SBTexans08
Rookie
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.
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What's the difference between Carr and P. Manning?
- Thread starter SBTexans08
- Start date
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I wouldn't go near that far, but it sure is interesting to see how Manning reacts the 1 or 2 times a year when an opponent gets consistant pressure--happy feet, fails to make good progression reads (see Dallas Clark and Edge open on subsequent plays at the end of the game where Peyton was locked on to the primary) and starts prematurely avoiding contact--hmmm sounds like a lot of the same symptoms mere mortal QB's have.
SBTexans08
Rookie
jerek said:
Great argument....
HardKnockTexan
Rookie
I was at the Cardinal game and got to watch first hand as Carr called plays at the LOS. Even though the Cards secondary was banged up Carr had his best half of the year when he was in controll of the situation. I'd say the biggest difference between Carr and Manning is that Manning has the faith of his coaching staff to make the proper decissions at the line of scrimage where Carr has only had 1 half of a game to show what he can do if given the chance.
SBTexans08
Rookie
thegr8fan said:
Another post with the same superb argument.....
During the season.....yes, night and day. During the season....Manning's got protection while Carr throughout the entire season doesn't.
During the post-season, when teams bring their best against Manning, thus actually going after him, breaking through the line.......he buckles just like Carr does with no protection.
When defenders break through....
Manning is like a deer caught by head lights.
Carr.....same.
Big overgeneralization alright.
With no protection....they perform the same.
With protection we've seen signs of greatness in Carr. Manning has it during the season so we see what he can do. We also see what he can't do with no protection........same with Carr.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
I'm not trying to be a jerk but this thread is absolutely a joke and really has nothing relevant about it. Manning, even after getting pounded, still put 15 points on the board in the 4th and had his team in a postion to go to OT..even after being outplayed all game. Manning has been an NFL MVP who smartly knows what calls to make at the line of scrimmage. He works non-stop on his timing with his receivers and the countless progressions and practice he and Harrison and Wayne put in after practice and before games has been the stuff that I have seen in two TV segments about them. Carr doesn't watch film or stay after practice. You can't knock a guy from elite status because someone had a better game plan. You don't see Manning staring down one receiver or holding the ball too long when it isn't the O-lines fault. To make a jump like this is ludicrous. You don't see Carr making the throws that Manning makes or the decisions, plain and simple. They are not on the same level. Where has been Carr's signs of greatness? In order to proclaim this you have to see a level that is CONSISTENT. One half against a horrible Arizona team or a Jacksonville game two years ago doesn't get the job done. Stop stirring the pot with this drivel. Manning was 22 of 38 with 290 yards and a TD with no interceptions on a horrible day. That is Carrs best day most of the time.
SBTexans08
Rookie
HoustonFrog said:
That's strange cause in every post-season when he's faced the same dilemna Carr faces all season.....Manning breaks down. What good does a 13-0 start to a season do, all the practice and having slumber parties with his team mates do you when the opposition is in your face....your brain farts up?
I saw Manning stare down receivers cause there were plenty of times other guys were open.....but guess what........he didn't see them cause he freaked when having guys come at him. What happened? Busted plays, that's what.
Sure Manning can be an MVP multiple times.....something Carr has never been or done. He has the luxury of not being hurried or having the defense in his face the way Carr does however. So....under different circumstances, Manning with protection and Carr without........yes, they are in no way comparable. But....stick them in the same circumstances..............they fare the same. When Carr's had protection.....he's performed very well. But that's quickly forgotten since those instances are few and far between. I don't know if you forgot but Carr does have a rediculous record of the being the QB sacked the most in 4 years.
In the playoffs of the 2004 season........after making record setting TDs in a season, after having also placed a record for being the only QB to have 3 WRs with 10 TDs each, respectively..........he goes into the post-season to face the Pats and he doesn't get a SINGLE TD. That's pitiful. You have all these TDs in the season.........break and make a record for it......but when the pressure is finally on.........you get ZERO of them. Ludicrous!!
