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"Coach convinced QB's technique fails under stress"

N

nunusguy

Hall of Fame
"I teach a quarterback to read with his feet," Kubiak said. "You take a three-step drop, you hit your ball foot, the ball goes here; if he's not open, you hitch, the ball goes here. That's the way you teach a guy to read. It is different for (Carr), what I'm teaching, so it's difficult for him."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4315381.html
**************************
Kinda a wierd story heading, but that's Megan Manfulls language for this story which is probably best appreciated by you guys who know about the nuances of playing QB.
 
I heard this quote this morning. It indicates (to me) that Kubiak is having to go through a process of 'deprogramming' Carr from the conditioning he's endured from 200+ sacks in four seasons. And he probably has to undo the garbage put into DC's head from the previous regime. I have to wonder where Carr's development would be right now if he'd been coached by Kubiak for his entire career.

That is a weird story heading, though. :um:
 
One thing that is very important in life is realizing when you are in over your head and doing something about it. Self-evaluation is so critical and it seems to me from what I have read that Carr doesn't do that.

It seems as though Carr went through his first 4 years on autopilot not questioning a thing from Capers or getting help somewhere else.

If I was the #1 pick in the draft and with a $60 million dollar contract, I would like to think that I could realize my shortcomings and find some way to fix them despite coaching staff or talent around me.

It seems like Carr just waits around for someone to tell him something than trying to figuring it out on his own.

A good example of that is that after year 3 he finally went to Capers and told him he was being sacked too many times. My first question was, why did he wait 3 years to discuss that with Capers? I would have discussed that during the rookie season.

Maybe I am being too critical of Carr and I definitely don't know everything he does to make himself better, but I just don't get the sense that he is proactive in the betterment of his QB skills or career. It seems like he waits around for other people to tell him what to do.
 
Lets take a quick look at the "old regime" v. the "new":
Kubiak:
Young, Elway and Plummer (who was improved last season)

Palmer:
Couch, Bledsoe, Brunell and DC.......
 
FYI - writers in major newpapers do not write their own headlines. They have headline writers for that.

In any case, his footwork has always been shoddy.
 
Double Barrel said:
Kubiak is having to go through a process of 'deprogramming' Carr from the conditioning he's endured from 200+ sacks in four seasons. And he probably has to undo the garbage put into DC's head from the previous regime. I have to wonder where Carr's development would be right now if he'd been coached by Kubiak for his entire career.
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Sickening to think, isn't it? With the weapons Carr has, if they'd taken hold of him after college, taught him to hold onto the ball and STOP STARING DOWN EVERY DAMN RECEIVER he throws to, we could potentially have one of the very best QBs in the NFL playing for us right now. Those are both cardinal sins and he's still pretty good, even with all that.
 
Well, this is the sort of story that I want to hear. A specific technical problem stated in absolute terms is something that can be fixed. To me that's much more interesting than things like "we need to play better on the road" or "we need to protect the football" or 'we need to execute better".
 
wolfscar said:
Sickening to think, isn't it? With the weapons Carr has, if they'd taken hold of him after college, taught him to hold onto the ball and STOP STARING DOWN EVERY DAMN RECEIVER he throws to, we could potentially have one of the very best QBs in the NFL playing for us right now. Those are both cardinal sins and he's still pretty good, even with all that.
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Makes you wonder about all of the other draft "busts" we've had, doesn't it? Maybe the problem wasn't talent evaluation but player development. I imagine the Texans have short circuited some careers that could have been better.
 
Runner said:
Makes you wonder about all of the other draft "busts" we've had, doesn't it? Maybe the problem wasn't talent evaluation but player development. I imagine the Texans have short circuited some careers that could have been better.
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which is why Capers was the first to go.
 
Nice to hear it coming from the staff, but it certainly was no mystery if you watched any of our games over the last 4.5 years. Two left feet don't make a right.
 
In Kubiak's comments he also said Carr does not audible, that is not part of our game, I believe he said, so we know more about why Carr does some of the things he does. I was impressed with the fact AJ finally helped out his QB by going after the catch instead of letting the ball come to him. All in all, last week was a winnable game against another team with more talent then we have. The Titan game was our gift to them.
:homer:
Just because I am a I need to bring it up that we can still finish with a winning record, and I for one believe.
 
