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why didn't we use the shotgun?

Wolf

Wolf

100% Texan
http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showexcerpt.cfm?excerpt_id=4058

A drawback of any shotgun offense is the predictability of the back set. Much of the base running game takes the back from one side of the quarterback to the other, allowing the defense to key the back for play direction. In the offensive staff room every week, we make a conscious decision to remove keys from the back. To do this, we use backfield motion, have the back cross the quarterback’s face to pass protect, or use the tailback as an overload to the side on which he lines up, using a speed option or free-releasing him in the passing game.

Another weakness is having only one edge secured. By having three wide receivers in the game, we forfeit the ability to protect the point of attack on both sides of the formation. We attempt to turn this weakness into a strength by using a number of techniques in both the running and passing games.
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In the passing game, the first problem is the same as in the running game-the defense can always outnumber the protection. Our base protection is a six-man protection in which the tight end releases, so we can protect only three to a side. We protect against pressure by keeping both the tight end and running back in to block, using a seven-man protection that can protect both edges if the calls are made correctly. However, we do prefer to use the six-man protection, so we must have answers for both man and zone pressure. Typically, we see four to a side zone pressure, usually away from the tight end. The most common man pressure we see is four across, often with some defensive lineman bailing out inside. We’ll plan each week how to handle the various pressures, but our typical response is to build hots for zone pressure and check versus man pressure.
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I seriously doubt an NFL team would have to worry about a center (NFL caliber) being able to snap a ball to a QB in the shotgun formation.. I find that to be too hard to believe..


I wish I could have found another site and about the workings of the shotgun, but after yahooing a few links this the best I could find.
 
I'll break it down

1) Too complicated for Carr and

2) It confused Carr

Marino, Manning and many others use it without a hitch.
 
I was trying to figure out what Fresno states offensive philosophy was back then and how I almost feel the Texan staff ruined David..

#

2001 (11-3, 6-2 WAC)
# Defeated three BCS nationally-ranked schools, Colorado, Oregon State and Wisconsin to start the season. The wins over Colorado and Wisconsin both came on the road.
# Defeated Oregon State, the No. 1 ranked team by Sports Illustrated and the highest-ranked team ever to play in Fresno, by a resounding score of 44-24.
# Raced to a No. 8 ranking in the nation.
# David Carr (offensive) and Alan Harper (defense) were named WAC Players of the Year.
# David Carr won the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm award as the nation's top senior quarterback and was selected the nation's offensive player of the year by the College Football News.
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http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/hill_pat00.html

I am still trying to find the offensive philosophy FSU employed back then.
 
This is from the KHOU website... Very confusing because Kubiak states that Flanagan did it well, yet they rarely ran it when he was playing. It sounds like he's trying to divert attention away from Carr again. I remember reading something last year about how he can't take his eyes off of the defense without everything spinning out of control in his mind.

http://www.khou.com/sports/texans/stories/khou061214_cc_mcnairbackskubiak.ce2ece2.html

OUT OF THE SHOTGUN:@ Kubiak was evasive early in the week about why he avoids putting Carr in the shotgun formation. On Thursday, he said it depends on how quickly center Drew Hodgdon, a second-year pro who began the season as the backup, masters the longer snaps.

Hodgdon has started two games since veteran Mike Flanagan was placed on injured reserve with a rib injury.

"Flanagan did it well," Kubiak said. "If you don't have confidence in it, you just come up under center and do the same thing. Really, it all depends on how Drew handles it."

Kubiak said Monday he'd like to use the formation more to protect Carr better. Carr has been sacked 36 times this season.

"When your quarterback is getting pressured, you'd love to move him back there, you'd love to give him more time," Kubiak said. "We've got some things we've got to work out and we have been working on them and if we can get them fixed, you may see us do it some more."
 
