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When do we go UGLY?

Wolf

Wolf

100% Texan
Let's face it everyone wants their cake and eat it too, but we can't. What is funny is everyone talks about Offensive line cannot protect the QB, Defense cannot get a pass rush (yes, I am frustrated like y'all about that). Let's recap the drafts
2002 Expansion draft.. We thought we had our OL settled for at least a couple of years .. Boselli and Young
so with
2002 .. we take Carr,Gaffney and Pitts first 3 picks... (supplement Brown)
2003.. Young and Boselli didn't pan, but at the time we need to get Carr some playmakers... we draft AJ and Joppru to help the offense
2004 we see a need in getting playmakers/youth on defense..D-rob and Babin are the top two choices ..
2005 we go with TJ as our top pick (finally go ugly) and we trade for a talented but underachieving CB to go with d-rob (p-buc)

here we are in 2006 and we ( essage board)are talking QB and RB again.. I mean when do we go UGLY? I am going to be happy if we go Bush or Young or trade down,but frustating part is all the threads talking about Casserly and his failure to get Carr protected and how the offense sputters..

I understand the Bush/VY could possibly be great NFL players and drafting them means that we still aren't addressing some serious issues with this team.. Protecting Carr and/or getting our defense to stop someone. IF we get Bush...he isn't going to protect Carr and isn't going to stop anyone on defense.. If we draft VY ..he is going to sit and that isn't going to help stop anyone/protect Carr...

My point is at some time we are going to have to go with the "Ugly" unpopular pick.. As some people say Carr is damaged goods.. wait till one more season of the same stuff and see how damaged he is.. and still with a healthy salary.
Draft day, I will be excited when the Texans pick (lets see if ESPN actually talks about the Texans this year, but I imagine more focus will be on Matt,Bush,Vince then the Texan needs) and won't be disappointed with whatever they do with the #1 overall (maybe 2nd round pick might have a discussion)
 
Wolf said:
Let's face it everyone wants their cake and eat it too, but we can't. What is funny is everyone talks about Offensive line cannot protect the QB, Defense cannot get a pass rush (yes, I am frustrated like y'all about that). Let's recap the drafts
2002 Expansion draft.. We thought we had our OL settled for at least a couple of years .. Boselli and Young
so with
2002 .. we take Carr,Gaffney and Pitts first 3 picks... (supplement Brown)
2003.. Young and Boselli didn't pan, but at the time we need to get Carr some playmakers... we draft AJ and Joppru to help the offense
2004 we see a need in getting playmakers/youth on defense..D-rob and Babin are the top two choices ..
2005 we go with TJ as our top pick (finally go ugly) and we trade for a talented but underachieving CB to go with d-rob (p-buc)

here we are in 2006 and we ( essage board)are talking QB and RB again.. I mean when do we go UGLY? I am going to be happy if we go Bush or Young or trade down,but frustating part is all the threads talking about Casserly and his failure to get Carr protected and how the offense sputters..

I understand the Bush/VY could possibly be great NFL players and drafting them means that we still aren't addressing some serious issues with this team.. Protecting Carr and/or getting our defense to stop someone. IF we get Bush...he isn't going to protect Carr and isn't going to stop anyone on defense.. If we draft VY ..he is going to sit and that isn't going to help stop anyone/protect Carr...

My point is at some time we are going to have to go with the "Ugly" unpopular pick.. As some people say Carr is damaged goods.. wait till one more season of the same stuff and see how damaged he is.. and still with a healthy salary.
Draft day, I will be excited when the Texans pick (lets see if ESPN actually talks about the Texans this year, but I imagine more focus will be on Matt,Bush,Vince then the Texan needs) and won't be disappointed with whatever they do with the #1 overall (maybe 2nd round pick might have a discussion)
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Solid post Wolf. I understand the need to get playmakers, but playmakers can't make plays without a little help up-front. I'm talking about both sides of the ball. The QB, WRs, and RBs need the o-line to give them the time to create plays, and the DBs, safties, and LBs need the d-line to create chaos so they can make plays, whether it be sacks or INTs. The playmakers we make are useless if the "big uglies" don't give them the chance?
 
thing is that our main homerun threat playmaker on offense is AJ and we can't even get him the ball.
 
I'm firmly of the opinion that the Texans will trade down from #1 & take either, D'Brick or Mario Williams. If they take Williams with their 1st pick, then I believe they'll take an OL with pick #33.

While we need a TE, I believe that they'll wait until the 3rd round to take one of the 2nd tier TE's like Klopfenstein, Fasano, Byrd, or Day.
 
Hottoddie said:
I'm firmly of the opinion that the Texans will trade down from #1 & take either, D'Brick or Mario Williams. If they take Williams with their 1st pick, then I believe they'll take an OL with pick #33.

While we need a TE, I believe that they'll wait until the 3rd round to take one of the 2nd tier TE's like Klopfenstein, Fasano, Byrd, or Day.
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I'd love to see us go OLT and DE with our 1st two selections, and TE with one of our two 3rds. Then we can add a good interior lineman and a safety with our other 3rd and our 4th.
 
