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Somebody just needs to tell him what a TE is....he probably forgot. He saw it by Bennie Joppru's name on the roster for years and thought it meant Traumatic ExperiencesCaptainPatriot said:
There's always the chance that when the season starts and the real playbook is open some of the things we think we are struggling with will disappear. We have a coaching staff that's made some pretty drastic improvements. We may be ok.Scooter said:
Scooter when you are the #1 pick in the draft it is for a reason. I just do not buy that players of that suppossed talent level are stripped down and built up or down by coaches unless they were over hyped to begin with or their game does not transfer to speed of the NFL. You just do not forget how to play the game.Scooter said:
extremely possible. we dont know what areas they're more focusing on during preseason or how they're calling the games. it's very likely that kubiak's more comfortable with the putz & carr connection than any other area so they're focusing more on weaknesses. this week should be a bit of an indicator however because kubiak said that the staff will be treating this game much more like a regular season game from the coaching standpoint. much more preperation and studying than in previous weeks.bayoudreamn said:
honestly i think we'd be better off this year if carr were a rookie again because i feel that he really does have to be broken down & rebuilt ... as would any player who'd been taught to do things the wrong way for 4 consecutive years. not only do some areas have to be broken down (progressions, reads, movement), some have to be found again (confidance mainly - in himself, protection, & scheme). what carr's talent level then and now as the #1 means that it isnt going to take another 2-3 years to do so ... he should adapt and return to form much more quickly than a lesser talent.Kaiser Toro said:
Good argument scooter but I think this is wildly overstated from our fans. So far Carr has been nothing less than a workout warrior in his 60 NFL starts. Many of the teams problems come from the weaknesses in his game never progressing. To me he is a physical prototype with no instinct and a poor feel for the game and I pointed many of these problems out right off the bat many moons ago.....fast forward 60 starts and his weaknesses are still unimproved. I'm not sure how much coaching will be needed to get him up to speed.Scooter said:
i agree completely. what i liken him to however is jake plummer. talent without team and without coaching gets you nowhere. jake didnt progress, and arguably got worse in arizona ... being on a bad team with bad coaching puts a quarterback in limbo at best. put him in denver with fantastic coaching and good scheme, and he goes to the probowl. jake plummer didnt and doesnt have the physical talent that carr does, but coaching was able to correct the previous flaws, and develope healthy habits that made him a better player. i firmly believe carr is in the exact same situation. he now has better players around him, a better scheme to exploit his strengths, but IMO it's still going to take a little time to remove bad habits and be coached into good habits.Vinny said:
I guess we're going to find out, aren't we?Vinny said:
Something I have been thinking about: One guy plays like hell itself is chasing him and that he's got nothing to lose. And another guy plays like everything is still oke-dokey if we don't win. Both are talented. Both were on bad teams and are now on good teams. But are both guys the same from a mental standpoint? Does one guy play to win, and one guy plays NOT to lose? Does one guy see football as his only real love, and one guy sees family and faith as the real source of contentment? Cuz I gotta' tell you something: IN the NFL, it sure seems like you better have your head on a swivel come game day. You better act like you're treading through the jungle and it's survival of the fittest out there.Scooter said:
If you recall billy miller was the closest thing to a recieving TE that we had and he was david's favorite target. They hooked up often... It has only been 2 PRESEASON games give him time to adapt during the regular season im sure daniels and putzier will get plenty of balls their way.CaptainPatriot said:
Waiter, I will have the Inner Bad Arse and a coke with no ice. Call it whatever you will, but we all want to see it.gpshafer_1976 said:
sorry, i'm just being arguementative at this pointVinny said:
... carr hasnt had the chance to be as good as plummer yet. and something that everyone seems to forget is that plummer's worst season as a bronco ended up being worth 4000+ yards and 27td's. last year he went 9-1 at home and took his team to the AFC championship game (and we're going to faint over a .500 season). denver drafted cutler looking for "the next elway" (and the kid's pretty dang good whether you need a qb or not) ... a 31 year old plummer wont reach elway status even if they win the SB this year.
I agree the last game we stunk on 3rd down.Vinny said:
Get over yourself and your martyrdom of being on one side of a debate. There are plenty of folks on both sides of the Carr debate and a ton of folks in the middle who see what is going on. This continual whaaa my pee pee hurts from either extreme is tiresome.Napa Auto Parts said:
i never said that. plummer threw for more td's than int's only once in 6 years, and never crossed the 60% completion mark (carr did each in the last two years, on an expansion team coached by capers) ... both topping out with 7 wins in a season. carr is younger, a better athlete, more talented, and with more success (individually at the time). i find it very hard to believe that carr cant be improved upon significantly with the tools that he has, and with proper coaching become great.Vinny said:
Actually, hasn't he thrown to the TE's more than that but he's had the plays nullified because of penalties?CaptainPatriot said:
what I meant was Plumber had some actual production on really bad teams. He had managed to hold up to his hype to win some games on his talent even though he had obvious flaws. Plumber won some games on his arm and led some great comebacks from time to time but Carr hasn't done that. You point to more spec...more potential. Plumber had at least flashed he could hurt an NFL defense. I've only see us ride to victory on the fabled arm of David Carr on rare occasion. He lit up a bad Cowboy team on his first game, and he lit up a really bad Viking defense two years ago. There are a couple of moments outside of those two examples but it's largely been 58 games of the same ol' same ol.Scooter said:
Vinny said:
Vinny said:
I'm still not sure how I was supposed to answer that post. 11 of those games had one TD or less. I just had to laugh.Napa Auto Parts said:just admit it Vinny your a david carr basher and you have no one to blame but yourself. may be if you had lower expectations of him it wouldnt bother you.
