Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!

Defensive Ends

Ole Miss Texan

Ole Miss Texan

Hall of Fame
Defensive End may be a critical position for us to draft next year, enough to where we could spend a 1st rounder again. Below is a generic list of some of the top DE's that could be in the draft (* denotes underclassmen)

I have a question for those great at scouting college talent that's really important to keep in mind when watching the college football season. What's the best way to determine a 4-3 DE vs. a 3-4 DE vs. a 3-4 OLB???? Other questions that would be great if they could be answered: What should we look for in a DE to compliment Mario? (speed rusher?) What's the best way to scout for speed, how quick they are off the snap, their motor, run stopping, coverage, etc.?

Mainly, I don't want to be watching a lot of George Sylvie (for example) to see if he'd be a good fit on the Texans if he's just going to end up being a 3-4 outside linebacker in the NFL. Thanks for the help guys.

a list:
Defensive Ends:
1. George Selvie, South Florida*
2. Tyson Jackson, LSU
3. Greg Hardy, Ole Miss*
4. Greg Middleton, Indiana*
5. Michael Johnson, Georgia Tech
6. Maurice Evans, Penn State*
7. Brian Orakpo, Texas
8. Auston English, Oklahoma*
9. Tim Jamison, Michigan
10. Ricky Sapp, Clemson*
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
Defensive End may be a critical position for us to draft next year, enough to where we could spend a 1st rounder again. Below is a generic list of some of the top DE's that could be in the draft (* denotes underclassmen)

I have a question for those great at scouting college talent that's really important to keep in mind when watching the college football season. What's the best way to determine a 4-3 DE vs. a 3-4 DE vs. a 3-4 OLB???? Other questions that would be great if they could be answered: What should we look for in a DE to compliment Mario? (speed rusher?) What's the best way to scout for speed, how quick they are off the snap, their motor, run stopping, coverage, etc.?

Mainly, I don't want to be watching a lot of George Sylvie (for example) to see if he'd be a good fit on the Texans if he's just going to end up being a 3-4 outside linebacker in the NFL. Thanks for the help guys.

a list:
Defensive Ends:
1. George Selvie, South Florida*
2. Tyson Jackson, LSU
3. Greg Hardy, Ole Miss*
4. Greg Middleton, Indiana*
5. Michael Johnson, Georgia Tech
6. Maurice Evans, Penn State*
7. Brian Orakpo, Texas
8. Auston English, Oklahoma*
9. Tim Jamison, Michigan
10. Ricky Sapp, Clemson*
Click to expand...

Sometimes a 3-4 OLB was a 4-3 DE in college. However, sometimes they are interchangeable initially upon entry to the NFL. 3-4 DE's are usually larger guys who might be an undersized NT or a larger 4-3 DE who excels at engaging the OT.

Mario is pretty much a "complete" DE, at least in terms of other DE's in the NFL. However, Mario is NOT a speed rusher. Mario's best strength is just that, his strength. He has great arm length and upper-body strength. This is why you see Mario do well with the "Bull-Rush" as compared to someone like the stereotypical "Freeney rusher." The guys who excel at neither really are generally regulated to the 3-4 DE.

The Texans need a "speed" rusher on the other end of Mario, but there is more to pass rush than the "other" DE. Essentially, we have two UT's playing next to each other, playing next to Mario. A great, penetrating UT is a vital component to a successful DL and pass-rush, but two UT's do not go well with each other as they create a small defensive front and struggle to engage the Guards, in essence creating more wash with the LB's. A prototypical super successful DL (IMO should) comprise of one complete DE who can be compared to the defense's "feature back". (Go with me) Next to that player is generally the UT, the Warren Sapp/Okoye/Travis Johnson mold for a DT. The DT on the other side is generally more of a NT, or a larger body T who can fill space and control a "help" blocker. These are guys of larger size, and those fans who actually understand the complexities of a defensive front on this MB have hopes that Okam is that NT type DT for our team. The NT will be better at stopping the run that any other player on the DL, or theoretically should be. Think of like a Vince Wolfok type NT; it's not quite the same as he is a 3-4 DT, but that is the generic role you hope to have one, and only one, of your DT's fill. The final piece to the DL should be an edge rusher or a speed rusher. These are guys who can be undersized, and may not have top end strength. The important thing to look for with these guys is 5 and 10 yard splits as far as times go. However, I am a big proponent of past college success. I truly believe that sacks are a natural talent. Some players are just more adept at it than others. Same thing with how some soccer players just have a nack for scoring goals. Some players just get to the QB, regardless of physical statistics and measurments. The example I love to use is Elvis Dummerville. I was the first person on this board to talk about him at all, and I hyped him up all year and right up until the draft. Nothing about him stands out physically really, but he just gets to the QB. He is a sack artist. That is what your "other" DE needs to be, and usually they are considered undersized edge rushers.

This team sits at:

Complete DE = Mario
UT = Okoye/Travis Johnson
NT = Okam (hopefully)
Sack Artists = Kalu/Cochran/Colvin
3-4 DE = Weaver

We start a group of guys consisting of:

Complete DE (Mario); two UT's (Okoye and TJ); 3-4 DE (Weaver)

This is why our defense is getting abused. We have a weakness in the middle of our line with two UT's, and a weakness on the edge with a 3-4 DE.

We will see this season if Okam can fill the starting gap of NT with our team, but regardless, we still will have a pretty big void at our other DE spot.

