Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!

NFL Draft Countdown Gives Texans Draft C-

TexanAddict

TexanAddict

Texan 'til I Die
NFL Draft Countdown:

You can probably make the case that the Texans had a good draft but personally I would have done a lot of things differently which is why I am giving them such a poor grade. Okoye will be a major upgrade for them and the two defensive backs could make an impact but once again they failed to add a top left tackle and I just don't think Jacoby Jones will be able to make the kind of impact they need for him to make. After years of getting David Carr killed behind a terrible offensive line the Texans seem to be setting up an even less mobile Matt Schaub for the same fate and to compound matters he won't have many offensive weapons to work with. We will see how it all shakes out but I have a feeling that Houston will once again be choosing very early when the 2008 NFL Draft rolls around.

GRADE: C-
Click to expand...
(Link contains further analysis of each pick)

Can't really agree with this since it seems based mostly off our not selecting an OT early in the draft. After the top two OTs were picked there didn't really seem to be any left that would have provided a significant upgrade to what we already have, so I am glad that we didn't reach for a OT that only had potential to be a backup. Also didn't give any credit for essentially getting Schuab in the 2nd. I personally thought we could have gone a different route with some of our picks, but am not disappointed with what we came out with. Thought this draft would warrant a C+ minimum.

(Not sure if this should be in the College Football/Draft Discussion, move if necessary)
 
As stated by others on earlier threads, last season's draft did not cause most to celebrate late into the night; but that one turned out pretty well imo.
 
TexanAddict said:
NFL Draft Countdown:


Can't really agree with this since it seems based mostly off our not selecting an OT early in the draft. After the top two OTs were picked there didn't really seem to be any left that would have provided a significant upgrade to what we already have, so I am glad that we didn't reach for a OT that only had potential to be a backup.
Click to expand...

Joe Staley was the obvious option the Texans had, but decided against.
I would make the argument that the Cards, in real need of a LT (RT for them with lefty Leinert), made a reach for L.Brown at #5 overall. Would taking Staley at #10 been more of a reach ? I dunno, but its debabeable.
And its very likely that the Texans could have traded back in the 1st, got another first day pick and still could have taken Staley, thereby permitting them to have their cake and eat it to IMO.
Why did they take Okoye instead ? We will probably never know the full inside story, just like we'll probably never know the full inside story for last years #1 pick.
 
Yawn. Just more regurgitation of the same old stuff. If he had an independent thought of his own, it would probably be his first. :devilpig:
 
So, the reason for this guy's grade is the Texans didn't draft a left tackle and reached on Jacoby Jones in the 3rd round.

Franchise LTs are not in abundant supply, and a majority of the league has issues with that position and stability. It seems to me a draft grade should be about what you did, not what you didn't do!

Every team is going to have holes on their roster, that's why your "Star Players" that make the most money that counts against your cap make up the difference and make those average players better.

IMO, if the Texans still continue to have the same problems on offense, it's probably more systematic of the entire offensive roster and coaching than just blaming the LT position. There are just too many moving parts in the offense to lay blame on just one person, with the exception of the QB and the person calling the plays/developing the game plan.

Having a great QB and offensive coordinator = success.

Having a great LT doesn't mean jack squat!
 
nunusguy said:
Joe Staley was the obvious option the Texans had, but decided against.
I would make the argument that the Cards, in real need of a LT (RT for them with lefty Leinert), made a reach for L.Brown at #5 overall. Would taking Staley at #10 been more of a reach ? I dunno, but its debabeable.
And its very likely that the Texans could have traded back in the 1st, got another first day pick and still could have taken Staley, thereby permitting them to have their cake and eat it to IMO.
Why did they take Okoye instead ? We will probably never know the full inside story, just like we'll probably never know the full inside story for last years #1 pick.
Click to expand...
I understand that Okoye @ 10 was more valuable than Staley at a later pick in first round. Also, management may be happy with what we have at LT and the possiblity of Spencer coming back. Even if he makes it back by mid season it would be great. Salaam and Black should be able to hold it until then at least.
 
nunusguy said:
Why did they take Okoye instead ? We will probably never know the full inside story, just like we'll probably never know the full inside story for last years #1 pick.
Click to expand...
perhaps they think Staley isn't much better than Black, Salaam and Spencer as a rookie...and why have 4 LT's on the roster if Spencer will be back sometime this year? Salaam played pretty well last year in place of Spencer...most of our problems came from RT and center...and the RT position became more and more stable as the year progressed as Kubiak stated that Winston was the most improved lineman on the team from camp. Perhaps they didn't "reach for need" in the first round. I consider that a plus.
 
hollywood_texan said:
So, the reason for this guy's grade is the Texans didn't draft a left tackle and reached on Jacoby Jones in the 3rd round.
Click to expand...

