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In case you were starting to doubt him

TexansSeminole

TexansSeminole

Hall of Fame
We're down 7 in the second quarter to the Colts. During the Colts last drive, Shantee Orr stripped Manning and Morlon Greenwood recovered.

But, on the very next play Carr was intercepted by Nick Harper, throwing toward Bradford.

Manning drove down the field with a 12 yard pass and a 31 yard touchdown pass.

HOU 0 IND 14

Indianapolis Colts at 11:22
D.Rayner kicks 67 yards from IND 30 to HST 3. J.Mathis to HST 21 for 18 yards (G.Sapp).
Houston Texans at 11:13
1-10-HOU21 (11:13) D.Davis right end to HST 18 for -3 yards (M.Reagor).
2-13-HOU18 (10:36) D.Davis up the middle to HST 17 for -1 yards (R.Brock).
3-14-HOU17 (10:06) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 33 for 16 yards (G.Brackett). (3 yards after catch.)
1-10-HOU33 (9:28) D.Davis left tackle to HST 44 for 11 yards (M.Doss, B.Sanders).
1-10-HOU44 (8:48) D.Davis left guard to HST 48 for 4 yards (Da.Reid).
2-6-HOU48 (8:12) D.Davis right guard to IND 41 for 11 yards (D.Freeney).IND-B.Sanders was injured during the play.
1-10-IND41 (7:38) PENALTY on IND-M.Reagor, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at IND 41 - No Play.
1-5-IND36 (7:27) D.Davis left guard to IND 34 for 2 yards (C.Simon).
2-3-IND34 (6:54) D.Davis left end ran ob at IND 34 for no gain (C.June).
3-3-IND34 (6:24) D.Davis up the middle to IND 33 for 1 yard (D.Thornton, M.Reagor).
4-2-IND33 (5:44) D.Carr left end ran ob at IND 27 for 6 yards (G.Sapp).
1-10-IND27 (5:21) D.Carr left end to IND 15 for 12 yards (G.Sapp).
1-10-IND15 (4:35) D.Davis right guard to IND 13 for 2 yards (D.Thornton).
2-8-IND13 (3:57) D.Davis up the middle to IND 8 for 5 yards (G.Sapp).
3-3-IND8 (3:21) D.Davis left end for 8 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
K.Brown extra point is GOOD, Center-B.Pittman, Holder-C.Stanley.
PENALTY on IND, Defensive 12 On-field, 5 yards, enforced between downs.
IND 14 HOU 7, Plays: 14 Yards: 79 Possession: 8:07.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20051023_IND@HOU

All i can do is shake my head at Dom Capers when i remember this.

And after that:

Houston Texans at 03:15
K.Brown kicks 65 yards from HST 35 to end zone, Touchback.
Indianapolis Colts at 03:15
1-10-IND20 (3:15) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass intended for B.Stokley INTERCEPTED by D.Robinson at IND 35. D.Robinson to IND 34 for 1 yard (B.Stokley).
Houston Texans at 03:08
1-10-IND34 (3:08) D.Davis up the middle to IND 31 for 3 yards (G.Brackett, R.Brock).
2-7-IND31 (2:27) D.Davis right tackle to IND 30 for 1 yard (D.Freeney).
3-6-IND30 (2:00) (Shotgun) D.Carr right end to IND 21 for 9 yards (N.Harper).
1-10-IND21 (1:19) D.Davis right guard to IND 12 for 9 yards (C.June).
2-1-IND12 (:43) D.Davis up the middle to IND 8 for 4 yards (G.Sapp).
1-8-IND8 (:37) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney for 8 yards, TOUCHDOWN. (3 yards after catch.)
K.Brown extra point is GOOD, Center-B.Pittman, Holder-C.Stanley.
IND 14 HOU 14, Plays: 6 Yards: 34 Possession: 2:38.

Its amazing how much Capers used DD
 
The player that was used 71% in two straight drives. It just seems to me that some people might have forgotton what a great back he is.
 
TexansSeminole said:
The player that was used 71% in two straight drives. It just seems to me that some people might have forgotton what a great back he is.
Click to expand...

Just because he is used a lot does not make him great. I have said it once and will say it again, Davis is a good, not great back. In the game you posted he had a whooping 98 yards on 28 carries for a whopping 3.5 YPC.
 