Also, don't ever worry about a DE's ability to drop back into coverage. If they do that, give up on the scheme. A DE should be able to cover the flats and hold contain, but DE's are not going to drop back 7 yards often. They will at times on a blitz from the LBs, but their spot is being filled and the hope/thought there is that there won't be enough time for the QB to read the DE coverage. Anyway, that's too much detail to cover.

So, now to your list. I've left the guys you should really focus on in terms of who fits our need at DE.

George Selvie, South Florida*
Greg Hardy, Ole Miss*
Greg Middleton, Indiana*
Michael Johnson, Georgia Tech
Maurice Evans, Penn State*
Ricky Sapp, Clemson*


I hope this helps you.
 
we need the best player available in the 1st rd. who best upgrades this team, right now I'd have to give the nod to RB position.

I would like to see the Texans find a small school prospect with a penchant for making plays all over the field. somebody imposing that plays with balance, can twist or stunt, quick off the edge & smooth change of direction. in other words a complete football player not one dimensional. ideally size is important for the position, I would like someone tall & athletic like Mario 6-5 or even 6-6 260-270 lbs. but just as long as they are proportionally built (stocky, power builds for shorter ends) it doens't seem to matter.

A Jared Allen for example, 6-6 267. he was selected #126 (near end of 4th rd.) in 04. instead the Texans traded about three picks to move up into the 1st for Jason Babin #27 too short for the NFL DE position & tried to project him into a 3-4 OLB. not saying tweeners don't or can't make it but I would go after a pure pass rushing end in the Allen mold.

Justin Tuck was selected #74 in 2005 (3rd rd.) 6-5 274. another tall rangy speed rusher with excellent body control.

Mark Anderson is a little more compact 6-4 255 late 5th as oppossed to very compact Elvis Dumerville 5-11 260 4th rd. ok give me one of each.

Going back a few years to 2003 a small school prospect form Troy State name of Osi Umenyiora 2nd rd. pick of the New York Giants has done pretty well for himself @ 6-3 261 he fits nicely in the edge speed rushing role.

Looking forward to the 09 draft the top 1st rd. prospect DE in the Allen/Tuck mold is Michael Johnson Georgia Tech (don't expect him to be there when the Texans select or we just had a horrific season). otherwise I just can't get excited about this positional group until the later rds. maybe someone like a Jamaal Westerman, 6-2 265 Rutgers in the 4th I don't know right now just have to wait & see how the College season plays out. regardless the Texans will be in the market once again in search of a player or two to fill the need @ RDE.
 
YoungTexanFan said:
This is why our defense is getting abused. We have a weakness in the middle of our line with two UT's, and a weakness on the edge with a 3-4 DE.

We will see this season if Okam can fill the starting gap of NT with our team, but regardless, we still will have a pretty big void at our other DE spot.
Click to expand...

I was making this argument before the draft when we were talking about Scheme.

Demeco is kinda small. He needs at least one, possibly two, space eating NT's in front of him to soak up the blockers and allow him to penetrate to the running back. But I was concerned because ... I think it was Franklin... was interviewed and basically said that our scheme was to have two small DT's that could run and pursue.

Well, if you're going to have two smaller DT's in the middle of the line, you need to have a big thumper type of Mike. And that worried me.

I was really surprised and happy when they took Okam. With Okam, hopefully, he'll be able to be that NT that we need to hold the fort in the middle of the line and that should free up Amobi and Demeco.
 
beerlover said:
we need the best player available in the 1st rd. who best upgrades this team, right now I'd have to give the nod to RB position.
Click to expand...

Agreed with the whole post. You can find some top talents from round 1-3 and if you're lucky round 4. But DE is a premier position in the NFL, and is harder to spot later in the draft then a RB, or any other position in the backfield beside CB and QB. If there were both a top 3 RB and top 3 DE available in the draft that slipped to us, then I would take the DE everytime in the 1st round, even if the RB is rated higher.
 
YoungTexanFan said:
Sometimes a 3-4 OLB was a 4-3 DE in college. However, sometimes they are interchangeable initially upon entry to the NFL. 3-4 DE's are usually larger guys who might be an undersized NT or a larger 4-3 DE who excels at engaging the OT.

Mario is pretty much a "complete" DE, at least in terms of other DE's in the NFL. However, Mario is NOT a speed rusher. Mario's best strength is just that, his strength. He has great arm length and upper-body strength. This is why you see Mario do well with the "Bull-Rush" as compared to someone like the stereotypical "Freeney rusher." The guys who excel at neither really are generally regulated to the 3-4 DE.