and we've made our way back to the origional post. now we have kubiak and tight ends. can you honestly fault the quarterback if he throws for 60% or better and 250+ yards, but only winds up with 1TD? playcalling, drops, and an innefective redzone run game are the obvious culprits ... to me atleast. our TE's had ZERO touchdowns last season, and only 1 touchdown in 04 that i can find. i will not blame david carr for that fact. before you say anything, our leading TE last season was rivers (about #6 on the depth chart if he tried out for this team) and the year before was miller ... who despite being a fan favorite, hasnt found a home since the texans. tight ends are redzone gold if you've got them, however carr was trained to find the backs instead, and even when he did look for the TE, they couldnt catch what hit them in the chest.Vinny said:
I did some research on Plummer....listed below is every game Plummer played in with the Cardinals that they won...look at all of those games with one TD or less...22 games out of 32 he threw 1 TD or less...Vinny said:
I find taking a toothbrush to my tongue helps with that.infantrycak said:
No doubt...No offense but people who post stats as 'proof' a guy can play have no clue to begin with. Football is not a game like baseball where you can look at a stat line and determine the talent of skills of a player. Just posting a ton of stats and saying a guy is this or that is folly and borderline amusing imo.Kaiser Toro said:
I was just responding to your post laughing at me because you said 11 of the 15 games I posted of Carr's only had 1 or less TD passes thrown so I posted all of Plummer's games, which most had 1 TD pass or less as well. I am not trying to convey that a stat line is a tell all for NFL players, or that the stats I posted automatically make Carr a Pro Bowl QB, but if you think they have no bearing on a player's ability why pick out one ceratin stat out of the stat lines I posted and laugh at it?Vinny said:
I found that equally as weak...and I also stated I didn't think Plumber was worth much either since I stated earlier in the thread that the Broncos thought he was so great that they drafted a QB in the first round to replace him....but IF YOU WATCH HIM PLAY you can see some intangibles. You can't see intangibles or a nice pass into the second level or splitting the seam in a cover two zone with 11-21 1TD as an example. Eight hitch passes look the same as 8 passes downfield on a stat line.texan279 said:
Using the same logic, the Texans and Kubiak must think Carr is worth a lot. Seeing that they gave him the big bonus and bypassed all of the 1st round QBs. Right?Vinny said:
I understand that and posted earlier in the thread that a stat line and Plummer leading comebacks, making nice throws, etc. have nothing to do with one another. My original reasponse was to your previous thread when you said we have rarely ridden Carr's arm to a win or Carr has never or rarely led a comeback (cannot remember verbatum). My point of posting Carr's stats in those 15 games was because I considered those games "good" games for a QB, over 55% completion percentage in all the games and more TD passes than INT's and most of those games we lost. For the majority of our last four seasons we had to play catch up in games, but it's hard to lead come from behind wins with bad coaching, a bad offensive line, no TE's, a defense that lets opposing offenses score at will, and only one real threat at WR, especially when opposing defenses know you are going to pass and just bring the house everytime. Or in the rare instance we did have a lead, Capers would sit on it and expect our horrible defense to try to prevent opposing offenses from scoring. I'm not saying Carr is a pro bowl QB, IMO at this point he is an average QB, whether it be from poor coaching the last 4 seasons, lack of talent around him, or being sacked record numbers of times, or whatever. Like I told KT earlier, I am giving him one season, maybe one and a half seasons to live up to expectations, and that is only because of the new coaches, new schemes, and the new players added, but I am giving the entire team a clean slate, although some probably won't agree with me on that. Sorry if this post went trailing off, I just kept having thoughts pop into my head and I am going on no sleep right now.Vinny said:
Stats don't play near as much of a role as in baseball but they aren't useless either. IMO they are readily used to counter many miconceptions which arise--DD too small, Ryans too small, identifying what is or is not out of norm for the league for dropped passes, balls batted down, etc. Football players can't be judged by a stat line, but stats can refine and knock the edges off impressions from watching the games.Vinny said:
lol...I guess he reminds me of a plumber when he plays. Stats have their place but you can't tell 8 hitch passes with yac from 8 good plays down the field beating a solid defense. You can also "give" a QB the underneath and that just artificially pumps up his ratings...all worthless stuff when it comes to breaking down the realities of their games. Just look at Jon Wells. Half the board here thought he was as talented as Dom Davis...based on comparable stats. Funny how not a single team in the NFL thought he was even worth bringing into camp.infantrycak said:
Vinny said:
's on any type of reasonable/sensible level, but IMO it's impossible. Why? To them (and some have even posted as such), this is Carr's first 'real' year because he was 'screwed' so bad his first 4 yrs by everything/anything so they don't count.
