Manning's case to act like it's a slam dunk that nobody else could win with the Colts.
Ask yourself, could Manning have been as successful with the no-name teams that Brady took to the Super Bowls? Brady did not have a HoF-calibur WR like Marvin Harrison for a large chunk of his career.
And let's face it, Brady did not have the luxury of playing the Texans twice a year, much less the weak division that is the AFC south.
With regards to the Colts running game, part of that is on Manning. He calls the plays, so it's obvious that he leans toward the passing game, which is a bit more self-serving than an OC would call it.
As far as Brady, just look at his stats. Youngest QB to make it to 100 wins, enough come-from-behind victories that would rival any QB out there, his offensive stats often surpass Manning, so I tend to think something is clouding judgement when folks refuse to admit that he's a top 5 QB in NFL history, as well. (Not specific to you, but just in general with a lot of the over-the-top hate I see toward Brady.)
And in the end, NFL players agree with me and Tex. They recognize Brady's greatness, which is a lot more powerful statement than the often biased opinions of fans and media.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
& C'mon DB, the list had Romo & Mcnabb on it. 1 of those guys didn't even finish the 2011 season & the other was terrible last year. The list isn't anymore credible than 1 generated by fans & media....especially when it wasn't even clear how guys casted their vote (for career or just the 2011 season on its own).
eriadoc
Texan-American
Kind of like Brady with the Bledsoe deal, huh? Hmm, maybe they have a system of developing good QBs, while other teams just hope to get one in the draft.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Another thing is when you looked at Brady's first 5 or 6 years in the league where he won those SB's, like you said he was doing it with sub par talent at WR. Guys like Troy Brown, Patton, Givens, and even guys like Reche Caldwell of all people. The season they lost to the Colts in the playoffs Caldwell missed an easy screen pass that would have been an easy TD winning the game, and the Colts have no SB if that happens. He did miss it though, and that's neither here or nor there. Brady was not only winning games, but doing it in clutch fascion like you mentioned with very sub par talent. Just great reads and decision making just like Montana used to do. They mirror each other a lot in my eyes and always have.
Then when you finally saw Brady with a true elite WR, his stats blew out the roof. When Moss arrived and got serious about his career again Brady helped turn Moss back into a monster. Brady was also able to utilize Welker as well who hadn't ever had a breakout season in Miami, but people saw the talent. I think last season was the biggest tipping point for Brady though. When Moss couldn't become a factor last year, but Brady was still making plays with other players to the point that NE even got rid of him, and then their offense sky rocketed after that with Welker and a bunch of nobodies became pretty telling at how great Brady really was. Woodhead was a cast off from the Jets who couldn't even make the team, yet he becomes this great offensive weapon on the Pats while the Pats routinely use a trio of average RB's to make their running game effective. They may have lost to the Jets in a close game, but they were the only team last season to absolutely destroy the Jets and the Steelers in the regular season. They said it normally took a full season and half to recover from the injury Brady had, and you could really see how great he was again once he got back to full form. I hope they sign Steve Smith.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Where or how does that prove anything? Drew Bledsoe had also been a very good QB on the Patriots long before BB and his staff ever got there. He had already had several seasons where he threw for over 4,000 yards under an entirely different coaching staff, so I'm not even sure why you felt bringing up Bledsoe had to do with anything. Bledsoe hardly even played under Bill Billicheck and Charlie Weiss. BB didn't become HC of the Patriots until 2000. He then hired Weiss as well. They were never some offensive juggernut right away either. Brady went into the starting role and immediately won a SB. That Pats weren't favorites by any means that year. Brady came in there and immediately changed that franchise. 3 SB's out of 4 years and then multiple playoff appearances after that where they typically were the favorite.