The Texans need a "speed" rusher on the other end of Mario, but there is more to pass rush than the "other" DE. Essentially, we have two UT's playing next to each other, playing next to Mario. A great, penetrating UT is a vital component to a successful DL and pass-rush, but two UT's do not go well with each other as they create a small defensive front and struggle to engage the Guards, in essence creating more wash with the LB's. A prototypical super successful DL (IMO should) comprise of one complete DE who can be compared to the defense's "feature back". (Go with me) Next to that player is generally the UT, the Warren Sapp/Okoye/Travis Johnson mold for a DT. The DT on the other side is generally more of a NT, or a larger body T who can fill space and control a "help" blocker. These are guys of larger size, and those fans who actually understand the complexities of a defensive front on this MB have hopes that Okam is that NT type DT for our team. The NT will be better at stopping the run that any other player on the DL, or theoretically should be. Think of like a Vince Wolfok type NT; it's not quite the same as he is a 3-4 DT, but that is the generic role you hope to have one, and only one, of your DT's fill. The final piece to the DL should be an edge rusher or a speed rusher. These are guys who can be undersized, and may not have top end strength. The important thing to look for with these guys is 5 and 10 yard splits as far as times go. However, I am a big proponent of past college success. I truly believe that sacks are a natural talent. Some players are just more adept at it than others. Same thing with how some soccer players just have a nack for scoring goals. Some players just get to the QB, regardless of physical statistics and measurments. The example I love to use is Elvis Dummerville. I was the first person on this board to talk about him at all, and I hyped him up all year and right up until the draft. Nothing about him stands out physically really, but he just gets to the QB. He is a sack artist. That is what your "other" DE needs to be, and usually they are considered undersized edge rushers.

This team sits at:

Complete DE = Mario
UT = Okoye/Travis Johnson
NT = Okam (hopefully)
Sack Artists = Kalu/Cochran/Colvin
3-4 DE = Weaver

We start a group of guys consisting of:

Complete DE (Mario); two UT's (Okoye and TJ); 3-4 DE (Weaver)

This is why our defense is getting abused. We have a weakness in the middle of our line with two UT's, and a weakness on the edge with a 3-4 DE.

We will see this season if Okam can fill the starting gap of NT with our team, but regardless, we still will have a pretty big void at our other DE spot.

Also, don't ever worry about a DE's ability to drop back into coverage. If they do that, give up on the scheme. A DE should be able to cover the flats and hold contain, but DE's are not going to drop back 7 yards often. They will at times on a blitz from the LBs, but their spot is being filled and the hope/thought there is that there won't be enough time for the QB to read the DE coverage. Anyway, that's too much detail to cover.

So, now to your list. I've left the guys you should really focus on in terms of who fits our need at DE.

George Selvie, South Florida*
Greg Hardy, Ole Miss*
Greg Middleton, Indiana*
Michael Johnson, Georgia Tech
Maurice Evans, Penn State*
Ricky Sapp, Clemson*


I hope this helps you.
Click to expand...

Great freakin' post. This should be copied and pasted into all of the "What's wrong with our defense?" threads.

As you implied, Mario would be best suited playing on the strong side. Like last year, although a monster in the run game on the weak side, he seemed to be most effective rushing the passer at LDE this preseason. I wouldn't mind it as much if Weaver was actually good against the run, but he seems to have lost this ability as well.

The DT's can both be undersized, but you better be damn sure that they can get penetration consistently, else your Mike's going to be overrun. A lot is hingeing on Amobi's ability to develop into a Warren Sapp calibre player. But as it is now, I see it as a poorly-constructed defensive line.
 
Rex King said:
Great freakin' post. This should be copied and pasted into all of the "What's wrong with our defense?" threads.

As you implied, Mario would be best suited playing on the strong side. Like last year, although a monster in the run game on the weak side, he seemed to be most effective rushing the passer at LDE this preseason. I wouldn't mind it as much if Weaver was actually good against the run, but he seems to have lost this ability as well.

The DT's can both be undersized, but you better be damn sure that they can get penetration consistently, else your Mike's going to be overrun. A lot is hingeing on Amobi's ability to develop into a Warren Sapp calibre player. But as it is now, I see it as a poorly-constructed defensive line.
Click to expand...

And it take it even further, Ryans will not hold up for long with our current DT's. Ryans is considered "undersized" or more-so a MLB in the body of an OLB. He is a top notch MLB, don't get me wrong, but the physical toll he takes will show soon. His production has been very high every year, but that can also be attributed to, in part, a poor run-stopping group of DT's (UT's).
 
I think a perfect example of the 3-4 tweener is Brian Orakpo of Texas this year. He's under 270. He plays best when he's in space. He's a sideline to sideline guy, who is best at chasing down the play from the back side. Some 3-4 team will want to sniff him as an OLB come combine time. On a 4-3 team he's a situational pass rush specialist. On a 3-4 team, with a little grooming, development and luck, you get a Kevin Green style guy in a box. And..he has long arms from what I see on television.

9:50 mark
http://www.bevosports.com/tag/brian-orakpo/

http://texas.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?Player=36641
 
Last edited:
YoungTexanFan said:
And it take it even further, Ryans will not hold up for long with our current DT's. Ryans is considered "undersized" or more-so a MLB in the body of an OLB. He is a top notch MLB, don't get me wrong, but the physical toll he takes will show soon. His production has been very high every year, but that can also be attributed to, in part, a poor run-stopping group of DT's (UT's).
Click to expand...


Demeco is about the same size as most 4-3 MLB's. So are our DT's.

We're not undersized. We're average.

Not a lot of 4-3 teams have 250lb+ MLB's and 320lb+ DT's in the rotation.

A Frank Okam is not common for 4-3 teams....

Look around the leauge...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Polo said:
Demeco is about the same size as most 4-3 MLB's. So are our DT's.

We're not undersized. We're average.

Not a lot of 4-3 teams have 250lb+ MLB's and 320lb+ DT's in the rotation.

A Frank Okam is not common for 4-3 teams....

Look around the leauge...
Click to expand...

