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Offensive line is NOT that bad...

David's Busted Carr

David's Busted Carr

Waterboy
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...
 
If we could really just get some continuity on the OL, I think you could be right? Have we ever had a full season in our brief little history of having all five starters play from week 1 to week 16?
 
If Adrian Peterson does not fall to #8 in the draft then I hope that we get Brown in the first since Thomas will be gone. Whatever quaterback we have starting this year will benefit from an extra second or two that a good o-line man can provide him. Hopefully it will let the recievers have time to get some seperation or get a step on a defender going for the long ball.
 
David's Busted Carr said:
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...
Click to expand...


If we drafted Levi Brown, Brandon Merriwether or Aaron Ross (Kick returner and solid CB), and Samson Satele, we'd have the makings of a much-improved O-Line and secondary.
 
I agree, I think all the offensive line needs is some more playing time together. They will get better, they just need a chance without constantly switching things up.
 
Some "sleepers" according to Len Pastabelly, that could pay off for their price:

Damion McIntosh OT
Sean Mahan C/OG
Jordan Black OT
Al Johnson C
Alfonso Boone DT
Travis Fisher CB

All come with some issues, but all would satisfy a Houston need.

I'll still hold out for Gandy though. :shades:
 
David's Busted Carr said:
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...
Click to expand...

I agree that we should really consider drafting Levi Brown (along with Landry, Lynch, or a DL).

However, I still don't understand how David Carr gets ripped for having 5 years to succeed and failing, but MicKinney, Weary, and Pitts get labeled "solid". These guys have been constants on some of the worst pass-blocking O-lines in history!!

I'm not saying "just cut/trade them" like DC, but we need to look get our replacements for these guys now. Looking at the current roster isn't pretty.

Flanagan, at best, was a stop gap due to his age.
Hodgdon proved that he couldn't handle the pivot after Flanagan got hurt.

Thanks to the Babin and P-Buc trades we haven't had the middle round picks to draft good interior linemen. These trades were the biggets mistakes of the Casserly era, because not only did the players not live up to the price we paid, but the cost us 4 picks in the we could have used on future starters and/or quality depth.

This year's draft has a number of solid interior lineman that can be had in the middle rounds. We should definitely be looking to add at least 2 (like we did at tackle last year), if we a truly committed to fixing this mess we call our offensive line.
 
Funny how the Oline gets the blame for ALL the sacks Carr has taken, but alot of those sacks are on CARR. He takes way too long to get rid of the ball and in some cases just runs around back there like a chicken with his head cut off.

In fact I was watching an NFL insider show once and it compared the time of the release of a bunch of NFL QBs. Most of them were at 3-4 seconds and the ball was GONE. With Carr 6-7-8 and he's still running around with the ball. I'm sorry, but even the best OL can't block those HUGE defensive lineman forever!
 
mj. said:
I agree that we should really consider drafting Levi Brown (along with Landry, Lynch, or a DL).

However, I still don't understand how David Carr gets ripped for having 5 years to succeed and failing, but MicKinney, Weary, and Pitts get labeled "solid". These guys have been constants on some of the worst pass-blocking O-lines in history!!

I'm not saying "just cut/trade them" like DC, but we need to look get our replacements for these guys now. Looking at the current roster isn't pretty.

Flanagan, at best, was a stop gap due to his age.
Hodgdon proved that he couldn't handle the pivot after Flanagan got hurt.

Thanks to the Babin and P-Buc trades we haven't had the middle round picks to draft good interior linemen. These trades were the biggets mistakes of the Casserly era, because not only did the players not live up to the price we paid, but the cost us 4 picks in the we could have used on future starters and/or quality depth.

This year's draft has a number of solid interior lineman that can be had in the middle rounds. We should definitely be looking to add at least 2 (like we did at tackle last year), if we a truly committed to fixing this mess we call our offensive line.
Click to expand...

I agree, for the most part. I don't think Pitts & Weary are all that... They aren't bad, but not where they should be.

I like Levi Brown..... he looks like a ZBS LT. But I don't know if we should spend a first on him.

