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Some surprises today

B

blockhead83

Rookie
I was really pleasantly surprised by the Texans D, who played similar to the squad we fielded in our inaugural season. They got some pressure, created some turn overs, and didn't allow the big (well atleast not the really big) play. DRob got his 3rd INT of the season, and Babin was creating alot of pressure. Comparing what I saw out of Babin and Peek today, Babin clearly was causing more havoc than #98. Nice to see him performing at a high level. And how about shutting down the AFC's leading rusher? I think our DLine finally performed how we thought they would coming into the season.

Also, Gaffney is a very reliable receiver now. Carr threw up a ball that looked more intended for Woolfolk than Gaffney, but Gaffney read the play like a vet and turned it into 6 points for the good guys. He also caught the back of the ball on a deep sideline pass. Our receiving corp is dangerous when they have time to get open.
 
Peek was getting in the back field but he couldn't get around his blocker. It seemed the blocker always had him pushed behind the QB while Babin seemed to be getting inside of his blocker and being able to spin and get much closer to McNair then I saw Peek get.
 
Thats a stupid thing to say. Peek had his speed rush up the field and them around the lineman twice, but steve got rid of it a split second before he got there. And babin may have gotten close but he fell down everytime before he could make the play. Also, how many tackles did babin have? babin also had the luxury of getting his pressure after running some stunts where he came in through the middle of the line after the DT and the ILB. Also, if you remember the time Babin was out left covering a Receiver on a run play, he couldnt get off the block of the receiver to come and make a tackle. Convenient you missed those plays in your observations
 
You must have missed the plays when Peek's blocker had him about 5 feet behind McNair. And the only 2 sacks Peek has this year were on blitzes when he came in untouched. I never saw Peek get around a blocker.
 
georgewashington said:
Thats a stupid thing to say. Peek had his speed rush up the field and them around the lineman twice, but steve got rid of it a split second before he got there. And babin may have gotten close but he fell down everytime before he could make the play. Also, how many tackles did babin have? babin also had the luxury of getting his pressure after running some stunts where he came in through the middle of the line after the DT and the ILB. Also, if you remember the time Babin was out left covering a Receiver on a run play, he couldnt get off the block of the receiver to come and make a tackle. Convenient you missed those plays in your observations
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You should change your sign on name to Peek's agent. Frankly I like Peek a lot and have been wanting to get him into play more, but that doesn't justify slanted interpretation of what Babin has done. From what I could see, Babin got a lot of pressure today (have to look back at the DVR to confirm that but initial impression) and last week against MN, he would have had 4-6 sacks but for refs that don't know what a holding call is (how many NFL games do you know of without a single holding call made in regulation?). I am impressed with both Peek and Babin. No reason to run either down to try to justify the other.
 
Just to clarify I'm not trying to say Peek's not doing a good job. Just trying to say that today I saw McNair running from Babin more often than he was running from Peek (although Babin had more PT).
 
I didn't realize that this was a Babin vs Peek thread. :popcorn:

I was suprised with Wong's INT, a one hand grab. It was very impressive. (I think McNair was amazed also by the way he was shaking his head when he went to the sidelines).

Also pleasantly suprised by Jabar's Td catch, I think make breaks on the ball like that shows how he is maturing into a Veteran receiver.
 
Honestly, Wong has been impressing me since the beginning of the season. Maybe I've been watching him more than anyone else but man he's taken a big step.
 
V Man said:
I didn't realize that this was a Babin vs Peek thread. :popcorn:

I was suprised with Wong's INT, a one hand grab. It was very impressive. (I think McNair was amazed also by the way he was shaking his head when he went to the sidelines).

Also pleasantly suprised by Jabar's Td catch, I think make breaks on the ball like that shows how he is maturing into a Veteran receiver.
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Ok.. but the BEST catch of the day was Armstrong in the end zone with the adjustment to prevent the int! that was AWESOME> :headbang:
 
And Jason Simmons, although he hurt himself in the process, put the lick of the year on Chris Brown.
 
Dime said:
Ok.. but the BEST catch of the day was Armstrong in the end zone with the adjustment to prevent the int! that was AWESOME> :headbang:
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Wasn't that Gaffney or was there another play I wasn't aware of? Seriously
 
it was Gaffney :).. which was awesome.. though I wish it would have been Johnson.. I could have used the FFL points :)
 
What if the Texans dropped either Peek or Babin into Defensive end and the other stayed at line backer.
 
maybe if we were running a 4-3.. but in a 3-4 you have to have big linemen.