You are concerned far too much with a number such as weight, and that is why your assessment falls a little short. A UT is much different than a NT when you break it down. No, Okam's aren't common. Look at what happened to Shaun Rodgers. That is how the Okams' of the league go these days. However, having a 305 UT and a 315 NT is the difference. The NT's are simply geared to stopping the run and the UT's are simply geared more for penetration. With DeMeco, he is undersized. I love the guy and he is a kick-ass MLB, but he is what he is. He close to average in the league if you are going strictly off some numbers such as weight as you seem to be only doing.
 
YoungTexanFan said:
You are concerned far too much with a number such as weight, and that is why your assessment falls a little short. No, Okam's aren't common. Look at what happened to Shaun Rodgers. That is how the Okams' of the league go these days. However, having a 305 UT and a 315 NT is the difference. With DeMeco, he is undersized. I love the guy and he is a kick-ass MLB, but he is what he is. He close to average in the league if you are going strictly off some numbers such as weight as you seem to be only doing.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but this post made no sense. Contradictions everywhere.


What is your definition of "undersized" if it's not dealing with height and weight ?

Please fill me in.

And save your time trying to explain the functions of different positions. I have a pretty firm grasp on that. That really has no relevance to a player being undersized anyways. Not sure why you mentioned that.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
On the official site, Okoye is listed at 302; Travis Johnson is listed at 303 officially. They are both UT's. Since we both agree that Okam is an anomaly in the rotation -342- we will look at a few of the more well known DT's who aren't known for shooting the gap. John Henderson is 335. Haneysworth is 320. Pat Williams is 317.

The point isn't so much about the weight, but you do see the bigger guys anchor D-Lines. Look at the Jags and Titans D-lines, two of the best in the league, and they have a few big boys in their rotation. TJ and Okoye are average in weight, but they both play a position where other guys in the league are around 290. That difference isn't much. Now, however, the difference between Okoye at 302 and Williams at 317 is huge. They also play different roles, which is what I was explaining in my previous posts. Hope this helps.
 
YoungTexanFan said:
On the official site, Okoye is listed at 302; Travis Johnson is listed at 303 officially. They are both UT's. Since we both agree that Okam is an anomaly in the rotation -342- we will look at a few of the more well known DT's who aren't known for shooting the gap. John Henderson is 335. Haneysworth is 320. Pat Williams is 317.

The point isn't so much about the weight, but you do see the bigger guys anchor D-Lines. Look at the Jags and Titans D-lines, two of the best in the league, and they have a few big boys in their rotation. TJ and Okoye are average in weight, but they both play a position where other guys in the league are around 290. That difference isn't much. Now, however, the difference between Okoye at 302 and Williams at 317 is huge. They also play different roles, which is what I was explaining in my previous posts. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...


Still contradicting yourself.

Naming a few big guys doesn't impress me. I can name a hell of a lot more guys in a 4-3 rotation closer to TJ and Okoye's size range vs. guys who are over 315. The

The phrase you are looking for isn't "undersized". What you are trying to say is that their skill sets are not suited for stopping the run.

And LOL @ you trying to explain positional roles....

Undersized implies that they are too small...or are smaller than average...

Neither our MLB nor are DT's are "undersized"....

TJ doesn't have the skill set of a run stuffing DT, he's more geared toward penetration...I get that....

But that doesn't make him "undersized"...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Polo said:
Naming a few big guys doesn't impress me. I can name a hell of a lot more guys closer to TJ and Okoye's weight range vs. guys who are over 315.

The phrase you are looking for isn't "undersized". What you are trying to say is that their skill sets are not suited for stopping the run.

And LOL @ you trying to explain positional roles....

Undersized implies that they are too small...or are smaller than average...

Neither our MLB nor are DT's are "undersized"....

TJ doesn't have the skill set of a run stuffing DT, he's more geared toward penetration...I get that....

But that doesn't make him "undersized"...
Click to expand...

That's all I was saying. I was criticizing you or someone else for using weight as the sole judgement. I threw out a few names to disprove that. On average, DT's are under 305. However, most top notch DL's have a bigger guy that excels at stopping the run and play that different role we both are talking about. That's all I was trying to get at with the earlier posts. Someone was confused, so I went a different route with an explanation. However, for the NT side of the DT, our guys are slightly "undersized". However, they are just fine for what their roles are, we just can't have two of them.
 
YoungTexanFan said:
However, for the NT side of the DT, our guys are slightly "undersized".
Click to expand...

I went back and looked at the 4-3 teams within the top 10 run stopping teams from last yr...

Most of those guys Nose tackles are are around the 315ish area, so I can roll with your above statement...TJ may be slightly undersized compared to others at his postition....

However...a lot of those same teams had DT's smaller than Amobi and TJ....I'm talking 280's smaller...

Demeco though is another story....He's definitely not undersized....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Just because a player has average weight respective to his position doesn't mean he can't be undersized or oversized. Prototypical size is a better indication of what your trying to look for in a position vs. average size.

Different teams and defensive schemes have different 'prototypical' sizes for their players. Nobody really has any clue as to what our defense is.

Weight isn't necessarily a great indicator to size though (sounds odd saying it). For example, Demeco Ryans and Patrick Willis are roughly the same height/weight and now Ryans may actually edge him out. However Willis is actually a bigger player and a more typical hardnosed LB (ala Ray Lewis). Ryans is built differently than Willis. That doesn't necessarily mean one is going to be better than the other, both are incredible LB's.

