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Reggie Bush vs. Maurice Jones-Drew

Ole Miss Texan

Ole Miss Texan

Hall of Fame
I really hate starting a thread on reggie bush. it is really going to look like i'm bashing him but please know that i'm not. I'm tired of people that only watch ESPN talking about Mario and how other rookie DE's outperformed him. I looked up the stats on nfl.com and compared these two rookie RB's. thought some may be interested.

*before all you members that hate the mario pick and still can't get over us passing on vince young and reggie bush...please know that i wanted us to take reggie but when they announced we were signing mario..i didn't have a problem and like the pick...and will always support the texans.

this is just FYI.

Maurice Jones-Drew
941 rushing yards, 5.7 YPC, 13 TD
436 receiving yards, 9.5 YPC, 2 TD
27.7 yd Avg. kickoff return w/ 1 TD
13 yd avg. punt return 0 TD. (*note- 1 return)
1 fumble lost

Reggie Bush
565 rushing yards, 3.6 YPC, 6 TD
742 receiving yards, 8.4 YPC, 2 TD
no kickoff returns
7.7 yd avg punt return 1 TD
Passing 0 for 1 with 1 Interception
2 fumbles lost.

MJD clearly outperformed RB in every aspect

I forgot about the interception...lol.

MJD- http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/409879

RB- http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/407605
 
JCTexan said:
How did Bush get an Interception? And is it on video?
Click to expand...

I looked to see if i could find a clip but could not on youtube or google.

It was against the Ravens. Saints got to the Ravens 8 yard line, then had 2 false start penalties in a row. Reggie got the hand off from brees and then over threw Colston...Ravens intercepted the ball in the Endzone. Ravens then marched down the field and scored a TD.
 
Jones-drew is a powerback with speed in a short frame...

Bush relies strictly on his speed and elusiveness(sp)....
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I really hate starting a thread on reggie bush. it is really going to look like i'm bashing him but please know that i'm not. I'm tired of people that only watch ESPN talking about Mario and how other rookie DE's outperformed him. I looked up the stats on nfl.com and compared these two rookie RB's. thought some may be interested.
Click to expand...

Mister Rebel.

Getting a little selective there in what stats you put up and which ones you don't? :) The receptions are missing. Bush was 10th in the NFL.

What do you think happened with Jones-Drew against the Texans?
Then he has two big 100 yard games on the ground against the Colts...yet nothing against the Redskins?
 
They are both tremendous athletes, but are hard to compare because they are used in different ways in their respective offensive schemes. I think however on running the ball MJD faired better because he is a N-S type runner where Reggie likes to dance in the backfield a little to much for NFL speed.
 
I think MJD outplayed Bush this year. And I think he was way undervalued in the draft.

That being said, I think Bush had a much more difficult transition. he came from a system where he was able to outrun everyone. If a play broke down, he'd just run side to side until there was a hole and then dash for a 30 yarder. not so in the NFL.
MJDs style translated better

MJD still outperformed him, but Bush's stats made more sense in the 2nd half of the year:

74 rushes for 358 yards (4.83 ypc) and 6 tds
42 catches for 430 yards (10.2 ypc) and 2 tds
 
With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, we all know now that we should have
drafted Vince Young last year after we released David Carr. And if VY hadn't
entered the Draft after his junior year, the next best choice would probably have been Jay Cutler, assuming the pick wasn't traded. I left out Leinert because he really was not that well suited for the WCO as VY and JC are.
But ESPN still likes to ridicule the Texans for not drafting Bush more than any other player. Not sure why this is, though I suspect its because the Cable co.
has multiple business relationships directly or indirectly with Bush, and they want to attack anybody or any team that doesn't glorify Bush as they do. Which brings me to M J-D. He clearly is a better "pure" running back than Bush, and can be a feature back in the NFL because of his ability and skills
to run the inside & outside. He can do the heavy-lifting on a full time basis
in J-town, and many have doubts about Bush ever being a replacement for
Deuce McCalister with the Saints. After all in college, he was basically a back-up to Len-Dale White just as he backs up McCaliister in NO.
So if ESPN were objective, they'd ask why didn't the Texans draft M J-D
and not RB ?
 