So his feet get out of wack because he has been hammered ever since he got here.............WoW!:yawn:

I think I will write an article on "Houston Texas is humid".
 
I stated this in an earlier post, but I think it interesting that no one wants to discuss that Carr appears to not take a personal interest in his own development.

It appears as though he waits around for the coach to tell him what to do or to explain something that he is doing wrong. If that doesn't happen, he just chugs along.

A mark of a good professional (or anyone wanting to be successful in life) is being proactive in his or her own development and knowing when he makes a mistake or has bad technique without a coach's input.
 
hollywood_texan said:
I stated this in an earlier post, but I think it interesting that no one wants to discuss that Carr appears to not take a personal interest in his own development.

It appears as though he waits around for the coach to tell him what to do or to explain something that he is doing wrong. If that doesn't happen, he just chugs along.

A mark of a good professional (or anyone wanting to be successful in life) is being proactive in his or her own development and knowing when he makes a mistake or has bad technique without a coach's input.
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LMAO....How can you do the "right thing" if you don't know what "the right thing" is ????
 
Here is what I see the problems of Carr are:

  • Directional throws - Carr is the type of QB that throws lazers, he needs to be able to throw to a spot and let the receiver catch it. 2 examples. Example 1: Tiki Barber catches a ball out of the backfield while running to the sidelines and then proceeding forward, then the ball catches him in stride. Carr delivers the ball at the point of the body where the back has to catch the ball while looking at David. Example 2: Rosenfels throws a ball high and ahead of Andre Johnson in the endzone on a slant play, Johnson has to adjust by leaping and stretching for the ball. Carr throws a ball at the numbers with more mustard on it, allowing the defender to get at it as much as AJ. Carr isn't using his players ability in those situations. Although he having a great passing percentage, the WR's are not called on to make plays if they are covered. There was one long bomb pass the Carr put up for Andre that the Receiver was actually called upon to get it, and guess what, it was a TD.
  • Line Awareness - Carr needs to move around the pocket better and step up in it while the DE's are swinging to the outside. I thought last game he did that well, but he chose the underneath stuff. If you are getting time by moving around in the pocket, then the deeper guys are going to be open more. We need more long plays that way.
  • Anger - Carr just flat out needs to fire up this offense vocally. He needs to have some bark in his voice and convey that to his teammates that he means business. It's his show, he needs to run it. If he's going to take all the heat then he'd better have a say so in it. He should have been all over Cook for that drive killing fumble that potentially could have won them the game.
  • TE play - Carr needs to find the TE more and not lock onto AJ so much. I'd rather AJ have over 100 yards on 4 catches than 10 catches for 90.
  • Run less - Carr should run less, but only on non-rollout type plays. Make him stay in the pocket and find the receiver, at times he looks to bail out to fast instead of buying time to find the receiver.
  • Call audibles - Allow Carr to call his audibles, he has proven to be very good at calling his own game.
  • Play fakes - Carr is not using the effective enough. I've seen several play-action-passes that are effective, but when there is a run, he just stands there and doesn't act like he still has the ball. DE's are being conditioned to look at our offense and stay in their area to expect a roll-out. Carr needs to act like he is still rolling out on run plays, maybe this will open up the end runs.
 
Pretty fair analysis, although I might quibble a bit on the details. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have been wanting to say this since Sunday, so here goes.

If Sage had started the last two games start to finsh, this team would be 4-4, and we would be in the playoff hunt. With Carr, we are 2-6, and going nowhere. I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try. Carr has proven he will never lead this particular team anywhere. Until Kubes can be honest with himself, and forget about his ego, this team is stuck in this hellish black hole we are in.
 
Well anyone who has watched the Texans for a while will tell you that DC doesn't have the best mechanics. I mentioned this a few months ago that DC seems to throw off of his backfoot a lot and his delivery is almost sidearmed. The ball tends to sail and it results in an incomplete pass or as an interception. Also when the rush is on DC will sometimes step right into the arms of the pass rusher instead of moving away. For example, when Sage was in during the Titans game he avoided the rush multiple time by moving outside or stepping up in the pocket and making a throw. DC has to learn that he's got to stand tall and deliver a strong pass. I know Kubiak and crew are working hard at this because it is a problem and it has been for too long of a time.
 
