The importance of a playmaking FS

I see a lot of people clamoring for Landry on this board, and Im just curious. What do you think a really good FS does for the team? Is it more or less important than a true #2 cornerback? How different of a team is Baltimore when Ed Reed is injured? How much of a difference did Chris Hope make for the Titans D? And how much did it hurt the Steelers to lose him?

I think Landry is a special athlete, and I think FS is a can't miss position in the NFL draft.

Im just a little concerned with the "bang for your buck" mentality. How much does a FS really improve the team? How important is the position? And how much of an upgrade would someone like Landry be over Brown?

On the one hand, I can see it being a huge upgrade. Suddenly the CBs don't have to be on islands covering the WRs. In deep zones, there would be someone to help over the top. We could double true 1 WR teams.

On the other hand, FS can only play half the field, so we are still left with the same problem we have now. What do we do with the weak half of the field?

Dude, just look at Troy Polamolu(sp?) for Pittsburgh. SS helps the entire D: run support or coverage. It allows you to do a lot with different coverages, disguise coverages and, hopefully, create more turnovers. SS, like MLB is kind of the QB for the D.

a free safety's importance and role relies on the team. place like denver and pittsburgh who's pass rush units look more like punt block teams dont need someone to sit deep in zone. with the texans, we have zone guys like faggins and roc without the athleticism to keep up in man coverage or deep routes, and dunta on the other side who has impossible closing quickness but will bite on fakes. if you want to know what a centerfielder would do for the texans, watch the bills game again, or keep an eye on baltimore. contrary to popular opinion, the ravens arent the blitz happy 3-4 team that they're made out to be and they play a lot of mixed zone coverage which is where ed reed makes his living. we also play a lot of mixed zone and dont have the talent or athleticism in the deep secondary to cover it's weaknesses. simmons is the baseball equivelant to a "utility player" and brown is a backup strong safety and 8th man. a legit centerfielder is very important to the scheme we run and covers our obvious personnel shotcomings. along with that cover-up, it accentuates our positives by allowing faggins to play short zone and puts dunta up on the line where he can jam and run support. also, being in the AFC south we have to compete with peyton for several more years to become king of the hill. what that means is we go into games in atleast nickel packages ... a ballhawk in the middle gives us a lot more flexibility when trying to disrupt their gameplan and allows us more room to try and get creative attacking with our pass rush.

again, it's team specific, but the texans are a team who would use and desperately needs a centerfielder.

I think we need to upgrade FS but I think CB2 is in even more of a dire need. Brown not the most talented FS more suited for SS but he at least gives you a legitimate option, where as Faggins would barely make it as a nickle for most teams. I never understood the man crush Texans fans had for Fagggins.

I liken it to the Astros, you got Willy T in Center and Everett at Short. If you want to upgrade the offense put Burke at short not Center, Willy at least gave you something.

dvs1 said:

I think we need to upgrade FS but I think CB2 is in even more of a dire need. Brown not the most talented FS more suited for SS but he at least gives you a legitimate option, where as Faggins would barely make it as a nickle for most teams. I never understood the man crush Texans fans had for Fagggins.

I liken it to the Astros, you got Willy T in Center and Everett at Short. If you want to upgrade the offense put Burke at short not Center, Willy at least gave you something.

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Burke probably doesnt have the defensive range or arm after originally being drafted as a SS out of Tennessee in 2001. SS is usually the IF position that the best fielder resides at, i.e. Adam Everett of the Astros. Taveras was statiscally one of the worst offensive players in the National League last year. He just continued the ausmus-everett-SP black hole from the bottom of the lineup, although his defense might have saved a few games also. couple that with biggio's vanishing act over a good portion of the season, that's 5 positions in the lineup where you received next to nothing most nights. i'll take burke in center if he can give me more than what Taveras did. shoot, if it's up to me biggio sits after that 3000th hit, burke moves in from CF, and hunter pence gets a headstart on 2008. really amazing what puma did last year with zero protection.

sorry about the Astros rant.

dvs1 said:

I think we need to upgrade FS but I think CB2 is in even more of a dire need. Brown not the most talented FS more suited for SS but he at least gives you a legitimate option, where as Faggins would barely make it as a nickle for most teams. I never understood the man crush Texans fans had for Fagggins.

I liken it to the Astros, you got Willy T in Center and Everett at Short. If you want to upgrade the offense put Burke at short not Center, Willy at least gave you something.

