PHILLYTEXANFAN
Saddle Up Partner
Anyone besides me wanna see a good competition between Myers and Jones for the Center job this TC, last thing we need is a repeat of Myers getting manhandled by opposing defenses
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Center Battle
- Thread starter PHILLYTEXANFAN
- Start date
You need to check the calibration on your time machine. i think you are a few years off.
Last edited:
PHILLYTEXANFAN
Saddle Up Partner
lol maybe A few clicks too far over
Your man... Pots and pans
Your man... Pots and pans
PHILLYTEXANFAN
Saddle Up Partner
I think Quessenberry and brooks can handle the OG spots personally
Your man... Pots and pans
Your man... Pots and pans
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I just have this feeling that OB is going to want a heavier center. Meyers not only gives up 20 pounds to Jones, but he gives up about the same to many of the D's he faces.
Maybe... but can Ben Jones call the blocking assignment signals as well as Myers?
PHILLYTEXANFAN
Saddle Up Partner
Worth a try. I fear Myers will be manhandled by not playing ZBS, I believe he was a product of that system
Your man... Pots and pans
Vince Wilfork.
Kris Jenkins.
You're a fool if you don't double team those two regardless who your center is. When no named nobodies start jacking up Myers, let me know.
At the same time, we spent a third round pick on Ben Jones. Shame we can't find a place on the field for him.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
It's strange that we're talking about replacing the center when that was not a failure point last season and LG was.
Also, please cite the last time Myers was manhandled. If you're talking about that Jets game five years ago, that's just silly.
Also, please cite the last time Myers was manhandled. If you're talking about that Jets game five years ago, that's just silly.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I was one of those guys that scolded Chris Meyers after the viral video of Kris Jenkins of the Jests whoopin', abusing his arse.... That said, I retracted my opinion about Meyers. He played very well.... The thing was, or the question asked should be was he good because of Kubiak's system???
Also it should be noted that Meyers is 34 years old.... Maybe it is time to move to Jones.
Also it should be noted that Meyers is 34 years old.... Maybe it is time to move to Jones.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
The problem with this statement is the belief that OB doesn't use a ZBS.
He does.
I expect Myers to continue to fit right in.
drs23
Veteran
Why does this keep getting brought up? I thought that was settled long ago.
Shheeesh.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
Silly question, surely everyone wants to see a TC battle at every position. Whether that be Chris Myers, Derek Newton, or JJ Watt.
It's one of the key things that Kubiak wasn't capable of instigating, ever.
Amobi Okoye didn't have to compete, the starting job was his no questions, same went for Kareem Jackson (first couple of years), if the resources invested made a battle embarrassing, you didn't get one.
It's something I'm hoping well see a huge change in.
Would you ever have seen Kubiak make a big QB signing in FA and then invite controversy by using a first day pick at the same position, knowing at least one would fail? Of course you wouldn't, but Seattle are World Champs.
It's also one of the reasons why we failed to develop talent on the Oline to replace the likes of Smith, Walter, brisiel etc, if you aren't de facto #1 you don't get the reps to be ready to step in under Kubiak. Caldwell may have fixed the LG spot already had that not been the case, that swing tackle we had for years (forget his name) may have fixed the RT spot 3 years ago but no. Starters were starters.
I think this explains the incredibly poor record we have in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, if your draft status didn't earn you a starting spot, you sure as hell weren't about to threaten an established vets place in the team.
It's one of the key things that Kubiak wasn't capable of instigating, ever.
Amobi Okoye didn't have to compete, the starting job was his no questions, same went for Kareem Jackson (first couple of years), if the resources invested made a battle embarrassing, you didn't get one.
It's something I'm hoping well see a huge change in.
Would you ever have seen Kubiak make a big QB signing in FA and then invite controversy by using a first day pick at the same position, knowing at least one would fail? Of course you wouldn't, but Seattle are World Champs.
It's also one of the reasons why we failed to develop talent on the Oline to replace the likes of Smith, Walter, brisiel etc, if you aren't de facto #1 you don't get the reps to be ready to step in under Kubiak. Caldwell may have fixed the LG spot already had that not been the case, that swing tackle we had for years (forget his name) may have fixed the RT spot 3 years ago but no. Starters were starters.
I think this explains the incredibly poor record we have in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, if your draft status didn't earn you a starting spot, you sure as hell weren't about to threaten an established vets place in the team.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
There isn't a team in the league that follows that model.
That is charitably called a stretch. 3rd round QBs no matter what day they fell on have never been considered inviting controversy and the Seahawks thought they were drafting a backup QB. Matt Flynn was brought in to compete with Tarvaris Jackson.
You need an example of someone more talented the Kubiak Texans held back to substantiate your assertion.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Jones made Newton look like an All-Pro. I'm sorry, but unless he's night and day better at C than he is G he's not the answer. I know he was a C in college, but you'd think he'd pick up the G position after a couple years.
It really sucked Q went down last year. I'm looking forward to see him rebound this camp and win a spot
It really sucked Q went down last year. I'm looking forward to see him rebound this camp and win a spot
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
That is difficult given that my assertion is that we've seen players' development hindered to the point where they never reached their talent potential.