nunusguy said:
With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, we all know now that we should have
drafted Vince Young last year after we released David Carr. And if VY hadn't
entered the Draft after his junior year, the next best choice would probably have been Jay Cutler, assuming the pick wasn't traded. I left out Leinert because he really was not that well suited for the WCO as VY and JC are.
But ESPN still likes to ridicule the Texans for not drafting Bush more than any other player. Not sure why this is, though I suspect its because the Cable co.
has multiple business relationships directly or indirectly with Bush, and they want to attack anybody or any team that doesn't glorify Bush as they do. Which brings me to M J-D. He clearly is a better "pure" running back than Bush, and can be a feature back in the NFL because of his ability and skills
to run the inside & outside. He can do the heavy-lifting on a full time basis
in J-town, and many have doubts about Bush ever being a replacement for
Deuce McCalister with the Saints. After all in college, he was basically a back-up to Len-Dale White just as he backs up McCaliister in NO.
So if ESPN were objective, they'd ask why didn't the Texans draft M J-D
and not RB ?
Click to expand...


The best thing that happened for Vince was that the Texans didn't take him. Just imagine all the people that ever did any small thing for him looking for a handout...it would put a lot of pressure on vince being from houston playing in houston. Nuff said.
 
I almost wonder if Bush will ultimately end up a WR that can be involved in a few running plays.

It seems his best feature is his catching ability and working with open space and acting as a KR/PR.

I simply never bought the hype that he is a hall of fame RB in the NFL, especially when he was playing with Lyndale White and Leinart to really liberate him at USC.

If he is the sole back he will have issues. He already has issues not being a N-S runner and adjusting to NFL defense speed on running plays.

AD on the other hand has much better potential to be a central focus RB in the NFL, if he can stay healthy.
 
TwinSisters said:
Mister Rebel.

Getting a little selective there in what stats you put up and which ones you don't? :) The receptions are missing. Bush was 10th in the NFL.
Click to expand...

If you look I added Yards per catch/reception for each. i'm not trying to distort any stats as they can very easily be taken out of context.

MJD
46 rec. for 436 yards Avg. of 9.5 yards per reception.

RB
88 rec. for 742 yards Avg. of 8.4 yards per reception.


So while yes reggie got a lot more receptions but avg'd 1.1 yards less per reception....just stating a fact...not saying that 1 yard is the make all break all . lol.


I guess a point to be made is that the Saints should have drafted MJD instead of RB (or traded down to get him for more production at less money and picked up extra draft picks/players).

-Don't use the arguement that RB fits the saints better than MJD would have. We're not allowed to use the arguement that RB didn't fit our system...the main stream media looks past that for us. lol
 
it all comes down to what your team does...for the jax cubs they love jones-drew and the saints of course love bush...personally i think bush is what we're going to be seeing more of...this hybrid football player who is half runningback half receiver...jones-drew is a solid bowlingball type runningback who has the speed to reach that second gear

like vinny said both are good backs
 
I have to admit that when I saw this thread and decided to click on it I expected to immediately regret my decision. That said, it wasn't that bad. I agree wholeheartedly that MJD had the better year of the two statistically and quite likely has the more solid future as a full-time pure running back. Just a couple of things I wanted to comment on though.

- The sentiment that Reggie would be better suited as a full-time receiver (usually presented on here in some sort of demeaning fashion) I believe must come from people who haven't seen him play much, and that's fine. It's not your team, I wouldn't expect you to. But it's easy to just look at the stats and think that since he has so many reception and was highly touted for his recieving skills, he should be a reciever. Fact is, very few of the said receptions came from him running actual routes (especially downfield) lined up as a reciever. The VAST majority came as screen plays and dumpoffs (when he clearly wasn't the first or second option). Even the 88 yard touchdown vs the Bears in the NFC Championship Game came on a wheel route he route out of the backfield. This isn't to say that he couldn't potentially be a servicable NFL reciever if need be, but that is simply selling short his abilities.

gtexan02 said:
MJD still outperformed him, but Bush's stats made more sense in the 2nd half of the year:

74 rushes for 358 yards (4.83 ypc) and 6 tds
42 catches for 430 yards (10.2 ypc) and 2 tds
Click to expand...