See.....I agree with the overall point. But, I think we can take something slick with pick one, all the while fortifying the "uglies" through free agency or trade.

I would rather have an experienced group of "uglies" added, rather than rookies.
 
i have a couple "safe" picks that i have made up in my mind. OLT, interior o-lineman, ILB, FS, TE, and DE. these are guys i would like to see us draft somewhere in this years draft (of course i have my personal favorites but how often is a fan right outside of the 1st round).

we really dont need to get a 3 year project and these rooks need to have the ability to be inserted into the lineup at the drop of a hat.

as much as i would like us to get a couple free agents, im guessing we will only go after backups (like sanders or rivers). if wade and greenwood are examples of what our FO did - then PLEASE step on the brakes and hold it up. huge contracts to lure them over plus not a great job of scouting - ill pass thank you very much
 
Good thread, Wolf.

This is one of the strongest drafts in awhile, and if we could capitalize on the high value of our pick(s), I'm sure we could really fill in some holes. I know it wouldn't be a popular decision among fans, but we have to look long term. Getting a flashy rookie QB or RB is a short-term glamour pick, because everyone will be excited about having a playmaker.

But the reality is that one player won't make that much of a difference if he can't make plays because he lacks the supporting cast around him. Watching Young get sacked a dozen times a game, or Bush get stopped in the backfield time after time, won't do much for fans. Building a strong team by acquiring and assembling the right parts so we can consistently win will do everything for the franchise and fans.

There will be a lot of bellyaching and gnashing of teeth if they go with a o-lineman or defensive player with the no. 1 pick, but those boos will turn to cheers one those unpopular picks give us the edge during the regular season.

I say look at the big picture, and go with a long-term strategy for success.
 
I agree with your point. However, I think that this years draft allows us to take one of the dynamic players in VY/Bush and still address the "uglies" in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

If this draft were not as deep as it is in OL, then I may be hesitant to take another playmaker in the 1st as well.
 
Double Barrel said:
This is one of the strongest drafts in awhile, and if we could capitalize on the high value of our pick(s), I'm sure we could really fill in some holes. I know it wouldn't be a popular decision among fans, but we have to look long term.
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while i STILL continue to mourn the death of mr. miyagi, this would definately help me out in the mourning process....:cool:

:redtowel:

There will be a lot of bellyaching and gnashing of teeth if they go with a o-lineman or defensive player with the no. 1 pick
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this is the only scenario i cant see since next in line are teams ready to jump all over a qb rather than a lineman or DE perhaps. (as i reread this, i question if i understood you correctly. did you mean keeping #1 or did you mean our first pick even though it may not be #1 overall...just trying to make sure we are on the same page here)
 
ccdude730 said:
(as i reread this, i question if i understood you correctly. did you mean keeping #1 or did you mean our first pick even though it may not be #1 overall...just trying to make sure we are on the same page here)
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This one: "our first pick even though it may not be #1 overall" :)

D'brick, Williams, or Hawk (and a couple of others) would all make great choices, IMO. They might not be the flashy picks that gets a lot of fans pumped, but these are the kind of players that provide anchor to their specific units.
 
Double Barrel said:
This one: "our first pick even though it may not be #1 overall" :)

D'brick, Williams, or Hawk (and a couple of others) would all make great choices, IMO. They might not be the flashy picks that gets a lot of fans pumped, but these are the kind of players that provide anchor to their specific units.
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:ok: right on, chief!


:superman:
 
I'm not sure I get the label that people keep putting on Bush and VY as "flashy" etc. It is almost like saying they are overrated. These are two extrodinary athletes that have led their teams over the years and who are winners. We are a 2-14 team with maybe 2 game changing athletes on both sides of the ball..AJ and Daunte. Besides that we are 2-14 because we have ZERO top tier talent. There are two things about this draft...it is DEEP on O-line and it is top heavy on playmakers. With 4 of the Top 66 picks we could easily take Bush or Young AND get the O-line you need with the next three picks and FA. Why would you want to pass on that?You could do the same thing by trading down, getting more picks and getting a stud DE that can reek havok or a LB with a motor and heart who will be a leader and make plays. You could still then get O-line. D'Brick IMHO is getting way too much press. I think there are a few other guys who have just as solid a chance. Brick was inconsistent and banged up in his senior year. I just don't see getting one O-lineman and being stuck with the playmakers we have. Makes ZERO sense.
 
I see what you are saying,but like my original post.. we haven't gone ugly yet.. I mean say we pick up Bush this season and next season we win 3 games and have the #1 pick overall again and the OL and DL hasn't been addressed.. well threads will pop up all over the place about Quinn coming to Houston... or if somehow we took Vince... and have a 3 win season.. and Peterson declares.. well threads pop up about Peterson all over the place..

I just find it hard for us to get better when our OL is horrible and I do admit I believe we should see some improvement with Pendry gone .. but still.