Babin and Peek are both too small for a 3-4 lineman.
 
Doug said:
Honestly, Wong has been impressing me since the beginning of the season. Maybe I've been watching him more than anyone else but man he's taken a big step.
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I'm with you Doug: I to think Wong has really played well this season and all of this talk 'bout Babin & Peek being our outside backers at some point in time - well I think we better make sure we hang on to Wong and then figure out whether Babin or Peek should play the remaining outside backer position.
But on the subject of outside backers in the 3-4, lets not use anymore 1st
round picks on these guys. Wong, Peek, & Babin were all DEs in college who
converted to LB in the pros. Another one we got this year was Anderson from
Mississippi - he was a 6th round pick ! There's gobs & gobs of these tweeners
in college that end up as OLBs in the NFL - that's supposed to be one of the attractions of the 3-4, it's cap friendly because you can fill some positions with lower draft picks.
 
done88 said:
What if the Texans dropped either Peek or Babin into Defensive end and the other stayed at line backer.
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We get steamrolled on the run. In a 3-4 you have 3 men taking on 5 lineman. You need big 300 pounders in the line taking up blocks for the linebackers. The OLB's ARE our devensive ends in essence because they provide the rush that you lose by not having conventional ends. The 3-4 linemen are all Tackles when you get right down to it.
 
georgewashington said:
Thats a stupid thing to say. Peek had his speed rush up the field and them around the lineman twice, but steve got rid of it a split second before he got there. And babin may have gotten close but he fell down everytime before he could make the play. Also, how many tackles did babin have? babin also had the luxury of getting his pressure after running some stunts where he came in through the middle of the line after the DT and the ILB. Also, if you remember the time Babin was out left covering a Receiver on a run play, he couldnt get off the block of the receiver to come and make a tackle. Convenient you missed those plays in your observations
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convenient you are insanley biased in your "observations". the only time i saw babin fall was on his near sack of mcnair. im watching babin specifically now for two reasons 1. i understand LB's bettter than DB's (so babin instead of dunta) and 2. to try and bring sense to threads like this. so babin having the ability to bull rush through TE/T with 4.6 speed and get right in mcnair's face by spinning to flush him is WORSE than peek just running upfield around the pocket "creating pressure"? i didn't get one inkling of indication that mcnair was at all concerned of peek and where he was coming from because he was an OLman's dream, takes himself past the the QB and isn't strong/big enough to get back upfield. but there are at least 3 plays where jason said "hello steve", two inside spins and the almost sack. and don't give me this "babin gets more reps" ****, weren't you the one arguing that peek does SO much more with his PT than babin? well, he didn't do much yesterday......
 
Doug said:
Wasn't that Gaffney or was there another play I wasn't aware of? Seriously
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Your right... It was another play Armstrong made I liked too... but the one I was speaking of was Gaffney... dang good play.
 
done88 said:
What if the Texans dropped either Peek or Babin into Defensive end and the other stayed at line backer.
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They aren't stout enough in a base 3-4.

I expected them to do this ... on nickle. With 5 DBs, they put the OLBs as rush ends, with Walker and Smith as DTs (generally). That leaves Wong and Foreman as the only LBs. I thought they might have Wong play Foreman's spot and have Peek play right rush end. I haven't noticed it though, this year.

One thing the Texans like to do, I believe, is to switch from the 3-4 to 4-3, but to maximize the confusion on the offense, they don't change personal. They have Babin put his hand down and play LDE, with Walker and Payne as DTs and Smith as RDE. This leaves Wong as ROLB, Sharper as LOLB ans Foreman in the middle. Having Babin, Walker and Sharper coming off the one side puts a lot of pressure on the protection.

I think sliding from a 3-4 to a 4-3 does add confusion to the O-line, but they can't use it as an opportunity to sub in Peek.
 
insanely biased? look at the stats, babin was given credit for one tackle. and in terms of speed, babin is 4.6 peek is 4.5. in terms of size peek is 250, the same as wong, and babin is 259. Im pretty sure these stats show there is no real difference in body types and their strengths are comparable when looking at rookie combine numbers. so i think that peek has stuff other than speed rushes, including a bull rush with some spins. Convenient that you forget his production last year, where he had good pass rush. So my bias may be to peek but dont kid yourself about yours to babin. so you may want to re-play your film back and watch babins lack of pursuit when the ball isnt near him, and also count how many times he is either pancaked, falls down by being pushed, or falls down on his own. he may become very good in the future but dont kid yourself about his great play right now, one tackle is not great play. he did rush steve on the one pass, that he should have had a sack on if he didnt fall, but in terms of him closing the pocket a lot better than peek, thats untrue
 