Denver just traded the only OLman they've drafted in the first round in over a decade, which tells me it's possible to get quality LTs for this system in later rounds(as if Spencer wasn't enough evidence). It's even possble to find quality players for this system as undrafted free agents, like Eric Pears who was undrafted out of Colorado state in 2005, and started the last 10 games in 2006 for Denver, at LT. Tom Nalen... 7th round draft pick, who started 183 of 189 games since 1994, at Center. 4th round pick Ben Hamilton who's started every game since 2002 at LG.
 
David's Busted Carr said:
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...
Click to expand...


That would be something completly different.

I guess you and McClain shared a doobie this morning and figgured out the '07 season. So what makes you think with this group you're going to get any more production...protection, than you got last year ? Kubiak and Smith are spinning our cap woes this moring, the wooing of two thiry somethings and a broke backed WR as positive signs that we're ok. I thought the turn about by the chronicles writters this morning was prety astounding myself. They didn't get this from no where. Someone is feeding them this. I just wish they'd come out and say it...we sux, we're in bad shape with the cap, and untill we take a season in the short hairs and get the cap monster in controll, it's pretty much going to be the same deal next year with wins and results. And yes chicken little the clouds are around our ears this morning. The proof is in the amount of spin. There are far too many holes in the rooster to get them all fixed in one off season. One part of the equation for some appears to be solved this morning...DC is moving on. The next part is what do you do with which hole(s) and when. The trouble for me is if they are spinning these free agents into starked improvements for the team...what else in their spin is just about as trust worthy ? The caliber of tallent on the o-line maybe ? What is shocking to me this morning is there are still some who'll be spoon feed the drivel and believe it. Mind Boggeling. The second clue is they are reporting this morning that they will go after one maybe two OTs in the draft. That reads to me that they are going to shot gun the OTs the second day and hope that they hit one.

The good news, that this is a great class to move down with in the draft. There is a lot of speed on the boards. A lot of tallent at every position between 8 and 141. It is conceivable that they fill four more holes this draft. That would put us closer to where everyone wants them to be.
 
FWIW, the Chrons John McClain said yesterday on SR 610 that the Texans
have decided they are happy with Eric Winston as their RT after his play in
the latter part of last season, and expect him to be their guy at RT in 2007.
And I think we are in good shape in the interior, though starting to get long in the tooth for the future and more depth would be nice. And I'm not against upgrades if we can find it in our budget ?
But the big concern, as has been our history, is LT. And with the uncertainty
about the recovery from injury of last years LT Spencer, there is more of the
same for the future.
 
threetoedpete said:
That would be something completly different.

I guess you and McClain shared a doobie this morning and figgured out the '07 season. So what makes you think with this group you're going to get any more production...protection, than you got last year ?
Click to expand...

I'd be happy with last year's protection. As a team, we gave up 43 sacks. I'd like better, but we could expect a winning season with 43.

Dallas & Cincy gave up 37 & 36 sacks, and managed to get into the playoffs. Pittsburgh gave up 49 sacks, and they finished 8-8. So did St Louis(although in the NFC), and Seattle with 49 sacks won their division at 9-7, again in the NFC, and in a weak division.

I think the gap is closing in the AFC South. Indy won the SuperBowl, but they weren't the dominating team they used to be, and only went 3-3 in this division in '06.

& we are a lot closer to Jacksonville & Tennessee than many people want to admit.
 
The offensive line has been guilty, for five years straight, of making an elite Hall of Fame QB look bad.

How you can possibly prop them will get you the evil eye from fans of a certain QB. Tow the company line now, because it's always the offensive line's fault. :winky:

Sorry, my inner sarcasm got the best of me. Please carry on with a great thread.
 
Winston- played like a rookie his first 2 games but played better toward the end. I think he will be RG next year.

Weary- Average if best. He will be replace.

Flangan- Worst play this season from start to his injury. I see him being cut.

Mckinney- Played good when he played. Should be consider starting next year if they resign him.

Pitts- Started off poorly but was very consistant in the 2nd half of the Season.

Spencers- Unknown... good when he played but didnt play much and how will we come back from injury?

They are below average overall last year. They started off slow and with injuries did the best they could. I see them drafting or signing a LT, Pitts, Mckinney, Winston and Spencer (if healthy)
 
thunderkyss said:
I'd be happy with last year's protection. As a team, we gave up 43 sacks. I'd like better, but we could expect a winning season with 43.