When will the Texans realize we would have to go ugly? ...I admit as a fan I hated the oilers for picking up Steinkuhler,Munchak and Mathews in consecutive drafts.. it was ugly,but those guys laid the foundation for Rozier,White, etc..etc..
 
Wolf said:
When will the Texans realize we would have to go ugly?
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When Carr ha to breathe into a tube to move, because that's where he's heading with this lack of addressing one of the two major problems this team has.
 
I, too, am in the "trade the pick" group.

Going ugly is not the most popular move because it doesn't place us inside the media hurricane like a lot of people want. Most fans, IMO, just want us to be talked about a lot...and thus they want us to get the guy that everyone is talking about. And let's face it, when you have VY and RB in the draft this year, with the fireworks these guys had produced all season and in the championship game, you WILL get a lot of boos and a lot of "I am not cheering this team anymore..." junk from about 50% of the fans.

The Detroit Lions and the Cleveland Browns are two good examples of teams drafting sexy and getting absolutely nowhere for it. Every draft they do the same thing, and every draft they are picking in the same slots in the first round.

And against the argument that we "don't have top tier" talent in the QB/RB/WR department: I think we do. To see so much griping all season long about how Carr sacks himself, Carr doesn't have an o line to keep him upright, and AJ can't get the ball because Carr is on his back, and yet to see the hype about us NEEDING to take one of those two guys (VY or RB) in order to be a serious NFL threat, is just amazing to me.

Franchise o linemen don't come around in free agency very often because teams get them and pay them richly to keep them on their team. And I support the "trade the pick and get the "Brick" idea because I watched him in the senior bowl, and the few plays I saw it looked like he was man-handling his opponent...and his opponent was NFL-caliber because it's the senior bowl.

But I still think we are taking Bush, especially since it seems McNair gave Carroll his "word," and we all know that McNair is a man of his word. In addition, you've got a guy in Kubiak who no doubt has salivated over the chance to load up in the running back position with DD AND Bush, and Wells and Morency in reserve.

Developing VY is not an idea I want to even consider. He's a great talent, but it'd take a few seasons for him to get fully comfortableon OUR team. He could easily plug into other teams (Titans) and hit the ground running (literally) and it'll make it look like we should have drafted him. I can see it happening.

Going ugly is the best thing to do, but it ain't going to happen.
 
your right on that.. I want everyone to talk about the Texans too, just frustates me (and y'all) that when the season goes, the only thing talked about the Texans is Carr getting sacked....:brickwall
 
I see where you guys are coming from but again, we don't just have ONE pick and we have a deep O-line draft. If we are going to build like Denver then lets build like them. Their one first round o-lineman was a #20 pick. One guy was 7th round, one an undrafted rookie and two fourth rounders. The way their blocking scheme goes it is more taught than just sticking them in and letting them go. You can get Bush, VY or Hawk or Williams and and still get top tire lineman in the 2nd round and some really good guys in the 3rd. I think we have some guys now that can also fit the system. I don't think this is an either/or draft. If done right you can accomplish both goals. I could care less abotu evetryone talking about us but I also think line or no line that a few of the games we lost this year could have been won if we had a guy who could take it to the house on one play instead of a team of pretty good guys that teams didn't fear. DD is not going to break one off to win a game or put a game away.
 
I think going UGLY should be our first priority on both sides of the ball. As you all know, Im a big trade down fan, I want Ferguson in the first riound, just because of the success of first round tackles., though I wouldnt mind taking Mario in round 1 and going OT in round 2.
 
we have AJ and he CAN take it to the house.. yet can't get him the ball..

I just am not sold on Bush... I just find it weird that when USC needed the tough yards and the game was on the line that the "all-world" RB was on the sidelines.. It just strikes me weird esp when Bush is moving up to the NFL level and even if Bush ran a 4.2 forty that to me doesn't mean much because most DB probably run a 4.4 or so but they make up that .2 seconds with angles.
. I am not saying Bush will be a bust and if the Texans take him, I will still be satisfyied with the pick.., I guess I look for a RB that can wear a defense down and in the 4th quarter take it too them and to me the way the Texan defense is.. we need a RB that can get the tough yards and control the clock.. just to keep the "defense" off the field (yes some sarcasm and some joke in that one)
 
Houstonfrog.. I am in agreement with you DD is not and never will be one that can take it the distance on runs.. I would like to see a homerun threat also.DD is a SOLID football player
 
When did the Oilers finally arrive as a perennial Playoff team??? When they finally decided to make the UGLY trench picks a priority. In that 2 year span they solidified both sides of the ball, through picks and trades. The only reason we didn't hoist that Lombardi Trophy at least a couple times during that 7 straight playoff appearance stretch, was our Coach lacked a KILLER INSTINCT. This method of building a winner is proven, so why try and re-invent the wheel.

I'm a very happy Houston Fan today, CONGRATULATIONS WARREN MOON:redtowel: The best pure passer in the NFL has his place in Canton.
 
