Honest Discussion!

What is Kubiak trying to do to the Team and Carr? I ask that because we could have put Van Pelt in the Game. We could have put the young back in the game. We could have drafted an O-line. If you look over the 5 year history what have we done with the O-line that has resulted in anything but substandard play?

Today's game was a travisty. Was Carr as bad as he looked or do we have other problems? If we would have played Van Pelt, would have looked equally bad and then known the problem is the coaching. If we would have put the young back in the game and he made everyone look bad then would have made Kubiak look bad?

Kubiak has altered Carr's throwing technique in case you haven't noticed. Some of you have noticed he's putting more arch in his throw. Its almost like he wants to throw Carr to the wolves. He's not allowed to do anything offensively except for what Kubiak calls and wants. He can't audible. Kubiak wants him to lead what?

Our game planning sucks, our play sucks, and our team and coaching staff suck. As I have said this is an honest discussion, because I can't imagine a coach wanting to humilate his team. Basically that is what is happening.

AGAIN, WHAT IS KUBIAK DOING IN YOUR MIND?

My guess is that Van Pelt is merely an emergency quarterback and that Kubiak has no real interest in evaluating him. Therefore there's no need to put him in the game. On the other hand, David Carr is being evaluated, so Kubiak kept him in.

Just a guess, but it's a fairly reasonable one.

He doen't run as much as he use to either.

Tulip said:

My guess is that Van Pelt is merely an emergency quarterback and that Kubiak has no real interest in evaluating him. Therefore there's no need to put him in the game. On the other hand, David Carr is being evaluated, so Kubiak kept him in.

Just a guess, but it's a fairly reasonable one.

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Well as a counter is he also evaluating the O-line? Would it be fairer to all to put in Van Pelt and see if the problem is as all of you think? Again, all I'm saying is that it should be both ways. Quite frankly I'm leaning to the camp Carr is through group, but he has taken one hell of a beating doing his best for the Texans. How many of the O-linemen are still standing? How many QB's in the league have been lost for the season taking lesser hits than Carr?

I guess I'm not ready to give up on Carr until we fix the O-line. We have not had a solid O-line in 5 years? Kubiak is suppose to be a magician with the running game. Well, I agree he has made it totally disappear. Why does he continue to try to humiliate everyone on this ball club?

Ibar_Harry said:

What is Kubiak trying to do to the Team and Carr? I ask that because we could have put Van Pelt in the Game. We could have put the young back in the game. We could have drafted an O-line. If you look over the 5 year history what have we done with the O-line that has resulted in anything but substandard play?

Today's game was a travisty. Was Carr as bad as he looked or do we have other problems? If we would have played Van Pelt, would have looked equally bad and then known the problem is the coaching. If we would have put the young back in the game and he made everyone look bad then would have made Kubiak look bad?

Kubiak has altered Carr's throwing technique in case you haven't noticed. Some of you have noticed he's putting more arch in his throw. Its almost like he wants to throw Carr to the wolves. He's not allowed to do anything offensively except for what Kubiak calls and wants. He can't audible. Kubiak wants him to lead what?

Our game planning sucks, our play sucks, and our team and coaching staff suck. As I have said this is an honest discussion, because I can't imagine a coach wanting to humilate his team. Basically that is what is happening.

AGAIN, WHAT IS KUBIAK DOING IN YOUR MIND?

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i can see why kubiak wouldnt take carr out. with 2 games left, might as well leave him out. i think kubiak is going to leave him out there to show what he has. with 2 games left, kubiak probably wants to be 100% sure that carr cannot be salvaged. we can bear through it guys. next year will be a new beginning with a new QB at the helm.

Ibar_Harry said:

Kubiak is suppose to be a magician with the running game. Well, I agree he has made it totally disappear. Why does he continue to try to humiliate everyone on this ball club?

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Ron Dayne ran for 5.7 yards per carry. That's hardly disappointing.

Tulip said:

Ron Dayne ran for 5.7 yards per carry. That's hardly disappointing.

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Well, then why don't you keep using him. I think you will find a lot of Dayne's yards came later in the game just like Carr getting Yards later. However, at least why not run the ball and the clock out to keep your team from being beaten to death. Dayne has only been effective the last 3-4 games.

Ibar_Harry said:

I guess I'm not ready to give up on Carr until we fix the O-line. We have not had a solid O-line in 5 years? Kubiak is suppose to be a magician with the running game. Well, I agree he has made it totally disappear. Why does he continue to try to humiliate everyone on this ball club?