Doesn't he have Jacoby Jones in his top 100 players about 10 positions back from where we picked him? How is that a big reach? And didn't we get Bennet almost a full round past where he had him graded? At least he granted that was a possible steal.

At the end he says that people could argue that it was a good draft. He just expects us to keep sucking so we could have picked pretty much anyone (except doing EXACTLY what he would have done in our shoes) and he would have given us a bad grade.
 
I was watching Floyd Reese before the draft. He said one of the mistakes he/his team had made in the past was reaching down and pulling a guy up in the draft to fill a need. He said that is a mistake. Glad the Texans see it that way too.
 
NFL Countdown is ok I guess for a free service & the novice person interested in draft fodder but they hold very little weight with me anymore. in fact they are the ones who would be lucky to get a C- :cool:

in regards to peoples evaluation of the left tackles thats completely open to debate. I happen to be a huge Levi Brown supporter for those who think otherwise, you my friend, are in for a rude awakening as I expect big improvement in Arizona this year.

another thing, trading down when you have the opportunity to add elite talent is plain stupid & will get you run like Casserly. AMOBI OKOYE is an awesome draft pick @ #10, add to that Schaub a franchise QB ready to start in the NFL is a more devastating one/two punch than Thomas/Quinn & all the hub-bub Cleveland got for those picks (I'm not going to even look up what those countdown guys grade is for them) all I know is that I would'nt trade what the Texans did for their draft anyday. so we still owe our 2nd next year to Atlanta they owe their #1 pick to Dallas, very nice :heart:
 
Snippet from the article:

However, in my opinion I'm not so sure they wouldn't have been better off trading down a bit to recoup some of the picks they lost in the Matt Schaub deal (a potential trade with Denver had been rumored) and taking Joe Staley to address their long-standing problem at left tackle.
Click to expand...

If this guy is basing his grade on this tenet, as it appears, then I can understand where he's coming from. That's a very defensible position. Taking Staley at #10 would have been a reach, for sure, but trading back to get him and another pick would certainly have been a valid move. Of course, you have to have a trade partner, but with Okoye there at #10, I find it hard to believe someone wouldn't have traded with us, especially with the amount of trading that occurred. Whether or not Staley is a prospect worth doing that for is another argument, and a lot more questionable. But I can understand the grade and the article, if that's where he's coming from. Many people here on this board were clamoring for a trade-down anyway.
 
Vinny said:
perhaps they think Staley isn't much better than Black, Salaam and Spencer as a rookie...and why have 4 LT's on the roster if Spencer will be back sometime this year? Salaam played pretty well last year in place of Spencer...most of our problems came from RT and center...and the RT position became more and more stable as the year progressed as Kubiak stated that Winston was the most improved lineman on the team from camp. Perhaps they didn't "reach for need" in the first round. I consider that a plus.
Click to expand...

These were my thougths as well. Agree 100%
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Doesn't he have Jacoby Jones in his top 100 players about 10 positions back from where we picked him? How is that a big reach? And didn't we get Bennet almost a full round past where he had him graded? At least he granted that was a possible steal.

At the end he says that people could argue that it was a good draft. He just expects us to keep sucking so we could have picked pretty much anyone (except doing EXACTLY what he would have done in our shoes) and he would have given us a bad grade.
Click to expand...
There was a run of WR's in the draft and the highest graded WR at the time the Texans were up (according to the mocksperts) was Jason Hill from Washington state. 3 WR's were drafted before he was....so I guess my take on this is....the draftnick guys have an opinion...but apparently the teams graded the players different than the mockspurts.

9 73 Jacoby Jones Texans WR Lane
10 74 Yamon Figurs Ravens WR Kansas State
11 75 Laurent Robinson Falcons WR Illinois State
12 76 Jason Hill 49ers WR Washington State
 
Vinny said:
perhaps they think Staley isn't much better than Black, Salaam and Spencer as a rookie..
Click to expand...
I dunno, but I also think that is definitely one of the most likely explanations for the Texans Draft Day behavior, but there are several others to be sure.
Dang, what would you give to see the Texans Draft Board, even after the fact ? I would really like to know how the Texans ranked the individuals in this Draft ?
 
eriadoc said:
Snippet from the article:



