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Is Houston too hard on QB's ?

axman40

axman40

Hall of Fame
Is Houston too hard on the QB?I have been a fan of Houston's NFL teams since the early70's. I recall Pastorini being called Pass da Weenie! I was a season tickect holder the first 3 years Moon signed in Houston. I had to endure many Sunday's with N-bombs and some guy who thought himself clever by replcing the m in Moon and replacing it with a C. I am sure Moon did not find that funny!
So where does that put Carr and the response he is receiving now?Is Carr the main short coming of this offense? Which came first the chicken or the egg? If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? What say you?
:shades:
 
Every place claims to be worse than the other. Bottom line is that if you don't produce, then the fans are hard on you.

QB just seems to be the most notable, highly visible position. Otherwise, Dunta should be picked on for not stepping up as a leader (Why did DeMeco have such an easy time falling into the leader of the defense? Should he have had to wrestle that away from D-Rob? I think so.) and why don't we continually pick on Faggins and Brown for making the same mistakes. Treat no one any different than anyone else is what I say.
 
If anything, we've been too easy on Carr. In any other city he would have been benched for good last year. And now after 5 years of failure we're talking about giving him 2 more seasons to prove himself?
 
Every fan base that has questionable quarterbacking evokes this kind of drama. Long time football fans know that while you don't need a great QB to be a great team, the position that makes the most impact on a team is the quarterback. A half a decade into a QB's career the best anyone can say is that they believe in Carr's potential. No problem with that, but tell me, why are you paying a premium price for spec? The first contract is based on speculation and the out in the contract was built in for a reason. The average career of an NFL player is nearly 5 years. How many careers does it take to make a decision about your quarterback? NFL teams have to make decisions about how you pay for play quicker and more intuitively than this. After his first 3 years Bob McNair had to go out and pay $300k to Reeves to convince him that he should keep Carr despite all the red flags. Why pay Reeves? Because Casserly already ruined your franchise start with such bad judgment. Fans can also see that when Tony Banks and Sage Rosenfels was in the game we actually had an intermediate passing game despite the fact that they are both NFL journeymen. I think the fans are more frustrated at management than they are at Carr. Carr just takes the brunt of it. Who of us wouldn't have singed an extension to extend our payday to 60 million dollars for largely mediocre play over the first 3 seasons?
 
Vinny said:
Every fan base that has questionable quarterbacking evokes this kind of drama. Long time football fans know that while you don't need a great QB to be a great team, the position that makes the most impact on a team is the quarterback. A half a decade into a QB's career the best anyone can say is that they believe in Carr's potential. No problem with that, but tell me, why are you paying a premium price for spec? The first contract is based on speculation and the out in the contract was built in for a reason. The average career of an NFL player is nearly 5 years. How many careers does it take to make a decision about your quarterback? NFL teams have to make decisions about how you pay for play quicker and more intuitively than this. After his first 3 years Bob McNair had to go out and pay $300k to Reeves to convince him that he should keep Carr despite all the red flags. Why pay Reeves? Because Casserly already ruined your franchise start with such bad judgment. Fans can also see that when Tony Banks and Sage Rosenfels was in the game we actually had an intermediate passing game despite the fact that they are both NFL journeymen. I think the fans are more frustrated at management than they are at Carr. Carr just takes the brunt of it. Who of us wouldn't have singed an extension to extend our payday to 60 million dollars for largely mediocre play over the first 3 seasons?
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And immediate...That's some SERIOUS points to ponder. :hmmm:
 
TexansFan99 said:
I lived in NY and Philly...those "fans" are hard on the QBs. Carr wouldn't have last this long there.
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i know you listen to some philly fans some of them are giving up on mcnabb because of his recent injuries and he's a playmaker i can only wonder if they had a useless david carr as the QB they would probable have a hit out on him.:stirpot:
 
Ya'll are right. Sage Rosenfels would have put AJ, Moulds and Daniels into the Pro Bowl with his passing expertise. Oh, and since QBs control the defense, DeMeco would have beaten out Zach Thomas as well.

:loser
 
I think 5 years is more than enough trial time for a QB on any given team. No one (Carr or the fans) would have any sore feelings about moving in a new direction.

Would Vince have been given 5 years to prove himself... for some reason I don't think so... I like Carr, but he has had plenty of chances here. It would be best for both to part ways. That being said, if he stays - I hope he plays well for the Texans.
 
I can understand the F.O.'s decision to keep Carr.. I mean you have a new Coach coming in with a new staff.. the last thing you want to do is pile on a quarterback controversy to really make things chaotic.

But they shouldnt have given him the extension. Should have signed him to a new contract..one that was a bit more reasonable. On the other hand, if they had done that it would have undercut his confidence. I know people will scoff at that comment, but its true. They are/were trying to build him back up.. and its kinda hard to say "You are the guy, we can make this happen with you if you work hard, we have faith in you!... now.. how about we sign you to a 1 year contract instead of that nasty old extension".
 
Grid said:
I can understand the F.O.'s decision to keep Carr.. I mean you have a new Coach coming in with a new staff.. the last thing you want to do is pile on a quarterback controversy to really make things chaotic.

