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PTI-Mario discussion
- Thread starter Lucky
- Start date
Silver Oak
All Pro
Not sure which one said it, but this was the quote...
"Vince Young can't pass and Reggie Bush can't run".
The premise of the discussion was who deserves an apology more, Norv Turner or Mario Williams. Both agreed that Mario deserves the apology more based on his play and the bashing he took.
I will have to save this recording for days I'm feeling down.
"Vince Young can't pass and Reggie Bush can't run".
The premise of the discussion was who deserves an apology more, Norv Turner or Mario Williams. Both agreed that Mario deserves the apology more based on his play and the bashing he took.
I will have to save this recording for days I'm feeling down.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
*starts searching TV Guide for re-air of PTI*
Leahmic223
Veteran
Reairs on ESPNews sometime again...
But on NFL Live they basically admitted we made the right choice.
We will see more guys eat crow on Thurs since we are the only NFL game that day which mean they will be forced to talk about us...or they may just ignore us and talk about the Broncos only.
Porky
Hall of Fame
This last game he was terrific. He's still inconsistent and needs to be more of a difference maker on a regular basis, but his arrow is clearly pointing up, and I think we have a definate long term keeper. In hindsight, it's time for the mea culpa. I was wrong on Mario. He isn't as good as the hype suggested, but he is pretty good, and as I said is getting better. Kudos to Kubes on this one...
Ditto for me
He's proven me wrong for doubting him this season. Although I don't regret any of my criticism, because he has only recently decided to show up. If he keeps this up, though, he's going to be a monster
Well played. Reserve your right to bash Mario at a later date.
When you are a fan of a losing team, criticizing is the oly way to stay sane!
Remember, the Texans D had a miraculous turnaround at the end of last year too. If we make the playoffs, then ill be happy
austintexanite
Rookie
I'll have to check out the re-airing of that show to hear what they said.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
It was coming, with Bush and Vince not doing well and Mario finally getting some decent games in, this was bound to happen sooner or later. Nows a good time though. Lets hope Mario gets pissed it took them so long to admit he can play, that way he crashes the Denver line Thursday.
But all in all, I wouldn't get to excited. Generally, the press (and ESPN) is as fickle as Wall Street.
But all in all, I wouldn't get to excited. Generally, the press (and ESPN) is as fickle as Wall Street.
I'm sure part of Bush's play this year was his knee problem - just as Mario's foot was a common reason for his poor to mediocre rookie year.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Didn't Reggie's knee problem start when Deuce went down and was asked to be the primary back (which he can't handle)? That' what he would have been in Houston from day 1. Actually it probably would have been Ron Dayne still...so nevermind.
No, but if it makes you feel better about Mario talk it up.
Bush sucked this year before and after his knee injury
He fumbled before and after as well
I was SO wrong about Bush. i dont think he'll ever be good.
He can't hold onto the ball
With 100 catches, he can't bust out long ones
He doesnt make people miss
He's not big enough to run over people
He cant get into space
When he does get into space, he does nothing
ALl he can do is run straight ahead REALY fast.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Seems to me that trying to be a feature back would make RB injury prone. I'm not even guessing when this knee stuff started, though. Honestly, I don't think I knew he even had a knee problem.
I think NO should just accept (in the long run) that RB is a player worth having on the field, but not as your RB. They're just going to have to use him as a slot receiver and get really used to not having a blocking back in the backfield. That's what I'd do anyway, but I guess they can't right now with Deuce out.
I think NO should just accept (in the long run) that RB is a player worth having on the field, but not as your RB. They're just going to have to use him as a slot receiver and get really used to not having a blocking back in the backfield. That's what I'd do anyway, but I guess they can't right now with Deuce out.
How can we know all this? He hasn't played for three years so a judgment can't be made yet.
I guess now that Mario is playing well the three year requirement before criticism can be leveled can be acknowledged as less than a hard and fast rule?
I'm not sure what is wrong with having him as a part time back and a slot receiver anyway. I think the NFL has had a few power/finesse running back tandems that have had success. He'd still be on the field all the time, especially since he's looked good in picking up blitzes when I watched him.
I think more people here would see some advantages to that scenario if he was a Texan, but that's normal.
And no, I was not big on drafting Reggie at the time. I just don't think all non-Texans suck.
DiehardChris
You betcha!