Depending on the scheme the team employs, a player may be prototypical size... but for another scheme he may be undersized.

I have no idea what we're doing but what I do know is that we need OKAM to become a force or we need to find a DT that can take on that role. We need a big run stuffer up there.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
Weight isn't necessarily a great indicator to size though (sounds odd saying it). For example, Demeco Ryans and Patrick Willis are roughly the same height/weight and now Ryans may actually edge him out. However Willis is actually a bigger player and a more typical hardnosed LB (ala Ray Lewis). Ryans is built differently than Willis. That doesn't necessarily mean one is going to be better than the other, both are incredible LB's.
Click to expand...


Height and weight are not only great indicators for being over or undersized, but they are the only indicators.


Their style of play has nothing to do with being undersized.

We can debate who's style of play is suited for what position all day, but this undersized stuff is mis-leading IMHO.

Not sure what you guys definition of "undersized" is if you aren't talking about actual "size".


Prototypical size and average size don't mean much anyways. We need guys who have the skill sets to do it....I could care less if those guys were 2 inches tall and weighed 15oz...

Frank Okam being big doesn't mean he's a great run stopper...It certainly helps and big guys like that clog lanes, but I'm more concerened with skill set vs. size....Esepcially after having looked at other teams' rosters..

"Size" wise our guys are right on par with the 4-3 teams around the leauge. Johnson is a BIT smaller than SOME 4-3 NT's...Okoye and Ryans are average "size" wise...

And on another note, if you guys actually go look most 4-3 teams have DT's on their rosters smaller than both Okoye and Johnson...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Polo said:
Prototypical size and average size don't mean much anyways. We need guys who have the skill sets to do it....I could care less if those guys were 2 inches tall and weighed 15oz...

Frank Okam being big doesn't mean he's a great run stopper...It certainly helps and big guys like that clog lanes, but I'm more concerened with skill set vs. size....Esepcially after having looked at other teams' rosters..
Click to expand...

I took that as YTF's main point about the d-line's skill sets being mismatched. Weaver more of a 3-4 end, Mario more of a strong side end. TJ was "supposed" to be a gap-penetrator/3-tech when he came out of college. He doesn't really look like that, but he doesn't look like a lane-clogging NT/1-tech either. He looks like just a guy.

IMO, there is good reason for emphasis on size/strength, though, concerning our division and the team we struggled against. The top defenses against the run last year were either 3-4 or did have a lane-clogger. We had major problems with getting man-handled in the middle by more physical teams like the Titans and Jags. An undersized guy can have a great skillset, but that won't matter if he's three yards behind the LOS by the time he disengages. Those teams also use tight splits, making it more difficult for a UT to penetrate.
 
Polo, I really like that you went back and edited your post completely after the conversation had ended. That speaks volumes about you.

Anyway, you seem to be missing the original point, which I've tried explaining two different ways. How about this: Yao Ming weighed over 300lbs when he was drafted. Shaq also weighed a little over 300 when drafted. Who is the "bigger" player? People carry weight differently, and what I was pointing out is that you are only focused on that number. That isn't an accurate representation of size in some instances. Yao was undersized. Shaq was oversized. Both are over 7'2. If you look at Willis, he is a much bulkier player than Ryans, though their measurements may be similar. Ryans has the build of an OLB more than the "prototypical" MLB. TJ is undersized for his spot (I think/hope he is trying to play the NT) because of his slightly lesser weight, but more-so of how he carries it and uses it, and that does make a difference. Yes, TJ weights over 300, but the top NT's in the league are bigger, and play bigger. Back to a basketball reference. Sir Charles Barkley vs. Raef LaFrenz. Who's bigger? Who's undersized?

I'm using a lot of different examples to help you out, and I appreciate the support from Rex King and Ole Miss with trying to explain it in even more ways. Hopefully a basketball analogy will clear it up.
 
watching Ball St. Navy right now & there was a nice play made by DE Brandon Crawford. then it was mentioned he is 32. as in years old. seems he took 12 years off from HS to College while spending time in the Navy/Marines. talk about a man amongst boys, it made me wonder about age as a measureable?
 
Everette Brown 6-4 250 out of Florida State is a good defensive end. He is a redshirt junior.

64 tackles, 25 TFL, 9.5 sacks, 1 FF, and 1 blocked kick over the last 2 years.

Should be great this year.
 
Are their any monsters like Haloti Ngata in this draft?

ie big guys that can play 3-4 DE/NT/DT

Sedrick Ellis was this type in the last draft
 
The1ApplePie said:
Are their any monsters like Haloti Ngata in this draft?

ie big guys that can play 3-4 DE/NT/DT

Sedrick Ellis was this type in the last draft
Click to expand...


Nobody as good as those two.

Terrance Taylor (Michigan) & Al Woods (LSU) are pretty good run stuffers.

Fili Moala (USC) & DeMarcus Granger (Oklahoma) are the top two DT's in the nation, I think. But I'm not sure either is really suited for the 3-4.
 
bah007 said:
Nobody as good as those two.

Terrance Taylor (Michigan) & Al Woods (LSU) are pretty good run stuffers.