Wolf said:
I was trying to figure out what Fresno states offensive philosophy was back then and how I almost feel the Texan staff ruined David..


http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/hill_pat00.html

I am still trying to find the offensive philosophy FSU employed back then.
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College ain't the pros and there have been many a great college QB fail miserably in the NFL. The coaching staff certainly didn't help Dave, but they can't take all of the blame.
 
the wonger need food said:
College ain't the pros and there have been many a great college QB fail miserably in the NFL. The coaching staff certainly didn't help Dave, but they can't take all of the blame.
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that is very true, but watching David over the years,he's regressed, his long ball is a shotput now ... among other things
 
I remember him playing out of the shotgun for a bit in the Browns game. We were also in it on a 3rd and short and I'm saying to myself "Shotgun on 3rd and short? That's gotta be a QB draw. There's no way in hell Kubiak is actually going to let him throw it on 3rd and short." Kubiak really doesn't have much faith in Carr.
 
SHOTGUN?? SHOTGUN?? R u guys serious. He can't hit anything with a football. What makes you think he can hit anything with a shotgun...lol...j/k
 
HoustonFrog said:
I'll break it down

1) Too complicated for Carr and

2) It confused Carr

Marino, Manning and many others use it without a hitch.
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This is what makes this site unbearable at times... Just a ridiculous comment. There is nothing to complicate matters and nothing to confuse in the shotgun. MANY West Coasts teams simply do not like the shotgun because they feel it disrupts their timing passing game. So save your Carr shots for other parts of the board. This is just gratuitous on your part. I like jokes just as much as the next guy...but c'mon frog!
 
coachdent said:
This is what makes this site unbearable at times... Just a ridiculous comment. There is nothing to complicate matters and nothing to confuse in the shotgun. MANY West Coasts teams simply do not like the shotgun because they feel it disrupts their timing passing game. So save your Carr shots for other parts of the board. This is just gratuitous on your part. I like jokes just as much as the next guy...but c'mon frog!
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In all fairness, Kubiak, himself, has stated that we don't run shotgun due to personell issues. It has nothing to do with scheme.
 
Ha something just crossed my mind. We should have had a set with Pittman long snapping it back to Carr 15 yards back. That should have given DC plenty of time.
 
NEROtheZERO said:
In all fairness, Kubiak, himself, has stated that we don't run shotgun due to personell issues. It has nothing to do with scheme.
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I dunno, but I think that was in reference to Drew Hogdon when he was playing center for a few games, as apparently Drew was inexperienced
at snapping the ball deep to the QB when in the shotgun.
 
NEROtheZERO said:
In all fairness, Kubiak, himself, has stated that we don't run shotgun due to personell issues. It has nothing to do with scheme.
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I was responding to the nasty comments directed at Carr. It doesn't have to do with intelligence, being complicated or confusing. That is nonsense.

Donovan McNabb does not go into the gun. West Coast.
For years, Favre did not go into the gun. West Coast.
Joe Montana did not use the shotgun. West Coast.

The list is is larger, but there is no way anyone is going to question those quarterbacks for not being comfortable in the gun or question their intelligence. That is ridiculous.

Now having said that...I do think we SHOULD use the shotgun! Carr should be made to adapt. I don't think it is much of an adaptation anyway because he played out of the gun in college and only threw for almost 5,000 yards and 46 touchdowns in his senior season.

Carr does have legs and he can use them. I was very excited in one game when we put him in the gun and emptied the backfield and Carr went on a QB run for 12 yards. He is a spread offense guy and this is the system he would most flourish in. I will tell you this...if you put David Carr in the Tennessee Titan offense, he will put up MUCH better numbers than he did this year in Houston. I will also tell you this... if you put Vince Young in the Houston system this year, he would NOT have put up the same numbers he did in Tennessee. This is not a comparision of the two.

This is saying that the spread offense highlights quarterbacks with legs. It simplifies reads. The West Coast is far more complex, far wordier and less explosive than spread offenses.

Note to VY lovers...read the above comments carefully! I am NOT saying Carr is better than Young. Relax. Not so. Trying to explain why not much has been done with our offense to highlight Carr's attributes instead of just ripping him for his inadequacies. That's not how you coordinate. That's not how you deal with your quarterbacks.
 
coachdent said:
I was responding to the nasty comments directed at Carr. It doesn't have to do with intelligence, being complicated or confusing. That is nonsense.

<snippage>

The list is is larger, but there is no way anyone is going to question those quarterbacks for not being comfortable in the gun or question their intelligence. That is ridiculous.
<snippage>
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I agree.