Really, you can't make these judgments until after 3 or 4 years... and ultimately after their careers are over, but...
These stats, IMO are hard to argue with:
In 2007, Reggie Bush's:
Longest rush: 22 yards
Longest catch: 25 yards
Longest return: 10 yards
This is a guy who almost everyone had the foresight to say was not going to be an every-down back, however, the thing that made up for that was the fact that he is a 'gamebreaker' and a 'gamechanger'. Those stats reflect nothing of that. Add to it that he's a terrible, terrible blocker.
These stats, IMO are hard to argue with:
In 2007, Reggie Bush's:
Longest rush: 22 yards
Longest catch: 25 yards
Longest return: 10 yards
This is a guy who almost everyone had the foresight to say was not going to be an every-down back, however, the thing that made up for that was the fact that he is a 'gamebreaker' and a 'gamechanger'. Those stats reflect nothing of that. Add to it that he's a terrible, terrible blocker.
DiehardChris
You betcha!
There's nothing wrong with that - but the #2 overall pick is not the right place to pick that kind of player. But yeah - who cares what kind of playing time he gets if he's actually a gamebreaker as he was advertised as... but he's not.
powerfuldragon
Enchilada Aficionado.
Inside the nfl tmw night hbo. don't be square.
austintexanite
Rookie
They're going to do a story on him? During King's Korner or something?
powerfuldragon
Enchilada Aficionado.
that's what i'm waiting to see. if they don't mention him, i'll blame the fact that the H is always snubbed in Nat'l Sports media... basically, they're morons to me if they don't
Leahmic223
Veteran
The Press is so fickle.
ESPN's opinion of Mario went from.
Before draft
One of the best DE propsects to come out in a long time. Top defensive player in the draft, a game changer if he pans out.
When Announced he was #1
A bust, a DE that could only be good and would have Texan fans regret the pick for the next 10 years. One guy even said it would take us 5 years to get over this...figures.
During the 06-07 season
They seemed to be right to the casual fan. Bush was racking up total yards. VY was throwing INTs and still winning games, and Mario was playing on one foot no one mentioned and still had a pretty average rookie camaign. None of this matters though, because Mario was labled as a bust, in just his rookie season too.
Right now
The Texans WERE right after all. They knew all along that Bush wasn't a every down back, they knew all along that VY might not be the QB for them. The Texans were right all this time, Mario WAS the right pick as Bush and VY will never pan out to what they were hyped to be.
My stance on this. You need 3 years to judge a guy, besides...what the hell is stopping all 3 of these guys from being HOF players? Is their some rule that in the top 3 of each draft class someone HAS to be a bust or something?
Because it seems like if one succeeds than the other 2 must be failures.
ESPN's opinion of Mario went from.
Before draft
One of the best DE propsects to come out in a long time. Top defensive player in the draft, a game changer if he pans out.
When Announced he was #1
A bust, a DE that could only be good and would have Texan fans regret the pick for the next 10 years. One guy even said it would take us 5 years to get over this...figures.
During the 06-07 season
They seemed to be right to the casual fan. Bush was racking up total yards. VY was throwing INTs and still winning games, and Mario was playing on one foot no one mentioned and still had a pretty average rookie camaign. None of this matters though, because Mario was labled as a bust, in just his rookie season too.
Right now
The Texans WERE right after all. They knew all along that Bush wasn't a every down back, they knew all along that VY might not be the QB for them. The Texans were right all this time, Mario WAS the right pick as Bush and VY will never pan out to what they were hyped to be.
My stance on this. You need 3 years to judge a guy, besides...what the hell is stopping all 3 of these guys from being HOF players? Is their some rule that in the top 3 of each draft class someone HAS to be a bust or something?
Because it seems like if one succeeds than the other 2 must be failures.
Yep - that's the problem. To many people it is a zero sum game.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Mario is going to have more bad games. He'll also have more good ones. I stand by what I said earlier in the year - he's having to learn to be a DE. In college, he was bigger, faster, and stronger than most everyone. Technique wasn't necessary. The process of learning technique and applying it in a full-speed scenario is not a quick process. The brain has to internalize what it's processing, and it'll take longer to react when he's trying to think. He still doesn't have a full complement of moves, but as he internalizes those moves, his raw power, speed, and talent will apply those moves in a superior manner.