Dallas & Cincy gave up 37 & 36 sacks, and managed to get into the playoffs. Pittsburgh gave up 49 sacks, and they finished 8-8. So did St Louis(although in the NFC), and Seattle with 49 sacks won their division at 9-7, again in the NFC, and in a weak division.

I think the gap is closing in the AFC South. Indy won the SuperBowl, but they weren't the dominating team they used to be, and only went 3-3 in this division in '06.
& we are a lot closer to Jacksonville & Tennessee than many people want to admit.
Click to expand...

It is a very bad mistake TK to interject parameters into future seasons based on circumstacnes that you have no way of knowing will repeat themseves...Like the Colts coming in here at the end of a season with a banged up D and we dink and dunk for four quarters with out a major mistake. We weren't the only ones who upset the colts down the strech. So how big of deal was it really ? The gap isn't closing, the Colts are aging and the cap numbers are getting to them. My book says we're way far behind them still. They can protect ther QB, we however can not. Titans get some speed to go with Vincent...we ain't catching them this season with our DBs.
It's very difficult to sweep anyone in back to back seasons. So how are you going to repeat 3-3 as you say. As always, I believe you absolutly dead wrong in your evaluation. We'll see.

So tell me again TK how much back up qbs make in the league again ?
 
David's Busted Carr said:
Funny how the Oline gets the blame for ALL the sacks Carr has taken, but alot of those sacks are on CARR. He takes way too long to get rid of the ball and in some cases just runs around back there like a chicken with his head cut off.

In fact I was watching an NFL insider show once and it compared the time of the release of a bunch of NFL QBs. Most of them were at 3-4 seconds and the ball was GONE. With Carr 6-7-8 and he's still running around with the ball. I'm sorry, but even the best OL can't block those HUGE defensive lineman forever!
Click to expand...

So those 6, 7, and 8 second plays was the reason we switched to the "one step drop" offense in 2005? I think the next time this offensive line gives 8 seconds of protection will be the first. I realize Carr is as hated a figure as any recent athlete in Houston sports, but lets not make up lies about the rest of the team to better fit our ideas that DC is the only thing wrong with the Texans. This offensive line broke Carr, not the other way around.
 
I don't understand why David Carr and the O-linemen get all the blame for all the sacks. I think we should blame Freeney for some of that stuff!!!
 
threetoedpete said:
It is a very bad mistake TK to interject parameters into future seasons based on circumstacnes that you have no way of knowing will repeat themseves...
Click to expand...
I see... But it's ok for you to interject that Vince will get speed at the reciever position??
threetoedpete said:
Like the Colts coming in here at the end of a season with a banged up D and we dink and dunk for four quarters with out a major mistake. We weren't the only ones who upset the colts down the strech. So how big of deal was it really ? The gap isn't closing, the Colts are aging and the cap numbers are getting to them. My book says we're way far behind them still.
Click to expand...
We weren't the only ones to upset them??
Colts are aging??
cap numbers getting to them??

Sounds like you agree with me, that they aren't as dominating as they once were.
threetoedpete said:
They can protect ther QB, we however can not.
Click to expand...
We don't even know who our QB will be.... how do you know we can't protect him??
threetoedpete said:
Titans get some speed to go with Vincent...we ain't catching them this season with our DBs.
Click to expand...
this is the part I was talking about with you interjecting about things you have no clue... who will be starting in our secondary?? & who is this "speed" the Titans will acquire.
threetoedpete said:
It's very difficult to sweep anyone in back to back seasons. So how are you going to repeat 3-3 as you say. As always, I believe you absolutly dead wrong in your evaluation. We'll see.
Click to expand...
Did I say anything about sweeping the Jags?? did I even say we'll go 3-3 in our division?? there you go interjecting again
threetoedpete said:
So tell me again TK how much back up qbs make in the league again ?
Click to expand...

$2mill on the high end, why, you looking for a job??
 
HJam72 said:
I don't understand why David Carr and the O-linemen get all the blame for all the sacks. I think we should blame Freeney for some of that stuff!!!
Click to expand...

But Freeney didn't get any sacks on David this year. Not one. Not even a hit, or a hurry.
 
