VY: Why people don't like him

I've been reading Skip Bayless here http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/060113 and this other article here http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/football/13617690.htm and it suddenly dawned on me why all the NFL pundits are downgrading Vince Young.

He's too good to be true.

Merrill Hoge is quoted as saying Vince's designed runs would get him killed in the NFL. He won't last till week 4. I ask myself: why would a pretty good ex-running back say such a thing? Well, could it be that if Vince CAN run in the NFL it somehow diminishes Merrill Hoge's accomplishments, whatever they were.

So map that across the spectrum of scouts and reporters and wise guys comment on Young. If he's THAT good, then every is taken down a notch. Maybe we don't want our heroes to be THAT much different than you and I. Bush looked great until Vince Young decided he and the Texas team should go ahead and win the Rose Bowl.

So they did.

Sounds crazy, but Vince Young makes the rest of the draft look mundane, the rest of the players are kind of ordinary. Who wouldn't resist that?

I understand all the reasons for not taking him in the draft--the profound investment in Carr that seems to go beyond the rational; the eagerness for Bush thinking he might be Gale Sayers instead of Metcalf or any one of a dozen other pretty good RB who were light and quick in college, before they faced big league competition of the NFL; Casserly's reputation; the will to not do anything TOO IMAGINATIVE and thus run the risk of showy failure; the McNair position of "I don't know but everybody says . . ."

But I'm telling you this, passing on Vince Young with the first pick is an invitation to an ocean of regret. It's worse than trading Favre. It's stupider than the Herschal Walker trade. It the kind of conventional, inside-the-box thinking that reaches no higher than the middle of the road. It's the kind of mistake that will mark this franchise forever.

Think about the Oilers without Earl Campbell. Try to imagine the Oilers passing on Earl Campbell.

We don't want to go there. You take Vince. Maybe you keep Carr, just to be sure. You build the line and the D with the rest of the draft.

It's the only cautious, sensible solution.

Nighthawk said:

Think about the Oilers without Earl Campbell. Try to imagine the Oilers passing on Earl Campbell.

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This is, more than any other reason, why VY will be a Texan. McNair is not stupid. If the VY ends up hurting the Texans, his relationship with the City of Houston is over.

I think VY played awesome in the Rose Bowl, certainly a man among boys. I don't have a huge problem taking him as long as people realize it will be at least a year before he can play, and a few more before he starts to really play like an NFL QB.

Carry played in a pro-style offense in college, so he was comfortable dropping back to pass. VY always played in a shot-gun. Can't really run an NFL running game from a shot-gun only offense. So this will take time.

I will also say that any of the running QB's in the league, McNabb, Vick, all had to go through a transition where they went from thinking run first, to thinking pass first when they dropped back. This is partly because they were so good at running, but also because it was difficult for them to read defenses. This run first mentality held the team back, because the team had effectively no passing game, the passing game was the QB running.

Finally he won't be a man among boys, he will be a man among men. Meaning that he will be a good runner in the NFL, but he won't be able to shrug off tacklers like he did in college. NFL linebackers are faster and stronger than what he has faced. So while he still will be a good runner, he won't be able to run at will.

I think it will take a few years for him to develop into a pro QB, maybe, and not just a run-first QB. Nothing wrong with that as long as the team is willing to wait.

I think RB helps the team sooner, because Carr is not the problem, and he already has the prostyle offense down. But I can also see them trading the pick to get more draft choices.

Nighthawk said:

Think about the Oilers without Earl Campbell. Try to imagine the Oilers passing on Earl Campbell.

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A new point that hasn't been covered yet. Can't believe it.
Just to think about him in a uniform of one of the teams 2-5.... the stuff of nightmares.

1 Houston Oilers
2 Kansas City Chiefs
3 New Orleans Saints
4 New York Jets
5 Buffalo Bills

BTW, the Oilers (#17) even traded up with Tampa Bay that year to get him.

Nighthawk said:

I've been reading Skip Bayless here http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/060113 and this other article here http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/football/13617690.htm and it suddenly dawned on me why all the NFL pundits are downgrading Vince Young.
Wow...Skip Bayless, there's a logical straight shooter!
He's too good to be true.

