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Brees, Foles and .... yes, Keenum

M

maddogmrb

Rookie
I watched much of the Saints/Eagles game and was most interested to see how one of the best QBs and one of the highly touted up-and-coming QBs performed. Here are some observations:

1- BOTH struggled mightily when they were under heavy pressure.
2- Both did well when they weren't under heavy pressure.
3- It was obvious that both teams' good running games helped the passing games and made the QBs lives easier.
4- Foles tends to hold the ball LONGER than Keenum and takes sacks instead of committing turnovers. This was discussed as a GOOD trait.
5- Highly mobile Brees was also sacked under heavy pressure ... his fault???
6- BOTH made several errant passes.
7- Brees threw more int's than TDs ... if Keenum had done that every one here would be saying he's terrible.
8- Both QBs obviously have playoff caliber teams around them.

I have said all along that the injuries the Texans suffered along with lack of oline talent on the right side combined with INCOMPETENT coaching were the BIGGEST problems Keenum had last year.

I hope we get some excellent coaching and healthy players and improved oline and that Keenum gets another chance under those conditions.
 
So you take 2 subpar QB performances to show that we should give Keenum another chance? Keenum was great for us at first, then got worse fast as teams got some tape on him. I like him, but he has shown very little on why he should get a new chance. I am all for a real QB battle in camp with a real shot for everybody, but I don`t expect Keenum to come out on top of it if we get a good QB through draft or FA...
 
Note that no matter how bad they both played today (didn't watch it) at least one of them actually ended the day with a "W" which is something Keenum has yet to do. I'm sure O'Brien will give Keenum a fair and impartial look..... kind of like he did with those coaches he met with.
 
Just let it go bro, Case had more than enough chances to prove his worth. Time to move on, especially with the number one pick.
 
maddogmrb said:
I watched much of the Saints/Eagles game and was most interested to see how one of the best QBs and one of the highly touted up-and-coming QBs performed. Here are some observations:

1- BOTH struggled mightily when they were under heavy pressure.
2- Both did well when they weren't under heavy pressure.
3- It was obvious that both teams' good running games helped the passing games and made the QBs lives easier.
4- Foles tends to hold the ball LONGER than Keenum and takes sacks instead of committing turnovers. This was discussed as a GOOD trait.
5- Highly mobile Brees was also sacked under heavy pressure ... his fault???
6- BOTH made several errant passes.
7- Brees threw more int's than TDs ... if Keenum had done that every one here would be saying he's terrible.
8- Both QBs obviously have playoff caliber teams around them.

I have said all along that the injuries the Texans suffered along with lack of oline talent on the right side combined with INCOMPETENT coaching were the BIGGEST problems Keenum had last year.

I hope we get some excellent coaching and healthy players and improved oline and that Keenum gets another chance under those conditions.
Click to expand...
I'm afraid we've already seen that Keenum is not starting caliber, although he's ok as our backup. He was under a hard rush for a reason: Opponents learned to contain him in the pocket and blitz hard inside and he was helpless.
 
Everything is based on what came before it.

Keenum got a UDFA contract based on what he'd done in college.

He got a spot on the practice squad because he made an impression on someone.

He later made the team based on what he'd done on the practice squad and what he did in preseason and he jumped past Yates in reality if not on the depth chart for the same reason.

He got to start because of all of that put together.

Now he's had a bunch of starts and none of them were victories. Is it fair? No. Of course not. Some of those were losses because of things that Case had nothing to do with. Was Schaub the only reason we lost a bunch of his final games? No, not really. The NFL isn't fair. It's as close to fair as it can be and that's about all you get.

Team sport. They all succeed or go down together.

Case will probably come to OTA's and camp next year but if he does make it that far he'll have to impress O'Brien enough to overcome what he did this year. I'm not going to say its impossible but now Case is in a new and unfamiliar position. His past isn't something he can point to and leverage to his benefit. It's something he's got to make a new HC and complete stranger forget about.