- I guess it's all in how you look at things, really. It's all too easy to overlook these kind of stats and just claim that a certain player isn't any good, pointing at stats which serve to support you're claim. Statistics can be used to back up any point you want to make if you know how to use them correctly. However, the fact of the matter (from someone that watched every single down of Saints Football this past year, Reggie or no Reggie) is that Bush improved substantially as a running back as the season progressed. Heck, a point could even be made that last year wasn't so different from his first year or so at USC when he had to adjust to a different level of atheleticism and didn't put up big numbers until the next year (but I'll keep any potential homerism in check :) ). Point is, he got more patient as the year progressed and, while still a little to quick to try and bounce it out, got more content to just take those three yards that were there rather than risk it trying to get thirty outside. There's a lot he still needs to work on. I'd like to see him work on ball security, vision, and see him get a little stronger in the legs. But I still think that he has the highest ceiling of any player drafted last year (in a hell of a draft class for sure) even considering his shortcomings.

Just look at it this way, if you do think Reggie isn't near as good as advertised and are sick of hearing about him, at least you don't have the ridiculously over-hyped, over-publicized player in your division and have to play them twice a year like we have with Vick for the last six years. :)
 
jlam said:
However, the fact of the matter (from someone that watched every single down of Saints Football this past year, Reggie or no Reggie) is that Bush improved substantially as a running back as the season progressed.
Click to expand...

I think that's exactly what gtexan was saying, pointing out his 4.8 ypc & 10.2 yp catch.

The numbers he showed proves the point you're making. Reggie delivered as advertised, very good numbers, though he wasn't the first or second option(or even third option in most cases)
 
I'm not sure YPC avg. really matters as much as the amount of receptions...


Look at A.J....


Personally I'd rather have a guy whos going to catch the ball 10 times a game and average 10 yards a catch(a.k.a 10 first downs) than a guy who's going to catch it 5 times a game and average 11 yards a catch(a.k.a 5 first downs)
 
thunderkyss said:
I think that's exactly what gtexan was saying, pointing out his 4.8 ypc & 10.2 yp catch.
Click to expand...

Right, I was more or less giving him credit for being objective and looking at it in such a way that better represents (at least in my humple opinion) what actually took place on the field during the season rather than painting with such a broad brush. My fault for being unclear.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I'm not sure YPC avg. really matters as much as the amount of receptions...


Look at A.J....


Personally I'd rather have a guy whos going to catch the ball 10 times a game and average 10 yards a catch(a.k.a 10 first downs) than a guy who's going to catch it 5 times a game and average 11 yards a catch(a.k.a 5 first downs)
Click to expand...

I think that's a good point. I really wish there was some sort of stat I could see that showed just how many time Reggie took a dumpoff pass as a last resort on second or third down and squeeked out a first down to keep a scoring drive going. It happened constantly. But again, that's just something you would have to have seen by watching them play over the course of a season.
 
JLAM - you obviously are very knowlegeable about Bush and his career.
I never saw him play muchin college, accept in the '06 Rose Bowl,
at which time LenDale White was the feature tailback for USC, just as
Deuce does the heavy lifting for the Saints.
While he was with USC in college, did he every play as the primary running
back, or was he basically a "jack-of-all-trades" while LenDale White or another
back was the main tailback at USC ?
 
jlam said:
I think that's a good point. I really wish there was some sort of stat I could see that showed just how many time Reggie took a dumpoff pass as a last resort on second or third down and squeeked out a first down to keep a scoring drive going. It happened constantly. But again, that's just something you would have to have seen by watching them play over the course of a season.
Click to expand...