On the first drive you posted he ran 11 times for 29 yards, and the second drive 4 carries for 17 yards, I guess we should watch out here comes the next Earl Campbell...
 
TexansSeminole said:
Look at the play calling...look how many times he got ran in a row. Sometimes 4 times in a row. Thats the point.
Click to expand...

But you called him a great back...
 
TexansSeminole said:
Thats because he is :ok:
Click to expand...

Not trying to dis your opinion, but to me a great back is a Priest Holmes, LaDanian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Edge James, or Clinton Portis. I just cannot put Davis into the same class of running back as these guys are in, and I do not think he will ever make it into that class IMO. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Davis sucks, I think he is a good running back, just not a great one.
 
texan279 said:
Not trying to dis your opinion, but to me a great back is a Priest Holmes, LaDanian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Edge James, or Clinton Portis. I just cannot put Davis into the same class of running back as these guys are in, and I do not think he will ever make it into that class IMO. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Davis sucks, I think he is a good running back, just not a great one.
Click to expand...

He'll be a great back when he can accomplish what these guy's can for a FULL year. Until he can withhold the every down pounding of the NFL, he'll just be average. Don't get me wrong, I like him, but I think we need a faster and more durable back.:twocents:
 
DD has been a good value, but the jury is still out on whether he can be a true feature back on a playoff caliber team. Time will tell, and the time is soon to be here.
 
texan279 said:
But you called him a great back...
Click to expand...


The point is that ANY defense could keep a back down on yardage if they ran it 4 times in a row (and especially the fact that they KNEW we were gonna run it) and as much as we did.

The essence of the defense is to make an offense one-dimensional, usually by stopping the run game and forcing the other team to pass, and to aggressively attack the one-dimension that the team has left. If the offense is already essentially doing that for you, then that takes away half of the defense's job right there.
 
TheCD said:
The point is that ANY defense could keep a back down on yardage if they ran it 4 times in a row (and especially the fact that they KNEW we were gonna run it) and as much as we did.

The essence of the defense is to make an offense one-dimensional, usually by stopping the run game and forcing the other team to pass, and to aggressively attack the one-dimension that the team has left. If the offense is already essentially doing that for you, then that takes away half of the defense's job right there.
Click to expand...


Who are you? This is an insightful, lucid arguement. I agree with you.

Can you go a step further and say that BECAUSE the Texans offence sucked with the predictable result of 3 downs and out... that our defense lived on the field and by the 3rd game of the season our opponnents had 6 games "worth" of Texans defensive film to study?
 
TheCD said:
The point is that ANY defense could keep a back down on yardage if they ran it 4 times in a row (and especially the fact that they KNEW we were gonna run it) and as much as we did.

The essence of the defense is to make an offense one-dimensional, usually by stopping the run game and forcing the other team to pass, and to aggressively attack the one-dimension that the team has left. If the offense is already essentially doing that for you, then that takes away half of the defense's job right there.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but last season we ran 437 rushing plays and 449 pass plays, so that is pretty much 50/50, so I don't understand the one dimensional angle.
 
texan279 said:
Sorry, but last season we ran 437 rushing plays and 449 pass plays, so that is pretty much 50/50, so I don't understand the one dimensional angle.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see that broken down by quarters. Teams tend to pass a lot in the second half when they are down by 10+ points.
 
DD is a good back...He's not exceptional.....I am a huge DD critic, but I think that with a good team around him he can definitely excell...He'll never be the type of back that can create things for himself..i.e, Tomlinson, Holmes, Barber, Bush...No I'm not saying he can't break tackles or make guys miss, because that would be ludicrous...What starting back in the leauge hasn't made someone miss or broken a tackle...BUT, the great backs can do one or the other exceptionaly well...With DD's lack of breakaway speed, average agility, and average tackle breaking ability, IMO ability wise he will never be a top ten back...Of course he can get the job done, but in order for him to be exceptional, he needs exceptional players around him...
 
TheOgre said:
I'd like to see that broken down by quarters. Teams tend to pass a lot in the second half when they are down by 10+ points.
Click to expand...

Most teams, Capers didn't though from what I remember, I may be wrong though.
 