HoustonFrog said:
I'm not sure I get the label that people keep putting on Bush and VY as "flashy" etc. It is almost like saying they are overrated. These are two extrodinary athletes that have led their teams over the years and who are winners. We are a 2-14 team with maybe 2 game changing athletes on both sides of the ball..AJ and Daunte. Besides that we are 2-14 because we have ZERO top tier talent. There are two things about this draft...it is DEEP on O-line and it is top heavy on playmakers. With 4 of the Top 66 picks we could easily take Bush or Young AND get the O-line you need with the next three picks and FA. Why would you want to pass on that?You could do the same thing by trading down, getting more picks and getting a stud DE that can reek havok or a LB with a motor and heart who will be a leader and make plays. You could still then get O-line. D'Brick IMHO is getting way too much press. I think there are a few other guys who have just as solid a chance. Brick was inconsistent and banged up in his senior year. I just don't see getting one O-lineman and being stuck with the playmakers we have. Makes ZERO sense.
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Because they are not need positions. We do not need Qbs or RBs sopicking one would be just a flashy pikc to have a supposed all-world player and leaved the other holes open.

Oh and why is Ferguson getting too much hype? Ferguson is getting the hype he deserves. People have been saying the same thing about Ferguson for 2 years... hes not like Bush and Young who after 1 year hop into the first overall spot. Ferguson would have been a top 5 pick last year. He has been the #1 ranked LT all year. He has been one of the top prospects all year.

Bush wasnt the top rated RB at the beginning of the season, Williams was. Young still istn the top rated QB. Ferguson would have been the first LT picked if he came out in 05. Bush couldnt come out, but if he could he wouldnt have gotten picked in that big 3 from last year...VY would have been drafted at WR if he had come out. How is Fergfuson getting too much press.



Drafting a big name skill player makes less sense than drafting a big name lineman.

  1. Because we dont need one
  2. We would not be picking up extra picks
  3. We would have to wait to the 2nd to go o-line and 3rd to go defense... that means that there will be less probably starters at need positions being that 2nd day picks dont have as good of chances at starting.
  4. We would loose at least 3 picks... one from drafting the player, and 2 from the trade down...probably a 2nd this year and a 1st next year where we can draft Peterson or Hart if you guys still want a RB.
 
BuffSoldier said:
Because they are not need positions. We do not need Qbs or RBs sopicking one would be just a flashy pikc to have a supposed all-world player and leaved the other holes open.[/LIST]
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I hear you but I don't agree with this part. You laid it out nicely. Carr and DD are not franchise players IMHO and no matter who you get on the line I don't think they are the guys to take you there. Just an opinion. Plus no one has answered me why it is so hard to still take one of them and get the guys you NEED in the next three picks. As I pointed out in my last post Denver has been doing it for years. They teach their system and get guys to fit it. D'Brick did not have a great senior season so I am not sold on a guy who might not get us anything. Why is it an automatic no bust taking a OL this high but not a skill guy?People act like he can't be a bust. Plenty of lineman haven't taken their teams anywhere. Robert Gallery anyone?We can get both done.

Wolf, I see what you are saying on Bush. I think White might be as good myself but I am listening to the evaluators and sometimes you trust them. If he is that good and you can get the lineman in a deep lineman draft I don't think we can complain at 2-14. But I see where you are coming from. If we trade down I'd rather take Williams though and see if the guy can be our Freeney. Maybe we wouldn't have break downs so late in games with a guy making plays.
 
While I favor drafting Bush or trading down for Brick, I am impatiently waiting to hear how Kubiak's player evaluations are going. That is the real key here. I think this team suffered more from bad coaching than bad talent. Kubiak might be able to scheme a better pocket, but he can't scheme Reggie Bush's agility, speed, vision, and receiver skills.

Bush, on the surface, isn't a need pick. But in a way, he is. He is that second scoring threat to take some of the pressure off AJ. Teams can afford to drop more defenders in coverage because of the Oline and because DD isn't going too far once the dump pass comes. They can't do that with Bush in Kubiak's scheme. They have to account for him every play. Between, Bush, AJ and Mathis Carr will have plenty of options.

The biggest things making the Ferguson option sexy, is fixing the line AND adding extra picks in what is a deep draft. The drawback is that it's largely the oline that makes this draft so deep. So you can always draft a tacke in the 2nd or package a player (someone who doesn't translate into the new scheme or is made expendable by it) and a pick to move up into the first or make one of the thirds a second. Point being, you can still address the Oline and get Bush.
 
MojoX said:
Point being, you can still address the Oline and get Bush.
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Great post and I couldn't agree more about defenses needing to account for Bush. Your last sentence is what I have been trying to say. That part excites me. It isn't like we just have one pick.
 
MojoX said:
Point being, you can still address the Oline and get Bush.
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You can improve the O-line but it isn't a given that you will be able to upgrade the most important position on the line, LT. While there are some nice potential OLT's that could still be there with the 33rd selection, it isn't a given. D. Ferguson is about as close as you are going to get to a guarantee in this draft. If we bypass taking Ferguson, there is a decent chance we are still complaining about our O-line in April 2007. There is no guarantee that there will be a franchise LT available in that draft.