Fili Moala (USC) & DeMarcus Granger (Oklahoma) are the top two DT's in the nation, I think. But I'm not sure either is really suited for the 3-4.
Click to expand...

are the Texans switching to the 3-4? if so we already have our NT in Okam :texflag:
 
TexansSeminole said:
Everette Brown 6-4 250 out of Florida State is a good defensive end. He is a redshirt junior.

64 tackles, 25 TFL, 9.5 sacks, 1 FF, and 1 blocked kick over the last 2 years.

Should be great this year.
Click to expand...

2 sacks in the 47-7 win against Tennessee Chattanooga last night. That gives him 2 on the season. (2 and a half tackles for loss)

Next week we got Wake Forest at home, so it will be a test.
 
Last edited:
I still support Selvie. He tore our red-shirt freshman to pieces last night. He split some double teams with the RB help. He was very quick off the ball. He needs another 15-20 pounds on him though. 240 is just too light.
 
Vance Walker from GT if we needed a new NT otherwise English from OU or Orakpo from UT. I would say more then ever I am for spending the first 2 picks on SS/FS and then a DE/RB in the 3rd. Davis or Foster could fall to the 3rd/4th or Matt Shaughnessy for a DE if all else fails BPA's
 
Last edited:
Been really focused on the Texans need @ DE but you know the more I look at it the more I think they should fire Smith & change schemes back to a 3-4. Its been just very difficult for the Texans to address RDE even with the 1st pick & Mario Williams you still need that speed edge rusher & those best suited are the 34 OLB's. for example this upcoming draft has Ray Maualuga, Southern Cal, 6016 260. could he project to RDE in a 4-3? would you use a top 10 pick on a player you must move to a new position? or does he just fall into the hands of another 3-4 team missing pass rush?

After 4 + years looking @ College prospects for the NFL/Texans the single hardest thing I've had is projecting players to the next level @ a new position. it happens all the time but has to be a perfect situation. my gut feeling says try to evaluate a player at his natural position first, then see how he fits. when doing bpa approach this can be quite confusing so other than a top 5 pick like DE George Selvie I predict the Texans contiune to struggle addressing pass rush via the draft unless they change defenses. :glasshalffull:
 
beerlover said:
Been really focused on the Texans need @ DE but you know the more I look at it the more I think they should fire Smith & change schemes back to a 3-4. Its been just very difficult for the Texans to address RDE even with the 1st pick & Mario Williams you still need that speed edge rusher & those best suited are the 34 OLB's.
Click to expand...
when we were in a 3-4 we never had a pass rusher on that side either...unless you consider Posey and his 8 sacks a big time edge rusher. The team just needs to stop missing on guys like Charlie Clemons, Anthony Weaver and Jason Babin as edge rushers. It isn't the system....it's the scouts.
 
I think we can afford to look at speed rushers to fill the position because of how versatile Mario is.

There isn't a shortage at the position IMO.

I'm going to continue to shout Everette Brown's name everywhere I go this season. This guy is going to be a first round-second round pick. He is just too dominate.

Watch the FSU vs Wake Forest game on saturday night.
 
Vinny said:
when we were in a 3-4 we never had a pass rusher on that side either...unless you consider Posey and his 8 sacks a big time edge rusher. The team just needs to stop missing on guys like Charlie Clemons, Anthony Weaver and Jason Babin as edge rushers. It isn't the system....it's the scouts.
Click to expand...

weren't they all projected fits by Casserly for Capers 3-4?
 
TexansSeminole said:
I think we can afford to look at speed rushers to fill the position because of how versatile Mario is.

There isn't a shortage at the position IMO.

I'm going to continue to shout Everette Brown's name everywhere I go this season. This guy is going to be a first round-second round pick. He is just too dominate.

Watch the FSU vs Wake Forest game on saturday night.
Click to expand...

if it was so easy then why are the Texans still lacking one 8 years later?

but I will check out the FSU game, I'm hoping for the best :specnatz:
 
beerlover said:
Been really focused on the Texans need @ DE but you know the more I look at it the more I think they should fire Smith & change schemes back to a 3-4. Its been just very difficult for the Texans to address RDE even with the 1st pick & Mario Williams you still need that speed edge rusher & those best suited are the 34 OLB's. for example this upcoming draft has Ray Maualuga, Southern Cal, 6016 260. could he project to RDE in a 4-3? would you use a top 10 pick on a player you must move to a new position? or does he just fall into the hands of another 3-4 team missing pass rush?

After 4 + years looking @ College prospects for the NFL/Texans the single hardest thing I've had is projecting players to the next level @ a new position. it happens all the time but has to be a perfect situation. my gut feeling says try to evaluate a player at his natural position first, then see how he fits. when doing bpa approach this can be quite confusing so other than a top 5 pick like DE George Selvie I predict the Texans contiune to struggle addressing pass rush via the draft unless they change defenses. :glasshalffull:
Click to expand...

Well, I think that is taking it too far. We aren't ready to go back to a 3-4. Mario isn't a 3-4 end or a 3-4 OLB, so he would be wasted/stuck and he is too good to change the defense up. As for Maualuga, he is a monster; however, he isn't a DE in any scheme. He a MLB in the 4-3, and I think he is actually best suited for an ILB in the 3-4, not an OLB rush guy. One problem I pointed out a while ago is that our director of player scouting is one of (if not the only) the only holdovers from the Casserly era. I think Vinny hit the nail on the head, it is simply our scouting department.
 