That doesn't work to his advantage. I'll be surprised if he makes the team next year. I bet O'Brien is going to bring in all new QB's and his guys will make the team. Schaub will be cut and Yates and Keenum won't even make it out of training camp. They'll just be camp arms unless one of them does something really amazing that makes O'Brien take notice. It won't be something they do on the field either. It will have to come before that. They'll have to impress him with their minds.
 
The difference between those two guy's & Case Keenum .... They can read an NFL defense , Keenum simply cant.
 
I'm ok with Case coming back next season to compete for any QB job on the team, but I give it a 2% chance it'll be the starting job. Eventually, you have to realize the obvious, that every GM in the league knew this guy wasn't a starting caliber QB in the league.
 
Keenum is a legit backup who should improve as he gets more film study and work in. Why can't people be satisfied with that? That's a good career option for an undrafted player. Most didn't think he was capable of even that, but he proved he could step in if necessary.

He's just not the QB to take a team to the next level. Get over it!
 
If "we" didn't think we had a legit shot at the Super Bowl, I believe Tj would have been allowed to move on, & Case would have been our back-up. He'd have had more time to actually work on his game vs NFL defenses.

I also believe if Kubiak didn't shrink in the face of pressure, he'd have tweaked his offense to help Case. But as it was, he needed a win & he clung to what he knew.

Unfortunately, we're going to have at least 2 new QBs on our roster next season. A vet, a rookie, & I would imagine Case or TJ. The other two are going to be given the most opportunity to succeed. Case is going to have to do what he can just to survive & if he gets another opportunity to prove he belongs in this league... he'd better be ready.
 
If the JUGS machine breaks and we need someone to lob rainbows to AJ in practice he will have a job. Other wise "it's not you it's me...lets be friends" seems like the appropriate line.
 
I see a lot of people saying things like "Keenum proved he can't take you to the next level..." How can a QB have proved such mediocrity in his first 8 games as a starter?

1) He didn't have Owen Daniels, TEs are important for inexperienced QBs.
2) His run game support consisted of Ben Tate with broken ribs and PS guys.
3) The HC responsible for developing him was a lame-duck that didn't want him on the field in the first place and proved this by inexplicably sending Schaub back onto the field twice.
4) The Oline play was bad, to put it mildly

Considering the above, the Keenum experiment is inconclusive at worst. There's definitely a lot for him to work on, but if O'Brien is interested in working with him - there is nothing about Keenum's game that is irreparable.
 
burro said:
I see a lot of people saying things like "Keenum proved he can't take you to the next level..." How can a QB have proved such mediocrity in his first 8 games as a starter?

1) He didn't have Owen Daniels, TEs are important for inexperienced QBs.
2) His run game support consisted of Ben Tate with broken ribs and PS guys.
3) The HC responsible for developing him was a lame-duck that didn't want him on the field in the first place and proved this by inexplicably sending Schaub back onto the field twice.
4) The Oline play was bad, to put it mildly

Considering the above, the Keenum experiment is inconclusive at worst. There's definitely a lot for him to work on, but if O'Brien is interested in working with him - there is nothing about Keenum's game that is irreparable.
Click to expand...


There is nothing irreplaceable about Keenum. The kid never put the team on his back and carried them to victory. Make all the excuses you want, show me stats for other QBs who started in the league and it's still the same.
 
burro said:
Considering the above, the Keenum experiment is inconclusive at worst. There's definitely a lot for him to work on, but if O'Brien is interested in working with him - there is nothing about Keenum's game that is irreparable.
Click to expand...

I'll add that Kubiak didn't help him much by not calling a game conducive to what Keenum knows.

But this is the NFL, Not Fair League. If I'm a new HC I know I'm going to be judged on wins, both short & long term. Especially with the college mindset, you'd think he would want to find the best talent available & bring it in. Being a QB guru, I bet he wants to bring his own.