If this guy is basing his grade on this tenet, as it appears, then I can understand where he's coming from. That's a very defensible position. Taking Staley at #10 would have been a reach, for sure, but trading back to get him and another pick would certainly have been a valid move. Of course, you have to have a trade partner, but with Okoye there at #10, I find it hard to believe someone wouldn't have traded with us, especially with the amount of trading that occurred. Whether or not Staley is a prospect worth doing that for is another argument, and a lot more questionable. But I can understand the grade and the article, if that's where he's coming from. Many people here on this board were clamoring for a trade-down anyway.
Click to expand...

anytime you trade back it better be for a group of guys you like and if you trade back for one specific guy, chances are someone will leapfrog you. Trading back in the draft with an eye on one guy isn't smart. Kinda like what the 49ers did to the Ravens (rumor was they wanted Staley).
 
Vinny said:
anytime you trade back it better be for a group of guys you like and if you trade back for one specific guy, chances are someone will leapfrog you. Trading back in the draft with an eye on one guy isn't smart. Kinda like what the 49ers did to the Ravens (rumor was they wanted Staley).
Click to expand...

Agreed. And I like Okoye a LOT. I posted my top 5 prior to the draft, and I said I liked Okoye over Levi Brown, when I have said repeatedly that the O-line needs work. I don't know that Staley would have been the solution at LT anyway, and I don't know that they had enough other players they hoped to target in that range to justify a trade-down. I was just saying I can kind of see why he graded the way he did. None of these grades matter one whit anyway, once the hittin' starts.
 
beerlover said:
NFL Countdown is ok I guess for a free service & the novice person interested in draft fodder but they hold very little weight with me anymore. in fact they are the ones who would be lucky to get a C- :cool:
Click to expand...
Same here, I check it out occasionally, but take it with a grain of salt. Has anyone else noticed that he puts the same problems for alot of players at similar positions? For example, just about every WR he wrote a profile on "needs to run better routes", or all the OL prospects "need to get stronger".
 
From the NFL Draft Countdown link above:

However, in my opinion I'm not so sure they wouldn't have been better off trading down a bit to recoup some of the picks they lost in the Matt Schaub deal (a potential trade with Denver had been rumored) and taking Joe Staley to address their long-standing problem at left tackle.
Click to expand...
How many opinions does this guy have? He has Okoye rated the 10th best player in the draft. That's where the Texans selected him. No offensive tackles available were close to that ranking. So he suggests the Texans make a trade down that did not exist to take a player who may not have been available.

Proof that you can criticize anything, if you are so inclined. Any other team brought home the Texans draft, and he'd be shouting hosannas. Until further notice (or a winning season), the Texans are the league's whipping boys. Get used to it.
 
Vinny said:
perhaps they think Staley isn't much better than Black, Salaam and Spencer as a rookie...and why have 4 LT's on the roster if Spencer will be back sometime this year? Salaam played pretty well last year in place of Spencer...most of our problems came from RT and center...and the RT position became more and more stable as the year progressed as Kubiak stated that Winston was the most improved lineman on the team from camp. Perhaps they didn't "reach for need" in the first round. I consider that a plus.
Click to expand...
My thoughts also. People keep saying correctly that Salaam is not the long time answer, yet he does not have to be. He did very well last year and now should get some quality relief that might help him play even better. IMO LT is his until he is beaten out by another. I am focusing more on center for now.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Doesn't he have Jacoby Jones in his top 100 players about 10 positions back from where we picked him? How is that a big reach? And didn't we get Bennet almost a full round past where he had him graded? At least he granted that was a possible steal.

At the end he says that people could argue that it was a good draft. He just expects us to keep sucking so we could have picked pretty much anyone (except doing EXACTLY what he would have done in our shoes) and he would have given us a bad grade.
Click to expand...
I can't find the link and do not know how to add if I did, but in February I saw Jacoby listed at #90 of best 100 players. That is a third round selection and not a reach to me. I am hopeful Bennet is a steal cause we really need another top CB.
 
Without a left tackle, what the Texans have is a deep, deep hole. Filling the ranks of left tackle with dribble and fodder will not affect the outcome. It's still a house of sand. Even worse, the Texans have a new quarterback with less mobility.

The only way this offense works is Ahman Green. If he can help Salaam/Black/Frye/injured Spencer pick up most of their blocks, then Matt can get the passes off. If Ahman can bring his own blocker and get yardage, then the run-first offense will succeed. However, my instinct is telling me that the Texans are totally off balance without any semblence of a passing game.
 