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David Carr has thrown 1 TD and 7 INTs in the past few games....I forget the number. Our Oline is bad, true but Carr is just plain bad and how can you not see that. I'm tired of the Oline excuse for Carr, he sucks period. Can you not see his regression the past 2-3 years. Carr is done in Houston, end of story.

Ibar_Harry said:

Well, then why don't you keep using him. I think you will find a lot of Dayne's yards came later in the game just like Carr getting Yards later. However, at least why not run the ball and the clock out to keep your team from being beaten to death. Dayne has only been effective the last 3-4 games.

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I guess you didn't watch the game again Ibar. Don't they have sports bars out in the valley?

Ibar_Harry said:

Well, then why don't you keep using him. I think you will find a lot of Dayne's yards came later in the game just like Carr getting Yards later. However, at least why not run the ball and the clock out to keep your team from being beaten to death. Dayne has only been effective the last 3-4 games.

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This is what happens...Dayne will run for say 7-8 yards on 1st and 2nd down, and on 3rd Carr throws a 1-2 yard dink pass. It's been happening all season, even for the past 5 years. Carr can't convert on 3rd down. Look at last week's game in particular and you can see this.

Ibar_Harry said:

Well, then why don't you keep using him. I think you will find a lot of Dayne's yards came later in the game just like Carr getting Yards later. However, at least why not run the ball and the clock out to keep your team from being beaten to death. Dayne has only been effective the last 3-4 games.

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What? Most of his yards came in the first half. Did you watch the game?

Vinny said:

I guess you didn't watch the game again Ibar. Don't they have sports bars out in the valley?

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As always on this kind of a post we are getting away from my point and that is what is Kubiak trying to do to his team? To me he is humiliating everyone on the ball club and running them into the ground. If you are trying to get value for Carr are you defeating your own goals?

Again, what is this club's philosophy people? What is your intent? Don't throw the baby out with the bath water as they like to say.

Vinny said:

I guess you didn't watch the game again Ibar. Don't they have sports bars out in the valley?

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Ibar_Harry said:

As always on this kind of a post we are getting away from my point and that is what is Kubiak trying to do to his team? To me he is humiliating everyone on the ball club and running them into the ground. If you are trying to get value for Carr are you defeating your own goals?

Again, what is this club's philosophy people? What is your intent? Don't throw the baby out with the bath water as they like to say.

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I'll consider that a "no".

Its not just Carr it was the whole team they played like they have no heart. Today's game was just sad and for the first time I stop watching the game. Sometimes I will watch just to see if they can prove anything but today was just sick. I do not think Hodg is our center he play's just as well as the rest of the backups not very good.

Ibar_Harry said:

As always on this kind of a post we are getting away from my point and that is what is Kubiak trying to do to his team? To me he is humiliating everyone on the ball club and running them into the ground. If you are trying to get value for Carr are you defeating your own goals?

Again, what is this club's philosophy people? What is your intent? Don't throw the baby out with the bath water as they like to say.

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OK - so the Texans should turn over everyone but Carr for the second time to see if Carr can play? And I thought McNair was unreasonable in his devotion to Carr.

Id say that Kubiak is probably trying to take as much stress out of the game as possible for Carr, in hopes that he will get comfortable out there and gain some confidence, then he would slowly start giving Carr more control.

Basicly breaking him down then building him back up again.

Obviously didnt work. Oh well.. lets draft a QB of Kubes choice, and sign Jake Plummer.

I couldn't bear to watch anymore. I even started watching the Saints game. As much of a snoozer as that game was, it was infinitely more interesting than the Texans games. As my sig indicates, I am a fan to the end, but this is just getting old. We have to do something about our QB situation in the off-season.

Tulip said:

OK - so the Texans should turn over everyone but Carr for the second time to see if Carr can play? And I thought McNair was unreasonable in his devotion to Carr.

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Ibar is a Fresno State guy....not that that there is anything wrong with that.

Tulip said:

OK - so the Texans should turn over everyone but Carr for the second time to see if Carr can play? And I thought McNair was unreasonable in his devotion to Carr.

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Again, while Carr will always be an integral part of this discussion the discussion is what is Kubiak trying to do to this ball club? I mean there are other players who are being humiliated besides Carr. How is AJ feeling? How is Moulds feeling? How is Demecco feeling? How are the other players feeling about this game planning? How would you like to be an O-lineman playing on this ball club? Can you not find someway to protect your O-line even if you don't like the QB. Again, is Kubiak out to destroy this team?

Ibar_Harry said:

Well, then why don't you keep using him. I think you will find a lot of Dayne's yards came later in the game just like Carr getting Yards later. However, at least why not run the ball and the clock out to keep your team from being beaten to death. Dayne has only been effective the last 3-4 games.