David's Busted Carr said:
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:
Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...
Click to expand...

Yes, there is some talent there, but there are alot of question marks and if's there too! I think it's going to take more than just drafting a LT in this draft. We need depth at every position on the line, and we need to bring in young talent to start developing behind some of the older linemen. I'm not saying we need to fix everything in this years draft, but finding a LT and/or a Center sure would help.

I think Kubes and Smith realize they need some stability and depth on the O-line to get it to work like a "well oiled machine" like they have in Denver. And, I think the selection last year of Flanagan and Salaam in FA and Spencer and Winston in the draft was just the beginning of what they plan on doing. They knew they would have to get FA's like Salaam and Flanagan as a "stop-gap" until they are able to get the O-linemen they need through the draft that will solidify the line for years to come.

I still think they have a way to go before we have a line like Denver or Indy. It just takes time and some good drafts. I can't wait to see who they get this year to continue filling in the pieces of the O-line puzzle! JMHO!
 
David's Busted Carr said:
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...
Click to expand...


Winston was not impressive
Weary was average at best
Flannigan has not been healthy for 3 years now
McKinney sucks
Pitts cannot pick up a simple stunt
Salaam was horrible
Spencer is a ???


Trading down to get Brown would be a nice selection. It would be nice to get Kalil the C from USC or one of the guards in the draft (Sears or the BIG guy from UT).
 
i would like to see us trade carr for a 3rd
rd1 dl
rd2 cb
carr trade up rd2 staley or ugoh
rd3 beck or kolb
rd4 bpa
 
David's Busted Carr said:
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...
Click to expand...

hahaha...thanks for the good laugh...YES..the Oline sucks and so does Carr...Hey, but atleast they suck in different ways!
That seems to be the problem...we need a new QB, Joe Thomas, and an RB...ANYBODY KNOW HOW TO GET THOSE THINGS?
 
While time will help this team - they are all learning the ZBS, Kubes will draft one or two more linemen this year to train up on the system. I hope for a tackle and a center. It's not a question of missing pieces so much as building towards the system. For that reason, Flanagan, Salaam, and McKinney's days are numbered. It may be one season, it may be two, but once Kubes has his new line, they will be gone.
 
HJam72 said:
I don't understand why David Carr and the O-linemen get all the blame for all the sacks. I think we should blame Freeney for some of that stuff!!!
Click to expand...

Yes and I can't understand how people can dismiss it out of hand when the two common inter twined factors ARE the offensive line and the QB.
shall we post the list of busts one more time just for you Ham...Riley, Wand, Tucker, Wade, and Bosselli. One for each year. None currently starting anywhere for anyone. I mean you can tell me the emperor has no clothes on only for so long before I get the fact that there were no clothes for the emperior to put on in the first place. Hasn't been for five years. Yeah the guys naked . But he got that way for a reason. I get it. And you will too Ham in '07 if we do what they say there going to do. DC by all indications will now be absent and out of the equation. The only question that will remain is who you guys are going to point at and scream about then ? Inquiring minds wish to know.
 
David's Busted Carr said:
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be?
Click to expand...
I think it's just you. :)

For the vast majority of last year we couldn't run or pass. The running atttack in the last couple of games were the aberration, not the normal. The o-line should shoulder it's share of blame for that. The Texans need major upgrades on the line and have needed them for quite some time.

Familiarity with the names on the line may be comforting, but it won't improve their performance.
 
Runner said:
I think it's just you. :)

For the vast majority of last year we couldn't run or pass. The running atttack in the last couple of games were the aberration, not the normal. The o-line should shoulder it's share of blame for that. The Texans need major upgrades on the line and have needed them for quite some time.
Click to expand...

I disagree with the statement that we couldn't run for the vast majority of last year. At least in the last half of the season, our running game was OK. Not great, but serviceable. Sure, we got skunked in the Jets game but that was the only really bad running game we had in the last part of the season. I think that's the only game we got less than 100 yards in the running game in the last half of the season.

The league average was about 35-36 sacks. We gave up 43. If you subtract the plays where Carr sacked himself, our line (and running backs) probably gave up an average number of sacks.