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because faggins is very good at what he does. he's not the fantastic overall guy like clements or champ bailey. he's an underneath and zone coverage guy. asking him to play man coverage 10 yards back is going to get the entire secondary burnt (like we tried to do all too often with an interior zone and outside man). when faggins can get to the LOS and follow the quarterback he's able to disrupt routes and throw off the qb's timing. that's where a centerfielder comes into play. taking over the deep crossing routes and double moves on the sideline that all of our cornerbacks struggle with.

as per my post, we have good cornerbacks but they all have the same limitations. we hurt in deep man and intermediate zone coverages. a ballhawk free safety cures much of that problem and lets us use the guys we have's strengths. also since we have dunta, earl, brown, and simmons as legit pass rush options, we need someone who can float to cover that void during blitzes much like how hope got his acclaim in pittsburgh for covering polomalu's voided space.

despite my arguing that a free safety is our biggest need on defense, a lot of that talent will be nullified if we cant upgrade the OLB position. we play a lot of interior zone and greenwood, orr, and wong are absolutely horrible in the passing game. there are only 2 positions that i'd really consider needs on defense ... the first being free safety where i'd gladly use a first round pick, the second is outside linebacker where i trust kubiak to find an undersized ballhawk much like gold and johnson in denver.

dirty steve said:

Burke probably doesnt have the defensive range or arm after originally being drafted as a SS out of Tennessee in 2001. SS is usually the IF position that the best fielder resides at, i.e. Adam Everett of the Astros. Taveras was statiscally one of the worst offensive players in the National League last year. He just continued the ausmus-everett-SP black hole from the bottom of the lineup, although his defense might have saved a few games also. couple that with biggio's vanishing act over a good portion of the season, that's 5 positions in the lineup where you received next to nothing most nights. i'll take burke in center if he can give me more than what Taveras did. shoot, if it's up to me biggio sits after that 3000th hit, burke moves in from CF, and hunter pence gets a headstart on 2008. really amazing what puma did last year with zero protection.

sorry about the Astros rant.

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You obviously don't follow the 'Stro's and need to stick to football. Or maybe hockey. Burke is a HIGHLY touted 2nd base prospect, NOT outfielder, and Taveras' speed made him a legitimate CF AND leadoff hitter. He did pretty dang good at both and I hate to see him gone. I see it as Purpura's biggest blunder so far. I'll take Biggio at 2nd til he decides to hang up his cleats. If you disagree, you don't enjoy the sport and history of baseball as much as I do. To each his own. Burke, like Berkman, will enjoy his nest seasons at his natural position. I know we need offense for the 'Stro's, but I still wish we had Willie T.

not to encourage an astros rant in the bullpen, but the best thing willie T could do is become an astro again. we ruined willie as a pro by bringing him along too quickly. the best thing he can do is join the farm system in AAA where we're great at developing talent. there he can refine his stroke and become the leadoff hitter he was supposed to be for a couple of years without the pressure of stats and championships (jumping from AA to pro is a bad idea unless it's a prodigy like d-train in florida). willie should've been a year ahead of pence, which puts willie starting this year and pence next year ... along with lee completing our outfield (in a perfect world). as for burke, the infatuation is purely houston based. he's an average hitter, an average fielder ... but he's a houston astro and young so that automatically makes him a fan favorite. his 18th inning shot also makes him an icon. he doesnt compare to biggio as a first half player, and like biggio, he falls off as the season progresses. his offense is NOT comperable to everette's defense ... bad BAD arguement. shortstop and catcher are positions where you trade bats for gloves, which is what we've done and we have two of the best in baseball.

dvs1 said:

I think we need to upgrade FS but I think CB2 is in even more of a dire need. Brown not the most talented FS more suited for SS but he at least gives you a legitimate option, where as Faggins would barely make it as a nickle for most teams. I never understood the man crush Texans fans had for Fagggins.

I liken it to the Astros, you got Willy T in Center and Everett at Short. If you want to upgrade the offense put Burke at short not Center, Willy at least gave you something.

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CC Brown wouldnt even make second string on most teams. Faggins would.

gtexan02 said:

I see a lot of people clamoring for Landry on this board, and Im just curious. What do you think a really good FS does for the team? Is it more or less important than a true #2 cornerback? How different of a team is Baltimore when Ed Reed is injured? How much of a difference did Chris Hope make for the Titans D? And how much did it hurt the Steelers to lose him?

I think Landry is a special athlete, and I think FS is a can't miss position in the NFL draft.

Im just a little concerned with the "bang for your buck" mentality. How much does a FS really improve the team? How important is the position? And how much of an upgrade would someone like Landry be over Brown?