Say as you please.......under the same circumstances........Manning is no different than Carr................UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!!! Clear enough???
eriadoc
Texan-American
The first half of last season, I think we all saw what Carr CAN do, and the line play was not stellar, just average. This season, the entire team melted down and the offensive line was worse than in Year One, at least until they bumped Riley out. With improved line play next year and some decent coaching, I see no reason why Carr cannot improve upon 2004's numbers.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
SBTexans08 said:
Your post was a rambling diatribe of contradictions. In one sentence he is the same because he folds under presssure yet in another he can still win games and get a team to the playoffs and be an MVP with the pressure and somehow he is just like Carr, a guy who has won nothing or taken a team anywhere. Huh? So your saying that Elway and Young were failures because they lost in 3-4 years or more of the playoffs before winning their first one?But somehow these guys had to GET to the post season to even have a chance. Something Carr doesn't do. If he is so bad then why does Manning get blitzed all season and still produce. And why don't you have an answer for his stats in the game when he had no turnovers, 290 yards a TD?Wouldn't you think that their defense, who was ranked high all year and gave up all the points and the 8 minute drives would be responsible?You really are making no sense at all. So no, it is not clear enough. Please don't ramble like RainMan on crack again. When you can answer when Carr got knocked around like that, still had 290 yards, a TD and no picks and the team still had a chance to win, then your point can be made. But you can't because it has never happened and it sure as heck never happened in a playoff game.
Maddict5
Hall of Fame
Carson Palmer,Tom Brady,Peyton Manning,Matt Hassellback,Donovan Mc Nabb,Ben etc. what do they all have in common apart from being regarded as the best qbs-excellent o-lines and run games. the best example of o-line importance is Culpepper-last year with excellent protection he was brilliant-this years with bad protection int magnet. note to every football fan: if the majority of qbs in the nfl are given time and a running game they will look good. thats why ferguson ,bentley and other o-line should be our off-season offensive moves
SBTexans08
Rookie
And 2004's numbers weren't bad, considering Carr still had many games where the line broke down. I mean...bad protections always been a problem for him. I wonder what Manning would have done in Carr's position in 2004. Would he have had as good a year Carr did with that O-line? Looking at the games in which Manning gets pressured.....I'd heavily doubt it. 2005 season was too ridiculous..........NO QB could perform under those circumstances........NO QB, NO WAY, NO HOW! I don't see why people down Carr the way they do. That line is piss poor...........and not to mention the poor excuse of a coaching staff Carr had to deal with.eriadoc said:
The coaches didn't have confidence/faith in their plan, playing musical chairs with their linemen..........how could the lineman themselves have confidence in the coaches plans if the coaches didn't have faith in it? What did this project into? You guessed it...........SACKS GALORE!!
SBTexans08
Rookie
HoustonFrog said:
You need to learn to read. I didn't contradict myself. Read it again.
Edit: As an addendum. There's more to making a point in a post than just sentence structure (your forte). Again....read it, compute it....then come at me.
The Preacher
Waterboy
HoustonFrog said:
Not to be a jerk either but I believe it is incredibly relevant and if my computer hadn't been down the last day I would have started the same thread. I would have prefaced it by saying the obvious difference is in their experience, stats, and success but the thread is about the difference when neither has good o-line protection. The answer to that is essentially not much. Both get sacked and put up scratch #'s. Yeah Peyton got the late TD but really the stats should have showed an INT, the result of constant pressure and little confidence in having more time. The bottom line is that NFL QB's look horrible when they have no time and if Peyton essentially getting shut down doesn't prove that then I don't know what to say. The second bottom line is the Texans need to forget about playmakers because when there is no blocking there will be little offense to be had. Personally if the Texans draft Reggie I'll still root for them but I'll expect the exact same sort of production.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
SBTexans08 said:
I did and again it made no sense and went in 10 directions. You have no answer for statistics or any facts I brought out. Same as you accused others of doing above. You can't make the argument at all. You are now personally attacking me instead of the facts!!You have not made one relevant point. To be an NFL QB, you need more than just an O-line. You need to study, you need to work with your teammates. You need to make it to the playoffs. I saw Steve Young get his head handed to him against the Cowboys in an NFC title game and he lost 3 times before winning the SB. So did that make him a loser that was the same as Carr?No, it meant that his team had a bad day. He still was a winner who could lead and get his team to a point where they could, AS A TEAM, compete. Carr has neither shown the leadership, the extra work or any of these qualities, even in defeat.
SBTexans08
Rookie
The Preacher said:
F'en A! Let's hope Kubiak makes the most of what we've got. Great point man.....no matter what talent in the playmakers you have there at your disposal.....they'll do you no good if you don't protect the QB.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
SBTexans08 said:
Manning has been able to step out of the ominous shadow of David Carr and has won 3 playoff games in his career.