I would think he'll bring in a vet & draft a QB in the first round. Keenum becomes a third wheel. Whether Keenum can become someone who can get it done, is not the question. He just ran out of time.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'll add that Kubiak didn't help him much by not calling a game conducive to what Keenum knows.

But this is the NFL, Not Fair League. If I'm a new HC I know I'm going to be judged on wins, both short & long term. Especially with the college mindset, you'd think he would want to find the best talent available & bring it in. Being a QB guru, I bet he wants to bring his own.

I would think he'll bring in a vet & draft a QB in the first round. Keenum becomes a third wheel. Whether Keenum can become someone who can get it done, is not the question. He just ran out of time.
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I agree with all of this. The only point I was trying to make is that Keenum isn't a failure based on this season and with a fair shot could be starter in the NFL. Not with the Texans, but somewhere.
 
Keenum was arguably the best QB on our roster last year, I don't think anyone can really dispute that (note the qualifier arguably). If he can beat out the veteran signed next season, I bet he starts over a drafted rookie.
 
thitch said:
Keenum was arguably the best QB on our roster last year, I don't think anyone can really dispute that (note the qualifier arguably). If he can beat out the veteran signed next season, I bet he starts over a drafted rookie.
Click to expand...

He probably played the best game/s of our QBs last year.

Overall, I think Schaub would of graded out higher in the end. Certainly seemed to move the ball more consistently (even if he still failed to score TDs).

QBR had Schaub 32, Keenum 35.

Rating Keenum 27, Schaub 33.
 
Given the history of football in the city of Houston, Keenum
will be cut by Obrien, picked up by a team with a tradition of
winning and eventually propel them to a superbowl.

As a fan of Houston football, I'm accustomed to that type of
thing..
 
thitch said:
Keenum was arguably the best QB on our roster last year, I don't think anyone can really dispute that (note the qualifier arguably). If he can beat out the veteran signed next season, I bet he starts over a drafted rookie.
Click to expand...

I can argue against that.

For the first three games he was lights out. Teams got tape on him and he looked like an UDFA. I knew when Bob said he would start the rest of the season that we would not have another win. He proved completely inadequate against the blitz and his throws were nothing less than erratic.

In simple terms, he was absolutely awful. I'm not saying schaub is head and shoulders above him but when he was in there we consistently moved the ball and football was at least bearable to watch...even though we all knew we would lose.

Schaub needs to be cut. He has the Yips. He is damaged goods but there is no way keenum was better than him.
 
burro said:
I see a lot of people saying things like "Keenum proved he can't take you to the next level..." How can a QB have proved such mediocrity in his first 8 games as a starter?

1) He didn't have Owen Daniels, TEs are important for inexperienced QBs.
2) His run game support consisted of Ben Tate with broken ribs and PS guys.
3) The HC responsible for developing him was a lame-duck that didn't want him on the field in the first place and proved this by inexplicably sending Schaub back onto the field twice.
4) The Oline play was bad, to put it mildly

Considering the above, the Keenum experiment is inconclusive at worst. There's definitely a lot for him to work on, but if O'Brien is interested in working with him - there is nothing about Keenum's game that is irreparable.
Click to expand...


Maybe so but he did go 0-8 and at least 3-4 games he had the ball in his hands on the final drive to go ahead.

Maybe with some work he can swing it but I'm not sold on him being better than a rookie at this point.
 
Keenum reminds me a lot of Grossman (Not in a bad way either). Kid lives to unleash the dragon and not much else unfortunately. He's like the vice president of the "_____ It I'm Going Deep" club.

im-goin-deep-fan-club.jpg
 
speedfreek said:
Given the history of football in the city of Houston, Keenum
will be cut by Obrien, picked up by a team with a tradition of
winning and eventually propel them to a superbowl.

As a fan of Houston football, I'm accustomed to that type of
thing..
Click to expand...