I watched A LOT of Saints games, and when I hear people talk about him not being able to run the ball I laugh...

I'm with you, because I saw how much better he improved as a runner over the course of the season...

Reggie nearly doubled the amount of catches MJD had but only averaged 1 yard less....

Whenever you start just looking at stats and averages, the player with the least amount of attempts will most likely have the higher average just like our own Andre Johnson...
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I watched A LOT of Saints games, and when I hear people talk about him not being able to run the ball I laugh...

I'm with you, because I saw how much better he improved as a runner over the course of the season...

Reggie nearly doubled the amount of catches MJD had but only averaged 1 yard less....

Whenever you start just looking at stats and averages, the player with the least amount of attempts will most likely have the higher average just like our own Andre Johnson...
Click to expand...

Case in point, our (the Saints) very own Devery Henderson. Good ole' Devery, and I really like him, led the league with 23.3 YPC (32 catches), but on a given Sunday, he might not be able to catch a cold in a day care.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Personally I'd rather have a guy whos going to catch the ball 10 times a game and average 10 yards a catch(a.k.a 10 first downs)
Click to expand...

a ten yard reception doesn't necessarily mean a first down. I know a lot of time when the D plays back on a 3rd and 15 or so and let's 'em get 10 yards, tackle them, and make 'em punt.

Put I completely agree with you and know what your saying. 10 receptions for a game will really help an offense out. No telling how much yards you get, but each play against the Defense adds up. Time of Possession, clock running...etc the list goes on. I'd rather have a steady more consistent receiver for most of the game than a guy that may get a big reception every now and then.

Great posts jlam. Reggie really did help brees out a lot of those receptions...being that he checked down the receivers and dumped it off to reggie. Most of Reggie's yards were after reception and to me that's very important. The play against the bears i believe? was all reggie.

NFC south sure has some playmakers though thats for sure. ATL-Vick, CAR-Smith, N.O.-Bush, Tampa-possibly Calvin Johnson?
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
a ten yard reception doesn't necessarily mean a first down. I know a lot of time when the D plays back on a 3rd and 15 or so and let's 'em get 10 yards, tackle them, and make 'em punt.
Click to expand...

LOL....yeah I know...:)

I was just going with the assumption that the team is starting from the original LOS and even if they weren't 10 for 100 is always > than 5 for 55...
 
nunusguy said:
JLAM - you obviously are very knowlegeable about Bush and his career.
I never saw him play muchin college, accept in the '06 Rose Bowl,
at which time LenDale White was the feature tailback for USC, just as
Deuce does the heavy lifting for the Saints.
While he was with USC in college, did he every play as the primary running
back, or was he basically a "jack-of-all-trades" while LenDale White or another
back was the main tailback at USC ?
Click to expand...

From what I've seen (and I am by no means the most knowledgeable source when it comes to USC football), Reggie was used at USC very much like he was used last year with us. I believe that because of the sheer discrepancy in athleticism between he and the rest of the competition, they were able to be a little more flexible with how they spread him out. He was used more on routes downfield in college for sure, most likely because he didn't necessarily have to run perfect routes to beat the subpar coverage in the NCAA (Pac-10). For the most part, as has been mentioned before, in college it was just "get Reggie the ball in space and let him outrun them to the edges". There's still a little bit of that going on now, but he (and Coach Payton) just has to pick and choose the times to do it due to the obvious decrease in talent gap that now exists.

To answer the question, I would say that at USC, there really was no "feature tailback". I would think that they were used situationally depending on down, distance, score, etc. Reggie's rushing stats were certainly better at USC than they were last year, but he also had a mammoth offensive line to open up enormous holes to run through. Now he has to look to get yards through smaller holes (our O-line, despite getting some recognition last year, is not particularly good at run-blocking) and be more patient looking for his chance to break one. Why try and pound Reggie Bush, a scatback, into the middle of the line on 3rd and goal from the 2 when you have a bigger, stronger back in Lendale White (Deuce McAllister)? It's not to say that Reggie couldn't do it, maybe he can be that back and we just haven't seen it yet, maybe not. But the point is, when he's as good at doing what he does and you have the resources available to be able to use him where he's most effective, why try and fit the square peg in the round hole?
 