If we pass on Ferguson and take Bush, it is like having a heart failure and the doctor replaces (upgrades) your liver instead of your heart.

Could it improve your health? Possibly.

Will you continue to have health problems though? Very likely.
 
HoustonFrog said:
I hear you but I don't agree with this part. You laid it out nicely. Carr and DD are not franchise players IMHO and no matter who you get on the line I don't think they are the guys to take you there. Just an opinion. Plus no one has answered me why it is so hard to still take one of them and get the guys you NEED in the next three picks. As I pointed out in my last post Denver has been doing it for years. They teach their system and get guys to fit it. D'Brick did not have a great senior season so I am not sold on a guy who might not get us anything. Why is it an automatic no bust taking a OL this high but not a skill guy?People act like he can't be a bust. Plenty of lineman haven't taken their teams anywhere. Robert Gallery anyone?We can get both done.

Wolf, I see what you are saying on Bush. I think White might be as good myself but I am listening to the evaluators and sometimes you trust them. If he is that good and you can get the lineman in a deep lineman draft I don't think we can complain at 2-14. But I see where you are coming from. If we trade down I'd rather take Williams though and see if the guy can be our Freeney. Maybe we wouldn't have break downs so late in games with a guy making plays.
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I agree that Dd may not be a Franchise RB, but he is a very good one... but Carr was the first pick in 02, se have yet to see if he can be the franchise QB that he was supposed to be... Carson Palmer doesnt have anything over Carr... Carr has a stronger arm, and just as much accuracy and touch on deep balls... the difference is that Carr has never had the o-line that Plamer has or the WRs. Palmer has a pro bowl LT something Carr has never played wiht. I agree with DD but I cant speak on Carr yet, we havent given hi m a fair chance. Think that the best LT that we have had was drafted as a 3rd round OG.

And to adress the second point... we have more than 3 needs thats why I say to trade down... If we had 2 big problems like OL and TE I would have Draft Bush Club as my signature becaudw in this draft we could take a LT in the second and a good TE in the 3rd and be fine.

We need
  1. Offensive Tackle(obviously)
  2. Defensive End (if we are going to a 4-3 we need at least one 4-3 DE)
  3. Line Backer (If we play Wong and Greenwood at the outside then we need an ILB)
  4. Safety(Coleman doest want to practice, CC and Earl are sub par even thoughthey are young)
  5. Corner Back(Buchanan has shown that he is not the playmaker at CB we need
  6. Tight End(obviously)
  7. Interior Lineman(Weigert is old and McKinney is bad)

Thats 7 positions that we NEED to upgrade at. By drafting Bush or VY we take away an opportunity to fill a spot in the first round.. we loose out on an extra pick form the trade this year and a first rounder next year.

Even if we fill 2 of the positions in FA, which we probably wont, we will still havfe 5 needs to fill in about 3 spots, not including the prospect of a bust.


Gallery wasnt supposed to take a TEAM anywhere by himself... they still have alot of holes to fill... but I bet he wouldnt give up too man sacks against us. He is still a great talent... If thats the case were had Fitzgerald or Eli taken there team they have holes to fill, but I bet NY wouldnt draft VY with a good young QB already.
 
TheOgre said:
.
If we pass on Ferguson and take Bush, it is like having a heart failure and the doctor replaces (upgrades) your liver instead of your heart.

Could it improve your health? Possibly.

Will you continue to have health problems though? Very likely.
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Great analogy... I wish I had thought of it:ok:
 
TheOgre said:
You can improve the O-line but it isn't a given that you will be able to upgrade the most important position on the line, LT. While there are some nice potential OLT's that could still be there with the 33rd selection, it isn't a given. D. Ferguson is about as close as you are going to get to a guarantee in this draft. If we bypass taking Ferguson, there is a decent chance we are still complaining about our O-line in April 2007. There is no guarantee that there will be a franchise LT available in that draft.

If we pass on Ferguson and take Bush, it is like having a heart failure and the doctor replaces (upgrades) your liver instead of your heart.

Could it improve your health? Possibly.

Will you continue to have health problems though? Very likely.
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I agree with the sentiment. I think the analogy is way off base. Yes, no other prospect will improve the line quite like Ferguson. But the same is true for Bush (and Young). The way I see it, Ferguson, Bush and Young look like one in a decade prospects. If the Texans' current Carr love fest is genuine, then I can forgive passing on Young. It is the other two who have me straddling the line.
 
i am just not sold on bush personally. he has breakaway speed and receiving ability - but breakaway speed for a RB isnt as important as the other aspects of being a RB (cutting, vision, acceleration, leg drive, blitz pickups) and i think DD makes up well for his lack of SPEED, minus the pass protection. davis can also line up on the LOS and run some routes, but our offensive coordinator neglected to incorporate that into our stagnant offense. there are also questions about bushs durability. heres the stat of the night - denver this season ran the ball 34 times a game (2nd in the nfl next to pittsburgh). could he manage 25 carries with DD getting 10? is it even fair especially with the contract extension davis got?