Comical how Carr comparisions revolve around other's one game short comings and Carr's great half against the Arizona Cardinals at the end of the season when neither had anything to play for.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
The Preacher said:
So how does one account for the fact that most coaches, commentators, etc literally call Carr out for taking many of his own sacks by holding the ball too long and staring down receivers?Some how these other QBs took their knocks and learned the lesson yet Carr hasn't.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Kaiser Toro said:
Thank you. Maybe we should go get every QB that was a dud but showed potential and give them a line and they should all be the same! It is everyones fault but the QB.
SBTexans08
Rookie
The argument you've brought up has been nullified by Manning's lackluster performance when defenses actually come at him. You're taking shots at nothing but air here man.HoustonFrog said:
I said that when Manning has protection and Carr doesn't, which is their state during the season..........sure Manning can be the MVP, break records, stuff he's done. He's got protection while Carr doesn't. There....they are very distinct.
However, when you put them under the same circumstances, having defenders in his face in practically not ime.........they are no different or rather, Manning's no better than Carr is.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
HoustonFrog said:
Not to nitpick, because I still believe in Carr I could not and would not compare him to Manning, but Manning had an INT that game, the refs just decided they were going to bone Pittsburgh out of it.
Manning looked horrible, plain and simple. His protection struggled but so did he when faced with aggressive, intelligent defense. And how the hell do you know that Carr doesn't watch film or stay after practice?
SBTexans08
Rookie
Kaiser Toro said:
A couple of you here are comparing careers. That isn't the point of the thread. The point is that under the same cirumstance of having defenders in your face, with bad protection.........Manning is no better than Carr.
SBTexans08
Rookie
jerek said:
So in essence..........when pressured, he looked like Carr...............underperformed by a grand scale.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
SBTexans08 said:
How can you call 290 yards, a TD a horrible game even when he was getting pounded?I don't care about the bad ref call. It is a team game and considering he got pounded he still had his team with a chance to win. You are comparing that the two acted the same when they get pressure. When you can show me where Carr showed poise enough to post these stats in a career worst game then talk to me. You can't have it both ways. Carr rarely puts up those stats on the lines or his best day.
As for the staying after practice. It was reported earlier this year that teammates were having problems with the fact that he didn't stay after practice to work with receivers and to watch extra film. He told reporters that he had family obligations and that staying after wasn't something that he did but that he would watch film at home.
SBTexans08
Rookie
Kaiser Toro said:
In the 4 games in which Manning was pressured with defenders in his face (same amount of time Carr has in the pocket game in-game out), he's had bad performances, no different than Carr.
2003 season AFC Championship game:
Loss to New England, very bad performance.
2004 season, game 1 on Thursday of the NFL season:
Loss To New England, very bad performance.
2004 season, divisional playoffs:
Loss to New England, ZERO TDs, extremely bad performance
2005 season, divisional playoffs:
Loss to Pittsburgh, bad peformance, loses in same fashion
The relevance of all those match ups is that he had pressure imposed on him and in all of them.........he couldn't handle that pressure. With no protection or limited time, he performs no different than Carr.
SBTexans08
Rookie
HoustonFrog said:
You're trying to disregard that bad call. That referee is going to be penalized heavily because of it. So for the sake of your argument in this thread.....no, you can't just disregard it and say it's not part of his performance.
It is sad to get 290 yards, a TD, and an INT which he was very fortunate to not be called as an INT and still not win the game! It was practically gift wrapped for him to do his thing. My GAWD.....Bettis.....BETTIS, my goodness....fumbles the ball at the two when the game was secured. Harper gave Manning and the Colts GREAT field position to win it, not tie it. Caus afterall.....Manning can do no wrong, right? LOL!! This gives Manning, "only the best QB, head, shoulders, waist, ankles above Carr", a chance to FINALLY win a game that gave him a run for his money. Even then....he doesn't win it. And that's having one of the best O-lines in the league, probably the best 3 WR tandem in the league, a superb running back and two pretty good TEs.
Your argument looks pretty futile my friend. And those stats you decided to mention are very deceiving. Manning went through hell Sunday and got a taste of what Carr has to deal with week in-week out.