Babin's impressed me consistently thus far this season with his pursuit, sideline to sideline. And as for him falling down on what would have been a sack, it's because one of the other pursuing Texans ran into him, knocking him down. And he still got hold of McNair's foot, disrupting the pass. :)
 
Hey georgewashington this is a quote from you from another thread about Babin...
I am glad someone else has noticed these things. The spin move is so ineffective.
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But on this post you write
so i think that peek has stuff other than speed rushes, including a bull rush with some spins.
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So you are saying Peek is the only player in the NFL who can successfully pull off a spin move? And by the way I am not trying to be a smart *****, I am just trying to understand what you mean exactly.
 
no my point is that he has the foot work ability to use the spin without falling, babin tries the spin almost every play and it has produced nothing when he uses it. He is successful with the bull rush, where he has collapsed the pocket, but he doesnt get off of the block when its time to make tackles. And when you watch babin do spins, he gets pushed over quite often. Someone else pointed out that he does spin moves way too much and they dont work. spin moves are effective when you work up the field and spin back inside, or you have to go straight inside and spin up. Babin goes in the middle and either has spun up too high or he spins right into the guard. but more than that its the lack of getting off of blocks, such as the wideout yesterday where he couldnt make a tackle coming in from outside on the left. there just seems to be a lack of hand and footwork. that is not something that is learned by playing time. taht is something developed in college that he should have. and also, speed is different than quickness, babin may have a 4.6, but that doesnt mean he is quick enough to react to things, both with his feet and hands.
 
and also, i am not saying peek is the only one who can pull of a spin move, im not saying he is a perfect player. i am saying that based on play so far babin has not shown me any reason to believe that he should have been a first rounder, nor that he should be seen as playing so great this season.
 
georgewashington said:
that is not something that is learned by playing time. taht is something developed in college that he should have
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wow, another blatantly wrong statement. so what exactly CAN babin improve on through experiance?

georgewashington said:
and also, i am not saying peek is the only one who can pull of a spin move, im not saying he is a perfect player. i am saying that based on play so far babin has not shown me any reason to believe that he should have been a first rounder, nor that he should be seen as playing so great this season.
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i don't think you understand, jason babin has only played 6 games as an OLB, played solid for a rook and you take all that for granted because he's not lawernce taylor. but the icing on the cake is you think a very raw talent (in peek) who coming is coming along at a much slower rate in 2 years than babin in 6 games, should start ahead of him. if i come across as babin biased it's only because im trying to emphasize what i feel is obvious, babin is a better everydown OLB than peek.
 
georgewashington said:
He is successful with the bull rush, where he has collapsed the pocket, but he doesnt get off of the block when its time to make tackles. And when you watch babin do spins, he gets pushed over quite often.
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OK George, I'm duly impressed with your knowledge of the nuances of pass
rushing techniques. So, what's your assessment of Babin at this point in time:
(A) has the potential to be a standout OLB in our system and is worth the #1
pick we invested in him - just a huge transition from W.Michigan and will take
some time (1 season, 2 seasons, or > 2 seasons) to develope
(B) Will play and start for us but is average and we overpaid for him
(C) Is a dud - not even worth a second day pick
(D) Too soon to determine what kind of contribution, if any, he will make for us
(E) Something else
 
nunusguy i would say that babin will play and start for us but its way too early to tell what he will do. the problem is that too many times teams gamble on players for that one small chance he will be amazing. Ryan Leaf for the chargers, the bengals years ago picked akili smith over culpepper and mcnabb, we will see what happens with the texans picking bennie. my point is that he has done nothing spectacular. and my point all along is that im tired of hearing him being touted as the second coming when he really hasnt done anything special. my other point is that by people saying peek "is coming along at a MUCH slower rate" is very inaccurate. how many plays did he screw up in this weekend? none, so how is that bad play. he is a good player that is going to be great whether it is with the texans or not, cuz if he doesnt get used by next year, he is a free agent that will be wanted by someone else. believe it or not many people projected him going a lot earlier than he did, some even had teams picking him late first round, early second. his motor is also high speed and he is pure intensity.
 
i would also like to point out that many have commented on babins weakness in pass coverage. unfortunately that is just as meaningful to a linebacker as run stopping. i think peek is better in coverage, so maybe that brings the playing field of the two closer together.
 