And also look at the history of the rotating door of offensive coaches on the Patriots team after Weiss has left. There offense just seems to have gotten better and better through all of the changes, and BB is and always has been a defensive coach and specialist so let's not act like he's some offensive genius here or that there is some secret system in NE that any QB could excell in when they've had a revolving door of OC's and offensive coaches since Brady has started.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
So Mcnabb has one questionable year on a new team with a coaching staff he didn't get along with and he's all of a sudden chopped liver? I don't think so. Mcnabb's been one of the best QB's over the entire decade. He's routinely taken the Eagles to the playoffs year after year and won a lot of playoff games with a revolving door of WR's there.
Romo has been a pretty good QB in Dallas as well. His numbers have been right on par with Schaub the last two seasons other than his injuries. He may not be elite by any means, but he's a back of the top ten type of QB or at least has been. Saying that Romo isn't any good would be similar to saying that about Matt Schaub.
There are a lot of things I don't agree with on this list, but to discount it is silly. It's by the players and they play against these guys.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Yeah, but again, it still calls into question how guys voted. It appears that some guys voted out of respect for a guys career in totality while others voted strictly on 2011 performance; you can tell that just by the voting of players like eric berry, brandon lloyd, arian foster being on the list where they are & then seeing Ray lewis being a top 5 player & greg Jennings being so low.
I've got no dispute with Brady being #1 if it's strictly on what he did in 2011 b/c he was the better of the 2..that year. But if we're talking about body of work career wise, Then that's where i disagree.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Some of this is true and I didn't agree with Berry or Foster's place either. I terribly disagreed with AP's spot at #3, but then again I'm not the guy trying to tackle that dude, so as a fan I might not have any idea of how hard it is to play on a defense and attempt to shut down AP all game long. He's definitely a lot harder to tackle than CJ and Jamal Charles and right now I'd put both of them over AP, but maybe as defensive player it's an entirely different perspective when facing AP who is a lot stronger and impactful and also has great speed as oppose to two great speed demons who can pick their spots and take off like a rocket.
He's had a better career than Manning. He's got more rings and has beaten Manning in the post season more as well where he didn't throw epic picks to end his team's chances like Manning has on the biggest stage. This is starting to sound more and more like the same debate that used to take place with Marino and Joe Montana when people tried to bring up all of the talent that Joe had to work with in San Fran and act like Marino was better. At the end of the day Joe just had that clutch gene and poise that was better than anyone in that era. He could control the offense and did only what was needed to win which made him great. Brady has been the same type of guy.
eriadoc
Texan-American
You're making my point for me. Belichick took over a team with a very good QB, and he drafted a 6th rounder that no one expected to do anything. They developed him. When Bledsoe went down, Brady stepped in. So it's just the greatness of Brady, right? Well, not so fast. They drafted Cassell, who never saw the field in college. They developed him. So when Brady went down, Cassell led them to a record of either 10 or 11 wins, and they still missed the playoffs, which is crazy.
So either they've had this incredible lightning-strikes-twice thing of hitting on successive QBs from nowehere, or they kinda know what they're doing up there. If it's the former, then hey, good for them. If it's the latter, then it leads to some interesting discussions about who is better, who would be better on what team, and how much the QB vs. coaching has led to the team success that they've experienced.
Personally, I think Manning is a better QB, but I think the Pats are an all-around better organization with better coaching and personnel management, and those things have led to more team success. Of course, this is all picking nits, because two Super Bowl appearances and a win by the Colts is nothing to sneeze at.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I've done nothing of the sort. There have been two examples that have been mentioned here in Cassell and Bledsoe. Your example of Bledsoe was dead wrong because he excelled way before BB ever even got there and hardly even played under BB when he became HC in NE. The other guy in Cassell was also developed by one of the greatest offensive coaches in the NFL in Todd Haley. It took Cassell a year before he had a great season. It also took him several games before he started playing well for NE and he had great talent at WR to work with as well in Moss and Welker. Lets no forget that. Cassell didn't light it up his first season in KC. Once Bowe got on board with Haley's coaching and Cassell had a full off season to work he obviously got the hang of the new offense and showed that his stint in NE was no fluke. The guy can play pretty damn well in this league.