On the one hand, I can see it being a huge upgrade. Suddenly the CBs don't have to be on islands covering the WRs. In deep zones, there would be someone to help over the top. We could double true 1 WR teams.

On the other hand, FS can only play half the field, so we are still left with the same problem we have now. What do we do with the weak half of the field?

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You can only fill one hole at a time, with one player. I personally believe CC Brown is one of the 3 weakest starters on the field for us, and upgrading that position to a Bona-Fide stud would do amazing things for a defense that is already doing good things. A Good Safety (Sanders, Polamalu, Ed Reed, Roy Williams, Sean Taylor, Rodney Harrison, etc. etc. ad nauseum) can help erase the mistakes your cornerbacks make, provide support in the run game, and if you get a true ballhawk back there can change the course of a defense's turnover ratio. We play in a division with a team with 2 premier recievers, (harrison and wayne), so it seems to me our secondary should be heavily emphasized. If we don't walk away with Landry, Nelson, or Merriweather, or some diamond in the rough FS of EQUAL or better playmaking ability, then i'm going to be highly disappointed in this draft.

Yeah I agree, we've been beefing up the front 7 the past couple of seasons with first round DLmen and LBs and FAs, its time to throw some bones to the secondary. Peyton always burns us back there, I would also love to start seeing some coverage sacks and I can't honesty say when I've ever seen one. Maybe Dunta's rookie season when he had Glenn next to him and Coleman at FS (I know he sucked in 05, but he had a good year in 04)

I think the folks pushing the Landry pick think like I do... the secondary is not getting it done. Landry, on paper at least, is probably the most talented player available to fill one of our biggest needs.

It looks like there will be some good CB's in later rounds, including one named Bannister that may be a sleeper like a few others we have picked up. (Dunta, DD/DW, etc.)

Also, the fact that we are picking up RB's and help on the lines through FA make me think the Front Office is thinking about addressing the secondary in the draft.

Well this is my position so I always have a strong argument for the importance, ahem

In my opinion safety is the second most important position on the defensive side of the ball behind defensive ends. Here's my quick spill on why defensive end is important, if you cut down every run on the outside, it forces it inside, where you always have teamates to help you, if they are forced to run inside you have 3 linebackers on average, and two safetys filling in, and its head to head, so harder to juke or do anything crazy. Also if you have awesome d ends, you can make your d bs a lot better. I am not that great of a fs, but we had an all-state dt/de, and when he was putting pressure on the qb, I was able to make big plays, almost every single interception we had this season, was while the d end was in his face.


Now why safety is important:

Safety is the most versatile position on defense, what a safety usually does before and during each play is crucial. Before each play the safety reads the sets, for example, if he sees a tight end and a 1 wr set on his side of the field, he will check to a cover 4 look on his side so he can be head up on the te and the corner can cut off anything deep on the wideout, while the olb can drop hook to curl flats and cut off passing lanes. If the safety sees two wr on his side, he will check to a cover two often so he can take away the deep threat with a jam by the corner, and a linebacker will carry the seam on the inside the receiver, after that he plays by the simple rule "one goes away two comes to play". Basically everything I just said is what goes through a safetys head before each play. The Safety has the eyes behind hte defense and makes a lot of coverage checks, the safety is the qb on defense, and must watch a whole lot of film. Simply knowing a qb s throwing motion in order to jump a route is crucial. If you have a dominating free safety they will come up on the run well, and that guarantees a 5 yard max on each carry, that is if the rest of the d doesn't do its job. A good free safety also takes away any deep threat, a team going against ed reed that week will say, alright (qb) don't throw it deep if you panic, ed reed is back there. And a good free safety is like having a good closer in baseball, when tthe other team is doing the two minute drill, the free safety keeps hte defense organized and also is the last line of defense. Having a good free safety that lays the wood also puts a mental fear in receivers minds of not wanting to go across the middle, the prescence of that will make receivers flinch before going for balls across the middle, enough time for a safety to make a play.


I am all for Laron Landy being here... he was a leader of the best defense in ncaa. He brought the noise with his hits, and he was a playmaker on offense during high school, so he has that natural athelticsm to him (sean taylor also played offense in high school)

dvs1 said:

I think we need to upgrade FS but I think CB2 is in even more of a dire need.

