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The Quarter that put the nail in the coffin!

Ibar_Harry

Ibar_Harry

All Pro
Yes, I like Carr, but I want to post some comments for all to think about and what they may have or did mean.

In the game Carr was allowed to call his own plays the Texans scored the most points ever in a quarter. It was commented the players were coming back to the huddle and telling David what was happening and what my work. To me those are very strange comments. Why?

1) Because that has always been the case with the great QB's. I'm certain Payton listens to his players comments and makes adjustments if he thinks the situation warrants it. He was affectively leading the ball club and the players were responding. They were acting as a team trying to help each other succeed.

2) I have always felt the QB has a better feel for what is happening and how they see the field. The QB's view is not the same as what is seen from the press box. What is open from a view over the top is not necessarily what is open from the QB's view. Much has been made of Carr not working after hours, but was that because he never was a part of the game panning and not allowed to participate? Remember, when he goes to Pendry and makes suggestions for the Jags game which were successful. Was this staff such a dictatorship that only the coaches had input into what was going to happen? Did they live in their own little tight sancturary? If you are not going to have any input in the process, why would you put in extra time?

3) After Carr was highly successful the coaches took back over and we proceeded to generate little if any offense and wound up loosing the game. Carr appeared never again to be allowed to call his own plays. I have always been a firm believer in the QB's calling their own plays with occassional input from the sidelines. No one sees the field like the QB. The QB is going to call what he thinks will work. The side lines between series or time outs are where you discuss what might be being missed. I think we would have a lot fewer delay calls if we let Carr call his own game. When the QB is calling his own plays the players know who the leader is. They know the QB is not a coach's robot. Was Carr not allowed to be the leader of the ball club?

Many of you can take this further than me, but I'm simply trying to get people to thing about that game. It was a glimmer of what this ball club might be and what Carr might be. With all the success they had in that Quarter, why did the coaching staff switch what they were doing? Did some one suggest allowing David to call his own plays and was told that was doomed to failure only to be proven wrong? The more I think about that game and what happened the more I wonder if that was the nail in the coaches' coffins. To me that one game really caused a lot of eye brows to be raised.

Please, this is started as a not love or hate Carr post, but rather what has the coaching staff been thinking all these games. I think you could comment similarly on defense. Do any of you think Reeves had anything to do with this occasion? Most of the comments I'm hearing out of the Texans organization seems to be implying that it appears to have been a coaching problem not a Carr problem. Last, but not least, how many of you are in the camp that wants your QB to call his own plays? How do want your QB of the future to be treated and what do you want him to be responsible for? Again, I'm using Carr as an example in part, but I think there is really more to this story. Have at it!!!!!!!!!!
 
Good points. I think David Carr can become a successful QB in the NFL, but he hasn't had the coaching and the blocking. That's why I'm hoping Linehan or Kubiak gets the job, they would improve him tremendously
 
Ibar_Harry said:
Yes, I like Carr, but I want to post some comments for all to think about and what they may have or did mean.

In the game Carr was allowed to call his own plays the Texans scored the most points ever in a quarter. It was commented the players were coming back to the huddle and telling David what was happening and what my work. To me those are very strange comments. Why?

1) Because that has always been the case with the great QB's. I'm certain Payton listens to his players comments and makes adjustments if he thinks the situation warrants it. He was affectively leading the ball club and the players were responding. They were acting as a team trying to help each other succeed.

2) I have always felt the QB has a better feel for what is happening and how they see the field. The QB's view is not the same as what is seen from the press box. What is open from a view over the top is not necessarily what is open from the QB's view. Much has been made of Carr not working after hours, but was that because he never was a part of the game panning and not allowed to participate? Remember, when he goes to Pendry and makes suggestions for the Jags game which were successful. Was this staff such a dictatorship that only the coaches had input into what was going to happen? Did they live in their own little tight sancturary? If you are not going to have any input in the process, why would you put in extra time?

3) After Carr was highly successful the coaches took back over and we proceeded to generate little if any offense and wound up loosing the game. Carr appeared never again to be allowed to call his own plays. I have always been a firm believer in the QB's calling their own plays with occassional input from the sidelines. No one sees the field like the QB. The QB is going to call what he thinks will work. The side lines between series or time outs are where you discuss what might be being missed. I think we would have a lot fewer delay calls if we let Carr call his own game. When the QB is calling his own plays the players know who the leader is. They know the QB is not a coach's robot. Was Carr not allowed to be the leader of the ball club?

Many of you can take this further than me, but I'm simply trying to get people to thing about that game. It was a glimmer of what this ball club might be and what Carr might be. With all the success they had in that Quarter, why did the coaching staff switch what they were doing? Did some one suggest allowing David to call his own plays and was told that was doomed to failure only to be proven wrong? The more I think about that game and what happened the more I wonder if that was the nail in the coaches' coffins. To me that one game really caused a lot of eye brows to be raised.