Overall, I think our line is only slightly below average. It's not a great line. I'd love to see us add some players and make it a strength of the team. But I think a lot of people use the line's play as an excuse for other problems. It HAS been bad in our history but it wasn't the problem last year.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I think that's the only game we got less than 100 yards in the running game in the last half of the season.

The league average was about 35-36 sacks. We gave up 43. If you subtract the plays where Carr sacked himself, our line (and running backs) probably gave up an average number of sacks.

But I think a lot of people use the line's play as an excuse for other problems.
Click to expand...

Looking at isolated numbers doesn't give a true picture of how the team played.

100 yards rushing isn't a very good success criterion for a run based offense.

43 sacks is worse than it appears too. How many sacks would they have given up if they had run some semblance of an NFL passing game? The league average would have been well below 35 sacks if everyone threw three yards passes and rarely took deep drops.

I'm not using the line play as an excuse for anything. I think the line and the QB played poorly last year. I don't limit the team to having one bad area - I think the last two wins have erased the memory of how truly inept the Texans were for large stretches of playing time.
 
Runner said:
Looking at isolated numbers doesn't give a true picture of how the team played.

100 yards rushing isn't a very good success criterion for a run based offense.

43 sacks is worse than it appears too. How many sacks would they have given up if they had run some semblance of an NFL passing game? The league average would have been well below 35 sacks if everyone threw three yards passes and rarely took deep drops.

I'm not using the line play as an excuse for anything. I think the line and the QB played poorly last year. I don't limit the team to having one bad area - I think the last two wins have erased the memory how truly inept the Texans were for large stretches of playing time.
Click to expand...

Stop making so much sense.

The left tackle and center positions currently are a joke. McKinney ends up looking pretty good in comparison to Flanagan. I never really noticed the "big nasty" abilities of Spencer before his injuries--of him being terrific. Post injury, I can't imagine that it is any better. The best thing to say about Salaam's play is that he is a good quote and lockeroom guy.

This is not to say I am totally comfortable with the rest of the line and its 'depth' but at least it isn't ridiculous.

And, to add further concern to this, I am not sure that the line coaching is able to make chicken salad outta chicken uh beaks. The Denver style offensive blocking relies a lot on misdirection and cut blocks to keep the defenses off balance. That is why they can get away with lighter linemen. What appeared to be coached last year doesn't appear to be consistent with what Denver does, and it is an open question whether a Denver style offense can work with a muddled philosophy in the way the line is coached. It's not like the Texans have Alex Gibbs working with their project linemen.
 
Texans_Chick said:
Stop making so much sense.

The left tackle and center positions currently are a joke. McKinney ends up looking pretty good in comparison to Flanagan. I never really noticed the "big nasty" abilities of Spencer before his injuries--of him being terrific. Post injury, I can't imagine that it is any better. The best thing to say about Salaam's play is that he is a good quote and lockeroom guy.

This is not to say I am totally comfortable with the rest of the line and its 'depth' but at least it isn't ridiculous.

And, to add further concern to this, I am not sure that the line coaching is able to make chicken salad outta chicken uh beaks. The Denver style offensive blocking relies a lot on misdirection and cut blocks to keep the defenses off balance. That is why they can get away with lighter linemen. What appeared to be coached last year doesn't appear to be consistent with what Denver does, and it is an open question whether a Denver style offense can work with a muddled philosophy in the way the line is coached. It's not like the Texans have Alex Gibbs working with their project linemen.
Click to expand...

That is the part that irritates me the most, because he is free to coach or consult but I have heard no mention of even attempting to bring him in as a consultant or a full-time coach. People don't realize how much of Denver's success was due to the outstanding job that Alex Gibbs did while he was there. It wasn't just how well that his O-Line played but also how he was able to do it with late round picks which allowed the Broncos to use high round picks on other areas of need. All of this adds up to a better Broncos team.
 
BTW, Denver Oline guru, Alex Gibbs is still available as a consultant:

link

There has to be a team smart enough to make a call to Alex Gibbs and ask him to be a consultant, doesn't there? There isn't a better teacher for offensive linemen, and he is said to be interested in returning to the league after leaving the Falcons.
Click to expand...

I know we already have Benton and Sherman, but geez, there ain't no salary cap on coaches and consultants, and it would be nice to have some more hope for this offensive line, even if it were just some proven coaching for the line.