Another Suprise TODAY (MONDAY) is the Astros won tonight 3-0,,, homer in bottom of the ninth by Kent !!! Killer Bees BABY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
georgewashington said:
nunusguy i would say that babin will play and start for us but its way too early to tell what he will do. the problem is that too many times teams gamble on players for that one small chance he will be amazing. Ryan Leaf for the chargers, the bengals years ago picked akili smith over culpepper and mcnabb, we will see what happens with the texans picking bennie. my point is that he has done nothing spectacular. and my point all along is that im tired of hearing him being touted as the second coming when he really hasnt done anything special.
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I like your analysis and agree with much of it. Babin has made some good plays, but he has also screwed up miserably at time. But true, he really has done nothing spectacular which implies(maybe) that he doesn't have the potential that, say a Dunta Robinson has, who is obviously an outstanding athelete & hard-hitting tackler who has been spectacular at times. I dunno, maybe that's the difference between a high first round pick and low first round pick ?
Almost as interesting to me is the organizations lack of support for Peek -
if they thought he had the kind of potential you do (and they had all of last year to observe and work with him), they would never have gone after Babin in the draft like they did.
One thing I take exception with you on - Bennie. His injury(s) were jsut unfortunate events, and since he has no history of this from college, no one can be blamed. So it's really impossible to judge the Texans' wisdom of that choice.
 
I agree that bennie was not a bad pick, im just saying that sometimes picks dont come out as well as they were expected. and i agree about the lack of support for peek. he was praised all training camp this year about how much he improved over the offseason and how much better he was looking. there was even talk about him pushing babin for the starting spot. its funny how all of that talk died and how they could go from such high regards for him to not mentioning him. if they dont start using him soon he is going to start packing his bags for free agency, because many teams were interested in getting him last year.
 
georgewashington said:
there was even talk about him pushing babin for the starting spot. its funny how all of that talk died and how they could go from such high regards for him to not mentioning him. if they dont start using him soon he is going to start packing his bags for free agency, because many teams were interested in getting him last year.
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He was always on the weak side. Babin plays the strong side. They play different positions.

Also, it takes the third year for most 3-4 OLB's to fully develop from the draft because they are all College ends converting to playing in space. Most of the great Steeler OLB's didn't start getting starting jobs till their second seasons. Most agree that OLB conversions are usually fully developed and have enough understanding to optimize their potential by their third season. Babin is in year one. Peek in year two. Have some patience.
 
play different positions? have you watched who peek has come in to play for, babin. he has only come in for wong once and that was this week when he got hurt. he is on the depth chart as playing behind wong, but he has also been the only sub for babin.
 
If you want to get Peek on the field for edge speed and situational rushing the best OLB combo is Peek - Wong right now, that is why he comes in for Babin then. Speed off the edge is Peek's game. Babin plays the strong side because he can stop the run as well as the pass. You won't catch Peek replacing Babin during many running downs.
 
i believe he was in there on a few 1st and second downs, he also replaced babin in KC. I think he knows how to play the position. He is the backup to both sides.
 
Not too beat a dead horse, but i found it interesting in looking at the stats that Babin only has 4 assists in tackles. To me that shows a lack of pursuit. Maybe im wrong but when you see the other three linebackers with assists in the teens, that shows they are pursuing and making group tackles.
 
Gaffney used to have tons of trolls when he was a rookie. We actually had posts from people wanting him CUT!! Not every rookie can come in and lead their team. It takes time and patience.
 
there is a difference between leading a team and being around the tackles. 4 assists is not what a linebacker should have. He has less that one of the defensive tackles!
 
i found it interesting in looking at the stats that Babin only has 4 assists in tackles. To me that shows a lack of pursuit. Maybe im wrong but when you see the other three linebackers with assists in the teens, that shows they are pursuing and making group tackles.
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Review of the game tape helps in situations like this. Sometimes the stat sheet doesn't tell much of the story.

I just ran tape into the 4th quarter again with focus on Babin and it's pretty obvious why he had a low number of tackles and/or assists. Some things don't show up on stat sheets but there are a few clues in the gamebook as to his low number of tackles/assists that can be confirmed by watching the game tape. The titans ran his way twice - maybe three times. When the titans run off guard or even off-tackle right, Babin is playing outside contain and is not trying to defeat his block to the inside. If he does that, there's a risk (when C Brown is in the game at least) that he gets outside - the Cardinal Sin for the OLB.