Please, this is started as a not love or hate Carr post, but rather what has the coaching staff been thinking all these games. I think you could comment similarly on defense. Do any of you think Reeves had anything to do with this occasion? Most of the comments I'm hearing out of the Texans organization seems to be implying that it appears to have been a coaching problem not a Carr problem. Last, but not least, how many of you are in the camp that wants your QB to call his own plays? How do want your QB of the future to be treated and what do you want him to be responsible for? Again, I'm using Carr as an example in part, but I think there is really more to this story. Have at it!!!!!!!!!!
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Finally someone with common sense, ok you have good points, When Carr Called the plays against the Cardinals we scored 24 in the 2nd quarter, Give Carr one more year to prove himself, trade the number one pick for the 3rd pick from tennesee and 2nd rounder so we can get more useful players like D'Brick, Max Jean Giles, A TE, a DB, C'mon I know reggie bush and Vince Young sound tempting, but what do we want,someone that has a lot of talent, or someone that we desperatly need thats the best of his postion in the draft?
 
Good points, and ive been wondering the same thing. Im just praying that whoever we bring in next will give Carr that freedom.. at least as long as he keeps producing.
 
I think that the lack of trust in Carr from the coaching staff is another example of how he was not coached properly. I'm confused why it took 4 years to let him call his own plays and why when he was successful they didn't let him continue. If they let him call his own plays and he failed miserably then they would have a case to call the plays for him, but if he was successful, why not let him call the plays? That is part of the growing process for a quarterback and it seems like they were diliberately trying to stunt his growth as a player. I believe this coupled with the vanilla play selection has resulted in poor and inconsistent performance.

David is a gunslinging quarterback, and when you limit him to only throwing 5 yard hitches or screen passes, you are not maximizing his abilities.
 
Unfortunately, this team has had the reins on ever since inception. Capers play to the vest style is barely understandable in young athletes these days who are used to domination at every level. I am encouraged by the loyalty of the players who I'm sure have wanted to go off on the coaches for some time. Most are still young so they stayed quiet and the vets knew the talent wasn't there to expect winning consistently so they just collected their checks and kept quiet. After 04' the training wheels should have come off and when the losing came the jawing on the sideline finally erupted. This team has the talent with a few more players to be very successful. I expect a major turnaround if the basic building blocks are put in place(o-line in particular) and to let Carr go at this point would be difficult considering you still can't be sure what you have. It takes a few years normally for a QB to adjust to the speed of the NFL and unless you can get a high first round pick for him I think you have to build the team in other areas. The changes are starting to take place and I'm sure a new HC with a good def. coordinator will do marvels for a team with guys who will become vets over the next year or two. It's unfortunate it took a year like this one to expose all our weaknesses but serious changes were needed in the coaching department to take it to the next level.

As for Carr his development has been slower because he hasn't had the time in the pocket to understand what his options were and then grow from the mistakes that would ensue. Nuff Said except for that prior monologue.
 
Ibar_Harry said:
Yes, I like Carr, but I want to post some comments for all to think about and what they may have or did mean.

In the game Carr was allowed to call his own plays the Texans scored the most points ever in a quarter.
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One pretty good quarter in 16 weeks. Great. Let's give him an 8 million dollar bonus.
 
Exactly, no bonus just a thank you but the experiment is over. Also i keep hearing that drafting Reggie Bush is gonna make us superb and it might ,but were not going to the playoffs in one year. We will have to wait at least a year be it with Bush and Carr or Vince and D.D.
 
wow.. totally missed the point guys. its about potential, and laying the blame where it belongs.

If Carr can play that well when the coaches arent controlling the playcalling, and its all on his shoulders.. then how can you say for sure that he isnt worth the bonus? He showed, in that one quarter, that there could be alot of talent being repressed by bad coaching.
 
I appreciate some of you taking the time to look at the whole picture. It seems like a lot of coaches want to do the play calling, but I still believe the QB is the person who can be most effective at doing that. Certainly one of the best right now is Payton and he does call his own playes and then some. Montana called a lot of his own plays in the later parts of a game. The great old timers called most of their plays. Of course Landry is the father of the opposite view. Walsh I believe liked to call the 1-15 or so plays from a cheat sheet which they did not deviate from regardless of what happened on the previous play. There are different schools of thought, but I believe the QB has to call his own plays if he is to become the leader of the team.

I strongly feel the QB sees the field differently from his position on the field. The QB also gets quick feedback as to what is happening and can process that information when deciding what the next play will be. He can use it to set up a play down the road. The defense is moving people and placing them in positions to block as well as make it difficult for the QB to find his receivers as well as deliver the ball to them. The coaches from the press box have a totally different perspective and I really feel they were trying to run plays that seemed impossible to the QB. Again, the perception is totally different. A strong indication of that is what Carr did when he called his own plays. What you see is what you can get.
 
Grid said:
If Carr can play that well when the coaches arent controlling the playcalling, and its all on his shoulders.. then how can you say for sure that he isnt worth the bonus? He showed, in that one quarter, that there could be alot of talent being repressed by bad coaching.
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After 4 years I'm not willing to risk the future of the franchise on a good quarter of play, thanks. He had his chances to excel and he didn't. End of story. Others have in the same lousy offense with the same lousy coaching.
 