He's going to be a great one, given time and no injuries.
He's going to be a great one, given time and no injuries.
Wolf
100% Texan
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
That was the main reason that I questioned the choice of Mario. He dominated lesser competition yet struggled against the better teams. Seemed like a risky pick to me. Obviously, its looking a lot less risky the latter half of this season. Hopefully he can work on his game and start developing his moves and his technique...He has gotten progressively better over the course of this season. I love the fact that he plays a lot of snaps yet has stayed relatively injury free. heck, the guy played all last year with a bad wheel. that shows that he has heart and pride...I like that.
As for being a great one, I think he will have to develop a mean streak and improve his motor in order to be a great one. He is already good though and is showing that he isnt a bust and, in fact, is already one of the most productive players out of the 2006 NFL draft. We beter hold off on him being a 'great one' just yet....but he does already have some of the attributes of a great one.
Great take though eriadoc. I would have repped you but I have to spread some around first.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
do you have a link?
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
How can we know all this? He hasn't played for three years so a judgment can't be made yet.
I guess now that Mario is playing well the three year requirement before criticism can be leveled can be acknowledged as less than a hard and fast rule?
The point is everyone, and I mean everyone, came down hard on Mario from day 1 saying what a bust he is. How dumb Houston is...etc. The media crowns Reggie Bush the best running back since Gayle Sayers...that's freaking before the NFL draft. in your words before 3 years. He's supposed to change the NFL and be the best RB ever. Yet what has he done...nothing. If anybody should be bull$hitting for reggie bush it should be ESPN and they've already thrown it in saying everything that we've been saying for the past year. that he's not a primary running back, that he wasn't a good fit for this team, yadda yadda yadda. Everyone in the entire world has come down on Mario for what a bust he's been meaning THEY HAVN'T GIVEN HIM YOUR'E THREE YEARS to prove himself. He's finally doing good and we as Texan fans are damn proud/glad/thankful/relieved that he's showing how dominant he really is, how he was portrayed to us to be, and what we thought we would see from day 1. If Mario is going to get booed from the start, you better well damn believe Vince/Reggie are going to get booed when mario pisses excellence and those other two look like complete crap. There's no getting around it, it's going to happen if for no other reason than to spite the media for making us feel like crap.
To answer this question, I was really excited that we were going to get Reggie Bush, I'll admit that...I bought into the hype. But then I realized that the Mario pick would actually make since. I braced myself a week before the draft because I knew there was a really good chance we'd draft him and EVERYBODY would make fun of us...
at the end of the day...having a guy like Reggie Bush on your team isn't necessarily going to hurt you. He's a phenominal athlete and people, including myself, come down on him very hard because of all the hype. I'll be the first to admit that. As we've all witnessed, he needs to have a Deuce McAllister to take the pounding. there's nothing wrong with RB being a RB/WR/Decoy....whatever helps your team win. no sarcasm from me here.
However, RB was portrayed to us as the best running back since gayle sayers! That kind of hype is ridiculous! I expect a running back that can be in the entire game and do whatever we ask of him. Reggie is not that back...as they pointed out on MNF he's a complimentary back, he was in college, he is in the NFL, he'll NEVER be anything more.
To be fair, and to point out something that gtexan has talked about before...Mario Williams was portrayed to us as being a pass rushing specialist that was going to be here to get after the QB and get sacks. The first year obviously that really didn't happen, he had his foot injury, etc...but even most of this year we havn't seen a 'pass rushing DE'. I among most of the other fans expected a guy that would come in and be an expert pass rusher...we come to find out he's a great run stopper and needs a lot of work on his pass rushing skills...not really what i expected but he's really coming around with that.
Adrian Peterson is the type of back worthy of the #1 pick not Reggie Bush....there's a huge difference, they are completely different kind of players.
It's like you really want a good ol' thick T-bone steak and instead you get a chicken with its head cut off running every which way....and for a 10 yard loss.
There were several things they were wrong about, which they based their decision on.
1. The strength of the fans. They felt that a team with a loosing record(5 years & counting) needed something to get butts in the seat. But the Houston fans are more resilient than the nation realizes. They passed on the hometown kid... so what. They passed on the best athlete to come out of the NCAA... so what.
We still sold out, and we still had plenty of people in the seats...... not 70,000, but plenty.