From what I could see, Babin did fine on run support except for one play (6:58 mark of 2nd qtr) where he bit right on his key (FB Holcombe 35) and got caught up in traffic before he was able to recover contain left. If he would have recognized the misdirection and stayed home, he could have had a tackle for a loss. Simmons and Coleman came up and made the play which was a 3 yd gain by C Brown. Even into the 4th quarter, it appears that Babin did a good job on contain on off-tackle right. That's most likely his primary assignment.

His biggest challenge appears to be defeating blockers in pass rush situations. He needs to shed better. He did a good job hurrying McNair twice with strong outside rushes (beating Miller around the edge when there was no TE or FB) and once on an inside stunt at around the 7:00 mark in the 3rd but in many cases (in the first half especially) he was getting double teamed and stopped in his tracks. I saw one case where he couldn't beat Miller one-on-one with a series of moves as McNair moved around in the pocket. As the game went on, I saw Babin apply good pressure even though he didn't get his hands on McN. Peek came in for Babin a few times late in the 3rd and early 4th. He did nothing good - nothing bad. He seemed to have trouble with Miller one-on-one as well.

One of Babin's assists came on a play where he was lined up against Berlin in the slot receiver but he recognized run and came up to help stop Antowain.

All in all I think Babin held his own - at least into the 4th quarter. He didn't make any mistakes but he didn't make any big plays either. He's only played the position for 6 games in his life. I think he's still focusing on fundamentals now and his assignment, i.e., the playbook is running through his head when he comes up to the line. As he gets more experience, he will rely more on instincts than thinking about what he's supposed to do. Now if Peek only had a playbook ...
 
awesome post aj.

something i'd like to add about babin goes back to the vikings game......if u watch the tape and specifically the first half you'll find babin caused awesome havoc in the game. i believe he got 1 sack but was within a step or a fraction of a second away from having 2-3 more sacks. it seemed the texans pretty much unleashed him on the qb...i cant recall more then a handfull of plays in wich he went into coverage.

going back to the kc game it was apparent to me the chiefs were determined to run at babin...and babin had a poor game. but he is improving as evidenced by the vikings and titans not running to his side nearly as often. sometimes its easiest to see how a player is doing by watching wether or not a team ------an offensive coordinator------has specifically picked him out to take advantage of him.
 
thats a stupid comment, the chiefs ran at him and he played terrible and was pulled. how would that game make the vikings and titans afraid of him? i doubt that anyone in the NFL is afraid of running at him. I am sure they would much rather run at wong who makes ridiculous plays every game right? why is it also the other teams always run their draws and bootlegs to his side? cuz he bites on them
 
why is it also the other teams always run their draws and bootlegs to his side? cuz he bites on them
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Maybe it's because the majority of QB's in the NFL are right handed. Have you ever tried running to YOUR LEFT (Wong's side) and throw? Not easy at all.
 
actually good quarterbacks do roll out to both sides, because it is unexpected. Ever watch games with Garcia and Plummer, mobile quarter backs use their feet to get them into position to make plays then they throw.
 
georgewashington said:
thats a stupid comment, the chiefs ran at him and he played terrible and was pulled. how would that game make the vikings and titans afraid of him? i doubt that anyone in the NFL is afraid of running at him. I am sure they would much rather run at wong who makes ridiculous plays every game right? why is it also the other teams always run their draws and bootlegs to his side? cuz he bites on them
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Ok after reading this thread a few times I think I'm ready to try out for linebacker ... I know exactly what to do and not to do ..... I want you George to be my agent if you're not to busy with Peek ... I'm a bit out of shape but what the heck ..... let's see ...... don't fall down, don't bull rush every play, don't bite on run fakes but make sure I pursue, .... awww forget it, that's way too much to remember ... I'll stick to drinking beer and yelling during the game ....
 
actually good quarterbacks do roll out to both sides, because it is unexpected. Ever watch games with Garcia and Plummer, mobile quarter backs use their feet to get them into position to make plays then they throw.
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I didn't say it was impossible, but it is as hard as hell to do it accurately.
 
is it a stupid comment?

teams make in game adjustments throughout the game and as long as babin plays his assignments well...teams will stray and look for other weaknesses.
babin had an awesome 1st half against minnesota. the vikes adjusted. the titans saw the tape. sometimes his assignment is a wide blitz or contain...they're not running at him as much as they are running inside him...ie the de on that side. lets not forget that a good portion of the time the right side is the strong side and when teams run outside they tend to run that way more often then not...

and its pretty much common knowledge most quarterbacks throw better going to the right if theyre right handed.

how stupid is that?
 
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