I see Reggie as a Ricky Watters type back. He is never going to get a ton of rushing yards and is never going to get a ton of receiving yards, but he will get plenty of both.
 
jlam said:
Please God no. :(

I'm holding out hope that maybe Oakland signs Carr and takes Johnson. I don't want to face him twice a year if we can avoid it.
Click to expand...

I guess you'd have to draft a CB this year 1st round if that happens?
 
atxcoolguy said:
I guess you'd have to draft a CB this year 1st round if that happens?
Click to expand...

I think the saints really need to go defense anyways. I would love for patrick willis to drop that far to y'all but dont see that happening. i would assume you take a CB no matter what, and there should be some good ones there for you top few cb's are hall, revis, houston, ross, mccauley, hughes..i'm probably missing a few that will go fairly high.
 
i'll take Marion Barber. dude runs with ferocity and caught TD's out of backfield this year. (won me my first FFL championship this year also.).
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I'm not sure YPC avg. really matters as much as the amount of receptions...


Look at A.J....


Personally I'd rather have a guy whos going to catch the ball 10 times a game and average 10 yards a catch(a.k.a 10 first downs) than a guy who's going to catch it 5 times a game and average 11 yards a catch(a.k.a 5 first downs)
Click to expand...

Give me Randy Moss, 2 catches 114 yards & 2 TDs as a reciever to put opposite your 10 yards per catch receiver, and we got something.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I think the saints really need to go defense anyways. I would love for patrick willis to drop that far to y'all but dont see that happening. i would assume you take a CB no matter what, and there should be some good ones there for you top few cb's are hall, revis, houston, ross, mccauley, hughes..i'm probably missing a few that will go fairly high.
Click to expand...

There's a very good chance that we could go CB in the first, especially noting the depth at that postion this year, but I think there are a couple of things to consider before making CB the end-all, be-all pick.

- Our staff has shown that they are not afraid of taking the BPA. We didn't need a RB last year, we got Reggie. We also didn't really need a safety (for God's sakes we had thirty of them in camp), but we took Roman Harper out of Alabama because the staff really liked him and it looks like they were right (at least till he tore his ACL; get well Roman). Bet your sweet chops that if the staff has a Jones for one of the many talented recievers in this draft, they'll take him. There are rumors that if Tedd Ginn slips past about number 18 or so, that there's a possibility that we may try and trade up and snag him. Despite the well-documented shortcomings at corner,we have a potential need at reciever as well. We lost Joe Horn, and past Colston (who had a great year last year, but do we really know what we'll get when he's the #1 option?) our recievers are Devery Henderson (see above comment; hardly reliable at this point) and Terrance Copper. We have an offensive coach, so there's that possibility that he could take a reciever if he feels that the receiver will make the biggest difference.

- On the biggest difference note, cornerbacks are traditionally slower developing with a high bust ratio. If the staff wants someone in the first that they think will make more of an immediate impact while providing a lesser risk, they would likely take something other than a corner. Even the most highly touted CB's tend to struggle and take a few years before they are considered good players, especially after all the rule changes that tie the cornerbacks' hands from being physical. Unless the player is Champ Bailey or Deion Sander re-incarnated, they would likely be relegated to nickle-duty for the first year playing anyhow. (Despite this, I still think we need to start getting young talent at this position. You have to develop it at some point, just trying to play devil's advocate on the point that a rookie will come in and fix our #2 corner concerns.)
 
jlam said:
Why try and pound Reggie Bush, a scatback, into the middle of the line on 3rd and goal from the 2 when you have a bigger, stronger back in Lendale White (Deuce McAllister)? It's not to say that Reggie couldn't do it, maybe he can be that back and we just haven't seen it yet, maybe not.
Click to expand...