2. Reggie Bush is a can't miss game changing homerun hitter.
see Laurence Maroney, Joseph Addai, Maurice Jones-Drew, Jerious Norwood
3. Reggie is the most talented/gifted runner in decades..
at this level, it takes more than talent.
The total yards thing was/is a bunch of crap. they'd throw in return yards to fluff up his totals.
Then when you look at recieving yards + rushing yards, then factor in the amount of touches the kid gets(when you look at his avg gains) it's just silly.
First, the Vince Young decision had nothing to do with Mario. They keep saying it, we keep saying it, and people start believng it. But the Vince Young decision was based on the decision to keep David Carr. Mario was just caught in the middle.
Reggie not being an every down back..... I don't think that was it, who knew?? there was no way for anyone to know at the time. But just like the Indianapolis Colts picked Edgerin James over Ricky Williams, we obviously saw a running back we felt like we could get later in the draft that would fit our system better(D'angelo Williams although he isn't performing any better than Reggie). We rolled the dice, and though we got Demeco, it didn't work out the way we planed.
If you take three years to judge your running back who should have gone #1 overall, then you need to stay away from the war room on draft day. Running backs need to produce from day one as the #1 overall.
DEs... people who didn't see Mario as a keeper last year(IMHO) were upset over not taking Vince. Mario played very well last year, he might not have been a game changer, or a sack miester, but he had very little help, and (again IMHO) poor leadership/direction from the coaches. And before you point to Demeco's success, remember a LB can't do his thing, if he doesn't have big ugly's doing their thing in front of him.
QBs..... it takes three years.
Sure we saw flashes of what Vince brings to the table. No one can fault Tennessee for drafting him over that other guy(Matt somet'n r other). But he may still bust.
Leahmic223
Veteran
Well you MUST give 3 years to judge a player in the first round. A rookie contract is usually around that many years, and just because a RB doesn't have immediate success doesn't mean he can't have success later. The Smaller backs seem to take more time, the Dunn's, Westbrooks, Tiki's of the NFL. I think as a #2 overall pla yer Reggie needs to develop into a pro-bowl player and top notch offensive player by 2010.
That 3 year rule applies for every position (not so sure about Kickers though) because one year a guy might be hurt, one year a guy is learning and adjusting. Every now and then you get guys who come in and do well...but you still have to look at their body of work of 3 years. Look at Boulware, he played well his first two seasons...but now what has happened?
So I still leave judgement out on DeMeco because he can still get better or he could simply just produce what he's doing now for the rest of his career which is a pretty good career anyways I'm just saying he can still get better. At the same time not so much better because he ranks as a top ILB in the NFL...already so how much better can he get? Its like Shaq in his prime, guy couldn't get any better so nowhere to go but down.
I'm just saying if you are a first day guy, most likely teams will judge you over 3 years.
Also I think there were a few signs pointing to Bush not being a everydown back. Because LenDale White carried the load for him at USC. I think Bush, Young, and Mario will be fine. I just think Mario will have a better career than both because the standards are really HIGH for Young and Bush. If Young doesn't win a superbowl people will be disappointed and if Bush doesn't become the second coming of Gale Sayers than people get disappointed.
All Mario has to do is average double-digit sack numbers, maybe have a 15+ sack year every now and then. I expect him to be a game changer, thats all I want out of him.
I want the other team to lose sleep that they play Mario Williams on Sunday. I want Peyton, Young, and Garrad to hate that they play in the same division as Mario. Same said for Okoye and Travis...these are top 10 drafted players on the Dline...sooner or later they should give QBs across the league nightmares.
I went on longer than expected, my point is as a fan and NFL fan I use the 3 year rule to judge players. Not only does this rule apply to Mario, but Bush too and I feel Bush is not a failure or bust...not yet. ESPN has just spun this around so swiftly their whole tune has changed.
I saw the PTI segment yesterday where they acknowledged that Mario is having a better year than Bush or VY, but trust me they did not make a strong endorsement of the Texans pick in 2006 or admit what many have come to understand, which is Reggie Bush is an Eric Metcalf type player
and not a feature NFL running back. He wasn't even a feature PAC-10 running back before coming into the NFL. I dunno, maybe he was way back in junior-high ?