Texans Horror said:
Without a left tackle, what the Texans have is a deep, deep hole. Filling the ranks of left tackle with dribble and fodder will not affect the outcome. It's still a house of sand. Even worse, the Texans have a new quarterback with less mobility.

The only way this offense works is Ahman Green. If he can help Salaam/Black/Frye/injured Spencer pick up most of their blocks, then Matt can get the passes off. If Ahman can bring his own blocker and get yardage, then the run-first offense will succeed. However, my instinct is telling me that the Texans are totally off balance without any semblence of a passing game.
Click to expand...

I don't buy the 'less mobility' argument. Carr may be faster than Schaub but without pocket presence, it doesnt matter. Schaub has shown the ability to move WITHIN the pocket and get his pass off. It's all about your footwork and a step or two in the pocket can help you avoid the rush, maintain vision downfield, and get your pass off.

Carr's problem was that he would go into the fetal position and couldnt really step up in the pocket because of his throwing trajectory. He would always scramble. Bad footwork, bad instincts, and bad throwing mechanics doomed Carr from the start. Ironically, most of these shortcomings were known PRE 2002 NFL draft but we had to have our 'face of the franchise'. :texflag:

Who knows if Schaub works out for us but David sure as hell wasn't going to. We both hope Schaub pans out. Early signs are positive.
 
Second Honeymoon said:
I don't buy the 'less mobility' argument. Carr may be faster than Schaub but without pocket presence, it doesnt matter. Schaub has shown the ability to move WITHIN the pocket and get his pass off. It's all about your footwork and a step or two in the pocket can help you avoid the rush, maintain vision downfield, and get your pass off.

Carr's problem was that he would go into the fetal position and couldnt really step up in the pocket because of his throwing trajectory. He would always scramble. Bad footwork, bad instincts, and bad throwing mechanics doomed Carr from the start. Ironically, most of these shortcomings were known PRE 2002 NFL draft but we had to have our 'face of the franchise'. :texflag:

Who knows if Schaub works out for us but David sure as hell wasn't going to. We both hope Schaub pans out. Early signs are positive.
Click to expand...

Personally, I foresee Schaub stepping up to avoid whatever defensive end is coming off of Salaam (the most likely starter at this point). Unfortunately, a defensive tackle who has, as always, pushed past the awful Texans centers then tackles him.

I like to criticize the Texans for not taking a left tackle, but equally internecine was not drafting a center.
 
Texans Horror said:
Even worse, the Texans have a new quarterback with less mobility.
Click to expand...

Define "mobility".

I've seen highlights of Schaub where he looked just as mobile as Carr (if not more). Especially on that play where he read the defense and knew he had an open field if he ran and broke it for 25 yards.

It always seemed to me that Carr was only genuinely mobile on called plays because of his bad pocket sense. So, even though Carr is athletic, his inability to dodge the rush made him almost as immobile as Bledsoe. That's why he always got sacked. Rob Johnson was the same way. Everyone considered him "mobile" because he was athletic and thought he'd be more successful than other guys behind a bad line but he couldn't dodge the rush and ended up getting sacked a lot. His "mobility" gained him nothing. Other less mobile but smarter QB's would get behind the same line as Rob Johnson and not get sacked as much.

So I don't think we're worse off from a mobility standpoint.

(I'm not going to go as far as Bill Walsh who considered guys like Namath and Marino mobile because of their ability to evade the rush within the pocket.)
 
Texans Horror said:
I like to criticize the Texans for not taking a left tackle, but equally internecine was not drafting a center.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, they did bring in 2 LTs from this years rookie crop, just no high Draft picks.
Same goes for center, where they took 2 rookies who can play at the
center/guard area. Alledgedly.
 
Texans Horror said:
Personally, I foresee Schaub stepping up to avoid whatever defensive end is coming off of Salaam (the most likely starter at this point). Unfortunately, a defensive tackle who has, as always, pushed past the awful Texans centers then tackles him.

I like to criticize the Texans for not taking a left tackle, but equally internecine was not drafting a center.
Click to expand...

That was my biggest problem with the draft. I would have rather tried to trade up for Kalil or Satele. They both nearly fell to our 3rd Round pick. I hope they tried to trade up and the price was prohibitive.

I think I am in the minority thinking Flanagan can get the job done but that is only IF, and its a big IF, he is healthy. We need help at Center. Maybe they think Studdard could develop into one? I love his toughness, edge, and competitive spirit but his footwork isn't amongst his strengths. I am no OL Coach but since we run a type of ZBS blocking scheme, footwork is inherently important.
 
blah blah blah they didn't draft a top tackle, and it does not mater that the best 2 were already gone blah blah blah.