Runner said:
Actively pursue knowledge. Don't wait around until somebody else takes the initiative to improve you.
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Sure....he can just go to his local Library and pick up the book, Quaterbacking for Dummies.....
 
Gerry Fleck: I can't dance, I can't dance, I've got two left feet!
Cookie Fleck: I thought he was kidding.
Gerry Fleck: But I wasn't. I was born with two left feet.
 
hollywood_texan said:
I stated this in an earlier post, but I think it interesting that no one wants to discuss that Carr appears to not take a personal interest in his own development.

It appears as though he waits around for the coach to tell him what to do or to explain something that he is doing wrong. If that doesn't happen, he just chugs along.

A mark of a good professional (or anyone wanting to be successful in life) is being proactive in his or her own development and knowing when he makes a mistake or has bad technique without a coach's input.
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I don't think anyone is discussing it because no one believes that. Well, maybe a few of the haters, but not trying to win has never been Carrs problem.
 
Porky said:
Pretty fair analysis, although I might quibble a bit on the details. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have been wanting to say this since Sunday, so here goes.

If Sage had started the last two games start to finsh, this team would be 4-4, and we would be in the playoff hunt. With Carr, we are 2-6, and going nowhere. I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try. Carr has proven he will never lead this particular team anywhere. Until Kubes can be honest with himself, and forget about his ego, this team is stuck in this hellish black hole we are in.
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I'm not slamming you for the statement about Sage making us 4-4, but if you want to be unrealistic, how about if we had had Sage from the beginning, we would be 8-0. It's about the same. To me that is a very silly statement.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Sure....he can just go to his local Library and pick up the book, Quaterbacking for Dummies.....
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I don't think that would work. I can think of a few things off of the top of my head though.

Contacting other successful QBs in the off-season (retired or active), challenging his coaches when he notices other QBs have more success than him, inviting himself to a month of Andre's workouts at the U to work with successful players during the off-season are the type of things I'm talking about.

Taking actions like these or any of the many others I'd never think of just require him to take responsibility for his own improvement and act upon it.


Before the accusation is tossed out, I'm not a Carr basher. I rarely post about Dave because it is usually a waste of energy around here. I do think it is time for him to step up as an individual though.
 
Texanfan4ever said:
I'm not slamming you for the statement about Sage making us 4-4, but if you want to be unrealistic, how about if we had had Sage from the beginning, we would be 8-0. It's about the same. To me that is a very silly statement.
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The defense wasn't good enough the first three games, so those are losses no matter who is behind center. Since then, we are 2-3. I say with Sage, we are 4-1 in these past 5 games. That would make us 4-4 overall. That's my belief. So sue me. :rolleyes:
 
hollywood_texan said:
I stated this in an earlier post, but I think it interesting that no one wants to discuss that Carr appears to not take a personal interest in his own development.
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Maybe because there is nothing to discuss because it is just baseless speculation in a vacuum. You seem to like to take an absence of information and find that informative of a lack of action or interest by Carr. We have no idea what discussions Carr had over the years with Palmer, Pendry and Capers.
 
Texanfan4ever said:
I don't think anyone is discussing it because no one believes that. Well, maybe a few of the haters, but not trying to win has never been Carrs problem.
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You might want to look at some the of the posts previous to yours.

It looks like some people have some of the same thoughts as mine, they are just not expressing them directly though. Maybe I am reading too much in there comments? A little self evaulation there, ha, ha, ha...

On the same topic though, I saw an interview with Peyton Manning and the interviewer basically asked Peyton how lucky he thought he was to have Marvin Harrison as a WR for so many years of his career

Peyton's response was that there was no luck involved, it was hard work by working together to show that the relationship was better toghether than separated.

I am not saying Carr needs to be like Peyton, because that guy has a work ethic that probably most people can't even dream about. But it appears Carr needs to put some more elbow grease on his preparation and technique. In addition, he needs to self evaluate himself where the coach can ask Carr where he screwed up and he can give him the answer. Basically coach himself, which shouldn't be too much to ask of an NFL player.

No one is prefect but it really helps to know the mistake without someone telling you. I just don't get that sense with Carr and these articles.