YoungTexanFan said:
Well, I think that is taking it too far. We aren't ready to go back to a 3-4. Mario isn't a 3-4 end or a 3-4 OLB, so he would be wasted/stuck and he is too good to change the defense up. As for Maualuga, he is a monster; however, he isn't a DE in any scheme. He a MLB in the 4-3, and I think he is actually best suited for an ILB in the 3-4, not an OLB rush guy. One problem I pointed out a while ago is that our director of player scouting is one of (if not the only) the only holdovers from the Casserly era. I think Vinny hit the nail on the head, it is simply our scouting department.
Click to expand...

no disagreement the scouting pre-Smith sucked, my point is the foundation for such huge misses was the inability to project players into the NFL @ different positions than they were profiencent in College, ie see Babin DE moved to OLB. Maualuga is a MLB who could fill the running lanes for the Texans in a 4-3 vastly upgraded our run defense, maybe he could even add 3/4 sacks inside? that would be great, move DeMeco to WLB replacing Greenwod add some blitz packages while Ray holds the middle zone.

the advantage in the 3-4 over the 4-3 is you can fill positions later rounds to play OLB's, the tackles being higer graded picks (which we already have) two-gap which Mario is, Amobi lacks height has the speed to cause problems with Okam as the NT (Travis the Texans 1st rd. pick in 04 is a classic example of a one-gap tackle trying to play as a two-gap tackle).

bottom line to complete the 4-3 C/O requires more talent both in the middle & outside. A new MLB like Maualuga or RDE like Selvie would sort out this mess, I'm just tired & frustrated I guess from Ike to the Texans D & looking for relief from both of em :)
 
Vinny said:
when we were in a 3-4 we never had a pass rusher on that side either...unless you consider Posey and his 8 sacks a big time edge rusher. The team just needs to stop missing on guys like Charlie Clemons, Anthony Weaver and Jason Babin as edge rushers. It isn't the system....it's the scouts.
Click to expand...

beerlover said:
weren't they all projected fits by Casserly for Capers 3-4?
Click to expand...
Our director of pro scouting has been Bobby Grier since before we fielded a team in 2000. He is the guy behind the Stacey Macks, Charlie Clemons, Todd Wades, Robaire Smiths, and Anthony Weavers of the team. This is the same Bobby Grier who was replaced by the Patriots current regime that started winning once he was gone btw. Grier did a mediocre job with the Pats and imo has done a mediocre job with the Texans.
 
Vinny said:
Our director of pro scouting has been Bobby Grier since before we fielded a team in 2000. He is the guy behind the Stacey Macks, Charlie Clemons, Todd Wades, Robaire Smiths, and Anthony Weavers of the team. This is the same Bobby Grier who was replaced by the Patriots current regime that started winning once he was gone btw. Grier did a mediocre job with the Pats and imo has done a mediocre job with the Texans.
Click to expand...

did the Patriots use a 3-4 prior to 2000 or was that after he left?
 
Vinny said:
Pete Carroll was the head coach and Steve Sidwell (ex Oilers coach) was the dc and I do believe he ran a 4-3 defense.
Click to expand...

there you go, a possible connection to not only the use of the 4-3 but a system (USC) defensively left untapped by the Texans. well at least I can't think of any Texans on the defensive side who where Trojans? thats really interesting stuff Vinny, thanks. would lead me to think now that switching back to a 3-4 is out of the question & that to be successful in the 4-3 they will target players who fit that scheme, which means a defensive 1st rd. pick.

USC does have a few of them too! Besides middle linebacker Ray Maualuga, 6016 260 (top of the Texans draft board?) there is OLB/DE Brian Cushing 6033 255 could be a edge pass rusher or possibly safety Kevin Ellison, 6010 225.

I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling over our own director of scouting (Bobby Grier) never even gave it much though before this thread, but the Texans hand may be forced to once again, becasue of need, reach/project a player to enhance pressure on the QB making the scheme more effective. never thought I would say this but I'd be willing to accept trading up in draft order to fix this problem rather than project :cool:
 
beerlover said:
there you go, a possible connection to not only the use of the 4-3 but a system (USC) defensively left untapped by the Texans. well at least I can't think of any Texans on the defensive side who where Trojans? thats really interesting stuff Vinny, thanks. would lead me to think now that switching back to a 3-4 is out of the question & that to be successful in the 4-3 they will target players who fit that scheme, which means a defensive 1st rd. pick.

USC does have a few of them too! Besides middle linebacker Ray Maualuga, 6016 260 (top of the Texans draft board?) there is OLB/DE Brian Cushing 6033 255 could be a edge pass rusher or possibly safety Kevin Ellison, 6010 225.

I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling over our own director of scouting (Bobby Grier) never even gave it much though before this thread, but the Texans hand may be forced to once again, becasue of need, reach/project a player to enhance pressure on the QB making the scheme more effective. never thought I would say this but I'd be willing to accept trading up in draft order to fix this problem rather than project :cool:
Click to expand...