Havn't we heard this before?
 
nunusguy said:
Just to clarify, they did bring in 2 LTs from this years rookie crop, just no high Draft picks.
Same goes for center, where they took 2 rookies who can play at the
center/guard area. Alledgedly.
Click to expand...

Yup, fact is they have used 2 of their 6th highest draft choices on LT prospects over the last two drafts.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Define "mobility".

I've seen highlights of Schaub where he looked just as mobile as Carr (if not more). Especially on that play where he read the defense and knew he had an open field if he ran and broke it for 25 yards.

It always seemed to me that Carr was only genuinely mobile on called plays because of his bad pocket sense. So, even though Carr is athletic, his inability to dodge the rush made him almost as immobile as Bledsoe. That's why he always got sacked. Rob Johnson was the same way. Everyone considered him "mobile" because he was athletic and thought he'd be more successful than other guys behind a bad line but he couldn't dodge the rush and ended up getting sacked a lot. His "mobility" gained him nothing. Other less mobile but smarter QB's would get behind the same line as Rob Johnson and not get sacked as much.

So I don't think we're worse off from a mobility standpoint.

(I'm not going to go as far as Bill Walsh who considered guys like Namath and Marino mobile because of their ability to evade the rush within the pocket.)
Click to expand...

I'm defining mobility as the quarterback's ability to run. If Schaub can outrun the defensive ends while avoiding the sack coming from inside, then I'm all smiles. If he can't, the Texans are no better off than last year.
 
nunusguy said:
Just to clarify, they did bring in 2 LTs from this years rookie crop, just no high Draft picks.
Same goes for center, where they took 2 rookies who can play at the
center/guard area. Alledgedly.
Click to expand...

As bad off as the line is, I hope the staff and players concentrate on their primary positions. Once the Texans have a credible line, then they should look at teaching back-up positions to these guys, but at their abilities, I hope they just concentrate on the job at hand.
 
Hoth-Boy said:
blah blah blah they didn't draft a top tackle, and it does not mater that the best 2 were already gone blah blah blah.

Havn't we heard this before?
Click to expand...

It has certainly been discussed, just like the low draft grade the Texans received, but I think they are intertwined. At least in the eyes of the NFL, you cannot talk about how well the Texans draft without talking about the glaring weakness at LT. Besides, it's May, and the topics are weak.
 
Vinny said:
anytime you trade back it better be for a group of guys you like and if you trade back for one specific guy, chances are someone will leapfrog you. Trading back in the draft with an eye on one guy isn't smart. Kinda like what the 49ers did to the Ravens (rumor was they wanted Staley).
Click to expand...

True that. And allegedly Okoye was their #1 choice on the defensive side of the board.

IIRC, there was a rumor that Staley came to visit the Texans. So they may not have figured he was any better than what they had.

What's interesting to me as just sort of an aside to this is that when the Shrine game was in Houston, Carmine Pirone of the Texans happened to write an entire article about him:

Click the Road to the NFL link on Jacoby
 
To add to this, I think a lot of national writers do not understand that DT for the Texans was also a major area of need.

I still can't forget the moment during the game where I looked on the field and said to myself, "Self, who the * is Thomas Johnson?"
 
Texans Horror said:
I'm defining mobility as the quarterback's ability to run. If Schaub can outrun the defensive ends while avoiding the sack coming from inside, then I'm all smiles. If he can't, the Texans are no better off than last year.
Click to expand...

He doesn't have to outrun them, he just has to not be caught by them. That's why I don't think we've made a downgrade in QB mobility in the shift from Carr to Schaub. Carr might be faster than Schaub but he wasn't outrunning anyone and the only time he was making people miss was when he was on a designed run. (Still love that play where he broke that Saint's ankles.)

Ultimately, we've got to see it on the field. The proof will be in the pudding.
 
Texans_Chick said:
To add to this, I think a lot of national writers do not understand that DT for the Texans was also a major area of need.

I still can't forget the moment during the game where I looked on the field and said to myself, "Self, who the * is Thomas Johnson?"
Click to expand...

I had the same moment. It was a kind of "who... huh... wha... is that... huh" sort of experience.
 
Texans Horror said:
I'm defining mobility as the quarterback's ability to run. If Schaub can outrun the defensive ends while avoiding the sack coming from inside, then I'm all smiles. If he can't, the Texans are no better off than last year.
Click to expand...

So you already know that Schaub can't do anything else such as reading defenses, sliding in the pocket/sensing pressure, seeing the middle of the field, making pre-snap reads better than Carr? If he does those things better, the Texans are better off even if it he gets tackled on the way to the sideline instead of actually making it all the way to the sideline.
 