The Preacher
Waterboy
HoustonFrog said:
I would rather he hold it than throw it to his only reliable receiver who is most likely blanketed by double coverage. I'm not sure what lessons other QB's have learned you're talking about. Maybe throw it away but the Texans are usually behind and if he thinks he can make a play and bring his team back, he'll hold it longer. He's never had the comfort of throwing it away and still feeling like his team could win. Peyton wasn't throwing it away at the end of the game yesterday-he had to bring his team back-result=more sacks.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
SBTexans08 said:
So 4 games in his career vs, 4 full years for Carr?3 of those games against the eventual SB winner. If he was so easily rattled then why didn't every team in the league attack him like Carr every game and why weren't his stats the same?You can't have it both ways and say his line is great all the time, EXCEPT in 4 games and then he has bad games. That isn't the way it works. His line and he had bad games in some games and his bad games are as good as some of Carr's best games. It is apples and oranges. Why doesn't he get the label as a guy who holds onto the ball too long and takes bad sacks?You never answered that. Why doesn't Manning get a label of staring down guys and not reading defenses right? There is no comparison except for 4 games that you can think of. Carr has regressed and just blaming the line is a sop out.
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
HoustonFrog said:
If the point you are making is Manning is better than Carr and still can't get the job done, then I understand what you're saying. But you've got to remember that he did throw a pick that should have ended the game, he was given new life by the head ref...
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
SBTexans08 said:
Seriously, I can't follow your thinking. Now you are saying that "how could he not have won with those stats when it was gift warapped?" TEAM game. Does he kick?Does he play defense?What is deceiving?He went through hell and still threw for a pretty good game and had his team on the brink of winning when a kicker missed it. He got them to s spot to go to OT. Even if you give him the interception he still LEAD his team. How is this going over your head. You have answered nothing. Your argument above went off an another tangent and is laughable. It is like arguing with Bubba Gump.
SBTexans08
Rookie
If my memory serves me correctly.......in the 2003 season when the Pats came here to Houston 2/3s down the season......the Texans with Carr at the helm took the Pats into overtime and the Pats just barely won with a field goal by Viniaterri.HoustonFrog said:
Carr gave the Pats a lot harder time than Manning did that year in the post-season, the eventual Super Bowl winner. LMFAO!!!
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Because Manning's line almost always does it's job and those 4 games are when they faced their toughest challenges and failed. It's really not hard to understand. The fact is that on those rare occasions that Manning's line fails, HE SUCKS, just like every other QB. When Carr gets protection, which is very rare, he does very well. Big surprise.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
TreWardTxn said:
Great but is the call his fault?No. Did he do what he could after the call?Yes
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
SBTexans08 said:
This is your thread and your words:
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.
So are we talking about career, the season, playoffs or one game?
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
SBTexans08 said:
So we are comparing Manning's peformance against playoff teams, in the playoffs, to Carr in the reagular season. Seems like a fair comparision to me.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
HJam72 said:
I really can't believe you people are so out there to be drinking the Carr kool-aid. Not one person has addressed his failure to improve. His problems holding the ball that has been discussed ad naseum by NFL honks. His ability to stare down receivers which was ridiculed on national TV. The fact that one of his lineman said he is not the leader of the team. How can this guy even compare to a guy like Manning. No one has answered me if Carr is close to Steve Young too because he got his tail handed to him in NFC Championship games before winning it all. Same with Favre. Under your type of history I could stick Ryan Leaf in the Colts Offense and he would be successful?Carr has shown nothing that approaches future greatness. Making excuses for his failures is a joke.
GP
Go Texans!
"How can you call 290 yards, a TD a horrible game even when he was getting pounded?" - houstonfrog
------------------------------
Because Manning normaly gets about four TDs a game and racks up nearly 500 yards of passing per game. This season was a little under his usual performance, and the last four games were just awful.
Going 13-0 was the worst thing that could have happened to this team. They hadn;t played a meaningful game in over a month, and it got the best of them. Throw in the Dungy tragedy (when he's ALREADY a subdued coaching personality to begin with) and you just had the makings for this sort of game.
That whole Colts team Sunday looked exactly like our team did all season long: Frustrated, harassed, and outcoached.
Dude is right: If Manning had an entire season of what he produced this past Sunday, there would have been a firestorm of activity in the Colts front office (about week 4) to fire coaches, assistants, offensive linemen, the water boy, the mascot, the liquored up kicker, anybody they could have thrown overboard to stop the bleeding.
But it happens to our team and it's all David's fault.