Brady had been there a year and sat on the pine. It's not like they did wonders with him in that time span. He came in and immediately could play though sort of like Matt Ryan. Matt Ryan plays very similar to Tom Brady and while many aren't that high on Ryan I am. Both him and Brady have that leadership knack that is unmatched by hardly any QB's and they don't have to be flashy. They see the field well and have great poise. Those were the same characteristics that Joe Montana had. It doesn't always take the greatest lightning arm to be the best QB in the league, Joe never had that and neither has Brady.
Could Cassell have gotten them to the SB? I highly doubt it. Sure there might be several QB's who could get a NE team to the playoffs, but it takes a special guy to be that good to make it to FOUR SUPER BOWLS. That is just nuts to discount that. Brady not only has been to four, but like DB mentioned, the guy had 3 seperate drives in each one of them in clutch to win the game. That doesn't happen by luck or by accident. Being one of the most clutch QB's in NFL history is one of the most telling stats for any QB.
Yeah, that's the case. It's not as rare as you're trying to make it either. Just look at every time the Eagles have needed to replace Mcnabb temporarily. Andy Reid does a fantastic job at having his QB's prepared and they almost always play well. Great coaching helps, but hell NE has had a revolving door on offensive coaching. To simply try and act like that's why Brady is successful because you want to believe that simply doesn't work because there is no way to prove that it's so. The guy plays on a team and decimates teams. Also, are you going to sit here and honestly tell me that any one of these other QB's could have broken records and thrown for 50 TD's in one season and came a hair away from an undefeated season with the best scoring offense of all time?? Sorry, but only Brady could have done that, and to suggest otherwise is a bias against him. QB's don't pull seasons like that out of their ass because they're just in a great system.
People have been underrating how great of an organization the Colts have been for years. How many times have they had multiple injuries and plugged no name guys in and had a pretty good defense over the last 4 or 5 years. Hell, two years ago when the Colts had that great regular season it was their defense that got overlooked. They were like in the top 6 for points allowed per game. The Colts have kept Manning with a trio of weapons over the years and early on their defenses weren't as good, but that has changed a lot over the last 4 years or so especially when Sanders returned for that SB run they had. Their entire defense changed.
It sure isn't, but winning 3 out of 4 is much better especially when both QB's were talking about were on the biggest stages of their careers where one threw a pick to end their team's chances while the other had 3 come from behind clutch drives to seal the game and the only loss they had wasn't at the hands of his defense where he had the game sealed in that one as well.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
He also did the same thing against the Patriots years ago in the playoffs where he threw like three picks to Ty Law alone. He also threw an epic pick to end his team's chances against the Steelers in their first SB win to Troy Polumolu that got over turned which became the worst NFL call I had ever seen. Troy Polumolu sealed the game with this INT and hit the ground rolled a few times and than let go of it. He had possession for a while and it should have never been overturned. That was 3 post season games right there where Manning threw epic picks to lose the game in Brett Favre type fascion. Does that make him a QB that isn't one of the best of all time? Certainly not, but Tom Brady hasn't had near the amount of game crushing picks like that in the clutch that Manning has. It's why he has 3 rings and Manning has one.
AJ - I was hoping for top 5, but it's a reasonable ranking, espicially in light of injury issues.
Manning vs. Brady - I can't help it, I just hate Brady. (the whole tuck rule thing was the beginning) I respect the man though, he's far better than anyone the Texans have ever had.
I think Brady is top-5, but I can't personally rank him above Manning. If I'm a Texans/Colts fan, I'm 100% certain that Peyton is going to win the game if he gets the ball with a chance to take the lead. I just can't get that feeling with Brady. Perhaps it's just that we see Brady too infrequently.
I'd honestly take Manning as one of my alltime top 3 with the game on the line. (Manning, Elway, Montana).
Manning vs. Brady - I can't help it, I just hate Brady. (the whole tuck rule thing was the beginning) I respect the man though, he's far better than anyone the Texans have ever had.