IIRC, we put Carr in the gun 3 times this season. All three times were QB running plays and all three times, we got a first down.

I remember reading that Capers et. al. tried putting Carr in the shotgun but he didn't feel comfy with it. I don't really understand that at all. I have a distinct feeling that I'm not getting the full story. Something's going on and... nothing makes sense. The shotgun should simplify a lot of things. The QB should have a better view and he should have that split second more time.

Could there be an issue with Carr's hands? Does he have small hands? Is that why he fumbles so much? Does he have a problem catching the ball?

It's just weird.
 
I will tell you this...if I have a resume where I've worked with Elway, Young and the cast of others he has doen well by and I have the opinion of Carr that he is not up to their level, then I have no problem going up to him on a Tuesday practice and looking him in the eye and saying, "Hey David, listen pal, get you ***** back in the gun today. You do and you'll throw for 310 this weekend. You cool?"

David would say, "ok".

And we move on.
 
coachdent said:
This is what makes this site unbearable at times... Just a ridiculous comment. There is nothing to complicate matters and nothing to confuse in the shotgun. MANY West Coasts teams simply do not like the shotgun because they feel it disrupts their timing passing game. So save your Carr shots for other parts of the board. This is just gratuitous on your part. I like jokes just as much as the next guy...but c'mon frog!
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1) It was tongue and cheek:)

2) I understand that many west coast teams don't use it but in general I think much of the offense is dumbed down for Carr. Sorry but I have never found him to be the sharpest tool in the shed. There are many successful football players who aren't but he doesn't get basic concepts after 5 years...a) when outside the pocket you are allowed to throw it away before cowering b) eye raping your receiver does not make it easier to get him the ball and c) throwing into a group of defenders as hard as possible does not prevent interceptions. It peeved people off when I said this last year but the guy had school troubles before Fresno that were chalked up to some outside forces but in general I think he just can be a block head. There are reasons why in the Titans game with alot of time left in the 4th we ran a draw on 3rd and long and took the FG instead of going for the kill. The coaches don't trust him with much. Its like Rain Man around a bath tub.

3) He fumbles normal snaps...shooting one back to him is downright scary
 
the wonger need food said:
This is from the KHOU website... Very confusing because Kubiak states that Flanagan did it well, yet they rarely ran it when he was playing. It sounds like he's trying to divert attention away from Carr again. I remember reading something last year about how he can't take his eyes off of the defense without everything spinning out of control in his mind.

http://www.khou.com/sports/texans/stories/khou061214_cc_mcnairbackskubiak.ce2ece2.html

OUT OF THE SHOTGUN:@ Kubiak was evasive early in the week about why he avoids putting Carr in the shotgun formation. On Thursday, he said it depends on how quickly center Drew Hodgdon, a second-year pro who began the season as the backup, masters the longer snaps.

Hodgdon has started two games since veteran Mike Flanagan was placed on injured reserve with a rib injury.

"Flanagan did it well," Kubiak said. "If you don't have confidence in it, you just come up under center and do the same thing. Really, it all depends on how Drew handles it."

Kubiak said Monday he'd like to use the formation more to protect Carr better. Carr has been sacked 36 times this season.

"When your quarterback is getting pressured, you'd love to move him back there, you'd love to give him more time," Kubiak said. "We've got some things we've got to work out and we have been working on them and if we can get them fixed, you may see us do it some more."
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what he said! ^^ :)

good find bro!
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
I read or heard that the coaches are trying to slow Carr down . When he's in the shotgun he goes even faster .
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That's the reason Kubiak gave for the lack of shotgun when asked about it a few weeks ago on his radio show.

He said Carr tends to 'speed up' more in the shotgun than when under center (impatience through his reads). Kubiak commented specifically that he was able to 'slow down his feet' (and along with that his eyes presumably) by keeping him under center.

I guess when you have a QB that tends to panic, you'd rather have him spend a couple of seconds dropping back as opposed to having a nervous nellie standing there waiting for routes to develop.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I agree.

IIRC, we put Carr in the gun 3 times this season. All three times were QB running plays and all three times, we got a first down.