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Exactly.
No matter how good our FS might be, if the opposition has 2 good WRs they can isolate one of them on our weak corner and burn us big-time.
LSU is a very successful team in our region, and a lot of people follow them and in particular some individuals on their team like 4-year starter Landry.
And lots of posters were frustrated that we didn't get Sean Taylor a few years, and still think someone like him is a necessity for a successful D.
We need a strong #2 corner to go with D-Rob and a strong edge rusher to play weakside DE more than a top FS, IMO.

nunusguy said:

Exactly.
No matter how good our FS might be, if the opposition has 2 good WRs they can isolate one of them on our weak corner and burn us big-time.
LSU is a very successful team in our region, and a lot of people follow them and in particular some individuals on their team like 4-year starter Landry.
And lots of posters were frustrated that we didn't get Sean Taylor a few years, and still think someone like him is a necessity for a successful D.
We need a strong #2 corner to go with D-Rob and a strong edge rusher to play weakside DE more than a top FS, IMO.

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I dont see the difference. If you have one weak CB and a ballhawking FS covering one WR and you have your stronger corner covering the other WR. How is that different from having two strong CB's and putting single coverage on both WR's. Or having two strong CB's and still double teaming the weakerside with the FS. Either way you still have one good coverage guy and one bad coverage guy on both WR's.

But Faggins is decent for a short amount of yards. He mainly gets beat deep were a good FS will help him alot. Were CC Brown is just bad in coverage everywere. A FS will also help in run defense more than a CB.

nunusguy said:

Exactly.
No matter how good our FS might be, if the opposition has 2 good WRs they can isolate one of them on our weak corner and burn us big-time.
LSU is a very successful team in our region, and a lot of people follow them and in particular some individuals on their team like 4-year starter Landry.
And lots of posters were frustrated that we didn't get Sean Taylor a few years, and still think someone like him is a necessity for a successful D.
We need a strong #2 corner to go with D-Rob and a strong edge rusher to play weakside DE more than a top FS, IMO.

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if they isolate our weak corner, can we cheat our new free safety? i'm not a college football fan so dont tie me to any player. a free safety covers our deficiencies and accentuates our strengths. even if we signed both nate clements and champ bailey we'd still be hurting for a free safety. if we sign a free safety he can cover for average cornerbacks ... it doesnt not work in reverse ... unless you choose to forget randy moss, andre johnson, and marvin harrison who beat EVERYONE. the only way to contain these players is with a ball-hawk centerfielder. and incase you missed the past 7 years, peyton manning loves it when teams sit in man coverage ... name your best 5 cornerbacks of all time, and peyton will pick them apart in man. mix a zone blitz with intelligent coverage and you've got a chance.

ed reed fixes faggins, roc, and dunta. champ bailey does not fix brown & earl.

At this point I think we need to take who ever we deem the best DB prospect. Whether that player play SS, FS, or CB...

We could use an upgrade at any of those positions...

Scooter said:

if they isolate our weak corner, can we cheat our new free safety? i'm not a college football fan so dont tie me to any player. a free safety covers our deficiencies and accentuates our strengths. even if we signed both nate clements and champ bailey we'd still be hurting for a free safety. if we sign a free safety he can cover for average cornerbacks ... it doesnt not work in reverse ... unless you choose to forget randy moss, andre johnson, and marvin harrison who beat EVERYONE. the only way to contain these players is with a ball-hawk centerfielder. and incase you missed the past 7 years, peyton manning loves it when teams sit in man coverage ... name your best 5 cornerbacks of all time, and peyton will pick them apart in man. mix a zone blitz with intelligent coverage and you've got a chance.

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No, there aren't very man corners that can hold the elite recievers one on one, but if you have a lock down corner like Champ Bailey, he can essentially eliminate a side of the field...

And it does work in reverse, just like every other position...

A good corner, takes pressure off the safeties and a good FS takes a little pressure off the corners...

We don't have the luxury of picking a player based on position...We need to take the best player on the board in all rounds, basically at any position...

South Texan said:

I think the folks pushing the Landry pick think like I do... the secondary is not getting it done. Landry, on paper at least, is probably the most talented player available to fill one of our biggest needs.

It looks like there will be some good CB's in later rounds, including one named Bannister that may be a sleeper like a few others we have picked up. (Dunta, DD/DW, etc.)

Also, the fact that we are picking up RB's and help on the lines through FA make me think the Front Office is thinking about addressing the secondary in the draft.

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Am I the only person here that sees that Landry is a SS, NOT a FS??????? His strong suits are not deep coverage, if that's what we're going for, grab Reggie Nelson, and if we don't want to use a 1st rounders, then get Merriweather. He's still a good ball-hawking FS, and better than Landry (in coverage), and we only have to use a second round pick.