Merrill Hoge is quoted as saying Vince's designed runs would get him killed in the NFL. He won't last till week 4. I ask myself: why would a pretty good ex-running back say such a thing? Well, could it be that if Vince CAN run in the NFL it somehow diminishes Merrill Hoge's accomplishments, whatever they were.

Surely you have to be joking. How 'bout it's his job to give his honest opinion. There are a lot of folks than can "run" in the NFL from the QB position...not too many survive it for long.

So map that across the spectrum of scouts and reporters and wise guys comment on Young. If he's THAT good, then every is taken down a notch. Maybe we don't want our heroes to be THAT much different than you and I. Bush looked great until Vince Young decided he and the Texas team should go ahead and win the Rose Bowl.

Nice pop psychology moment...Bush, however, had nothing to do with the 39th ranked defense in the country not being able to stop Young. Young helped Fresno St. stop Bush from getting 500+ yards about as much as Bush was trying to stop Vince.

So they did.

Sounds crazy, but Vince Young makes the rest of the draft look mundane, the rest of the players are kind of ordinary. Who wouldn't resist that?

I entirely agree with you...it sounds crazy.

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Notes in bold. Truth in lending...I think we should trade down to the 4 or 5 spot myself for picks and 1 or two immediate starters.

VY was a damn good college quarterback, and had one hell of a game.

But, in my opinion will never be a great NFL quarterback.

You cant run upright against NFL defenses anymore. Havent been able to since Eric D. He wouldnt last a half against Chicago's defense constantly wanting to run like he does. So then, you teach him to pass like a pro QB? Not going to happen. Too much time spent in the gun, and too much reliance his entire career on instinct. His "instinct" will be to run. If he does that, he wont last three years in the league because his knees will be destroyed. He is an ok passer in college, but that wont translate ... mark my words.

Reggie Bush on the other hand has more potential of becoming a star in this league. He is 200lbs, so not as small as some people think, and strong as hell.
Can flat out-run most players in the secondary, and makes DL 's and LB's miss in ways that make them look silly.

You cant kill what you cant catch.

I like VY, but do not think he will live up to the hype as a pro QB. Nice to see an H-Town kid do well in college and be able to set himself and his family up the way he has ... and from where he came. Nice story, but it ends soon.

oops!

oops #2...message board kicking my butt!

Nighthawk said:

Merrill Hoge is quoted as saying Vince's designed runs would get him killed in the NFL. He won't last till week 4. I ask myself: why would a pretty good ex-running back say such a thing? Well, could it be that if Vince CAN run in the NFL it somehow diminishes Merrill Hoge's accomplishments, whatever they were.

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Why does Hoge say this? Not because of the reasoning you give. It is because it has happened before. See Mike Vick. Everyone was saying the same things about him before he entered the NFL draft. His body is wearing down from the punishment he takes. For a quarterback to last in the NFL, he must be a pocket passer first and a runner second. Can Vince become a QB like this? I think he can, but it will not be an overnight process.

...(comp break down)

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I think its a little ridiculous for you to think that an ex-NFL running back saying that Young's running moves won't work on NFL caliber defenses is purely a jealousy act. VY will be a good NFL quarterback at some point in his career, I think that is pretty much agreed on. But to think that he will somehow be the best ever before he has even played 1 snap is simply wishful thinking.
People say that he has a poor throwing motion, and he does. Its not people afraid that his throwing motion is somehow better than others. Have you watched many of his highlights? A lot of his long balls are real floaters because of that half flip. That isn't as good as a proper follow through.
People say that he can't start immediately because he isn't comfortable taking snaps from under center, and again, thats true. Running all your plays in shotgun will really hurt your run game.
People also say that while he is fast, he tries to break tackles and in the NFL, that will get him hurt. Again, I don't see why you think that these detractions on him actually mean that he is better than the people detracting.

Anyway, my point is that for you to claim that a proven, distinguised ex-player/analyst will detract from Young because he's afraid his style will be too far superior is totally unfounded. These players know the game much better than you will, and I ahve to think that their insights are more credible than these conspiracy theories.

oops #3

oops #4

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I don't believe Vince Young is to QB's what Earl Campbell was to running backs. I don't even think he's close. That's why I don't select him with the #1 and that's why I wouldn't trade up from #17 ala the Oilers to get him.