What are you going to do with Mario ? Stand him up, or shift him inside as a three four DE ? Or trade him for two number 1's. Just curious ? Their DBs are adequate. The problem is there is a lack of speed in the back seven. The lack of the off side DE exasperates the lack of athleticism with the back seven. If they had the super Sam or Will they might over come their warts. But we don't have any of those either. The Steelers aren't loaded now with super LBs by accident. They drafted them and they drafted them high.
 
threetoedpete said:
What are you going to do with Mario ? Stand him up, or shift him inside as a three four DE ? Or trade him for two number 1's. Just curious ? Their DBs are adequate. The problem is there is a lack of speed in the back seven. The lack of the off side DE exasperates the lack of athleticism with the back seven. If they had the super Sam or Will they might over come their warts. But we don't have any of those either. The Steelers aren't loaded now with super LBs by accident. They drafted them and they drafted them high.
Click to expand...

as you mentioned the Steelers you can load up on those playmaking OLB's but they still remain strong @ ILB too (Farrior/Foote). the 3-4 seems more aggressive & easier to fill most teams using the system successfully drafting later can stock up on pass rushing ends converting them to outside LB's. My fault for raising questions in this thread about DE's, I've had questions about what is a DE who fits our system, why haven't Texans aquired one & is it the system, scouting or the coaching that determines the success or in the Texans case lack thereof?

so before I can pinpoint the DE who fits this system it makes it hard to identify those prospects come next April. focusing on pass rush for instance the Texans can improve in this area by solidfying the middle by drafting MLB Ray Maualuga, USC. I think DeMeco can be a more effective pass rushing threat from the outside & since Greenwood needs to be upgraded this move would really help. then use a 2nd rd. pick on the DL. TexansSeminole has mentioned Everette Brown, I watched him last night & looks like he has the NFL body type to hold the edge & good explosion off the snap. you commit picks one & two addressing the middle/edge of Richard Smiths 4-3 gives him the tools to run it successfully.

Mario is a beast who can fit any system DT/DE :mario2:
 
threetoedpete said:
If they had the super Sam or Will they might over come their warts. But we don't have any of those either. The Steelers aren't loaded now with super LBs by accident. They drafted them and they drafted them high.
Click to expand...
well, they do draft linebackers high if the talent is there but arguably their best linebacker is a undrafted player from Kent State. James Harrison is a beast. James Farrior was an 8th round selection. Larry Foote was a second day pick as well... LaMarr Woodley was a late second round pick and Lawrence Timmons was the 15th overall pick but but he is still playing behind Larry Foote but comes in on special matchups and nickel packages.
 
TexansSeminole said:
2 sacks in the 47-7 win against Tennessee Chattanooga last night. That gives him 2 on the season. (2 and a half tackles for loss)

Next week we got Wake Forest at home, so it will be a test.
Click to expand...

Just an update on Brown.

As you may or may not know FSU lost to WF over the weekend. The offense was atrocious giving up 7 turnovers, however our defense only allowed 12 points despite leaving our base defense out for the majority of the game, including against 4 and 5 WR sets. Wasn't really agreeing with that defensive play calling while I was in the stands, but I can't argue with the results, and never should I ever doubt Mickey Andrews and his coaching/playcalling ability.

Everette Brown had some nice plays in the game. He blew up a run play in the beginning of the game. 2 TFL but no sacks. They rolled away from his side ALOT. He had alot of hurries as I noticed him in the QBs face quite often.

That gives him 7 tackles 4.5 TFL (39 yards lost on those tackles) and 2 sacks through 3 games. He's got some solid numbers so far, but the rest of the year will be quite the test for him.

We play Colorado in Jacksonville on Saturday @ 3:30. The game will be on abc, hopefully the Houston/Texas area will get this game instead of Fresno St. @ UCLA. My guess is yall will get the FSU game because we are playing a Big 12 opponent.

Check Brown out if you get a chance. He had a pretty damn good game against Colorado last year, giving Hawkins alot of trouble.

I see Beerlover watched him play and was impressed so I am glad to spread the word on this guy, because he really doesn't have a whole lot of buzz from what I can see.
 
TexansSeminole said:
Just an update on Brown.

As you may or may not know FSU lost to WF over the weekend. The offense was atrocious giving up 7 turnovers, however our defense only allowed 12 points despite leaving our base defense out for the majority of the game, including against 4 and 5 WR sets. Wasn't really agreeing with that defensive play calling while I was in the stands, but I can't argue with the results, and never should I ever doubt Mickey Andrews and his coaching/playcalling ability.

Everette Brown had some nice plays in the game. He blew up a run play in the beginning of the game. 2 TFL but no sacks. They rolled away from his side ALOT. He had alot of hurries as I noticed him in the QBs face quite often.

That gives him 7 tackles 4.5 TFL (39 yards lost on those tackles) and 2 sacks through 3 games. He's got some solid numbers so far, but the rest of the year will be quite the test for him.

We play Colorado in Jacksonville on Saturday @ 3:30. The game will be on abc, hopefully the Houston/Texas area will get this game instead of Fresno St. @ UCLA. My guess is yall will get the FSU game because we are playing a Big 12 opponent.

Check Brown out if you get a chance. He had a pretty damn good game against Colorado last year, giving Hawkins alot of trouble.

I see Beerlover watched him play and was impressed so I am glad to spread the word on this guy, because he really doesn't have a whole lot of buzz from what I can see.
Click to expand...

I'm high on Orakpo with the second round pick. Same type of guy but he's just dropped down to DE. He doesn't have the stats yet....and he's was hurt some last year. We'll see how he fairs in a couple of weeks against the monsters from OU.
 
Greg Hardy has looked impressive against Florida.

I expect that Ole Miss Texan is glued to his TV right now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top