Texans Horror said:
I'm defining mobility as the quarterback's ability to run. If Schaub can outrun the defensive ends while avoiding the sack coming from inside, then I'm all smiles. If he can't, the Texans are no better off than last year.
Click to expand...

The point of scrambling or evading the rush isn't to run for positive yards, it's to buy a small amount of time to throw downfield. We are talking milla seconds here that can mean the difference between a huge pass downfield or a sack.

If a QB is so good at outrunning the defensive line or the rush, he might as well be a running back.

Look at Vick, he probably has the best talent in outrunning a defensive line in the NFL, and that gets him and the Atlanta Falcons no where.

The primary reason for a QB is to throw the football and evading the rush to buy critical moments is what is important. A great QB doesn't have to outrun the defensive rush, he just needs to buy enough time to make a play work.

Watch Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, you can't tell me those can outrun defensive ends and they are pressured regularly.
 
Texans Horror said:
I'm defining mobility as the quarterback's ability to run. If Schaub can outrun the defensive ends while avoiding the sack coming from inside, then I'm all smiles. If he can't, the Texans are no better off than last year.
Click to expand...


Signed,



The guy who has never seen Peyton Manning play
 
hollywood_texan said:
The point of scrambling or evading the rush isn't to run for positive yards, it's to buy a small amount of time to throw downfield. We are talking milla seconds here that can mean the difference between a huge pass downfield or a sack.

If a QB is so good at outrunning the defensive line or the rush, he might as well be a running back.

Look at Vick, he probably has the best talent in outrunning a defensive line in the NFL, and that gets him and the Atlanta Falcons no where.

The primary reason for a QB is to throw the football and evading the rush to buy critical moments is what is important. A great QB doesn't have to outrun the defensive rush, he just needs to buy enough time to make a play work.

Watch Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, you can't tell me those can outrun defensive ends and they are pressured regularly.
Click to expand...


I don't mean to jump on you, but I absolutely hate it when people say ignorant things like that. It's gotten the atlanta falcons nowhere??? Some fun facts for you. Vick came into the league in 2001. He has been a player in the nfl for 6 seasons, and a starter for 5. In that time period, it has been possible for 12 qb's (2 each year) to take their team to the nfc championship game. How many have done it? Well, Mcnabb did it 4 times, Delhomme did it twice, Bulger, Hasselbeck, Grossman, Brees, Brad Johnson, and Mike Vick have all taken their team to that game. 8 qbs have done what he did in the NFC. He knocked Favre out of the playoffs in Lambeau. Here are some quarterbacks who haven't taken their team as far as Vick has in the NFC in this timespan

Eli Manning, Brett Favre, Jon Kitna, Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Joey Harrington, Jason Campbell, Mark Brunell, Tony Romo, etc. etc. Ad Nauseum. The point is, since the Falcons got Vick, going into the 2006 season, he had the 4th best WINNING percentage in the NFL. 3 teams won more with other qbs than mike vick. all he does is win games. Thats the point right? U play to win the game.

Vick is the 4th leading passer in yards in falcons history, and 3rd in qb wins. He's completely rewritten the record books on qb mobility, has done things nobody has ever done at his position, has 3 pro bowls, and people won't get off his back. To say that he has gotten atlanta nowhere is just insane
 
Second Honeymoon said:
I don't buy the 'less mobility' argument...may be faster ... but without pocket presence, it doesnt matter.
Click to expand...

Yep.

Texans Horror said:
As bad off as the line is, I hope the staff and players concentrate on their primary positions.
Click to expand...

I don't want to hear the word "swing" every time any o-lneman is discussed this year, but I probably don't have much choice.

The Pencil Neck said:
He doesn't have to outrun them, he just has to not be caught by them.
Click to expand...

Yep again.

infantrycak said:
So you already know that Schaub can't do anything else such as reading defenses, sliding in the pocket/sensing pressure, seeing the middle of the field, making pre-snap reads better than Carr?
Click to expand...

To be fair, there are a lot of people that know Schaub can do all this and more too. There must have been lots of people watching the Falcons last year, unless they are relying on say, ESPN and other media sources. Then again, hope is a wonderful thing. :shades:
 
Runner said:
To be fair, there are a lot of people that know Schaub can do all this and more too. There must have been lots of people watching the Falcons last year, unless they are relying on say, ESPN and other media sources. Then again, hope is a wonderful thing. :shades:
Click to expand...