Also, I remember Kubiak saying that Carr did well in the OTAs but they need to come to training camp and not go over the same technique stuff again. I don't know if this is the same stuff they went over in the OTAs, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is because it seems to be just basic technique. Kubiak is going over the same thing Carr over and over, so it appears.
 
infantrycak said:
Maybe because there is nothing to discuss because it is just baseless speculation in a vacuum. You seem to like to take an absence of information and find that informative of a lack of action or interest by Carr. We have no idea what discussions Carr had over the years with Palmer, Pendry and Capers.
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My posts are not baseless.

I am taking several articles written about Carr and his work ethic and how other successful QBs perpare.

From what I have read and seen, it looks like it isn't there when it comes to Carr.

I don't see everything that he does and I don't know his work habits, so I can't say conclusively, but I can still take a reasonable basis of what is going on by taking taking several sources and coming to conclusion.

I am not 100% positive, but from what I have read and seen, it is reasonable that this stuff is going on with Carr.
 
infantrycak said:
Maybe because there is nothing to discuss because it is just baseless speculation in a vacuum. You seem to like to take an absence of information and find that informative of a lack of action or interest by Carr. We have no idea what discussions Carr had over the years with Palmer, Pendry and Capers.
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You make a good point, but after seeing year after year the same performance, worse performance, or slight improvement (take your pick from game to game) it would have been nice to see some indication that drastic changes in approach were being made.

As you say, these changes may have been made out of our sight; if they were they didn't have much effect until Kubiak came in and started leading the change step by step. The change is still slow, but hopefully it is steady in the positive direction.
 
Sage has always looked good when he has nothing to lose, when the pressure is on him from the start he crumbles.

Sage knew vs Tenn he wasn't gonna get replaced. When he has to look over his shoulder he quite the ineffective one
 
Runner said:
You make a good point, but after seeing year after year the same performance, worse performance, or slight improvement (take your pick from game to game) it would have been nice to see some indication that drastic changes in approach were being made.

As you say, these changes may have been made out of our sight; if they were they didn't have much effect until Kubiak came in and started leading the change step by step. The change is still slow, but hopefully it is steady in the positive direction.
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I agree. We re-signed him. If we did that there should have been a simple fix that was easily executable. Now we are back to a project which is to expensive to cut and run from.
 
Runner said:
You make a good point, but after seeing year after year the same performance, worse performance, or slight improvement (take your pick from game to game) it would have been nice to see some indication that drastic changes in approach were being made.

As you say, these changes may have been made out of our sight; if they were they didn't have much effect until Kubiak came in and started leading the change step by step. The change is still slow, but hopefully it is steady in the positive direction.
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The thing is--take this outside of the context of Carr and consider the Capers regime. What did you see change during that time period? 3.5 years of no pass rush before he finally tells Fangio to try blitzing the 2nd half of last season. Trotting Bradford out there time and time again. If we are looking at patterns there was definitely one of Capers playing one way and being incredibly hard headed and opinionated--Babin is a perfect 3-4 OLB and Merriman won't fit--nice. Now back to Carr--Kubiak has repeatedly made comments about how hard Carr is working, his enthusiasm, etc. Is it all fixed instantly--nope, not even close. Ses had a pretty good list up there. Reminds me of a Saving Private Ryan line--"listen up Rybeck, that's how you complain."
 
I think some of y'all are forgetting the extreme crappiness of our o-line the first four seasons. It's hard to get your fundamental mechanics down to analyze them when you're constantly running for your life and getting slammed to the ground on a regular basis.

For all we know, the braniac Palmer had been 'teaching' Carr. Palmer used to be a QB coach, remember? Just because we can now look back with 20/20 vision and say Palmer was a bad coach, I would have been flamed silly for that take two years ago. And remember, Carr never had a QB coach on this team until this season. I blame Capers and the FO for not putting DC in a position to learn his position.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Kubiak's philosophy all starts with the QB position. He's not going to hitch his HC career wagon to a horse that he doesn't believe will pull it. I simply cannot believe speculation that he would take the job with a condition to keep Carr under any circumstance. Kubiak has stated time and time again that DC has what it takes, and Kubiak believes that he's the coach to polish that gem. If he can't do it, then we'll have another QB around here. Of that I have no doubt.
 