What people have to understand is that ESPN and many of the corporations that advertise on ESPN who use Bush in their ads(that means revenues for ESPN) have a mutual objective: maximizing the pub for anything positive that Bush does and minimizing if not completely ignoring any negative events, news, etc. involving Bush.
and not a feature NFL running back. He wasn't even a feature PAC-10 running back before coming into the NFL. I dunno, maybe he was way back in junior-high ?
What people have to understand is that ESPN and many of the corporations that advertise on ESPN who use Bush in their ads(that means revenues for ESPN) have a mutual objective: maximizing the pub for anything positive that Bush does and minimizing if not completely ignoring any negative events, news, etc. involving Bush.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
twelve coulmn inches of pure bull sh#T. You're better than metamucile there old hoss.
http://www.metamucil.com/our-products.shtml
The last guys to cross the Mario line on the disney sports channel will be Kipper and the college guys, and apperantly our friend thunder kiss. He is not a work out warrior. He was not Reggie White out of the box. The injured foot did mean something. A lot of folks on this board need a six pack of patience.
Vince Young was never an accutare passer. Never has been. And unless Chow can work him over....never will be. He is working on it. Whopped our A$$ for sure...but the five hunderd mark is more than just a trend. There are old QBs and Bold QBs , but there are no Old bold QBs in the NFl. Unless VY finds his mechanics the pack will catch him. Up to you to figgure out whether or not that "it" factor is worth fifty million. From my tree all due respect to thunder kiss and Mattress Mac...we dogded a big old bullet on that one.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Watch video of it here: http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3150860&categoryId=2957357&n8pe6c=3
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Rep. for posting that link....
Running back is one of the most translatable positions from college to the pros. It is not realistic to assume that a back taken in the top 5 or 10 slots of the first round of the draft is not expected to be an immediate contribution or impact. For that position, it doesn't make sense to wait 3 years for productivity, particularly considering the short shelf life of running backs in the NFL.
Also per the new CBA , the max deal lengths for first rounders in the top half is 6 years and 5 years in the lower half. There aren't any 3 year deals for first round picks.
Leahmic223
Veteran
Yes but I was talking about smaller backs...they seemingly take longer to develop. Look at Westbrook and Barber. Bush is pretty small compared to other players in the NFL. Still though he came in the league making plays.
Lets not try to make it seem like the guy just sucks because he doesn't play on our team. Bush has HAD a immediate impact it just hasn't been running the ball, if he continues to play like he does now I think he will be considered a bust. Because he could run the ball at USC because he was just that much faster than everyone else. But some smaller backs in the NFL takes a bit more time for them to learn and run inbetween the tackles.
That is why coming into the NFL all 3 of these guys were known as projects. Mario had to learn technique. Vince had to learn how to pass better. Reggie had to prove he could carry the load. I don't think either of the guys have proved they will be what they were hyped up to, but I do think they have all shown glimpses of what they can do which is a good sign.
rollinstone18
let it bleed
It's good to see parts of the media eating crow.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
I laughed at that blowhard Wilbon acting like it was other people that were talking bad about Mario when him and Kornheiser were sitting on the Mario hate train as well.
"They proclaimed him a bust even before he played a down!!!"
So did you Wilbon...
"They proclaimed him a bust even before he played a down!!!"
So did you Wilbon...
austintexanite
Rookie
I was hearing that and almost choked on my lunch when I heard him say that. I will say this though, these two usually say they were wrong and apologize when they are proven wrong.
Eh, I never said Reggie Bush sucks because he doesnt play for the Texans. I said it doesnt make any sense to take a running back second overall and expect him to figure it out over a three year period. Running back is one of the easier positions to translate from NCAA to the pros. Bush rightly has substantially different expectations of him than Barber (a 4th round pick and an expected 3rd down back) and Westbrook (a 3rd rounder) had.
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
All the guys on Around the Horn said taking Mario was a mistake. Said VY should have been picked, and passing on him was an idiotic move. ESPN is returning to form apparently.
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
Hey, I'm in the same boat that all you Mario lovers were in last year when Reggie was making plays and Mario was sucking.
Reggie basically played half the season hurt, and the line couldn't block for Duece either.
Next year is the magic year when you see the busts and booms come about. It will be interesting to see who comes out on top.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Deuce was pretty good last year and produced.
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
Yep, but this year, before his injury, he couldn't run behind the line either.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Aaron Stecker became the Saints' first 100 yd rusher of the season in his first start.