Valid point, but when the bet is on stepping up to average, I'll bet on average every time.
 
infantrycak said:
Valid point, but when the bet is on stepping up to average, I'll bet on average every time.
Click to expand...

Agreed; it would be darn near impossible not to step up.

I'll believe they can run a full passing attack when I see it though. I've had too many expectations dashed in the past.
 
swtbound07 said:
I don't mean to jump on you, but I absolutely hate it when people say ignorant things like that. It's gotten the atlanta falcons nowhere??? Some fun facts for you. Vick came into the league in 2001. He has been a player in the nfl for 6 seasons, and a starter for 5. In that time period, it has been possible for 12 qb's (2 each year) to take their team to the nfc championship game. How many have done it? Well, Mcnabb did it 4 times, Delhomme did it twice, Bulger, Hasselbeck, Grossman, Brees, Brad Johnson, and Mike Vick have all taken their team to that game. 8 qbs have done what he did in the NFC. He knocked Favre out of the playoffs in Lambeau. Here are some quarterbacks who haven't taken their team as far as Vick has in the NFC in this timespan

Eli Manning, Brett Favre, Jon Kitna, Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Joey Harrington, Jason Campbell, Mark Brunell, Tony Romo, etc. etc. Ad Nauseum. The point is, since the Falcons got Vick, going into the 2006 season, he had the 4th best WINNING percentage in the NFL. 3 teams won more with other qbs than mike vick. all he does is win games. Thats the point right? U play to win the game.

Vick is the 4th leading passer in yards in falcons history, and 3rd in qb wins. He's completely rewritten the record books on qb mobility, has done things nobody has ever done at his position, has 3 pro bowls, and people won't get off his back. To say that he has gotten atlanta nowhere is just insane
Click to expand...

First, the NFC has been a weaker conference for many years in regards to your NFC championship game point.

Second, I was referring to Vick's running skills in particular.

Vick has amazing talent and has done some great things, but how do you parlay his running skills and his current passing skills into a Super Bowl victory? Or even into big time game wins?

So far, he hasn't even come close on a consistent basis to be a go to Franchise QB. Which was my point. I could care less about regular season stats. What I care about are wins! Also, Vick gets hurt all the time because of his style of running. So in essence, he becomes a bit of a liability because his team cannot rely on him consistently due to injuries.

Sometimes, having an amazing athelete gets you no closer to a championship than not having him at all. Which is my general opinion about Vick.

Maybe I will be proven wrong, but I am definitely not ignornant of this topic.

The best QBs have historically been guys that use their brains more than their physical talents. Which is probably why Schuab will be a better QB in Houston than what Carr did under the same general circumstances. Now extrapolate that into the Vick situation, and maybe you can see my point? Maybe Vick has too much talent for his own good with regard to winning a championship? Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing!

Also, I was in no way comparing Vick to Carr with regard to talent and/or their struggles on the field.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
He doesn't have to outrun them, he just has to not be caught by them.
Click to expand...

infantrycak said:
So you already know that Schaub can't do anything else such as reading defenses, sliding in the pocket/sensing pressure, seeing the middle of the field, making pre-snap reads better than Carr? If he does those things better, the Texans are better off even if it he gets tackled on the way to the sideline instead of actually making it all the way to the sideline.
Click to expand...

hollywood_texan said:
The point of scrambling or evading the rush isn't to run for positive yards, it's to buy a small amount of time to throw downfield. We are talking milla seconds here that can mean the difference between a huge pass downfield or a sack.

If a QB is so good at outrunning the defensive line or the rush, he might as well be a running back.
Click to expand...

xtruroyaltyx said:
Signed,
The guy who has never seen Peyton Manning play
Click to expand...

Look, guys, I'm not trying to criticize the beloved new shiny penny. I think eventually MS will do fine. And I don't want to debate speed, pocket presence, and the "intangibles" of MS. Like PN said, I'll wait to see it on the field.

It's the line that bothers me. Have we forgotten how porous the line was last year? I am less than inspired at the prospect of a starting lineup that goes Salaam - Pitts - Flanagan - Weary - Winston. MS may be one of the greatest QBs ever, Tru, but he doesn't have the line that Peyton or Brady have. Sure, those QBs have had to do some evading, but they don't have the relentless onslaught that MS will have. DEs will bypass Black/Salaam. DTs will get through Flanagan. Unless someone can pick up those blocks (Green), MS is going to have immense pressure his first year.

When he does throw, he isn't going to have to throw to. So my problem is not MS. It's his supporting cast.
 