I remember reading that Capers et. al. tried putting Carr in the shotgun but he didn't feel comfy with it. I don't really understand that at all. I have a distinct feeling that I'm not getting the full story. Something's going on and... nothing makes sense. The shotgun should simplify a lot of things. The QB should have a better view and he should have that split second more time.

Could there be an issue with Carr's hands? Does he have small hands? Is that why he fumbles so much? Does he have a problem catching the ball?

It's just weird.
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It is very weird. I want Kubes and the Texans to succeed. But I don't think he has handled the Carr situation well. It was a major mistake to reup Carr and essentially say that you could work with him. At the very least, this was a major mistake in judging his talent. I think if you make the kind of statement Kubes made at the start of the season about Carr, then he is certainly someone that you should be able to work with.

His feet have always been a problem, but they have improved. He has a tendency to precock his back knee prematurely. This is something that generally happens naturally for quarterbacks when they throw with a bent back knee. This helps with your velocity. But Carr seems to sit back on it, kinda like a shotputter rears back to throw the shot. This is a problem because it locks his hips to one specific target. This is why he seemingly "locks" on one receiver. The problem is, to get off of that route and move to the next, he must take an extra two steps to reposition his hips to the target or simply throw off balance.

But here is a distubring thing that I have noticed in our pass game. Moreso than any other team I have watched in the NFL, we run twins LEFT with Moulds and AJ split out to the left. Carr's progressions begin with the tight end and the fullback off to the right in MANY cases. Most offenses (and the West Coast is no different) deal with a triangle concept of three reads. There is no triangle in these sets. If there is, that third part of the triangle comes from the backside. These are difficult reads for a quarterback...even the best ones. That needs to change.
 
aj. said:
That's the reason Kubiak gave for the lack of shotgun when asked about it a few weeks ago on his radio show.

He said Carr tends to 'speed up' more in the shotgun than when under center (impatience through his reads). Kubiak commented specifically that he was able to 'slow down his feet' (and along with that his eyes presumably) by keeping him under center.

I guess when you have a QB that tends to panic, you'd rather have him spend a couple of seconds dropping back as opposed to having a nervous nellie standing there waiting for routes to develop.
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THis makes perfect sense...... all year Kubiak's been working with David's footwork, which is basically a timing issue. It is how he stays in sync with the recievers..... in the gun........ that goes out the window, he has no reference of time.

CoachDent... you mentioned WCO teams don't use the shotgun, and pointed to McNabb as an example... that's way off.... in 3rd & Long, the Eagles are always in the shotgun with McNabb. Always.... they use the gun more often with the midget they got back their now, but they did use it frequently with McNabb.

Denver also has young inexperienced Cutler in the Shotgun dang near every other play. & Plummer used it quite a bit with Kubiak... Elway used it with Kubiak. So it's not that Kubiak doesn't like to use it.

I honestly believe if David worked out of the gun more frequently since Day one.... he would not hold any NFL sack records.

What you said about David & the spread..... Tennessee...... I can see that.
 
thunderkyss said:
THis makes perfect sense...... all year Kubiak's been working with David's footwork, which is basically a timing issue. It is how he stays in sync with the recievers..... in the gun........ that goes out the window, he has no reference of time.

CoachDent... you mentioned WCO teams don't use the shotgun, and pointed to McNabb as an example... that's way off.... in 3rd & Long, the Eagles are always in the shotgun with McNabb. Always.... they use the gun more often with the midget they got back their now, but they did use it frequently with McNabb.

Denver also has young inexperienced Cutler in the Shotgun dang near every other play. & Plummer used it quite a bit with Kubiak... Elway used it with Kubiak. So it's not that Kubiak doesn't like to use it.

I honestly believe if David worked out of the gun more frequently since Day one.... he would not hold any NFL sack records.

What you said about David & the spread..... Tennessee...... I can see that.
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The Eagles have only recently gone to the shotgun in the past year and a half or so and one of the reasons was Donovan's mobility problems. He was underneath center for the majority of his career before that. I watched them every week, they are my NFL market team. I am not offbase at all here. The Eagles and the Philly media criticized Reid for not using the shotgun more when he got here.