But they shouldnt have given him the extension. Should have signed him to a new contract..one that was a bit more reasonable. On the other hand, if they had done that it would have undercut his confidence. I know people will scoff at that comment, but its true. They are/were trying to build him back up.. and its kinda hard to say "You are the guy, we can make this happen with you if you work hard, we have faith in you!... now.. how about we sign you to a 1 year contract instead of that nasty old extension".
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We could of let him hit free agency and got david for about 800,000 i was never againts keeping carr but just not to that awfull bonus we could of had him or pennies on the dollars.:tearup:
 
Carr is not the right quarterback for the Texans and we need to find our future quarterback this off season.
 
Napa Auto Parts said:
i know you listen to some philly fans some of them are giving up on mcnabb because of his recent injuries and he's a playmaker i can only wonder if they had a useless david carr as the QB they would probable have a hit out on him.:stirpot:
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We are pretty tolerant here in Houston.....5 years of a mediocre QB and we are wondering if we are being too hard on him...Throw da bum out!
 
Napa Auto Parts said:
We could of let him hit free agency and got david for about 800,000 i was never againts keeping carr but just not to that awfull bonus we could of had him or pennies on the dollars.:tearup:
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We would have had a hard time re-signing Carr if we had let him become a free agent.

Dont let the attitude here in our forums fool you, Carr was still (and really IS still) looked at as a promising young QB. He would have gotten a lot of offers, and it would have been hard to convince him to come back to the place where he broke the sack record.
 
axman40 said:
Is Houston too hard on the QB?I have been a fan of Houston's NFL teams since the early70's. I recall Pastorini being called Pass da Weenie! I was a season tickect holder the first 3 years Moon signed in Houston. I had to endure many Sunday's with N-bombs and some guy who thought himself clever by replcing the m in Moon and replacing it with a C. I am sure Moon did not find that funny!
So where does that put Carr and the response he is receiving now?Is Carr the main short coming of this offense? Which came first the chicken or the egg? If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? What say you?
:shades:
Click to expand...

According to my friends in other cities... Houston fans are fair weathered and ignorant.
 
back to topic....

I'm old enough to remember fans griping about Pastorini's love for the long bomb, and never throwing short stuff. Seems like we have just the opposite situation now.

Anyways, I doubt there's an NFL QB that doesn't know how hard the job will be coming in to it.
 
Silver Oak said:
back to topic....

I'm old enough to remember fans griping about Pastorini's love for the long bomb, and never throwing short stuff. Seems like we have just the opposite situation now.

Anyways, I doubt there's an NFL QB that doesn't know how hard the job will be coming in to it.
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I donno if you are remembering that right. Dan threw 57 passes to running back Fred Willis in 1973 (I remember Fred was productive cause I had a 44 Oilers jersey) :). Dan took heat but I don't remember that as a knock specifically. In the 70's the long ball was in fashion and you could beat up the wr's all over the field so it was certainly a different game...but Pastorini did take a ton of abuse. He once called the Houston fans "fickle"
 
axman40 said:
Fair weather I can see but I have to disagree with ignorant.

:fans:
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That's just his underhanded way of saying since we think Carr is horrible and needs to go that we're ignorant.

The reality of it is there are 3 or 4 levels of fandom in every city. The hard core people that make every effort to know everything about their team. The fair weather people that will jump on board when a team wins. And people like this guy who are infatuated with one player and don't really care if the rest of the team is successful.
 
Goldeagle said:
They also dont see our Owners as "wanting" to win.
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They can "see" what they want to see. Alexander has two championships, and McLane has a WS appearance (with a very winning team the past 10 years, too). McNair is just a noob and the Texans are only five years old.

We can generalize about every city's fans and their owners, but I won't, because generalizations are the sign of weak minded individuals.
 
Vinny said:
I donno if you are remembering that right. Dan threw 57 passes to running back Fred Willis in 1973 (I remember Fred was productive cause I had a 44 Oilers jersey) :). Dan took heat but I don't remember that as a knock specifically. In the 70's the long ball was in fashion and you could beat up the wr's all over the field so it was certainly a different game...but Pastorini did take a ton of abuse. He once called the Houston fans "fickle"
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Granted, I was pretty young, but I do recall Dante taking heat for 3 long passes and out. Maybe we're recalling different parts of the Oilers in that era.

That said, Pastorini was who I wanted to be when neighborhood kids got together to play ball.
 