Texans Horror said:
Look, guys, I'm not trying to criticize the beloved new shiny penny. I think eventually MS will do fine. And I don't want to debate speed, pocket presence, and the "intangibles" of MS. Like PN said, I'll wait to see it on the field.

It's the line that bothers me. Have we forgotten how porous the line was last year? I am less than inspired at the prospect of a starting lineup that goes Salaam - Pitts - Flanagan - Weary - Winston. MS may be one of the greatest QBs ever, Tru, but he doesn't have the line that Peyton or Brady have. Sure, those QBs have had to do some evading, but they don't have the relentless onslaught that MS will have. DEs will bypass Black/Salaam. DTs will get through Flanagan. Unless someone can pick up those blocks (Green), MS is going to have immense pressure his first year.

When he does throw, he isn't going to have to throw to. So my problem is not MS. It's his supporting cast.
Click to expand...

"When he does throw, he isn't going to have to throw." --wtf does that mean ?

The problem is that no one can see our line past David Carr. The Oakland Raiders game appeared to be our worst game pass protection wise. I said it at the time that the line wasn't all that bad in that game and David had a lot to do with some of the sacks he was taking. I think your's and other's perception of our O-line is flat wrong. Our O-line looked bad at times lat year, but I can point to just about every team and probably get the same amount of breakdowns. The differnce between how our line was/is percieved was David Carr. period.

The fact that you used the word relentless, and onslaught when describing our line is ridiculous. Look at some of the sack numbers from last year. We had a terrible QB that caused A LOT of sacks, but we weren't even the worst in the leauge. I don't care what anyone says I think we have players capable of forming a top 15 Offensive line. I think Matt Schaub is going to make you all realize how "good" our line actually is and how terrible our former number 8 was...I've been leaving this subject alone and haven't really been talking about the line, or Spencer much of late, but I think it's down right ridiculous with some of the criticism our O-line gets...No they haven't been the greatest unit throughout our brief history, but I think if they can stay healthy this year we'll do just fine.
 
Texans Horror said:
Look, guys, I'm not trying to criticize the beloved new shiny penny. I think eventually MS will do fine. And I don't want to debate speed, pocket presence, and the "intangibles" of MS. Like PN said, I'll wait to see it on the field.

It's the line that bothers me. Have we forgotten how porous the line was last year? I am less than inspired at the prospect of a starting lineup that goes Salaam - Pitts - Flanagan - Weary - Winston. MS may be one of the greatest QBs ever, Tru, but he doesn't have the line that Peyton or Brady have. Sure, those QBs have had to do some evading, but they don't have the relentless onslaught that MS will have. DEs will bypass Black/Salaam. DTs will get through Flanagan. Unless someone can pick up those blocks (Green), MS is going to have immense pressure his first year.

When he does throw, he isn't going to have to throw to. So my problem is not MS. It's his supporting cast.
Click to expand...

You're saying that whether MS is good or bad doesn't matter because we don't have anyone to block for him and we don't have anyone to catch for him. You're saying that MS is going to have to run for his life and he's going to have to be mobile. I get that. I just don't agree with that. That's not what I see when I look at the film.

Look at the film from the Raiders game that Baldinger showed. There was another feature similar to this that someone did (NFLN or possibly ESPN) where they showed EXACTLY the same problems with Carr in the Browns and Giants games.

Our line is NOT porous. It might not be the greatest line ever but it is, at worst, slightly below average. Our line did not allow a relentless onslaught on DC last year and it should be better this year. Our line looked bad last year because Carr was sacking himself. He was making bad reads. He wasn't throwing to open receivers. He was holding the ball when he should have been throwing the ball. And he was panicking and then running INTO the defensive linemen. He was locking onto AJ.

If Schaub doesn't share those traits, everyone else suddenly starts looking like all-pros. If he gets the ball out on time, less sacks. If he finds the open receivers and actually throws the ball to them, the pressure is off of AJ and suddenly our WR#2 situation doesn't look so bad. If he doesn't panic in the pocket, less sacks.

But, like you said, we have to see them do it on the field. At this point, this is just off-season hysteria.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
"When he does throw, he isn't going to have to throw." --wtf does that mean ?

No they haven't been the greatest unit throughout our brief history, but I think if they can stay healthy this year we'll do just fine.
Click to expand...

Anyone. Mistyped. He won't have anyone to throw to. AJ double- and triple-teamed, and Walter and the rookie. I hear Green is a catching RB. So as long as Green can block, run, and catch, the Texans will do fine.

And I hope the line stays healthy and does well. But I don't think they will do either.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top