Runner said:
As you say, these changes may have been made out of our sight; if they were they didn't have much effect until Kubiak came in and started leading the change step by step. The change is still slow, but hopefully it is steady in the positive direction.
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Perhaps it's because the ones he was relying on to teach him to be an NFL QB were clueless until Kubes? Maybe, just maybe, they had a negative effect on him in terms of development. Your a young guy coming out of college, your picked #1, you praised as a real good kid, your HC is considered to be an NFL defensive geniouse. So What do you do? You take everything these guys with years of NFL experience say as the utter gospel. Then when your not getting protected and beat like a pinata at a fat kids party, you start wondering what YOU are doing wrong, not that what the coaches are telling you is wrong, but what you are doing wrong. Being the good kid that you are you keep working harder and harder to do what they tell you even though you probably question it. In the end, they have screwed up you mechanics and your head. Then a new guy comes in who actually knows what the sam hill he is doing in regards to a QB, well guess what, it takes more that 2 min. on the microwave to get it done. In fact, it may never get done. It will depend on just how bad the kid has been screwed up and to me, that is pretty much a criminal thing, because he at one time was all that you could want in a rookie QB. Shame, Shame, Shame on this club if they have screwed him up so bad that Kubes can't get him recovered.
 
infantrycak said:
The thing is--take this outside of the context of Carr and consider the Capers regime...
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Double Barrel said:
I think some of y'all are forgetting the extreme crappiness of our o-line the first four seasons...
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I'm not forgetting, and I'm not saying Carr should have made himself into a pro-bowler by himself. I'm also not going to believe it was everyone else's fault and Carr should have accepted sucking because he was powerless.
 
Heres how I feel. Kubiak currently has 2 choices. He can either continue to start Carr, live through mediocre performances, and hopefully pull out a game by being conservative

OR

He can start Sage, who has more playing ability in this offense, and will probably win a few more games this year.

Whats the catch? Sage is probably at the peak of his QB career. Kubiak knows QBs, and I get the feeling that what we see from Sage is abuot as good as you could ever expect.

When Kubiak looks at Carr, I think he sees something special. I think he sees pro-bowler like potential, and that is why he's sticking with him. We've suffered for 4 years now, and I know everyone is ready to win now and win big, but Kubiak's coaching career is on the line here, and so I think he's going with Carr because he thinks the experience and confidence will mold him into our long term answer.

This guy has worked his entire life to be a head coach, has passed up opportunities in the past because he didn't like the fit, and now tha the finally has chosen one, I highly doubt someone with his level of knowledge would hitch his wagon to the wrong horse.



Lets also not forget that Dan Reeves, highly touted QB evaluator, and someone Mike Vick recently quoted in a positive light, also made an independent evalution of Carr and liked the potential.

Does it suck waiting another year for our team to be truly competitive? Yes, but at the same time, i'd rather wait a year in order to start a reign of houston than take mediocrity now and forever
 
Runner said:
I'm not forgetting, and I'm not saying Carr should have made himself into a pro-bowler by himself. I'm also not going to believe it was everyone else's fault and Carr should have accepted sucking because he was powerless.
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Not powerless....But just about....
 
Kubes has been totally supportive of DC until this interview. So, why now?

And, what is he really saying?
 
Wharton said:
Kubes has been totally supportive of DC until this interview. So, why now?

And, what is he really saying?
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It didn't sound like he was bashing Carr to me....

I really think the article was.....hmmm......fluffy?
 
I find it funny how people 'know' sage would have won. we've never seen him play 4 qtrs of the same football game time and time. maybe he deserves a chance I don't know.

My point is some qb's in the nfl are meant for back up roles. I liked what I saw from sage during the tenn. game, but could he do that starting, and for the whole game? I certainly have no idea.
 
Hulk75 said:
So his feet get out of wack because he has been hammered ever since he got here.............WoW!:yawn:

I think I will write an article on "Houston Texas is humid".
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Go get a million dollar research grant first ... then say your results are Houston has high humidity .
 
"I think he’s going to continue to get better if I get those things locked in.”

This line is from Kubiak's talk about Carr, and I find Gary's selection of words very telling, especially the two words 'think' and 'if.' Why not 'know' and 'when?'

JMO, but I believe there is a 'chink in the armor' between what Kubiak thought of David before he became HC, and what he knows now. Gary made it clear from 'day one' that it was his choice to give Carr the $8 million, not even considering the lesser option of less Texan commitment in both time and money.

Too, Kubiak stresses that Carr keeps making the same mistakes over and over again every week-why? Is this an indication that these mistakes are not ever going to get corrected? And, more important what affect do these mistakes have on the game out come?