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Maybe Dayne has been broken for several years and now he is fixed. He is no Earl Campbell, but it was fun to watch him dragging several defenders along for extra yards like Earl used to do. As far as better running later in the game, isn't that typical for any power back as the defense starts to wear down? I wonder how much better he would have done today if the O-Line was making some better holes for him.

As far as playing the backup QB, I don't look for it to happen. I think Kubiack is looking at this as an evaluation/training time for Carr, and that's hard to do with him on the bench.

This is not meant to be a Pro-Carr/Anti-Carr thread. My hope is that this thread can shed some light (for me, at least) about what those of you who want Carr out of town ASAP are thinking about and going through. I was hoping to get some well thought-out explanations to the following questions:

1. Have you ever supported Carr? If not, what are the things about him that you think hinders his play (If you give such examples as 'he takes to long to make throws' or 'he never throws the deep ball' please provide a few examples to proof your case)?

2. Do you think Carr played well at the beginning of this year? If not, why? Please disregard the W-L record in answering this question.

3. Do you think that Carr is the main reason why we haven't been winning? If so, please provide examples that help to show myself and others that this is not a line problem. I would ask to show that it is not gameplanning either, but since we don't have information about the specific playcalling, that's not possible.

4. What could Carr do (within reason) to convince you that he belongs here? Is there anything that he could realistically do to sway you?

5. Finally, my assertion is that we are playing horribly due to our system. It is well known that Kubiak is a run-first, pass second type of coach; yet our run game has been less that adequate this season. Without a run game, Kubiak finds himself in trouble trying to overcompensate with the pass game...which is not in his comfort zone and causes him to make some ill-advised calls. If you think that this is incorrect, will you please provide examples as to why?


I want to thank, in advance, anyone who takes this discussion seriously and provides honest input. I will admit that it is getting hard to watch games sometimes, but I always will because this is my team. It is my belief that our offense is playing poorly due to a multitude of problems, not just because of Carr. That's not to say Carr hasn't been playing poorly lately, because he has.

I would just like to know why those that are on the other side of the fence feel the way they do about Carr, while actually providing some concrete evidence. I guess it goes without saying that this thread need not apply to zealots who folllow the Anti-Carr crowd without really understanding why.

Vinny said:

Ibar is a Fresno State guy....not that that there is anything wrong with that.

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You know Vinny even you were wondering what Kubiak was doing in some of the earlier games. Why are you afraid to lay it on the line with what Kubiak is doing? I'm sorry, but I think the coach is doing a lot of harm to this ball club. Yes, and I think they're a lot of angry fans who don't like what they see. Is he trying to show Mr. McNair up. He's doing a good job of making him look like fool. If I were Mr. McNair I might not like being made a fool of. After all he hired Kubiak to do the best job he can do with the team and not make the Texans the laughing stock of the league. I don't care how you feel about Carr. I don't think this team or Carr deserve to be treated the way they are being treated. I do not think it is in the total best interest of the ball club.

Ibar_Harry said:

You know Vinny even you were wondering what Kubiak was doing in some of the earlier games. Why are you afraid to lay it on the line with what Kubiak is doing? I'm sorry, but I think the coach is doing a lot of harm to this ball club. Yes, and I think they're a lot of angry fans who don't like what they see. Is he trying to show Mr. McNair up. He's doing a good job of making him look like fool. If I were Mr. McNair I might not like being made a fool of. After all he hired Kubiak to do the best job he can do with the team and not make the Texans the laughing stock of the league. I don't care how you feel about Carr. I don't think this team or Carr deserve to be treated the way they are being treated. I do not think it is in the total best interest of the ball club.

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You Fresno fans crack me up.

Oh, goodness. I seriously doubt that Kubiak is trying to sabotage his career by having a bad season his first season as head coach.

Kubiak hitched his wagon to the wrong horse, but he didn't have much of a choice.

Ibar_Harry said:

I guess I'm not ready to give up on Carr until we fix the O-line. We have not had a solid O-line in 5 years? Kubiak is suppose to be a magician with the running game. Well, I agree he has made it totally disappear. Why does he continue to try to humiliate everyone on this ball club?

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Are you serious? Or just retarded?

TheCD said:

1. Have you ever supported Carr? If not, what are the things about him that you think hinders his play (If you give such examples as 'he takes to long to make throws' or 'he never throws the deep ball' please provide a few examples to proof your case)?