Well the obvious answer to that question is ideally you want a back versatile enough to run inside and outside so that the defense can't load up for a play
off tackle or inside the tackles. Somebody like an Adrian Peterson for example.
Even if a team platoons with multiple backs, you shouldn't have players that are specialists or limited in their repertoire of skills so that the range of rushing plays is restricted.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
It should be illegal to have Reggie Bush, Marques Colston, and Ted Ginn Jr. on the field at same time. :drool:
Click to expand...

Heh, we've actually had a lengthy discussion on the Saints board about what to do if we have the chance to take him, and there seem to be two schools of thought. One that echoes what you said, that it would sick and should be outlawed due to pure awesomeness (a good thing). And the other thinks that we have enough offense (and some that don't think he is that good in the first place) and need to concentrate on shoring up the weaker part of the team in the defense.

I can see it both ways, but I would jump all over the chance to snagg Ginn, personally. I have enough faith in the staff to think that they won't let the weaknesses in our D be completely ignored and they can fix it with other picks, trades, or signings. Ginn would fill the hole that Joe Horn left and potentially give the O even more dimensions.
 
nunusguy said:
Well the obvious answer to that question is ideally you want a back versatile enough to run inside and outside so that the defense can't load up for a play
off tackle or inside the tackles. Somebody like an Adrian Peterson for example.
Even if a team platoons with multiple backs, you shouldn't have players that are specialists or limited in their repertoire of skills so that the range of rushing plays is restricted.
Click to expand...

I agree, and I believe that as Reggie matures and progresses as a runner, we won't be limited in what we can call for him. I don't really think as it is, that a team CAN load up either inside or out becaue of the multiple threats he and Deuce being on the field at the same time present. He's not a bruising inside rusher, and likely never will be, but he doesn't have to be. When you have Deuce and Reggie lined up in the backfield at the same time, where are you going to load up?

I'm sure that from here, the conversation could lead to, "Well what if he didn't have Deuce to run up the middle?" A legitimate question, and one that as a very big Deuce McAllister fan, I hope I don't have to see the answer to play out in real life for some time. But as it stands, he would have to adjust undoubtedly. Personallly, I think he can and will adjust his style enough to be "the man" if need be.

I don't really view Reggie as a "specialist" at all. If anything, I would say that he is good enough at everything to _not_ hold us back when we are calling plays. He certainly has the potential to improve the running part of his game, but I think that a large part of the reason we were able to be so creative with our playcalling last season was because his "repertoire" of skill is in fact so wide-ranging.
 
This thread should be e-mailed to Merrill Hoge and ask for a reply to why he thinks Reggie Bush should've won Rookie of the Year.
 
Huge said:
This thread should be e-mailed to Merrill Hoge and ask for a reply to why he thinks Reggie Bush should've won Rookie of the Year.
Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with Hodge's opinion. He thinks Reggie Bush should have been the Rookie of the Year last year?
 
You can tell where Reggie gets most of his passes from by looking at his YAC.

88 catches 8.2 YAC 8.4 YPC

YAC for WRs usually looks like 3-5 YAC 10-18 YPC

crossed with his 1st Downs - 32 ( lower than Jones-Drew )

for comparison

Kellen Winslow II or Jr whatever

89 catches 4.0 YAC 8.9 YPC 42 1stDs
 
TwinSisters said:
You can tell where Reggie gets most of his passes from by looking at his YAC.

88 catches 8.2 YAC 8.4 YPC

YAC for WRs usually looks like 3-5 YAC 10-18 YPC

crossed with his 1st Downs - 32 ( lower than Jones-Drew )

for comparison

Kellen Winslow II or Jr whatever

89 catches 4.0 YAC 8.9 YPC 42 1stDs
Click to expand...

Maroney!
 
yeah, Laurence Maroney

22 catches
10.2 YAC
8.8 YPC
11 1stDowns
---

I bet if he added 66 more recpeptions to that.. the avg would look closer to what Bush put out.
 
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