I think Brady is top-5, but I can't personally rank him above Manning. If I'm a Texans/Colts fan, I'm 100% certain that Peyton is going to win the game if he gets the ball with a chance to take the lead. I just can't get that feeling with Brady. Perhaps it's just that we see Brady too infrequently.
I'd honestly take Manning as one of my alltime top 3 with the game on the line. (Manning, Elway, Montana).
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
yeah, there in lies the problem...people are in love with Brady's story whereas Manning is looked upon as "well he was the overall pick in the draft, he was supposed to do what he's doing".
& Lol, Big whoop Brady's edge is 2-1 head to head in the playoffs.......the 1 game manning has won, Brady threw an "epic" pick to close out that championship game.
You keep bringing up that 1 play like it's the only thing the guy is known for & that more than anything shows your bias. Dude has been one of the toughest & most consistent qb's to ever play, tops damn near every positive category for passing, 4 MVP awards & is really the last of his kind in terms of calling his own plays.
Manning is the piece, Brady's a piece.
gary
Hall of Fame
Manning still might win another one or two though.
Mr teX said:
I try to avoid using the Super Bowl wins for comparison. It's too much of a team accomplishment to give all the credit to one man (a perspective that seems lost on Manning fanboys who seem to think he single-handedly won his Super Bowl).
I look at what each QB did during their Super Bowls and careers, and it is very clear that Brady was clutch when it mattered the most. The Pats were not winning any of those Super Bowls if Brady did not nut up at the end.
He is also statistically as good as or better than Manning in many key areas for QBs. Those stats are earned, not passed out like Halloween candy.
Mr teX said:
Well, this is true. They still don't suck as bad as the Texans, but it's close to a draw.
Mr teX said:
By your logic, Marino is better than Montana, yeah? Montana had Jerry Rice and an awesome defense, not to mention one of the greatest coaches in the history of the league. So it's obvious that any QB could have won those four rings with the 49ers...
You can argue about who and who should not be on the list, but this is about two players who clearly should be at the top. There is no argument that neither Manning nor Brady should be on the list.
So it comes down to which QB the players chose over the other. That's a simple question and the players have spoken.
Ray Lewis will go down as one of the greatest LBs in NFL history, and he was pimping Brady. C'mon, man, you know that says a lot. He's faced both of those cats on multiple occasions, including playoffs, and I can't dismiss his perspective because the poll might be flawed at the bottom.
And one last thing, from Joe Cool himself about Tom Brady:
"I never like to say the greatest of all time, but when he is done, he will be the best one who ever played."
~ Joe Montana
And let's not forget one QB has played his entire career in a dome while the other plays his home games in a severe-weather influenced outdoor northern stadium.
In spite of that dome advantage, Brady still takes the lead in many key QB stats:
In spite of that dome advantage, Brady still takes the lead in many key QB stats:
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
They also weren't winning any if Vinatieri gets a bad case of the shanks either. Brady could've driven them down to the 1 inch line & if Vinatieri Mike Vandejagt's any one of those kicks, the pats fall short, it's just as simple as that.
& Lol, Ray Lewis was just pimping Manning coming in at # 8 in the "greatest players in the history of the NFL" list that the NFL network made. Plenty of current & former players spoke on that as well. What's your point?
Montana solified his greatness by driving for TD's to put his team ahead for good in 2 of his SB victories & when he didn't have to lead his teams in that fashion, his teams just outright dominated in the other SB's to where there was no doubt. The Catch. The "Jon Candy" drive against the bengals. People remember those drives b/c they ended with him taking his team the full length of the field to score 7. Noone remembers any drive Brady led the pats through to score 3 pts. Furthermore, what's the highlights they show the most when they talk of the pats dynasty? Vinatieri kicking in the snow..... vinatieri kicking the game winner against the Rams....& Vinatieri kicking the game winner against Carolina.