(Yes, I am aware of Sherman's background. He doesn't have a proven track record with line coaching for a Denver style offense).

TC
(okay, that is my minor arm chair GMing for the day).
 
Texans_Chick said:
Stop making so much sense.

The left tackle and center positions currently are a joke. McKinney ends up looking pretty good in comparison to Flanagan. I never really noticed the "big nasty" abilities of Spencer before his injuries--of him being terrific. Post injury, I can't imagine that it is any better. The best thing to say about Salaam's play is that he is a good quote and lockeroom guy.
Click to expand...

Sense?? sense is to not let all the preseason pessimism about Ephraim Salaam cloud your judgment about the way he played. Sure, he isn't an all pro, but he's far from being a joke.

The same guy we touted as an upgrade, when it comes to talent evaluation, not only picked Ephraim up for last year, but decided he was good enough to play for a second year. he is one of the few players on this team who has earned a position on this team.

Zero sacks from Ware, & Freeney(x2), and only one to Jason Taylor... three of this leagues best pass rushers... I think the guy is at least avg, if not better. & only blind prejudice for a big money first round LT could prevent anyone from noticing that.

McKinney at Center... I think you're more right than not, that he looked good compared to Flanagan.

We've got a ways to go, no doubt. But we're good enough to have one more than 6 games, against the teams we played in '06.
 
thunderkyss said:
Zero sacks from Ware, & Freeney(x2), and only one to Jason Taylor... three of this leagues best pass rushers... I think the guy is at least avg, if not better. & only blind prejudice for a big money first round LT could prevent anyone from noticing that.
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Again, watching Salaam get pushed back into the QB's face on three step drops indicates that low sack number is unrealistic. If he had protected 5 and 7 step drops at a normal frequency he would have given up many more sacks.

Thanks for pointing out my blind prejudice though.
 
Runner said:
Looking at isolated numbers doesn't give a true picture of how the team played.

100 yards rushing isn't a very good success criterion for a run based offense.

43 sacks is worse than it appears too. How many sacks would they have given up if they had run some semblance of an NFL passing game? The league average would have been well below 35 sacks if everyone threw three yards passes and rarely took deep drops.

I'm not using the line play as an excuse for anything. I think the line and the QB played poorly last year. I don't limit the team to having one bad area - I think the last two wins have erased the memory of how truly inept the Texans were for large stretches of playing time.
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Agreed. Thank you. I think the DC hate just shakes them up. We could get into the chicken or the egg first argument. But what is the point of that ?
The fact remains, and the point of this tread, with out DC in the equation, it's going to be easier to assess our o-line tallent. Less Chales Spencer or at 90 % or less, I am not optomistic. Especaily if they pull franchise RBs , dominate FSs off the board early with the eight pick this draft. Wanna be teased by the numbers and the stats be my guest. The facts are Kubes pulled in the horns of this offense the moment Spencer went down. The play book got radically paired down. Wanna say it's DC, and DC only, fine. We're going to see in spades in '07 aren't we ?
 
threetoedpete said:
Agreed. Thank you. I think the DC hate just shakes them up. We could get into the chicken or the egg first argument. But what is the point of that ?
The fact remains, and the point of this tread, with out DC in the equation, it's going to be easier to assess our o-line tallent. Less Chales Spencer or at 90 % or less, I am not optomistic. Especaily if they pull franchise RBs , dominate FSs off the board early with the eight pick this draft. Wanna be teased by the numbers and the stats be my guest. The facts are Kubes pulled in the horns of this offense the moment Spencer went down. The play book got radically paired down. Wanna say it's DC, and DC only, fine. We're going to see in spades in '07 aren't we ?
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Spot on in the thread bro. Would give you rep but gotta spread it around.
 
thunderkyss said:
Sense?? sense is to not let all the preseason pessimism about Ephraim Salaam cloud your judgment about the way he played. Sure, he isn't an all pro, but he's far from being a joke.

The same guy we touted as an upgrade, when it comes to talent evaluation, not only picked Ephraim up for last year, but decided he was good enough to play for a second year. he is one of the few players on this team who has earned a position on this team.