I don't understand why some label DD as great...IMO, ability wise he's average all around...
 
texan279 said:
Sorry, but last season we ran 437 rushing plays and 449 pass plays, so that is pretty much 50/50, so I don't understand the one dimensional angle.
Click to expand...


The point being made was not based on the season. It was based on the quarters/game. The season stats have no relavency to a defense who is facing a team that is obviously, at the current point in time, running the ball 70+% of the time.


And if you don't understand the one-dimensional angle, talk to a coach or look up basic defensive strategies. It is the most basic element of the defense. Obviously, if your opponent is only doing one thing, it is much easier to defend against that particular element. Thus, if you break them down and make them one dimensional, it is much easier to assure that you will have success.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I don't understand why some label DD as great...IMO, ability wise he's average all around...
Click to expand...

Umm, he's great because he accomplished all he did on a very, very young team just a few years removed from its inaugural season.
 
TheCD said:
The point being made was not based on the season. It was based on the quarters/game. The season stats have no relavency to a defense who is facing a team that is obviously, at the current point in time, running the ball 70+% of the time.


And if you don't understand the one-dimensional angle, talk to a coach or look up basic defensive strategies. It is the most basic element of the defense. Obviously, if your opponent is only doing one thing, it is much easier to defend against that particular element. Thus, if you break them down and make them one dimensional, it is much easier to assure that you will have success.
Click to expand...

If we were running the ball 70% of the at current points and times in the season, it would reflect on the stats at the end of the season. DD ran the ball 55 times in the 1st quarter, 73 times in the second quarter, 56 times in the third quarter, and 44 times in the fourth quarter. Carr threw the ball 74 times in the 1st quarter, 135 times in the second quarter, 113 times in the third quarter, and 98 times in the fourth quarter, I am not seeing where we ran the ball 70% of the time....
 
texan279 said:
If we were running the ball 70% of the at current points and times in the season, it would reflect on the stats at the end of the season. DD ran the ball 55 times in the 1st quarter, 73 times in the second quarter, 56 times in the third quarter, and 44 times in the fourth quarter. Carr threw the ball 74 times in the 1st quarter, 135 times in the second quarter, 113 times in the third quarter, and 98 times in the fourth quarter, I am not seeing where we ran the ball 70% of the time....
Click to expand...


Sssh, try not to throw too many facts at them. You have to undertand, DD and Carr are both great, we just can't see it.
 
Great, may be over stateing any of players right now, but DD has gotten us a 1000 yards a year ( okay almost 1000 last year ) and that has been the bench mark for as long as I can remember to being a very good back, not great, but certainly better than 60% of the backs out there.
Disclaimer: The opinions stated on this message is just that, my opinion, and are based solely on the hope that the Texans will kick some tail this year.
 
srstex said:
Great, may be over stateing any of players right now, but DD has gotten us a 1000 yards a year ( okay almost 1000 last year ) and that has been the bench mark for as long as I can remember to being a very good back, not great, but certainly better than 60% of the backs out there.
Disclaimer: The opinions stated on this message is just that, my opinion, and are based solely on the hope that the Texans will kick some tail this year.
Click to expand...

1200 yards rushing is the new 1000 yards rushing in the NFL. And FYI, there were 16 backs that rushed for 1000 yards last season, that is half of the starting backs in the NFL.
 
texan279 said:
If we were running the ball 70% of the at current points and times in the season, it would reflect on the stats at the end of the season. DD ran the ball 55 times in the 1st quarter, 73 times in the second quarter, 56 times in the third quarter, and 44 times in the fourth quarter. Carr threw the ball 74 times in the 1st quarter, 135 times in the second quarter, 113 times in the third quarter, and 98 times in the fourth quarter, I am not seeing where we ran the ball 70% of the time....
Click to expand...


Once again...the 70% of the time reflects THAT POINT IN TIME IN THAT PARTICULAR GAME NOT SEASON STATS.

In case you've never understood logic, go back and read what this thread is all about: DD (IN ONE PARTICULAR GAME) was used so much that him running became predictable to the defense, yet he still produced fairly well.

Look at the game that was posted...that is where the 70% came from...

It's not stats that confuse us...it's incoherent logic.
 
TexansSeminole said:
Look at the play calling...look how many times he got ran in a row. Sometimes 4 times in a row. Thats the point.
Click to expand...

and that 1st half was the start of his knee problems last year which eventually led to him missing 5 games.
 