Here is Dante's career numbers:

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1971 hou | 14 | 127 270 47.0 1702 6.3 7 21 | 26 140 3 |
| 1972 hou | 14 | 144 299 48.2 1711 5.7 7 12 | 38 205 2 |
| 1973 hou | 14 | 154 290 53.1 1482 5.1 5 17 | 31 102 0 |
| 1974 hou | 11 | 140 247 56.7 1571 6.4 10 10 | 24 -6 0 |
| 1975 hou | 14 | 163 342 47.7 2053 6.0 14 16 | 23 97 1 |
| 1976 hou | 13 | 167 309 54.0 1795 5.8 10 10 | 11 45 0 |
| 1977 hou | 14 | 169 319 53.0 1987 6.2 13 18 | 18 39 2 |
| 1978 hou | 16 | 199 368 54.1 2473 6.7 16 17 | 18 11 0 |
| 1979 hou | 15 | 163 324 50.3 2090 6.5 14 18 | 15 23 0 |
| 1980 oak | 5 | 66 130 50.8 932 7.2 5 8 | 4 24 0 |
| 1981 ram | 7 | 64 152 42.1 719 4.7 2 14 | 7 5 0 |
| 1983 phi | 3 | 0 5 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 | 1 0 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 140 | 1556 3055 50.9 18515 6.1 103 161 | 216 685 8 |
:ok:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/PastDa00.htm
 
David Carr:


+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 2002 hou | 16 | 233 444 52.5 2592 5.8 9 15 | 59 282 3 |
| 2003 hou | 12 | 167 295 56.6 2013 6.8 9 13 | 27 151 2 |
| 2004 hou | 16 | 285 466 61.2 3531 7.6 16 14 | 73 299 0 |
| 2005 hou | 16 | 256 423 60.5 2488 5.9 14 11 | 56 308 1 |
| 2006 hou | 14 | 277 404 68.6 2516 6.2 10 11 | 47 187 2 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 74 | 1218 2032 59.9 13140 6.5 58 64 | 262 1227 8 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
:cowboy1:
 
It's hard to compare era's axman. The rules of the game aren't the same. You could knock WR's all over the field back then and there was no in the grasp rules. Today you can't touch a wr after 5 yards and you can't touch a QB unless he has the ball and its over the knees and below the shoulder pads. The guy's stats at the bottom of my post is hall of famer Joe Namath.

axman40 said:
Here is Dante's career numbers:

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1971 hou | 14 | 127 270 47.0 1702 6.3 7 21 | 26 140 3 |
| 1972 hou | 14 | 144 299 48.2 1711 5.7 7 12 | 38 205 2 |
| 1973 hou | 14 | 154 290 53.1 1482 5.1 5 17 | 31 102 0 |
| 1974 hou | 11 | 140 247 56.7 1571 6.4 10 10 | 24 -6 0 |
| 1975 hou | 14 | 163 342 47.7 2053 6.0 14 16 | 23 97 1 |
| 1976 hou | 13 | 167 309 54.0 1795 5.8 10 10 | 11 45 0 |
| 1977 hou | 14 | 169 319 53.0 1987 6.2 13 18 | 18 39 2 |
| 1978 hou | 16 | 199 368 54.1 2473 6.7 16 17 | 18 11 0 |
| 1979 hou | 15 | 163 324 50.3 2090 6.5 14 18 | 15 23 0 |
| 1980 oak | 5 | 66 130 50.8 932 7.2 5 8 | 4 24 0 |
| 1981 ram | 7 | 64 152 42.1 719 4.7 2 14 | 7 5 0 |
| 1983 phi | 3 | 0 5 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 | 1 0 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 140 | 1556 3055 50.9 18515 6.1 103 161 | 216 685 8 |
:ok:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/PastDa00.htm
Click to expand...

Joe Namath


| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1965 nyj | 13 | 164 340 48.2 2220 6.5 18 15 | 8 19 0 |
| 1966 nyj | 14 | 232 471 49.3 3379 7.2 19 27 | 6 42 2 |
| 1967 nyj | 14 | 258 491 52.5 4007 8.2 26 28 | 6 14 0 |
| 1968 nyj | 14 | 187 380 49.2 3147 8.3 15 17 | 5 11 2 |
| 1969 nyj | 14 | 185 361 51.2 2734 7.6 19 17 | 11 33 2 |
| 1970 nyj | 5 | 90 179 50.3 1259 7.0 5 12 | 1 -1 0 |
| 1971 nyj | 4 | 28 59 47.5 537 9.1 5 6 | 3 -1 0 |
| 1972 nyj | 13 | 162 324 50.0 2816 8.7 19 21 | 6 8 0 |
| 1973 nyj | 6 | 68 133 51.1 966 7.3 5 6 | 1 -2 0 |
| 1974 nyj | 14 | 191 361 52.9 2616 7.2 20 22 | 8 1 1 |
| 1975 nyj | 14 | 157 326 48.2 2286 7.0 15 28 | 10 6 0 |
| 1976 nyj | 11 | 114 230 49.6 1090 4.7 4 16 | 2 5 0 |
| 1977 ram | 4 | 50 107 46.7 606 5.7 3 5 | 4 5 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 140 | 1886 3762 50.1 27663 7.4 173 220 | 71 140 7

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/NamaJo00.htm
 
All I know is that I had a hell of a lot more fun watching the post Gilman Pastorini led Oilers - even in the 2-3 years pre-Earl - than I've had in the last two Texans seasons.

I loved watching Moon over the years and never heard a racial slur or anything else personally derogatory in the stands - other than play related stuff - and I was at every game he played at the Dome. Just like the beer on Carr's wife incident, I think some of this stuff is more isolated than not and it tends to gain more legend as the years go by.

We (and Carr) need to move on.
 
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