Oh he had his chance? Behind the worst line in the league with a coaching staff that just got fired... but he had his chance?

boy.. I wish id have known you when you were a kid. That day when you were learning to ride a bike id have ripped off your handle bars, flattened your tires.. cut your chain.. pulled the stuffing out of your seat and bent all your spokes.. then when you couldnt ride it id have sent you into the house and told you "you had your chance"
 
Nighthawk said:
After 4 years I'm not willing to risk the future of the franchise on a good quarter of play, thanks. He had his chances to excel and he didn't. End of story. Others have in the same lousy offense with the same lousy coaching.
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The ONE time Carr had free reign on playcalling in 4 years he breaks a franchise record. Who has EVER excelled at the QB position with an O line as horrible as this one and with only 2 real threats at WR? What has Steve McNair done since losing Eddie George and Derrick Mason? What did Favre do this season without Walker, Green, and Davenport?
 
I'm in the, "Let him call his own plays or your fired!!!" club. I mean it. It works, so freaking do it!
 
Grid said:
Oh he had his chance? Behind the worst line in the league with a coaching staff that just got fired... but he had his chance?

boy.. I wish id have known you when you were a kid. That day when you were learning to ride a bike id have ripped off your handle bars, flattened your tires.. cut your chain.. pulled the stuffing out of your seat and bent all your spokes.. then when you couldnt ride it id have sent you into the house and told you "you had your chance"
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yeah? You gonna do that every week for four freakin' years?
 
One half in four years against the Cardinals after Reeves was hired to be a consultant. Yes the Earth moved on its axis. David played arguably is greatest half as a pro from a leadership standpoint. But it still does not show us a two consecutive game work of an above average QB.

Cut him, resign him and bring in a veteran QB to replace Banks. The team can get much better with a new staff, scheme, competition, rookies and free agents. I will hold my breath that DC will get substantially better with these changes as well. But to resign him as the current option suggests, especially the three year option, is blind ignorance.

Please come out VY, we need the leverage.
 
Kaiser now this is an interesting take and sure to piss off the Vince/Bush wafflers. Young used as a leverage tool to get the better QB back at a discounted price. I like it, but do you think it would actually work. the 2yr 5.5option is looking a lot more likely and would still give other teams the thought we may take Bush or Young.
 
Coach C. said:
Kaiser now this is an interesting take and sure to piss off the Vince/Bush wafflers. Young used as a leverage tool to get the better QB back at a discounted price. I like it, but do you think it would actually work. the 2yr 5.5option is looking a lot more likely and would still give other teams the thought we may take Bush or Young.
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As a former basketball agent, college coach and spending time with NBA GMs, Directors of Player Personnel and Coaches everything is on the table when it comes to resigning players. With Reeves and Cass in there you have the good, bad cop set up for McNair. I can live with the two year extension, but Kubiak has to be in place.
 
You use to be a b-ball agent interesting might send you a PM to get some information for my cousin who would like to do that. Onto the thread at hand though, I could see it happening, but it would be a pretty crappy way to treat Vince. Not that I care cause he will still get 50-55M from whatever team he ends up with. I just say the two year option for trade down value, but I would guess after the trade is made with Kubiak in the mix then Carr would be signed to a longer extention during the 07 offseason.
 
Coach C. said:
You use to be a b-ball agent interesting might send you a PM to get some information for my cousin who would like to do that. Onto the thread at hand though, I could see it happening, but it would be a pretty crappy way to treat Vince. Not that I care cause he will still get 50-55M from whatever team he ends up with. I just say the two year option for trade down value, but I would guess after the trade is made with Kubiak in the mix then Carr would be signed to a longer extention during the 07 offseason.
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It is up to Vince to come out and have his people weigh the options until 1/15. We will not be able to have our coach in place until 1/16 at the earliest. Waivers begin 2/23 and 2005 contracts officially expire on 3/2.

I will admit I am not sure what type of back door latitude is offered in this finite space, but I hope it is being investigated by the Texans.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
I can live with the two year extension, but Kubiak has to be in place.
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You'll be a (slightly) dissapointed fan, I think. Casserly has stated that he'll be giving Carr the 3 year extension. I think Kubiak will be in place though, so that may make you a little happier.
 
TexanSam said:
You'll be a (slightly) dissapointed fan, I think. Casserly has stated that he'll be giving Carr the 3 year extension. I think Kubiak will be in place though, so that may make you a little happier.
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I will not the be the only one.
 
Nighthawk said:
yeah? You gonna do that every week for four freakin' years?
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yes.. and after 4 years when you havent figured out how to ride a bike with flat, bent tires and no handlebars.. ill proclaim you a worthless bike rider and lock you in the attic :redtowel:
 
Nighthawk said:
After 4 years I'm not willing to risk the future of the franchise on a good quarter of play, thanks. He had his chances to excel and he didn't. End of story. Others have in the same lousy offense with the same lousy coaching.
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C'mon Grid. We should pick up a QB who does nothing but zone-read, or another QB who takes a quarter and half to get his head on straight after taking a little bump. That's just dumb.
 
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