I was playing NCAA 07 as Texas VS LSU in the National Championship game (dyansty mode, I went 14-0) and I ran a running play. It looked like I was free to the end zone when out of nowhere comes IMPACT player FS #30 (Landry) and he slams into me, forcing a fumble which an LSU player recovers.

freedoggy77 said:

I was playing NCAA 07 as Texas VS LSU in the National Championship game (dyansty mode, I went 14-0) and I ran a running play. It looked like I was free to the end zone when out of nowhere comes IMPACT player FS #30 (Landry) and he slams into me, forcing a fumble which an LSU player recovers.

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Dallas_Texan said:

Am I the only person here that sees that Landry is a SS, NOT a FS??????? His strong suits are not deep coverage, if that's what we're going for, grab Reggie Nelson, and if we don't want to use a 1st rounders, then get Merriweather. He's still a good ball-hawking FS, and better than Landry (in coverage), and we only have to use a second round pick.

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I don't know, because I don't follow college, but that sure makes a huge difference. We don't need another SS.

Dallas_Texan said:

Am I the only person here that sees that Landry is a SS, NOT a FS??????? His strong suits are not deep coverage, if that's what we're going for, grab Reggie Nelson, and if we don't want to use a 1st rounders, then get Merriweather. He's still a good ball-hawking FS, and better than Landry (in coverage), and we only have to use a second round pick.

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Hmmmm, no you have that backwards. Merriweather is a SS and Landry is in fact a FS. Landry does have good cover skills and would be a huge improvement over CC Brown.

xtruroyaltyx said:

No, there aren't very man corners that can hold the elite recievers one on one, but if you have a lock down corner like Champ Bailey, he can essentially eliminate a side of the field...

And it does work in reverse, just like every other position...

A good corner, takes pressure off the safeties and a good FS takes a little pressure off the corners...

We don't have the luxury of picking a player based on position...We need to take the best player on the board in all rounds, basically at any position...

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we're working in degrees. an elite cornerback can close off that side of the field to an extent (champ on an island gets scored on as much as anyone else). a good centerfielder however elevates average cornerbacks. we have average cornerbacks and no free safety. which will make the bigger impact? one great cornerback, one good cornerback, and no safety? or a good safety raising the bar and abled aggressiveness of our cornerbacks? champ bailey isnt going to be drafted this year ... chris hope or mccree or sean taylor is very possible with nelson & landy at the 8 spot.

again, we're being too general. what i'm arguing is the houston texans. i cannot make this example more clear that the bills game and indy games. buffalo beat us over the top with speed. indy always beats us because we have to rely on nickel packages and are overwhelmed with intermediate and deep crossing routes. we have noone playing centerfield with the athleticism and judgment to make an impact. champ bailey doesnt clear us in that aspect because marvin harrison against him in our scheme would make champ a chump. i'm arguing texans.

Dallas_Texan said:

Am I the only person here that sees that Landry is a SS, NOT a FS??????? His strong suits are not deep coverage, if that's what we're going for, grab Reggie Nelson, and if we don't want to use a 1st rounders, then get Merriweather. He's still a good ball-hawking FS, and better than Landry (in coverage), and we only have to use a second round pick.

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I'm with you. Landry is a hitter, and that for obvious reasons is appealing to
football fans. It is football, right.
But Landry is not fluid and smooth in response as Nelson is, which is more the
signature of a true FS. But deep coverage is essential for a sucessful FS. That's exactly the problem with the Cowboys FS, Roy Williams.
And this thing about "cheating" with a safety to compensate for a weak corner is just the sort of thing a smart QB like P. Manning will take advantage
of.
I say give me 2 descent corners and respectable pressure on the QB, and even mediorce safeties will succeed.

Scooter said:

we're working in degrees. an elite cornerback can close off that side of the field to an extent (champ on an island gets scored on as much as anyone else). a good centerfielder however elevates average cornerbacks. we have average cornerbacks and no free safety. which will make the bigger impact? one great cornerback, one good cornerback, and no safety? or a good safety raising the bar and abled aggressiveness of our cornerbacks? champ bailey isnt going to be drafted this year ... chris hope or mccree or sean taylor is very possible with nelson & landy at the 8 spot.

again, we're being too general. what i'm arguing is the houston texans. i cannot make this example more clear that the bills game and indy games. buffalo beat us over the top with speed. indy always beats us because we have to rely on nickel packages and are overwhelmed with intermediate and deep crossing routes. we have noone playing centerfield with the athleticism and judgment to make an impact. champ bailey doesnt clear us in that aspect because marvin harrison against him in our scheme would make champ a chump. i'm arguing texans.