From: http://stanford.scout.com/2/517984.html
Before we leave the line, one more note. Walt Harris is looking to try out some shotgun snaps from Mattran with Trent Edwards this spring. That is an alarming development on several fronts. First of all, the shotgun earned a negative reputation after its futility under the Buddy Teevens three-year run. Maybe more importantly, Harris is a loudly proclaimed Bill Walsh disciple, and Walsh of course was violently opposed to using the shotgun in his offense. Harris admits that Walsh's aversion to the 'gun has been a big reason he has stayed away from it during his coaching career, but it may be worth a try for this offense this spring.

"I think the quarterback has a chance to see possibly better, and I think most of them like it that way," Harris explains. "There are some things that you can do - that people have done - that make the shotgun more inviting. There is also a learning curve for some guys who have been in the shotgun their entire career versus those that have been under center, and that might hurt them past college right now."

In order for the shotgun to make sense, however, there has to be a very consistent snap from the center. Harris tried the shotgun for half a season one year before he junked it. The spray of snaps was an adventure neither the quarterback nor the coach could stomach.

"Part of the problem was that every snap was a new experience," Harris recounts. "That doesn't help the quarterback at all, if it's a bad ball drill on every snap. You'd like it to be that when the ball is coming, you don't have to stare the ball in. You'd like to be looking with one eye on the ball and one eye on the coverage. But if one ball is here, one ball is here and one ball is over here, then you have both eyes on the ball. Then you lose some of the advantage of it."

Even if the snap is consistent, there are disadvantages to the shotgun formation which makes Harris wary, even as he moves into this experiment.

"When you move your hand, you have to follow through all the way until you hit your leg. Then you have to get your hand back up to get your hand on the defensive lineman. He knows that you're not running a high percentage of the time. Particularly in pass situations, he is going to 'handle the run' on the way to the quarterback like they do in the NFL," the coach describes. "It's not all what it's all cracked up to be. You could be making it harder on yourself. It's a further snap than an under-the-center snap to the quarterback. His right hand comes back a lot later, and we're talking about milliseconds. It does make it harder, especially on the center."

Game.
Set.
Match.

As I stated before....WEST COAST OFFENSE coaches do NOT see the benefits of the shotgun. The guru himself said it from the getgo. Here endeth the lesson! :)
 
coachdent said:
Game.
Set.
Match.

As I stated before....WEST COAST OFFENSE coaches do NOT see the benefits of the shotgun. The guru himself said it from the getgo. Here endeth the lesson! :)
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I don't understand how that translates to Kubiak not running the shotgun with our team...

All you did was show examples of why another man didn't like shot-gun...That doesn't prove why Kubiak doesn't run it...

Coaches have different opionions on a lot of different aspects....
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I don't understand how that translates to Kubiak not running the shotgun with our team...

All you did was show examples of why another man didn't like shot-gun...That doesn't prove why Kubiak doesn't run it...

Coaches have different opinions on a lot of different aspects....
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I was responding specifically to the contention that West Coast offenses do not like to employ the shotgun for a variety of reasons. Thunderkyss pointed out that I was flat out wrong about the Eagles using the shotgun all the time and they hadn't. I have also pointed out on this site here and other places that West Coast offenses are not all about using the gun. The article showed that Bill Walsh was vehmently against it, which certainly proved my point in spades.

My point also was that many quarterbacks simply don't like to be in the shotgun. This does not mean anything more than that they are not comfortable. My point is that the offense in and of itself is not geared to the shotgun. The shotgun is an addtion to the offense. Obviously Kubiak is not completely on board with the gun because he does not insist that they use it. Other people are putting it entirely on Carr and using it again as yet another avenue to criticize him. In the article that people cite here in which Kubiak vaguely outlines why the Texans do not use the gun. It is basdically the exact same reasons outline by the Stanford coach.
 
coachdent said:
I was responding specifically to the contention that West Coast offenses do not like to employ the shotgun for a variety of reasons. Thunderkyss pointed out that I was flat out wrong about the Eagles using the shotgun all the time and they hadn't. I have also pointed out on this site here and other places that West Coast offenses are not all about using the gun. The article showed that Bill Walsh was vehmently against it, which certainly proved my point in spades.
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xtru has it right. I didn't challenge Bill Walsh's aversion to the shotgun or WCO coaches in general. I said the Eagles have used the Shotgun quite a bit through McNabb's Career.... & I stand by that. We'll see Garcia in the Shotgun this weekend, even though there is little question about his mobility.