However, I believe the FO leak earlier this season about the failure to rotate players, can be construed as evidence that it is not just me who sees this as having been a problem.
Earl Mitchell didn't get enough reps behind Shaun Cody, whilst. Chris Jones went and started for New England having barely seen the field for us.
Foster was held back for 3/4 of a season behind who exactly, and then Ben Tate has been criminally under utilised to the point where we've ran Foster into the ground just because he was in 'the doghouse' during a season when he remained relatively healthy.
I've not been one to hound Kubiak, I think he moved the club to a new level over his tenure (it was definitely time to move on though), I just see this as having been a failing he had. He never trusted young players with few reps, and subsequently they never got enough reps to develop.
Your first point, yeah, you're right, it's a league wide thing, not that it necessarily makes it right. If your first round draft pick isn't ready to play week 1, don't throw him to the wolves anyway, find someone who can play and feed him in gradually.
In fact I think the NFL as a whole is roundly failing in the area of talent development, when you reach the pros, due to the salary cap and roster limitations, it's sink or swim straight away when in other sports you find lots of players who take a few years of extremely uneven play before finding their feet at the top level.
I'd love to see some kind of reserve league added for development, keep them seperate from the actual roster, play maybe 4 or 6 games a season against other reserve teams, and see how they get on, maybe be able to activate one or 2 per season to the active roster and for the rest they just have to wait till the following TC to try and battle it out. Would give more young players a chance to get better IMHO.
I always respect your opinion ICAK, but sometimes you look for a little too much "proof" considering we're discussing a game where secrecy and schadenfreude are king. It's very rare you'll get the true spin on what's going on behind the scenes in a varifiable manner. Look at some of the rubbish posted as 'news' on NFL.com and it's little more than speculation from the same outside position as we get with maybe a little more access to Chinese whispers than what we get as lay-fans.
I thought Ben Jones did a fine job. Give him the starting job & he'll grow into it. I think it should have had the job over Wade Smith for sure. Rotating in & out of the game as a rookie I thought he did as well as Brooks. Different, but for what he did, he did well.
I'm not saying he should be a lock for the LG spot, if Ques is going to be in competition for the position, let them battle it out. But I think Q & Brennan should be battling for the RT job.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I'm not certain what you're seeing, man. Smith had a rough year, but Jones wasn't close to beating him out or anyone else along the oline. Saying he did just as well as Brooks is crazy. Brooks was one of the better of the bunch towards the end of the season. Playing next to Newton is what hurt him.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I am not against speculation and hopes. I am just wary of building a storyline out of smoke which over time becomes bricks through repetition.
I'll second this.
Most C's in college start out playing OG for a couple of yrs and learn the OL calls. Then when the vet C starts making too much $$$$ they let him walk in FA and the young guy takes over at C. (See Unger for the Seahawks/Deitrich-Smith Packers etc....)
Last year, yes. Brooks looked much better at the end of the year than he did to start... most likely due to not having to rotate in & out of the game all year.
Ben Jones didn't get to play until mid year & then he was rotating in & out with Wade. As bad as he may have looked, Wade played so poorly, imo, that he shouldn't have been allowed on the field unless it was because of injury. I'd have cut him before the season started because nothing I saw in 2012, or the 2013 preseason had me believing he could play anywhere close to his cap number.
But... when I say Ben Jones looked as good as Brooks, I was talking about in 2012 when they were both rotating in & out of the OL. Different, but relatively equal development. If it were me, Brooks would have started on the Left side & Ben would have started on the right side.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Still don't know what you're watching. He was even worse in 12 than 13. The only thing that kept the rotation going was Brooks' inconsistency. In 2012 Brooks was bad for MA's. Jones just flat out got whooped more times than not.
Agree to disagree
dream_team
Hall of Fame
I like Earl, and think he is underrated in TT, but he's not much better that Shaun Cody IMO. He has the potential to be, but not quite there yet. And the only reason Chris Jones started in NE was due to injuries. It's not like he "took over" the starting job. The Pats were also 3rd from last in rushing defense, so was he even playing well?
How do you know Foster was ready to play in this league when he was first signed? Arian himself said he had alot to learn. Lets not assume Foster would have been successful from day one. Who knows, maybe the only reason Arian was successful was because Kubiak waited until he was ready?
Are you contradicting yourself a little there? You first say Kubes didn't trust young players. Then you say if the young guy isn't ready to play, don't throw him into the wolves?
I agree with you here, and it is due to the salary cap. Because of the cap, just about every team MUST heavily rely on the rookies they just drafted to contribute, and contribute right away!
I'm not worried about the oline. Personally I want to see quess at RT with some good competition behind him pushing and the best out of jones, Brennan Williams and others at LG.
Don't care what blocking scheme we use.
Thing about learning to zone block is that you can carry over a lot of those techniques to a man blocking scheme. Not sure what we'll ultimately run, but to me it doesn't matter.
Don't care what blocking scheme we use.