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I don't agree.

If I want to improve my pass coverage, I'm going to take Champ Bailey over Ed Reed, 99 times out of 99.

I don't think Champ is the more valuable player overall, because a safety can help in the pass as well on the run on any given play.

but if you're talking about improving pass coverage, IMO, a good corner would help more in that department than a good FS.

nunusguy said:

I'm with you. Landry is a hitter, and that for obvious reasons is appealing to
football fans. It is football, right.
But Landry is not fluid and smooth in response as Nelson is, which is more the
signature of a true FS. But deep coverage is essential for a sucessful FS. That's exactly the problem with the Cowboys FS, Roy Williams.
And this thing about "cheating" with a safety to compensate for a weak corner is just the sort of thing a smart QB like P. Manning will take advantage
of.
I say give me 2 descent corners and respectable pressure on the QB, and even mediorce safeties will succeed.

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you're new to peyton and cheating ... feel free to see what happens when teams cheat in their assignments. peyton recognizes, adjusts, and joey porter lands on top of him. the only way to beat peyton is cheating assignments ... the catch is disguising which are real and which arent. that's why peyton has historically struggled against zone blitz 3-4's and had trouble with denver's "punt block rush". the texans are what 1-9? that's the record you get by going into each game in a nickel interior zone with minor blitzing. you get picked apart. it's hard to blitz 7+ though when you have cc brown over the top nomatter who's playing corner.

roy williams doesnt get the respect he deserves. his fault is getting burnt at the worst time. he can disrupt 200 passes but the one to win the game is the one he misses and that's what he's remembered for. sean taylor is the same player but with better luck. bad example IMO. there isnt a team in the league that wouldnt love to have him.

And just to clarify, Roy is a SS, not a FS

xtruroyaltyx said:

I don't agree.

If I want to improve my pass coverage, I'm going to take Champ Bailey over Ed Reed, 99 times out of 99.

I don't think Champ is the more valuable player overall, because a safety can help in the pass as well on the run on any given play.

but if you're talking about improving pass coverage, IMO, a good corner would help more in that department than a good FS.

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does that work for the texans though? throw in champ and we're done? champ doesnt fix brown, simmons, & earl. we're nowhere near that talented yet. reed however fixes dunta, roc, and faggins. we have a very strong short and intermediate zone/man. what the texans are lacking is a centerfielder. with smith's safety and cornerback blitz schemes, along with our zone in/man out schemes, and indy's crossing & post specialty ... how does a chasing cornerback compare to a deep inside presence?

gtexan02 said:

And just to clarify, Roy is a SS, not a FS

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technically he plays both depending on down and situation.

Scooter said:

does that work for the texans though? throw in champ and we're done? champ doesnt fix brown, simmons, & earl. we're nowhere near that talented yet. reed however fixes dunta, roc, and faggins. we have a very strong short and intermediate zone/man. what the texans are lacking is a centerfielder. with smith's safety and cornerback blitz schemes, along with our zone in/man out schemes, and indy's crossing & post specialty ... how does a chasing cornerback compare to a deep inside presence?

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Why do you assume the corner gets beat, while the FS is a hero ?


A FS is only one person, just like a CB is. Just as easy as it is for a CB to get burnt, it's equally as easy for a FS to not be in the right place at the right time.

I'm not really getting your argument because it's like you're suggesting that any FS we add is going to make less mistakes than a corner, and I don't really know why you'd assume that.

If you are strictly talking about improving pass coverage, Champ Bailey helps us more than Sean Taylor or Ed Reed.

Our pass defense went downhill when we lost Glen.

Offenses target a defenses weakest link. That position has been Right Corner since Aaron Glenn left. If we upgrade that position this defense is going to be much better, if we don't it's going to be another long year. Yes, we need to upgrade FS, but CB is a more pressing need. I hope we address it in later rounds.

gtexan02 said:

And just to clarify, Roy is a SS, not a FS

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If that's the case, I stand corrected though I thought he played FS extensively in recent years ? He is clearly a LB who should not be playing safey, even SS.
One of the leagues truly OVERRATED players and a real CS !
Ever since I saw him hit Denver WR Rod Smith, on the ground, after the play was blown dead, in the meaningless Pro Bowl game exibition game in Honolulu last year, he's at the head of my list for dirty players in the NFL.