Zero sacks from Ware, & Freeney(x2), and only one to Jason Taylor... three of this leagues best pass rushers... I think the guy is at least avg, if not better. & only blind prejudice for a big money first round LT could prevent anyone from noticing that.

McKinney at Center... I think you're more right than not, that he looked good compared to Flanagan.

We've got a ways to go, no doubt. But we're good enough to have one more than 6 games, against the teams we played in '06.
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I give Salaam credit that he played despite being hurt. It is a wonder that he played all the games he did. That being said, he is not the guy you want to pencil in as your starter. Spot swing tackle, locker room guy, I'm okay with.

Statistics don't show a lot of things in football (like how many times the Texans had to dump the ball, or negative rushing games etc), but the stats for the Texans left tackle position are really really sad:

link

The reason why sacks were down is the same reason why the Texans YPC is so scary low. They had to dump the ball, teams didn't respect them deep because they didn't have enough time to go deep nor could they consistently run the ball.
 
I've pretty much said it all along....

Our O-line isn't that bad...
 
Texans_Chick said:
I give Salaam credit that he played despite being hurt. It is a wonder that he played all the games he did. That being said, he is not the guy you want to pencil in as your starter. Spot swing tackle, locker room guy, I'm okay with.

Statistics don't show a lot of things in football (like how many times the Texans had to dump the ball, or negative rushing games etc), but the stats for the Texans left tackle position are really really sad:

link

The reason why sacks were down is the same reason why the Texans YPC is so scary low. They had to dump the ball, teams didn't respect them deep because they didn't have enough time to go deep nor could they consistently run the ball.
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From what I was seeing, we were dumping the ball when we didn't have to dump the ball. We were dumping the ball even when we had time. And that was why our YPA was so low. He's taken so many hits that he expects to take the hits now and so sometimes he pulls the trigger on the dump too quickly.

On the NFL channel during the Combine stuff (iirc), they mentioned a knock on one of the QB's was that he considered someone open only when they were VERY open. And I think that's one of Carr's problems now. It's like for the most part, he's not trusting himself to be able to make the throw into the small window so he dumps it off instead. Now, you can turn that around and say our guys weren't getting separation and it might be some combination of both those things.

But, I think you take those two things and combine them, and that's Carr's problem on the 3 step drops. He takes his steps and when his back foot hits, he's not sure what he read, he's just not sure if the guy is open, he's not sure if he can make that tight throw so he becomes indecisive. He pumps and pulls it back down and then starts panicking because he's sure he's about to get hit... and he usually is. Both because the line, which is below average, isn't going to hold much longer than that and because the protection wasn't designed to hold much longer than that.

So, it's like a feedback loop. The line isn't great so some guys are going to get through and hit the QB, the QB has taken so many hits that those hits get inside his head and take him out of his comfort zone so he starts making mistakes that make the line look even worse.

The bottom line that I think everyone can agree on is that we need to improve our line. The disagreement comes over whether we think that's going to improve the play of our RBs and QB or whether we need new RBs and/or QB's to take advantage of it.
 
threetoedpete said:
It is a very bad mistake TK to interject parameters into future seasons based on circumstacnes that you have no way of knowing will repeat themseves...Like the Colts coming in here at the end of a season with a banged up D and we dink and dunk for four quarters with out a major mistake. We weren't the only ones who upset the colts down the strech. So how big of deal was it really ? The gap isn't closing, the Colts are aging and the cap numbers are getting to them. My book says we're way far behind them still. They can protect ther QB, we however can not. Titans get some speed to go with Vincent...we ain't catching them this season with our DBs.
It's very difficult to sweep anyone in back to back seasons. So how are you going to repeat 3-3 as you say. As always, I believe you absolutly dead wrong in your evaluation. We'll see.