What i was trying to explain to him earlier...but i was trying to have him figure out on his own.

Also, obviously he is not in the same mold as a LT...he has nowhere neer the speed or agility...but how about a guy like Seaun Alexander. He runs the same as DD, except is playing with more years under his belt, and had a good team for a couple of years now.

The part about the game where he was ran 70% of the time was like a remember that, wasn't that great type of thing. Not meant to be broken down so much.

I am excited about the future for DD, even though some of you doubt him to a degree, I believe he will be the biggest part of our running game for the next few years.
 
TexansSeminole said:
What i was trying to explain to him earlier...but i was trying to have him figure out on his own.

Also, obviously he is not in the same mold as a LT...he has nowhere neer the speed or agility...but how about a guy like Seaun Alexander. He runs the same as DD, except is playing with more years under his belt, and had a good team for a couple of years now.

The part about the game where he was ran 70% of the time was like a remember that, wasn't that great type of thing. Not meant to be broken down so much.

I am excited about the future for DD, even though some of you doubt him to a degree, I believe he will be the biggest part of our running game for the next few years.
Click to expand...

DD is somewhat simlar to Shaun Alexander in running style and such, but Alexander is better than him in every facet of the game other than catching the ball (faster, more agile, better running power, etc.)
 
I beleive they have the same amount of speed and agility...yet Alexander has much better vision (mostly off of experience), slightly better running power (probably in better football shape). Alexander is by far the better back,right now obviously.

I think Davis has great raw vision. Im not sure how Capers and Palmer drew up running plays because I rarely saw good lane last year, and he has done well.

Also, all these backs that were talked about earlier came from good teams. All teams that are good at all the facets of the football.
 
texan279 said:
Sorry, but last season we ran 437 rushing plays and 449 pass plays, so that is pretty much 50/50, so I don't understand the one dimensional angle.
Click to expand...

I'm a fan of Davis and Carr, but quite a few of those "pass" plays were designed short passes to Davis which pretty much count as running plays in my book.
 
texan279 said:
1200 yards rushing is the new 1000 yards rushing in the NFL. And FYI, there were 16 backs that rushed for 1000 yards last season, that is half of the starting backs in the NFL.
Click to expand...

And there are only 15 backs in NFL history who started their careers with two 1000 yd seasons--and all of those happened during the 16 game era (one was split--one season 14 games, the next 16 (by the way, only 1 of those failed to make the probowl during their career at least once)). IMO DD is very solid but not great--just pointing that out as he has had a rare start to his career and 1000 yds is not exactly as easy as tripping over your shoes even in the 16 game era.
 
AFD1717 said:
I'm a fan of Davis and Carr, but quite a few of those "pass" plays were designed short passes to Davis which pretty much count as running plays in my book.
Click to expand...


This is the point I was about to make, plus he missed what 5 games, I don't think Wells was used quite as much as DD.

I think DD will be much more productive this year because I think the offense will be improved all around. With more targets in the passing game (and an actual passing game to speak of), the defense will have to respect the threat of Moulds, AJ, and Putzier...that should open up the field a little bit.
 
infantrycak said:
And there are only 15 backs in NFL history who started their careers with two 1000 yd seasons--and all of those happened during the 16 game era (one was split--one season 14 games, the next 16 (by the way, only 1 of those failed to make the probowl during their career at least once). IMO DD is very solid but not great--just pointing that out as he has had a rare start to his career and 1000 yds is not exactly as easy as tripping over your shoes even in the 16 game era.
Click to expand...


And if DD would have gotten a few more yards last year and got the 1000 for his first 3 years in the league he would have been in very elite company, all-time greats kinda of company.
 
Hardcore Texan said:
This is the point I was about to make, plus he missed what 5 games, I don't think Wells was used quite as much as DD.

I think DD will be much more productive this year because I think the offense will be improved all around. With more targets in the passing game (and an actual passing game to speak of), the defense will have to respect the threat of Moulds, AJ, and Putzier...that should open up the field a little bit.
Click to expand...