Plus no one has answered me why it is so hard to still take one of them and get the guys you NEED in the next three picks.
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well ferguson is probably the best pass blocker in the draft and many are saying he fits best into that zone blocking scheme. with a trade down and picking the brick up you can possibly get 2-4 extra picks (insert poor scouting comment) where we can get another playmaker this season or next. does bush have that potential to be HUGE? of course he does - the kid has amazing ability, but what matters is where and how he fits into kubiaks offense.

dont hate :)
 
My question is will Bush help the Texans more than D'Brickashaw Ferguson/Mario Williams, an extra second rounder and the Jets 2007 first round pick in the long run?

To make it more visual, would its basiclly:

Bush vs. Ferguson, Byrd, and say next year we still need a LB we pick Paul Posluszny from Penn St.

IMHO I dont think that Bush could do all that a combo like that could do.
 
BuffSoldier said:
and say next year we still need a LB we pick Paul Posluszny from Penn St.
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well thats a very bold statement :heh: yeah......anyway


i actually dont believe we would even be in position to draft him. hopefully next draft we will be more toward the middle of the pack
 
but breakaway speed for a RB isnt as important as the other aspects of being a RB (cutting, vision, acceleration, leg drive, blitz pickups)
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Have you ever seen Bush play? He is a 10 out of 10 on cutting ability, vision, and acceleration, and probably an 7 to 8 out of 10 on leg drive and blitz pickup/pass protection.

It seems to me we drafted a big ugly in round 1 last year. That worked out so well. :ok:
 
Porky said:
Have you ever seen Bush play? He is a 10 out of 10 on cutting ability, vision, and acceleration, and probably an 7 to 8 out of 10 on leg drive and blitz pickup/pass protection.

It seems to me we drafted a big ugly in round 1 last year. That worked out so well. :ok:
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when people talk about bush people immediatly say he has speed, and he does - but its overrated. nowhere did i say he had no other ability

too bad TJ cant play LT right? :rolleyes:
 
ccdude730 said:
when people talk about bush people immediatly say he has speed, and he does - but its overrated. nowhere did i say he had no other ability

too bad TJ cant play LT right? :rolleyes:
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Okay, you tell me what this means then. Sounds to me like you are exactly dissing his other skills and saying he is simply a breakaway straight ahead speed back.

am just not sold on bush personally. he has breakaway speed and receiving ability - but breakaway speed for a RB isnt as important as the other aspects of being a RB (cutting, vision, acceleration, leg drive, blitz pickups) and i think DD makes up well for his lack of SPEED, minus the pass protection.
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BuffSoldier said:
My question is will Bush help the Texans more than D'Brickashaw Ferguson/Mario Williams, an extra second rounder and the Jets 2007 first round pick in the long run?

To make it more visual, would its basiclly:

Bush vs. Ferguson, Byrd, and say next year we still need a LB we pick Paul Posluszny from Penn St.

IMHO I dont think that Bush could do all that a combo like that could do.
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This is more like how I assess this. Just as Casserly says Young = Carr + Bush, we have to see Bush as Bush = Ferguson + __________. The question is what is the ________? To me, I can't assess if Bush, who is a complete back -- not just some track guy, is worth Ferguson + whatever until I have an idea of how the evaluations go and what kind of trade package the team can get for the #1 pick. Ferguson + 2006 2nd and 2007 1st would sway me. That is if the Jets will do it.

But there is no guarantee the "right" deal will come along. We may be looking at a draft in which the top 5 teams are willing to sit tight and pick from whoever falls to them. The worse thing the team can do is force a trade by settling for a weak trade package. And trading out of the top 5 would be crazy, IMO. That is why I am "Bush or trade down for Brick." If a top 5 squad (preferably the Jets) offers a sweet deal, then I trade down. If not, I take Bush, address needs with my other 3 first day picks (hopefully packaging a player with a pick to move up) and be happy.
 
Porky said:
Okay, you tell me what this means then. Sounds to me like you are exactly dissing his other skills and saying he is simply a breakaway straight ahead speed back.
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it means that those other aspects are more important than speed; hence, DD can get the job done. i said he has speed and receiving ability, but i did not say that was all he had either.

when people ask why we should draft him its always the same thing - speed to take pressure of AJ and he can line up in the slot and all of those sorts. basically im saying for what DD lacks (mainly speed but pass protection as well) he makes up for with his vision, acceleration, etc. again i belive the main difference between them is speed. also if you read further i gave some props to him

ccdude730 said:
does bush have that potential to be HUGE? of course he does - the kid has amazing ability, but what matters is where and how he fits into kubiaks offense.
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ccdude730 said:
it means that those other aspects are more important than speed; hence, DD can get the job done. i said he has speed and receiving ability, but i did not say that was all he had either.