Thing about learning to zone block is that you can carry over a lot of those techniques to a man blocking scheme. Not sure what we'll ultimately run, but to me it doesn't matter.
We will see, maybe Meyers can add a little weight in order to transition form ZBS to a different scheme?
Your dude... Forks and spoons.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Jones has shown zilch to indicate he is anything close to equal to Myers. A lot of Duane Brown's slump this season was watching out over the LG.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Maintaining same weight does not transition well from one scheme to the other. And increased weight may not transition to the maintenance of the original scheme.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Hasn't most of Jones game experience come at LG? Cannot compare him to Myers at center; it would have to be from training as a center.
Myers' cap number is nowhere near bad enough to consider cutting him with a brand new head coach. If he were in the NFL the last 4 years & had the inside line at a guy he knows/trusts to handle that position (pretty important position) maybe.
But no way I can see us cutting Myers.
Scooter
Funky
he's gotten some quality time over the past two years at both right guard and left guard, and to be honest, i havent seen anything from jones that i would call starter material. not very physical, no pop off the line, and way too many mental mistakes for my liking. maybe that was being out of position or the role didnt allow for much "gel", but i just dont see it in jones.
Porky
Hall of Fame
Myers is starting to get a bit long in the tooth, but I expect him to start this year for sure and probably next year. After that, we'll see. He has been one of the best centers in the NFL over the past several years.
Competition is good and I don't mind anyone having to compete for a job but it's a real stretch to say Ben Jones has a legit shot at the starting C spot.
Jones looks like a competent career backup/spot starter to me. Having said that, if he works hard maybe he is the heir apparent there. Time will tell.
Competition is good and I don't mind anyone having to compete for a job but it's a real stretch to say Ben Jones has a legit shot at the starting C spot.
Jones looks like a competent career backup/spot starter to me. Having said that, if he works hard maybe he is the heir apparent there. Time will tell.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
For those that are not aware, Myers had offseason arthroscopic elbow surgery.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
WOW!! That's actually is huge Doc... As someone that played O-Line, we understand what it means for an offensive lineman to explode off the line but more importantly jab that defensive lineman (violently) with full effort to effect their rush..
What kind of repair time (i.e. elbow full strength/extension) are we talking about? 6-8 weeks? 3 months?
As an aside, the Texans should be looking for another Center anyway, given Myers age. No?
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Wow. I missed that one. Could be important.
Within the next couple of years if Jones is no good. Myers was still playing at a good level, but his pass blocking dipped a bit possibly due to Wade's weak play.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Most elbow problems can be handled by conservative non-operative approach. Only 5-10 require surgery.
If you remember back in I believe it was Nov of last season, I reported that he was having significant elbow problems which concerned me for a center who requires repetitive pushing against resistance. He was evidently receiving concentrated treatment............but no rest, which is one of the most important components of the conservative approach. Not resting the elbow could have resulted in nothing but aggravation and extension of the injury. And following failed conservative treatment, surgery was decided on.
BTW, pass blocking is much harder on the elbows than run blocking since your arms can be kept more controlled central to the body.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
3 months is probably a good bet. But since we don't know the exact pathology or exact procedure we can't prognosticate exact level of performance return. Tennis elbow release? chipped off cartilage? ligament repair? arthritis?..............none of these are what you would want to have in your starting center.
Here's a great interview with Chris Myers.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Thanks for posting. Great interview. msr.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
All linemen are going at least ~310 or heavier this year. If Meyers has not bulked up from his 286 playing weight last year, he's going to be wearing a big target for the Ds......and the Oline will essentially have a funnel in the middle.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
He's going to become less capable because the guys around him are bigger?
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
All zone schemes aren't created equal.
From my understanding this will be more of a power type zone whereas kubiaks was more on the finesse side.
Kubiaks zone was more about getting the defense to move sideways whereas this zone (I think) will be more straight ahead type zone. More inside the tackles zone and less outside stretch type stuff
Not really commenting on Meyers effectiveness...just pointing out that while we are still going to use zone, it'll be different than what we've seen in the past. Less cutback stuff and more hit the hole.
And really I'd say most nfl teams run some variation of zone blocking.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I'll bow to your greater knowledge of the OL but from what I saw, Kubiak started a good deal removed from that pure finesse Gibbs zone, then moved to it when he brought Gibbs in, then when Gibbs left and Dennison came in, they moved back to more of a power oriented zone with a lot of stuff up the middle. And I think you could see that with the drafting of someone like Brooks.
I don't think there's going to be huge departure in what the OL is going to be asked to do from what it was being asked to do.
But... like I said... you know more about OL play than I do.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
No but on 3rd or 4th and 1, or goal line and short, where the ZBS shows its vulnerabilities and the straight power plays become so important.........the middle, which is then especially so important, will be at its weakest.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
He's been to the pro bowl twice (and likely would have gone last year but for being on a 2 win team) and Foster has led the league in rushing TDs with him at center. There's a long list of worse "weaknesses" than him not having a few extra pounds. Seems like a classic case of form over substance.