I agree with everthing said here except DD being more productive. I think the RB position will be more productive, but I'm just not convinced that DD will be healthy for the season.:twocents:
 
HOU-TEX said:
I agree with everthing said here except DD being more productive. I think the RB position will be more productive, but I'm just not convinced that DD will be healthy for the season.:twocents:
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I am hopeful DD will be healthier, but you are right and I agree if he is not healthy the whole season, we will still have good production from the rest of the stable.(maybe even Bennett)
 
Hardcore Texan said:
I am hopeful DD will be healthier, but you are right and I agree if he is not healthy the whole season, we will still have good production from the rest of the stable.(maybe even Bennett)
Click to expand...

He'd be nice to have, but even the guys we have now should be ok. I'm kinda looking forward to seeing Lundy run the ball. Hopefullt he's quick hitting the line and cutting to the outside.
 
AFD1717 said:
I'm a fan of Davis and Carr, but quite a few of those "pass" plays were designed short passes to Davis which pretty much count as running plays in my book.
Click to expand...

Prior to last season, Carr was interviewed and stated under Palmer none of the passes to DD were designed other than from the standpoint of having a safety valve. Never heard about Pendry. JMO the pass plays were for the most part designed to go somewhere else (i.e. playcallingwise were real pass plays) and ended up being dumps to DD.
 
infantrycak said:
Prior to last season, Carr was interviewed and stated under Palmer none of the passes to DD were designed other than from the standpoint of having a safety valve. Never heard about Pendry. JMO the pass plays were for the most part designed to go somewhere else (i.e. playcallingwise were real pass plays) and ended up being dumps to DD.
Click to expand...

Point taken.
 
AFD1717 said:
I'm a fan of Davis and Carr, but quite a few of those "pass" plays were designed short passes to Davis which pretty much count as running plays in my book.
Click to expand...


In the West Coast offense, these types of pass plays are generally a common substitue for running plays. Not sure if that was the idea the team was going for...but Steve Young has always said that's how they played when he was there...
 
That is a key reason Roger Craig's pure rushing totals were often low, but his overall yardage was decent.
 
TheCD said:
In the West Coast offense, these types of pass plays are generally a common substitue for running plays. Not sure if that was the idea the team was going for...but Steve Young has always said that's how they played when he was there...
Click to expand...

That was my point.
 
TheCD said:
Once again...the 70% of the time reflects THAT POINT IN TIME IN THAT PARTICULAR GAME NOT SEASON STATS.

In case you've never understood logic, go back and read what this thread is all about: DD (IN ONE PARTICULAR GAME) was used so much that him running became predictable to the defense, yet he still produced fairly well.

Look at the game that was posted...that is where the 70% came from...

It's not stats that confuse us...it's incoherent logic.
Click to expand...

And this is what I posted on the first page of this thread in reference to the game posted...

On the first drive you posted he ran 11 times for 29 yards, and the second drive 4 carries for 17 yards, I guess we should watch out here comes the next Earl Campbell...
Click to expand...

If you think those stats are "fairly well", I would hate to see a poor game.
 
I don't think it's that DD was that good, I just think it was the fact that we have over used him at different points in the game because of the weakness of our pass blocking.
 
texan279 said:
If you think those stats are "fairly well", I would hate to see a poor game.
Click to expand...

Once again...that is "fairly well" considering the defense knew what was coming and he still garnered 98 yards. In the NFL today, 100 yards is considered good no matter how many carries it took.
 
infantrycak said:
And there are only 15 backs in NFL history who started their careers with two 1000 yd seasons--and all of those happened during the 16 game era (one was split--one season 14 games, the next 16 (by the way, only 1 of those failed to make the probowl during their career at least once)). IMO DD is very solid but not great--just pointing that out as he has had a rare start to his career and 1000 yds is not exactly as easy as tripping over your shoes even in the 16 game era.
Click to expand...

This kind of helps prove my point, in the last 27 seasons 15 rookie backs have started their careers with back to back 1000 yard seasons, yet in football's first 52 seasons no rookie every did it. Seems to me it became easier to rush for 1000 yards after the 16 game schedule was implemented.
 
TheCD said:
Once again...that is "fairly well" considering the defense knew what was coming and he still garnered 98 yards. In the NFL today, 100 yards is considered good no matter how many carries it took.
Click to expand...

98 yards on 28 carries? And so if I go out and get 100 yards on 150 attempts you would think those were good stats?
 
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