So tell me again TK how much back up qbs make in the league again ?
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I'm not going to say I disagree with the gist of your statement, but how is "the Colts are aging and the cap numbers are getting to them" different from "the gap is closing"? Sounds like two descriptions of the same thing to me...
 
the main thing too keep in mind is that this o-line has three guys who still have potential maybe 4

with pitts he still has room to grow as a guard in this league and i can see him being a pro bowl guy in the near future if this team starts to win

weary is in the same situation as pitts...i think with a few seasons starting under his belt he might turn into a pro bowl guard

with winston the sky is the limit...remember this guy before his knee injury was the top tackle prospect in the college ranks...labeled as a short arm guy he has not been given the chance to play LT but i still think he has the feet for it...at the very least he could be a franchise RT for us for several years to come

spencer is possibly the fourth guy who has a ton of potential...i love his aggressive behavior on the field...we just need his knee to heal

so that leaves just two positions...C and LT...if we can ever find a guy to anchor this o-line at the center position i think you'll see this line's production increase dramatically...despite the belief that LT is the most important position on the o-line i believe it's the center...no other position along the o-line makes more calls...has more contact with the QB...and no other position has less ground to give before backing into the QB...any team going far into the playoffs has to have a solid center...we need a solid, franchise-type center
 
keyfro said:
so that leaves just two positions...C and LT...if we can ever find a guy to anchor this o-line at the center position i think you'll see this line's production increase dramatically...despite the belief that LT is the most important position on the o-line i believe it's the center...no other position along the o-line makes more calls...has more contact with the QB...and no other position has less ground to give before backing into the QB...any team going far into the playoffs has to have a solid center...we need a solid, franchise-type center
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You do realize that you just said something akin to my car would be good if it had an engine and tires.

Sigh, too bad those left tackle and center thingies don't grow on trees.
 
David's Busted Carr said:
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...
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Not bad. But we have to get some depth in here. YOUNG depth we can work with for years to come.
 
Keyfro I like the way you think! I agree with you about Winston. I too believe this will be the breakout season. Injuries like his take two years to heal no matter how good you feel. Last October was two years for Eric and from that time to the end of the season he played great football at RT.
If Spencer can't make it back and I hope he does, then I wouldn't be surprised if they move him to LT which is what he played in college. Either way I think he will have a large impact on the o-line this year.
 
Having played O-line for a good 10 yrs of my life, one of the most important things about pass blocking is knowing the QB's depth...

That's why Kubes worked so much with David on his footwork and timing...His biggest issue is his pocket presence...period...

As an Offensive lineman when your QB drops back, you can't see him..That's why it's important for him to drop to the same depth at the same rate of speed everytime. Speeding up your drop like David does is a sure way to throw timing out of whack. As a lineman all you can see is the defender, but you have to feel the QB and thats why you practice...To get your timing in sync.......When you have a QB that is jittery in the pocket in game situations and moves when he doesn't need to, and doesn't take consistent drops it only helps the defender who can actually see the QB vs. the lineman who has to try and react to a defender who knows where he is going. Maybe in years past David was hurt by poor play on the line, but this year it was on him...My guess is that David is Joe Cool in practice when the pressure is off, and when the game comes his adrenaline starts pumping and everything speeds up for him throwing everyone on offense timing out of whack...

He was not consistent in the pocket and that causes more chaos up front that you could ever imagine...He couldn't feel the rush...his timing was off, and when he felt like someone was close he got flustered and never turned a negative situation into a good one...Even mediocre QB's turn negatives into positives occasionally, that's why I'm of the opinion that David is terrible...He's not even mediocre in my book...Even with all the physical talents and all that "potential" he's yet to make a play that makes me believe we can win if it ever came down to him doing something special.....Instead we should depend on our line full of pro-bowlers, Stud RB, and two beastly recievers....And oh yeah...A defense that only allows 100 total yards a game...

No playmaking ability+poor pocket presence= a QB that looks like his line is failing him.




No the line isn't great, but we are not in need of an overhaul.
 
Texans_Chick said:
You do realize that you just said something akin to my car would be good if it had an engine and tires.

Sigh, too bad those left tackle and center thingies don't grow on trees.
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Exactly TC...you got it. Rep your way...What is mind boggeling to me...we're going to do it again this off season by the looks of things going on. Patch it, hope for the best and move on with great expectations. I'm thinking with DC out of the equation, one way or another, we're going to get to test some of these therories we've been subjected too for three years. If we're wrong Spencer is back at left tackle and the FO hasn't been fertilizing the mushrooms, Ahmen gets fresh legs. If we're correct...they got to finally get it fixed.

Yeah the 250 sacks was a depth thingy. I got it.

Pat on the back will have to do TC. Nice post though.
 
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