:brickwall Is this where Gary really is with Carr? Has Kubiak established a time frame for Carr to show 'marked' improvement in these areas? Is he putting 1 player-albeit the most crucial position player on the field-ahead of the team?

Would 'benching' Carr 'light a fire' under him to correct these mistakes? The plain 'vanilla' game plan we had Sunday--obviously designed for Carr's 'psychy'--is not going to win games. Kubiak-in effect-is in a 'catch-22' dilemma because, on one hand, he's got a QB that needs to be 'unleashed' to exploit his talents but-on the other hand-is not happy with the potential 'baggage/end result' that may go with it...earn those big bucks, Kubes, and get some positive results on the field........:redtowel: :yikes:
 
Porky said:
I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try.
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That's an easy one: Vinny Testaverde

Career stats:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/70/career

Vinny had an eerily similar start to his career. First overall pick, considered a can't miss prospect. Starts out with a pathetic team and is given every opportunity to succeed because of the lack of talent around him. Turns out it wasn't the lack of talent around him that made him mediocre.....he was simply mediocre himself. Uh-oh.....
 
Runner said:
I'm not forgetting, and I'm not saying Carr should have made himself into a pro-bowler by himself. I'm also not going to believe it was everyone else's fault and Carr should have accepted sucking because he was powerless.
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Wasn't at all absolving Carr. More pointing out the lack of player development across the board under the old regime. Who got better than when they arrived here? Faggins, maybe.

xtruroyaltyx said:
Players don't overcome bad coaching...
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Yup.

Porky said:
I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB.
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Lay up--Terry Bradshaw.
 
Porky said:
Pretty fair analysis, although I might quibble a bit on the details. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have been wanting to say this since Sunday, so here goes.

If Sage had started the last two games start to finsh, this team would be 4-4, and we would be in the playoff hunt. With Carr, we are 2-6, and going nowhere. I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try. Carr has proven he will never lead this particular team anywhere. Until Kubes can be honest with himself, and forget about his ego, this team is stuck in this hellish black hole we are in.
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I would be happy to discuss this with you BUT, how and where are you getting this information... Seriously Dude, I would fly you to Vegas with that kind of insight... Sage having a one good half of football in his illustrious 6 year career? Are you kidding me? Again, for the unteenth time... He could not win the starting position in Miami whenever they were trying to give it away!!
 
TexansFanatic said:
Wow, I honestly didn't realize until just now how mediocre Bradshaw's career stats were. Hard to believe a Hall of Fame, 4 Super Bowl winning QB could have a career rating of 70.92

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/BradTe00.htm
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Many of us preach this a lot, but I think we get drowned out. Looking at a bunch of numbers in football is next to meaningless. You can't really tell how good a QB is or isn't by looking strickly at the numbers and QB rating. You have to simply watch him play, and have some experience either by years of watching, or by playing, so you can really see what is going on. That's how I form my opinions. I could care less if Carr has a rating of 140 or 40. My opinion has been formed by watching roughly 68 starts in his career.

As far as Bradshaw and Testerverde. Bradshaw's 5th year is slightly before my time, but I think this is when he really began to turn it on. Since I don't have the hindsight of watching his play in 1975, I have no choice but to turn to some numbers and he threw 18td's to only 9 picks that year. Of course, he went on to be much better than average. In Vinny's case, he lasted 5 yrs exactly as the starter in Tampa, so I will give you your due. He never was better than capable imo, but carved out a nice niche for himself, so I will just concede these two guys to y'all.

So, let me honor you guys, and say that out of the last 35 years, we have two examples out of the hundreds of starters during that time period. I think that makes my point quite nicely, thanks. :ok:
 
TexansFanatic said:
Wow, I honestly didn't realize until just now how mediocre Bradshaw's career stats were. Hard to believe a Hall of Fame, 4 Super Bowl winning QB could have a career rating of 70.92
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another prime example of a totally worthless stat. The game was different back then too. It was much more vertical and QB completion %'s were much lower than today's QBs till more of the Gillman/Walsh/Brown concepts took root in the modern passing game.

You have to actually watch a QB to see if he is any good. Stats don't translate like they do in baseball. A 350 hitter is what he is in baseball since its an individual match up. In football there are too many variables such as a billion 4 yard passes to pump up your stats.
 
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