What this all comes down to is "Do you believe?" We look at the highlights and the numbers and the opponents numbers and what the experts say and what our friends and fellow fans say and then it comes down to whether you believe that Vince Young is the real deal.

Now I believe that Reggie Bush is the real deal, I do not believe that Vince Young is the real deal. That's my right and you may look at the same set of highlights, stats, and comments and draw the exact opposite conclusion. That doesn't make you wrong (or right) just like my belief doesn't make me wrong (or right).

Until these guys are in the NFL and doing something against NFL defenses we don't know. I don't know, you don't know, and Merrill Hoge sure the hell doesn't know. It's just whether you believe or not. It has nothing to do with Merrill being in some way humbled by the mind boggling possibility that is Vince Young - Last son of Krypton. Nothing Vince Young ever does is going to put Merrill in his place. Nothing. Ever. Nice theory and all but I don't buy it.

I don't believe Vince Young is to QB's what Earl Campbell was to running backs. I don't even think he's close. That's why I don't select him with the #1 and that's why I wouldn't trade up from #17 ala the Oilers to get him.

What this all comes down to is "Do you believe?" We look at the highlights and the numbers and the opponents numbers and what the experts say and what our friends and fellow fans say and then it comes down to whether you believe that Vince Young is the real deal.

Now I believe that Reggie Bush is the real deal, I do not believe that Vince Young is the real deal. That's my right and you may look at the same set of highlights, stats, and comments and draw the exact opposite conclusion. That doesn't make you wrong (or right) just like my belief doesn't make me wrong (or right).

Until these guys are in the NFL and doing something against NFL defenses we don't know. I don't know, you don't know, and Merrill Hoge sure the hell doesn't know. It's just whether you believe or not. It has nothing to do with Merrill being in some way humbled by the mind boggling possibility that is Vince Young - Last son of Krypton. Nothing Vince Young ever does is going to put Merrill in his place. Nothing. Ever. Nice theory and all but I don't buy it.

Also, I think the media bias against Vince, is because they were so high on Bush all year. I mean he was all that, and a bottle of wine. And he still is. But Vince while not "better"(they play different positions and all) is a more attractive pick in this draft........... IMO of course.

I've also been making excuses for David Carr for the last 4 years. I've been saying all this time, the problem is not David Carr. I've also said, it doesn't matter who you our quarterback was, we wouldn't get any better than what we have. and for the most part.... that's true. But this guy is different.

He's like Vick, but Better. He's like Culpepper, but better. He's like McNabb, but Better. He's like _________ but better. (of course, this is my projection of him. If it's OK, for you to think Reggie hung the moon, then It's OK for me to think Vince Painted the sky Reggie set it in).

There is a problem though........... he ain't like anything you've ever seen in the NFL, so how do you coach that?? I don't buy the Let Vince be Vince thing, because he will get killed.

I don't think 2-14 is David's fault, but I don't think he's helped any either.

Nighthawk said:

I've been reading Skip Bayless here http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/060113 and this other article here http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/football/13617690.htm and it suddenly dawned on me why all the NFL pundits are downgrading Vince Young.

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I'm gonna have to back away from your initial premise. I am not sure that "all the NFL pundits" are downgrading VY.

Some think he is all that and two bags of chips, and some see him as a work in progress. And some as both. I think a lot of people don't know what to make of him because he doesn't resemble anyone else.

Also, prolly doesn't help his case that the Skipster likes him because with friends like that, who needs enemies. When I hear his grating whiny voice, I almost reflexively want to dismiss what he has to say out of hand.

Where would VY be without his skills as a running back ?
Where would Matt Leinert be without his skills as a running back ?

nunusguy said:

Where would VY be without his skills as a running back ?
Where would Matt Leinert be without his skills as a running back ?

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So?? What does that mean?

Given the fact that VY improved his passing this past year AND he could still run, I'd have to say that if he couldn't run he'd develop into an even better passer than he is today.