I also said Gary Kubiak has used the shotgun formation quite a bit in his career as well..... but since coming to Houston, he'd rather not?? 206 sacks coming into the season... and he doesn't want to put his QB in the shotgun??
coachdent said:
My point also was that many quarterbacks simply don't like to be in the shotgun. This does not mean anything more than that they are not comfortable. My point is that the offense in and of itself is not geared to the shotgun. The shotgun is an addtion to the offense. Obviously Kubiak is not completely on board with the gun because he does not insist that they use it. Other people are putting it entirely on Carr and using it again as yet another avenue to criticize him. In the article that people cite here in which Kubiak vaguely outlines why the Texans do not use the gun. It is basdically the exact same reasons outline by the Stanford coach.
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True....... but.... we are known as the most sacked team in the history of the NFL after only 5 years..... anything that could possibly help should be employed.

I thought it was kind of odd that Last year's crew decided to go to the one step drop to alleviate our protection issues....... & now I'm hearing Kubiak doesn't like to use the shotgun??

I understand we can't all be conspiracy theorist....... and we need sane logical alternative explanations... & you hold up that end pretty well. But try to think about how many times we ran the gun, and how many times we've thrown out of it...... then ask your self how many centers have we had starting, and how likely is it that none of them can snap the ball for the gun.... then how many times have we seen Sage in the gun?? how many times has he thrown from the gun??

these are all legit questions, and all point to the same problem.
 
coachdent said:
Other people are putting it entirely on Carr and using it again as yet another avenue to criticize him. In the article that people cite here in which Kubiak vaguely outlines why the Texans do not use the gun. It is basdically the exact same reasons outline by the Stanford coach.
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The only reason I can think of that a team wouldn't feel "comfortable" running the shotgun is because a) the QB can't do it or b) the center can't do it

It is definitely harder on the QB because he has to take his eyes off of the defense if the ball isn't snapped perfectly, and I can understand a QB being uncomfortable about having to basically catch a pass and then read a defense and hit an open reciever...By no means is that an easy thing to do, but David being a 5 yr vet it shouldn't be much of an issue.

But it's all a circle...You might ask why isn't David as comfortable as he needs to be? Some will say: because he's nervous about his line's lack of blocking, so therefore he's more panicked than other QB's in the leauge that run the gun....

I don't agree with that, but I understand the argument.
 
thunderkyss said:
I also said Gary Kubiak has used the shotgun formation quite a bit in his career as well..... but since coming to Houston, he'd rather not?? 206 sacks coming into the season... and he doesn't want to put his QB in the shotgun??

True....... but.... we are known as the most sacked team in the history of the NFL after only 5 years..... anything that could possibly help should be employed.

I thought it was kind of odd that Last year's crew decided to go to the one step drop to alleviate our protection issues....... & now I'm hearing Kubiak doesn't like to use the shotgun??

I understand we can't all be conspiracy theorist....... and we need sane logical alternative explanations... & you hold up that end pretty well. But try to think about how many times we ran the gun, and how many times we've thrown out of it...... then ask your self how many centers have we had starting, and how likely is it that none of them can snap the ball for the gun.... then how many times have we seen Sage in the gun?? how many times has he thrown from the gun??

these are all legit questions, and all point to the same problem.
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How many times has Sage thrown out of the gun? I don't know this number.

Mind you... I WANT us to use the gun! I wish Kubiak would insist upon it. I run the spread offense in high school and have run it in college. I teach it and my quarterbacks MUST learn it and be comfortable with it. I had the reverse of this problem because I had a vertically challenged quarterback who could not see the routes across the middle when he was under center. So we put him in the gun. He still can't see some of those routes, and as a result, I've had to come up with more route combonations on the outside. In addition, we move the pocket in the gun which shortens throws and varies his launching point, making it difficult for the defense to tee off.

Whatever or whoever is the problem...Carr. Kubiak. Centers. All of the above. Doesn't matter. They need to get it rectified and throw out of the gun next year. Do that and get the tight ends off the field on third down and long and I'll be a happy guy.
 
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