------------------------------
Because Manning normaly gets about four TDs a game and racks up nearly 500 yards of passing per game. This season was a little under his usual performance, and the last four games were just awful.
Going 13-0 was the worst thing that could have happened to this team. They hadn;t played a meaningful game in over a month, and it got the best of them. Throw in the Dungy tragedy (when he's ALREADY a subdued coaching personality to begin with) and you just had the makings for this sort of game.
That whole Colts team Sunday looked exactly like our team did all season long: Frustrated, harassed, and outcoached.
Dude is right: If Manning had an entire season of what he produced this past Sunday, there would have been a firestorm of activity in the Colts front office (about week 4) to fire coaches, assistants, offensive linemen, the water boy, the mascot, the liquored up kicker, anybody they could have thrown overboard to stop the bleeding.
But it happens to our team and it's all David's fault.
SBTexans08
Rookie
Kaiser Toro said:
Ummmm....look at what I said again, "my words".
My point is that when pressure is put on both QBs, they perform no different.
During the season Manning doesn't have the same pressure issues as does Carr. But....it's in the post-season for some reason, and against the Chargers this season, week16.....that when Manning had guys coming to rip his head off.........just as they do Carr every week...............he didn't look so Manning like. That's the point!
SBTexans08
Rookie
My goodness....if you have to go this far....I'm done with you. LOL...HoustonFrog said:
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
SBTexans08 said:
So basically we should look at every Hall of fame QB and see how they did when the team failed....Fouts, everyone and then take those specific games and say Carr is no different?Even though in the games when he did have time and he did have a chance to win he didn't get us there and still had the same stats and made the same mistakes?
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
SBTexans08 said:
What?Your point is that he didn't give his team a chance to win. Wrong.
Keep avoiding all the issues and keep attacking. It really is a great way to make a point.
SBTexans08
Rookie
Kaiser Toro said:
No....we are comparing how one "great QB" versus a "poor-excuse of a QB" does when they are being pressured.
Manning has lost games in the regular season to the Patriots, Chargers, Jaguars and other teams. The thing is that he stinks when teams come at him. How does Carr fare when teams come at him, imposing pressure on him with very limited time to make throws? He stinks! Same as Manning.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
I can address his failure to improve easily: he's had no protection for 4 years.
How do you make a chain stronger? You fix the weakest link. I can promise you that our weakest link is somewhere in that line. We can't improve this team as much by replacing Carr or DD as we could be fixing the line, or at least the weakest parts of it, anymore than we could improve the team by replacing D-Rob with a young Deion Sanders. You have to fix what's wrong, not improve what is already adequate or better. If you think David Carr is this team's weakest link, you are stuck on the one player fixes all train of thought and this is not basketball.
Too many people will always blame the QB when a team is bad, just like they will blame the President when the economy is bad (like Congress and circumstances don't have anything to do with it). Not talking about Bush or anyone in particular here, just making a point.
How do you make a chain stronger? You fix the weakest link. I can promise you that our weakest link is somewhere in that line. We can't improve this team as much by replacing Carr or DD as we could be fixing the line, or at least the weakest parts of it, anymore than we could improve the team by replacing D-Rob with a young Deion Sanders. You have to fix what's wrong, not improve what is already adequate or better. If you think David Carr is this team's weakest link, you are stuck on the one player fixes all train of thought and this is not basketball.
Too many people will always blame the QB when a team is bad, just like they will blame the President when the economy is bad (like Congress and circumstances don't have anything to do with it). Not talking about Bush or anyone in particular here, just making a point.
SBTexans08
Rookie
HoustonFrog said:
That's not my point. My point is the one I've been repeating far too many times. You keep bobbing and weaving it. That's the problem here. Not worth my time. Peace out!
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
gpshafer_1976 said:
Just goes to show that you do not want your CB's getting stabbed the night before by their wife. Just goes to show that an All-Pro kicker ain't automatic. Just goes to show that this game is and always has been about the W. If they had won would we be having this discussion? Not at all. Some how, some way Manning seems to win a lot more games than Carr. Better coaching, better skill players or a better defense all are contributing variables, but 15 wins in four years does not get you a ticket to a free ride like so many of this board want to give Fresno's favorite son.
SBTexans08
Rookie
HJam72 said:
For the record....I don't think Carr is the problem. I'm really not sure he is the problem since we haven't given him a competent O-line to be able to determine that. There's no question however that our O-line is a HUGE problem.