when people ask why we should draft him its always the same thing - speed to take pressure of AJ and he can line up in the slot and all of those sorts. basically im saying for what DD lacks (mainly speed but pass protection as well) he makes up for with his vision, acceleration, etc. again i belive the main difference between them is speed. also if you read further i gave some props to him
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If you think the main difference between the two is raw speed, we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for clarifying, and have a wonderful evening. :)
 
ccdude730 said:
it means that those other aspects are more important than speed; hence, DD can get the job done. i said he has speed and receiving ability, but i did not say that was all he had either.

when people ask why we should draft him its always the same thing - speed to take pressure of AJ and he can line up in the slot and all of those sorts. basically im saying for what DD lacks (mainly speed but pass protection as well) he makes up for with his vision, acceleration, etc. again i belive the main difference between them is speed. also if you read further i gave some props to him
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For all DD has, you don't scheme to stop him. Defenses invited the Texans to give DD the ball. That should tell you enough about what DD lacks. DD gets the fantasy numbers, but he doesn't change defenses. His lack of speed and durability issues aren't minor things.

Bush isn't just speed. That is just the first thing that stands out. The guy has acceleration, vision, cutback ability, he runs through arm tackles, knows hot to setup his blocks, has patience, can receive, picks up the blitz, etc. I watched Bush all this year and found him too good to be true. As teams currently do with LT and did with Faulk, you have to scheme to counter Bush.
 
MojoX said:
For all DD has, you don't scheme to stop him. Defenses invited the Texans to give DD the ball. That should tell you enough about what DD lacks. DD gets the fantasy numbers, but he doesn't change defenses. His lack of speed and durability issues aren't minor things.

Bush isn't just speed. That is just the first thing that stands out. The guy has acceleration, vision, cutback ability, he runs through arm tackles, knows hot to setup his blocks, has patience, can receive, picks up the blitz, etc. I watched Bush all this year and found him too good to be true. As teams currently do with LT and did with Faulk, you have to scheme to counter Bush.
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this is where i have to disagree. our run blocking is around average but continues to be hot/cold. to stop the texan offense you had to double AJ and stack extra men up into the box. so exactly what does DD lack do you think? i can say with certainty he lacks home run speed and pass protection. the debatable issue is durability since he has been such a huge part of our offense.

for the past 2 seasons: e. james had 789 touches for 3874 yards (4.9 avg), LT had 782 touches for 3608 yards (4.6 avg), d davis 639 touches for 3089 (4.8 avg). stats can be misleading sometimes, but this is his production which has to show for something.

The guy has acceleration, vision, cutback ability, he runs through arm tackles, knows hot to setup his blocks, has patience, can receive, picks up the blitz, etc.
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take out picking up the blitz and IMO you pretty much have dom davis. and yes what stands out is his speed which is why i believe is the biggest difference between them.

so thats the end of my bush/DD talk for the next few months :goodnight
 
Porky said:
If you think the main difference between the two is raw speed, we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for clarifying, and have a wonderful evening. :)
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I'm not sure if anyone has noticed but DD is an average back in the NFL. No one fears him. No one game plans for him because they know he won't break one to hurt them. They would rather give up 100 to DD and blitz all game because they know he won't hurt them. He won't win the game for you and over all he is not a franchise back. Take the fact that he also is banged up every week and seems to be Probably or Questionable every week and you have a person who you are not going to ride to the big dance, plain and simple.
 
HoustonFrog said:
I'm not sure if anyone has noticed but DD is an average back in the NFL. No one fears him. No one game plans for him because they know he won't break one to hurt them. They would rather give up 100 to DD and blitz all game because they know he won't hurt them. He won't win the game for you and over all he is not a franchise back. Take the fact that he also is banged up every week and seems to be Probably or Questionable every week and you have a person who you are not going to ride to the big dance, plain and simple.
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He is game planned against and if he has 100 just cause he didnt break a long one doesnt mean that he didnt help, actually he could help more cause if Reggie has 100 yards and 73 on 1 play that means he as shut down the rest of the game DD is constistent and will pound you to death and force you to stop him... Bettis wasnt fast.
 
Unless Bush can run for 1500-1800 yards per season, he's not worth the #1 overall pick to the Texans. Based upon what I saw in the Rose Bowl, he won't be able to do it. The Longhorns had a defense that could be considered a border line NFL caliber defense (#10 nationally), & Bush couldn't get around the ends. The NFL LB's & CB's have speed similar to Bush's. How's he going to get around them?

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?div=4&rpt=IA_teamtotdef&site=org

I don't know if this'll help my argument, or not, but I put together a spreadsheet showing Bush's rushing/receiving stats for each game this year, & the national rankings of the defenses he played against. I just hope it copies well.

Crap! As soon as I can figure out how to make it more readable, I'll repost it.

Only 1 team was ranked in the top 10 in the nation (Texas). Keep in mind that few, if any, college teams could compete in the NFL. Also, note that Bush scored 3 TD's in only one game, & no more than 2 in any other game. All, while being on the nation's #1 ranked offensive team.
 