Anyway, it's a mute point b/c if I'm not mistaken....VY DOES have his running skills and can still pass accurately.

billtxus said:

Carr is not the problem, and he already has the prostyle offense down. But I can also see them trading the pick to get more draft choices.

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I agree with most of this post except the part about Carr having the prostyle offense down. I don't think he's even close. I think he's as baffled today as he was four years ago and it shows no sign of changing. He's taken a lot of heat, but a good percentage of it he either brings on himself or isn't able to elude. He doesn't know how to look off and he does not see the field well to find secondary receivers. When he runs he runs for the sidelines, which is no good to anybody.

Since both QBs will have to learn a new system it seems to me they start at almost the same point. My guess is that Young will learn quicker and progress faster than Carr. It may take a year, but that's about it. Carr's already taken four years of so-so performance. Isn't that enough?

Nighthawk said:

I agree with most of this post except the part about Carr having the prostyle offense down. I don't think he's even close. I think he's as baffled today as he was four years ago and it shows no sign of changing. He's taken a lot of heat, but a good percentage of it he either brings on himself or isn't able to elude. He doesn't know how to look off and he does not see the field well to find secondary receivers. When he runs he runs for the sidelines, which is no good to anybody.

Since both QBs will have to learn a new system it seems to me they start at almost the same point. My guess is that Young will learn quicker and progress faster than Carr. It may take a year, but that's about it. Carr's already taken four years of so-so performance. Isn't that enough?

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It's enough for me.

While I understand that Carr is not our only problem (or even our biggest problem), I think that we can shore up many of those other areas through FA and 2nd-4th rounds. I think w/ the #1 pick, you should go w/ VY b/c he is an upgrade from Carr. While he isn't our BIGGEST problem, he is A problem. Why not upgrade that w/ a special, athletic QB that can learn quickly and will work very, very hard and will come thru for his fans.

One of his greatest attributes is his heart-of-a-champion type attitude. Can't people see that he will feed off of that from his hometown. He has too much pride to let his hometown fans down. While his being from Houston means absolutely nothing as far as whether or not he is a good prospect; but the argument is that it means a lot to HIM. He loves Houston. He has not only the talent but also the work ethic that makes me believe he will not accept failure and w/ his hometown fans supporting him, he will improve what he needs to improve upon and make himself a better player. Which will make us a better team.

How is Vince better than Culpepper?

Daunte is twice as strong as Vince, much bigger, and almost as good of a runner.

tulexan said:

How is Vince better than Culpepper?

Daunte is twice as strong as Vince, much bigger, and almost as good of a runner.

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I don't see how you can say that. As is posted in another thread:


Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6? 5? 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Daunte Culpepper (last college season) Drafted 11th, 6?4?. 264 lbs:

3690 passing yards
73.63 completion percentage
402 attempts for 296 completions, 9.2 av yards per attempt
28 passing TDs with 7 INTs
141 rushes for 463 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Culpepper is bigger in terms of weight. That just means that VY is slimmer (he's still 230lbs) and more mobile. It looks like VY has a lot more rushing yards and a LOT better avg yards per carry than Culpepper did. Don't see how you can say he was almost as good a runner either.

AustinJB said:

I don't see how you can say that. As is posted in another thread:


Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6? 5? 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Daunte Culpepper (last college season) Drafted 11th, 6?4?. 264 lbs:

3690 passing yards
73.63 completion percentage
402 attempts for 296 completions, 9.2 av yards per attempt
28 passing TDs with 7 INTs
141 rushes for 463 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Culpepper is bigger in terms of weight. That just means that VY is slimmer (he's still 230lbs) and more mobile. It looks like VY has a lot more rushing yards and a LOT better avg yards per carry than Culpepper did. Don't see how you can say he was almost as good a runner either.

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College is different from the NFL. Culpepper's game translates to the NFL better because he is a Pass first/Run second QB with a howitzer for an arm that is extremely accurate from long ranges. Culpepper has been averaging around 5 ypc in the NFL and getting about 400 yards rushing every year and once 600 yards rushing. He is a very mobile quarterback for someone who is as big as him.