Just curious. I have heard all of this upside about Landry and seen him play but does anyone have an idea of what some of weaknesses might be?

xtruroyaltyx said:

Why do you assume the corner gets beat, while the FS is a hero ?


A FS is only one person, just like a CB is. Just as easy as it is for a CB to get burnt, it's equally as easy for a FS to not be in the right place at the right time.

I'm not really getting your argument because it's like you're suggesting that any FS we add is going to make less mistakes than a corner, and I don't really know why you'd assume that.

If you are strictly talking about improving pass coverage, Champ Bailey helps us more than Sean Taylor or Ed Reed.

Our pass defense went downhill when we lost Glen.

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i dont assume the CB gets beat and FS is hero ... my assumption is that the CB is going to get beat nomatter who's playing the position. the hero as you very well know depends wholly on the qb's mistake. dunta, aaron glenn, champ bailey, deon friggin sanders ... all get beat. corners get beat, what coaches can do is scheme around their strengths and that focuses on safeties ... our strengths are at the LOS with dunta, and short-intermediate zone coverages with roc & faggins. which free agent or draft pick is going to change that for you? i have two draft picks (nelson & landry) available to let our cornerbacks play their strengths with abandon. where our cornerbacks get beat is when they dont have coverage behind them (or have brown/earl/simmons trying to play catchup). when they dont have coverage behind their strengths, lee evans has 250 receiving yards in the first quarter or peyton manning puts up 30 points in the first half.

Scooter said:

i dont assume the CB gets beat and FS is hero ... my assumption is that the CB is going to get beat nomatter who's playing the position. the hero as you very well know depends wholly on the qb's mistake. dunta, aaron glenn, champ bailey, deon friggin sanders ... all get beat.

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This is exaclty what I'm talking about...

Just like all those guys get beat, So do Brian Dawkins, Ed Reed, Troy Polumalu and Bob Sanders...

I'm still trying to figure out what the point is of saying "all cornerbacks get beat"...

So do all DE's, DT's, LT's, C's, RB's, WR's, QB's, coaches, trainers, D-coordinators, Water boys, and every other living thing...

No one wins all the time...not even a good FS.

Again, why do you assume that a cornerback will be beat more than a FS ?

JMO:

A SS can make a huge impact on a D that is already solid (see Polamalu). Without having to use him to cover another obvious hole, it allows a stud SS to cause havoc.
But, a stud SS on a weak defense will not be able to create havoc because he will be trying to cover weak spots. His numbers might look good, but the defense will still be weak (see Roy Willams - numbers great with weaker players and number worse but defense better with stronger players - but still not creating havoc like polamalu because the D has "weak" spots he has to cover).

A stud CB shuts down half the field. So, a "stud" CB is worth a lot. But, they are hard to find. There isn't one in this draft - the ones in this draft might be solid - but not studs (we are guessing but based on probability none are - if one was that solid he would be projected top 5).

A good CB solidifies half the field. A good CB would allow a stud SS/FS to create havoc.

A stud FS can create massive problems for an offense. Combined with a decent CB, the deep pass becomes risky at any time (Reed 2004). Combined with a weaker CB, he also have to cover the weak spots limiting his effectiveness (Reed 2005).

Which can be exploited?
An offense can exploit a weak CB all day long - no matter what safeties are behind him.
It is much harder to exploit a weak S - the D can adjust a lot. Of course, if you put a really weak player out there - he will be exploited.

Cost?
Safeties are cheap. Teams can get a good S in FA.
CBs are expensive. Forget finding a decent CB in FA - without really paying.
Plus, if we are spending huge money on DL (which we are), we have to have some "cheap" players contributing. It would be easier to get a "cheap" S. A "cheap" CB is probably going to be burned a lot.

My prognosis:
Draft a stud CB if you can. Draft a good one if you can't get a stud.
After your CBs are set - then spend a pick on a S to take your D to "stud level."

That being said - if Griffin or Meriweather were there in round 2 - I would take them. But, that is because I think they are more likely to succeed than any CB we could take there (or other position for that matter).
I would not take a S at #8 because we need to fill other holes and that pick lets us fill holes that are hard to fill with later picks. If we traded down a few spots - perhaps to 12 or 13, then I would have to consider Landry/Nelson.

The question should be which is the best player left on the board - for my team and my salary cap?
At #8: qb or rb if there. In this draft, assuming Quinn and AD are gone, then stud DL will be there. It makes sense to take one because they are hard to find and it will be value. Plus, we need one anyway.