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I've supported Carr. I supported him through this season, but these last few weeks have given me doubts. Now he isn't going to play well when over half of his offensive line has been lost to injury, but even with that I think he's played poorly. He just doesn't give me an air of confidence that I see with out QBs. He has the talent to succeed, and I believe he will succeed, but with another team. Sometimes you just need a change of scenery.

2. Do you think Carr played well at the beginning of this year? If not, why? Please disregard the W-L record in answering this question.

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Yes. He didn't play like an All-Pro, but I do think I saw improvement the first half of the season. He's getting worse and worse as the season goes on however.

3. Do you think that Carr is the main reason why we haven't been winning? If so, please provide examples that help to show myself and others that this is not a line problem. I would ask to show that it is not gameplanning either, but since we don't have information about the specific playcalling, that's not possible.

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No. He's part of the reason, but he's not the main reason. The game against the Bills, the defense played poorly at the end. The game against the Titans, the defense played poorly...at the end. He was a main factor in the first loss against the Titans. He hasn't been the main reason in all of our losses, but he has been a factor in some of them.

4. What could Carr do (within reason) to convince you that he belongs here? Is there anything that he could realistically do to sway you?

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Not really. If he plays well these final two games, then maybe, but I still think he needs a change of scenery.

5. Finally, my assertion is that we are playing horribly due to our system. It is well known that Kubiak is a run-first, pass second type of coach; yet our run game has been less that adequate this season. Without a run game, Kubiak finds himself in trouble trying to overcompensate with the pass game...which is not in his comfort zone and causes him to make some ill-advised calls. If you think that this is incorrect, will you please provide examples as to why?

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Agree with most of what you said. Dayne has played well these last few weeks, but it's too little too late. A run game and an offensive line that can protect and stay healthy would make Carr a better QB for sure, but I'm not sure if he would still be the QB we want him to be.

1. I supported Carr for 4 years and strongly supported him for 3.

2. He played average IMO. Nothing great or spectacular, and not as bad as he is playing now.

3. Yes....the "Main" reason I believe. The guy doesn't seem to convert on 3rd downs as much as he should. I'm talking about when it's a passing play and he fails to get the ball to someone for a 1st down. If you remember last week, I believe I counted 5 times he underthrew on 3rd down. He puts the defense in a bad spot constantly.

4. No, Ive seen 5 years of this and I've seen enough.

5. Past 3 games....Dayne has been effective, yet Carr has struggled very bad.

I'm with Ibar on this one. I have no clue what Kubiak is doing, what he is trying to prove much less why he is doing it. I would really like an answer to that question/those questions.

If one is evaluating one's QB, it only seems logical to me that one put in yet another QB to see if they, indeed, have the same problems. Today's game would have been a perfect time to do that - it was an away game, goodness knows we didn't have a snowball's chance to win after the first quarter. Heck, try both QBs - one in the third and one in the fourth.

It might have appeared as if Kubiak was losing faith in his chosen QB - there is that. But to stick to your guns in the face of everything that was going wrong today seems to be basically stupid. I would have tried every guy on the bench and possibly a few from the crowd.

I can't imagine that Kubiak is enjoying this or doing this on purpose. He simply has to have a plan - I just wish I was privy to even part of that plan.

I am clueless to what anyone in this organization is thinking.

1) I liked Carr and was excited about him through our first 3 years. I thought he was making strides and that the team was improving.

2 and 3) I started doubting Carr last year when I decided to DVR the games and pick apart what the team was doing. He consistently makes the same mistakes over and over. It isn't just one game, it is every game. Little things like throwing the ball away. I know it is cliche to talk about throwing it away but it hurts the team greatly. A perfect example is the game against the Raiders this year. He got outside the pocket, avoided a rush and then with a guy closing in he ducked and lost three yards when he had plenty of time to flick it out of bounds. This is year 5 and these are mistakes that rookies make.

I thought his stats were deceiving earlier in the year. You can run 5 yard hitches all day long and teams are going to give them to you because it forces a team to move down the field on long drives. Most teams will sit and wait for the mistakes to come. So he could be 65% for the day and have great numbers but if you are in a hole because you can't stretch the D, etc then it doesn't matter. You say ignore Ws and Ls when in reality it is ALL about Ws and Ls. I'd rather have a smart QB that still makes some mistakes and gets Ws then have a QB who is limited and who still makes simple mistakes. There are rookies..multiple ones that have a better grasp of the game then he does. He doesn't give our team the best chance to win. The coach is limited because of his failure. Why did we run a draw against the Titans last week on 3rd and 8 or whatever when we had a chance to go down and take the lead back, not just tie?If you have no faith in a guy, then what good is he.