BuffSoldier said:
He is game planned against and if he has 100 just cause he didnt break a long one doesnt mean that he didnt help, actually he could help more cause if Reggie has 100 yards and 73 on 1 play that means he as shut down the rest of the game DD is constistent and will pound you to death and force you to stop him... Bettis wasnt fast.
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Sorry but even if we don't get Bush, DD will never be the guy to get us there IMHO. Injuries are just one of many things. It isn't just the speed. Even in his best years he has never won us a game or put us on his back. Many top backs do. He has been top quality for us for where we picked him etc but I've never heard any GM in the league put him in an upper tier category. I've seen Bettis take over games and wear teams down is the difference. That is not DD. I thought Morency looked just as good in his stint and that Wells filled in and did the same thing.
 
One can argue that running behind Ferguson and Pitts can help DD break long runs. Hell, it may help his durability since he wouldn't have to make hard contact with defenders at the line. A dominant LT improves the pass, run, and, in turn, the defense by helping make an efficient ball control offense. Trading down for Ferguson is easier on the cap (imagine what Bush or Young at #1 will do to the cap if we keep Carr) and the guy will anchor the line for the next 10+ years. Tony Hollings might look all world with the holes that line would open up.

I waver so much on this, it's pitiful. I am still Bush or trade down for Ferguson, but I am hoping more and more that the Jets decide to trade up.
 
BuffSoldier said:
And to adress the second point... we have more than 3 needs thats why I say to trade down... If we had 2 big problems like OL and TE I would have Draft Bush Club as my signature becaudw in this draft we could take a LT in the second and a good TE in the 3rd and be fine.

We need
  1. Offensive Tackle(obviously)
  2. Defensive End (if we are going to a 4-3 we need at least one 4-3 DE)
  3. Line Backer (If we play Wong and Greenwood at the outside then we need an ILB)
  4. Safety(Coleman doest want to practice, CC and Earl are sub par even thoughthey are young)
  5. Corner Back(Buchanan has shown that he is not the playmaker at CB we need
  6. Tight End(obviously)
  7. Interior Lineman(Weigert is old and McKinney is bad)

Thats 7 positions that we NEED to upgrade at. By drafting Bush or VY we take away an opportunity to fill a spot in the first round.. we loose out on an extra pick form the trade this year and a first rounder next year.

Even if we fill 2 of the positions in FA, which we probably wont, we will still havfe 5 needs to fill in about 3 spots, not including the prospect of a bust.
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At DE we have Babin, Peek, and Orr that used to play DE so that is not really a desperate need, and there are many servicable and affordable DE's. So that's one need that's blown out of proportion.
At TE we never really used our TEs so we don't really know what we have. Bruener is a premier blocking TE and toward the end Rivers showed alot of potential. So we have two decent TEs. There are a few good TE's in the market we can get, but even if we don't this position is not a great need.
At CB I think Saunders or Sanders did a decent job and has some maturing to do, there is a few CB's in the market, but I think Sanders and Robinson will do well with Buchanon backing them up an upgrade would be nice but not an extreme necessity.
At Tackle I think Wand and Pitts could handle the duties but depth would not hurt.
At safeties you gotta understand that Brown and Earl are extremely young and this yr. will have alot of improvement, getting another rookie would not really be an upgrade here.

So after all these assesments and what could be done in FA what I think we'll go into the draft needing is as follows.

ILB or OLB either or
Interior lineman
Safety or CB
Backup tackle
 
You know, if the NYJ get serious about swapping picks with us, this just may light a fire under Tenn's butt, who I think has the biggest desire to land Matt Leinert. This still creates a very good position for us. If we trade out, then Reggie Bush could go 3 or 4. The option for us will be, who wants Reggie Bush more than we do and what are they willing to give up??? I see Oak (#6 pick) or SF (#7 pick) calling to find out if we're willing to move out of the #3 spot. If these 2 moves materialized, we could force the draft to sway towards the glamor picks before we would pick at 6 or 7. Fairly safe to say we would accumulate a few picks for these moves and should still have our guys on the board. Just playing this out, feel free to adjust:

1. Tenn (From Hou); QB Matt Leinert
2. NO; QB Vince Young
3. SF (From Hou); RB Reggie Bush
4. NYJ; OL Bobby Ray / 125lb / Sister Mary's School of Cosmotology
Where do the Jets, FIND!!! these hidden gems??? LOL or
QB Jay Cutler (May not be a stretch, based on NYJ draft history)
5. GB; RB LenDale White
6. Oak; ???
7. Hou; We might have our choice of:
OT D'Brickashaw Ferguson or
DE Mario Williams or
LB A.J. Hawk or
RB DeAngelo Williams or
TE Vernon Davis or
DB Michael Huff

We get any one of these six guys at #7 plus the additional picks from shrewd but calculated moves and we have parlayed this draft and next years into a bumper crop of talent. I would have to say that this concept just might hold water.
 
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