#10-20: Depends upon teams evaluations, but any "stud" can be chosen (if team projects Landry/Nelson as studs). But, also when a "good" CB would be taken (there will be several teams that "reach" in this area because you have to - I think Houston would be a great on in this area).

After 20: All CBs lower than that are usually very risky, just like QBs. That is when the "solid" LB/OL picks really begin to happen (it is easier to predict those positions).

So, if it were me, I go DL (if QB and RB are gone) in the top 10. After that, secondary (whether it be Houston/Landry/Nelson/etc.). So, maybe we trade down if we can (because I do enjoy watching a stud S on a team - almost as much as I hate watching a CB being repeatedly torched).

swtbound07 said:

If we don't walk away with Landry, Nelson, or Merriweather, or some diamond in the rough FS of EQUAL or better playmaking ability, then i'm going to be highly disappointed in this draft.

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Same here. Even if we draft someone else in the 1st round (Brady Quinn ), 4 S will not be drafted in the 1st round (I hope). Landry, Nelson, Merriweather, & Griffin are all great safetys that could be had. I would LOVE to have Landry, but I'm losing confidence with all these Quinn articles. My 2nd choice would be Griffin. If we could sign Hamlin & play Griffin at SS, are secondary could be the strength of the team.

Dallas_Texan said:

Am I the only person here that sees that Landry is a SS, NOT a FS??????? His strong suits are not deep coverage, if that's what we're going for, grab Reggie Nelson, and if we don't want to use a 1st rounders, then get Merriweather. He's still a good ball-hawking FS, and better than Landry (in coverage), and we only have to use a second round pick.

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I dont think Landry is a SS...he's versatile enough to play SS because he is very strong in run support...but he is also very good in coverage. He would most likely play FS on every team in the NFL.

Reggie Nelson is a FS/CB guy. he's good in coverage but poor in tackling. Don't mis understand me...he lays the wood and will knock the crud our of the wr..he has big hits...but they are mostly all with his shoulder...he's also smaller and lighter than landry so i would be concerned about his durability being a full time FS in the NFL. Landry is a great tackler who wraps up the wr...nelson does not.

Reggie Nelson also will not be there in the 2nd round. It was looking like he could possibly slide because of his poor combine outing but he erased all that with his pro day by running a 4.35 40 and doing well in the other drills...he will be going top 20 most likely.

I think Landry is more of a Texans type player anyways. He is good in coverage...MUCH better than CC brown. Landry is more of a complete player that is very good all around..coverage and run support/tackling. He is also very bright..he knows how to study game film. At the combine he interviewed w/ the Ravens where his brother plays and basically recited a busted play of the ravens last year from memory and told them what he would have done differently and corrected it...they were blown away by landry. Landry is also a great leader that would be a great QB of our secondary like someone mentioned previously.

Michael Griffin is more of a SS than the others in this draft class. There is a chance both he and Meriweather could go in the 2nd round. Meriweather has all the talent..but character issues are a concern and are probably the only reason he slips.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with Glen Earl at SS at all. Him and CC should both be our SS. If we sign a decent FS in FA and draft a top CB in the 1st round...our secondary will be great. ss is not an issue for me on this team.

Ole Miss Texan said:

Michael Griffin is more of a SS than the others in this draft class. There is a chance both he and Meriweather could go in the 2nd round. Meriweather has all the talent..but character issues are a concern and are probably the only reason he slips.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with Glen Earl at SS at all. Him and CC should both be our SS. If we sign a decent FS in FA and draft a top CB in the 1st round...our secondary will be great. ss is not an issue for me on this team.

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I would love to see Hamlin brought in as our FS and a CB drafted on day 1. If playing in our division means facing the Colts twice per year, you can never have too much talent in the secondary.

Yeah I played NCAA 07 and won the national championship with Houston, and a heisman with Kolb. Video games are different from the real thing. I have a feeling the Texans will move down to get Quinn, and leave the defense hanging yet again. We need OLBs, CBs, a FS, and a SS, a QB can me found in the 3rd round easy.

Importance is high and getting higher around the league for this position. While I don't agree that it is second on D behind the DE (because I think that spot or maybe even the #1 goes to the MLB in a 4-3), they can be real difference makers which is the point of this thread.

It used to be that you could hide a guy back there that was a little weak and still be ok but today teams find a way to exploit weak matchups very well. And, offenses attack the middle of the field very well these days with their TE's (who are also playing an ever increasing role in today's game).

Therefore, if we don't get Hamlin, then IMO we are probably telegraphing our intention to take Landry with the 8th pick unless some lightning bolt trade thing trumps all that.