4) There is nothing he could do. He has had 5 years and if he isn't smart enough to stop making the same mistakes, why should we keep him?I would think differently if I saw progress despite the team. I'll put it this way...look at our D. Ryans is the "QB", if you will of the D and people are excited. I see a future despite games like today. I see guys playing hard a better attitude. I see despair on O.

5) I completely disagree with yout point #5. The sytem is babying Carr and allowing him to have small, nice stats at time while doing nothing. The running game kept us in the Titans game. Plus we don't have top backs but they still have picked up the pace.

Overall, I'm stunned that people still make excuses for the guy. Watch the game and watch it again. You will see the same msitakes. No O-line is perfect. There are teams with QBs that make the line look good..Dallas for one and the Titans for another. The previous QBs were getting killed before. Rosenfels, despite clean up duty, showed more "presence" in the pocket then I have ever seen out of Carr. Some guys have it. If you could fix every QB with rocks for brains and a strong arm then there would be alot of Ryan Leafs running teams right now.

As the commentators said during the game:

"good players find ways to make plays"

And its true. Carr has not done that.. and we dont have time as an organization to build up the team around him so that he will be able to "get the job done" with the skills that he has... we need a QB that can get the job done now.. someone to help us grow, not hinder us.

Grid said:

As the commentators said during the game:

"good players find ways to make plays"

And its true. Carr has not done that.. and we dont have time as an organization to build up the team around him so that he will be able to "get the job done" with the skills that he has... we need a QB that can get the job done now.. someone to help us grow, not hinder us.

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Exactly

GO BENGALS!
TEXANS REALLY STINK!

Ibar it's the end of the road for David Carr. Nobody stunk this game up nearly as badly as David did. He threw interceptions, sometimes to places where nobody was even remotely close enough to be called a target, he fumbled the ball, he failed to even notice the pass rush before it was one him. I sat through a couple of drives doing that primitive "counting how long it takes for the QB to throw the ball" thing that we all do sooner or later when watching Carr. I did it when Brady had the ball too. Not much difference really. Granted nobody was near Brady most of the time when he threw the ball but on average he gets rid of it a tad faster than it takes a defender to swat Carr from behind, cause a fumble, and/or get a sack.

At this point in his career David Carr has no business even stepping onto a football field. How he got that way is open for debate but there's no power on earth that can convince me that "it's all somehow Gary's fault"

Well, there have been a hell of alot of injuries to the offensive line. That's not kubiaks fault. Carr is done in houston and needs to go to another team to salvage his career. I dont think his teamates have confidence in him to lead this team. I really dont understand what kubiak is doing leaving carr in the game today.

Ibar_Harry said:

Well, then why don't you keep using him. I think you will find a lot of Dayne's yards came later in the game just like Carr getting Yards later. However, at least why not run the ball and the clock out to keep your team from being beaten to death. Dayne has only been effective the last 3-4 games.

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No, Dane ran the same the whole game

Ibar_Harry said:

You know Vinny even you were wondering what Kubiak was doing in some of the earlier games. Why are you afraid to lay it on the line with what Kubiak is doing? I'm sorry, but I think the coach is doing a lot of harm to this ball club. Yes, and I think they're a lot of angry fans who don't like what they see. Is he trying to show Mr. McNair up. He's doing a good job of making him look like fool. If I were Mr. McNair I might not like being made a fool of. After all he hired Kubiak to do the best job he can do with the team and not make the Texans the laughing stock of the league. I don't care how you feel about Carr. I don't think this team or Carr deserve to be treated the way they are being treated. I do not think it is in the total best interest of the ball club.

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I disagree Ibar. Kub is working the team to find out who are keepers and who arent. He trys to do faith plays to help build confidence in our team. Problem is, confidence is very low right now and many do not have faith in Carr's play. He has been dumping down the ball and staring at his targets. Kub is doing the best job he can right now, but this team is hurting hard. In faith and in abilities. You play Carr as innocent here. He isnt. Matter of fact, he has the single most important position on this team, and seems to have his team losing faith of this abilities. Carr must be allowed to move on in the interest of the ball club before we get better.

I watched today's game all the way to the end and I'm convinced that Carr has to go, becuase if he stays here, the fans are going to revolt. I started out as a big fan of his. He was even my avatar on this board. We will never know what kind of QB he could have been because of the damage Capers and Co. did to him the 4 years. Who in their right minds throws a rookie behind a patchwork O-line?

DatTexBoy said:

Are you serious? Or just retarded?

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I'm thinking senility more than retardation. His idea that Kubiak is somehow the problem instead of Carr reveals Ibar for what he is. I no longer take his posts seriously. I just laugh at him.