He's good, but he's not Montana. & truthfully the only reason Marino isn't on par with Montana in my eyes is b/c he never led his team to a SB victory....that & his last few years were pretty atrocious. This isn't the case with manning as people try to liken him to marino in the comparisons. He's already got a championship & is still playing well.....like brady.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Personally I think Manning and Brady both suck. So there!! 
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Personally I think Manning and Brady both suck. So there!!
Agreed! Charlie Batch got snubbed big time!
eriadoc
Texan-American
*sigh* There's nothing dead wrong about my example, because I didn't claim anything with regard to Bledsoe. I was merely using him as a reference point in time. How is that dead wrong? Better yet, what did you think I was asserting about Bledsoe?
I'm not even sure what the hell you're disagreeing with me about.
Actually, never mind. Carry on with the thread. It's supposed to be about AJ anyway.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
lol
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
My man db i see you conviently neglected to highlight this below in the article:
His '07 season already stands as the second-most efficient in NFL history, with a 117.18 passer rating (behind Manning's 121.11 in 2004).
Still doesn't tell you anything if you don't watch how these guys operate. 1 guy is dumping it off 5 yds & under & letting his WR's YAC it up for him as part of the offense....The other is constantly challenging you down field. The guy throwing it downfield.......& having success is more impressive.
We can play this all day long. If Dwight Clark doesn't make that spectacular catch, Montana loses a Super Bowl.
QBs do not win games by themselves. They need other players to succeed at their positions. However, as leaders and as QBs, they can put players in position to succeed at their positions.
See, the thing is that Montana had to score those TDs to win the game. Do you honestly think he would have thrown for TDs if a FG would have won the game?
And btw, when did Montana (or Brady) ever throw an INT to cost them a Super Bowl? Manning did that all by himself.
'eh, Ray Lewis is not going to say those things unless he means it.
Ray Lewis' opinion >>>> average football fan every time. It is what it is.
Mr teX said:
I did not leave it out. Manning is in my top 5 of all time, so I have no desire to diminish his achievements.
And that is the difference between you and I. You refuse the greatness of Brady, while I embrace the greatness of Manning but put him one step behind Brady.
Perhaps if Brady had the WRs that Manning has had his entire career, much less played ALL of his home games in the comfy, stat-padded inducing, confines of a dome stadium, he'd be throwing more long passes, as well.
eriadoc said:
Indeed, but it's the off-season during a lock out, so you've got to give us a little understanding here.
Personally, I thought AJ should have been top 5, but the Revis argument is interesting, all things considered.
If we have a season, we have a very good chance to settle the Manning vs. Brady debate. Manning has no idea when he'll be ready to play after off-season neck surgery.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I don't see how one season would solve this debate considering the fact that both players will most likely go on to play another 4 or 5 years at least. Their bodies of work will be determined when they both retire.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
To act like Tom Brady is just some dump off screen pass thrower and isn't a guy who throws down the field frequently is about as uninformed as can get on the guy or the Patriots offense for that matter. What the hell do you think Moss been doing the last few seasons for them with all of the TD's he's gotten? He throws all over the field and is one of the most accurate QB's in the league with the long ball. You're grasping at straws big time here. The Patriots are more of a passing offense.
And I can't believe that you actually knocked Brady because he led drives down the field where the FG kicker hit a FG. That's a very lame argument, and it's like you're completely forgetting that Manning has won a ton of games the same way and has had the same kicker that Brady had for several years as well. It's not the QB's fault that all they need to win a game by is a FG. That's a positive for the QB and the offense if anything, because that means they were closer to the other team's score and didn't need a TD to win and weren't further behind. I can't believe you actually wrote that thinking it was a valid point honestly.
I agree but there's really not a lot else to talk about.
Mr. Tex, that's a horrible arguement to make. Manning dumps it off on 5-10 yd crossing routes with boring regularity. Especially when they had Edge. It's also called taking what the D gives you and that leads to success and...um...Super Bowl victories...