Yep! That's just about the way things go around here. :brickwall:

Look, I don't know if Keenum got a "fair" shot or not and I don't think the blame for this team's failures can be put on one thing, like most on here seem to want it to be (coaching). The things that ruined this team the most were cutting/moving players over the last 2 years because of cap issues, injuries to key players (Cush, Manning, OD, etc), and an inability to replace those players through the draft or FA. If you think it was only the coaching ask yourself this; why did the same coaches win 2 divisional titles and have a 24 and 12 record the previous 2 years? What changed?

This team had been built to run the system that Kubes and Wade wanted. That team reached it's peak last season. The systems that each run are good systems with the right personnel in place, but they can't overcome the amount of players lost to the cap or injury that the Texans lost. Are some teams able to overcome these? They can if they have a "franchise QB." NE comes to mind with TB. Unfortunately for the Texans they didn't have one and they paid for it with a 2-14 record and a coaching change.

I don't know if Case will get another chance with O'Brien as the coach but I hope he does somewhere. I don't think the things people are saying he failed at can't be corrected. I just remember all the negativity around here for Kareem Jackson, Shilo Keo, and others when they were new to the League. Sometimes you just have to give players time to develop. JMO!
 
There is a reason why the kid was an UDFA and sat on the Texans practice squad for a year without 31 other teams showing even the slightest interest in him.

It happens every year. My son just graduated SFA on a football scholarship. They had a player up there that was a really great WR (Cordell Roberson), set all kinds of school records, and everyone was certain he'd be drafted. Not only did he go un-drafted, but the Browns checked him out and let him go, and I think he's barely hanging on the practice squad of the Bills right now.

The point being that great college players get overlooked and bypassed by the NFL every year. And it's not because the NFL is not interested, but rather they get to pick the cream of the crop, and many of these great college players are marginal in the pros.

Case is that type of player, as well. I wish him the best, but if you're pragmatic, you'd realize that he's been lucky to get the chances he's had so far.
 
thitch said:
Keenum was arguably the best QB on our roster last year, I don't think anyone can really dispute that (note the qualifier arguably). If he can beat out the veteran signed next season, I bet he starts over a drafted rookie.
Click to expand...

And? He was the best of the worst? Let's name a street after him while we're at it.
 
I think Keenum got "mental" towards the end. Wouldn't go so far as to say he's damaged goods or ruined, but he needs to regroup if he's going to stay in the NFL.

At first, he was slinging it. A 70% completion rate in his last two years of college and then looked decisive and accurate in the NFL preseason as well as his first couple of games of live action. And then his accuracy went to hell... At first I thought it was miscommunication between he and the receiver but came to realize he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and was slow getting the ball out. Teams having tape on him has nothing to do with missing a wide open receiver on a 10 yard pass. Sure, he still hit the occasional deep pass but those got more scarce. Keenum without his accuracy is man-on-the-street.

I *was* a fan but he's got to regroup if he wants to continue. It's up to him.....
 
Double Barrel said:
There is a reason why the kid was an UDFA and sat on the Texans practice squad for a year without 31 other teams showing even the slightest interest in him.

It happens every year. My son just graduated SFA on a football scholarship. They had a player up there that was a really great WR (Cordell Roberson), set all kinds of school records, and everyone was certain he'd be drafted. Not only did he go un-drafted, but the Browns checked him out and let him go, and I think he's barely hanging on the practice squad of the Bills right now.

The point being that great college players get overlooked and bypassed by the NFL every year. And it's not because the NFL is not interested, but rather they get to pick the cream of the crop, and many of these great college players are marginal in the pros.

Case is that type of player, as well. I wish him the best, but if you're pragmatic, you'd realize that he's been lucky to get the chances he's had so far.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure your point is valid all the time.
I'm sure you've heard of Kurt Warner.
He even got cut by the team that took him as an UDFA.
He then spent 4 years in the Arena League before given a chance to be a third stringer.

JFYI, Roberson got a call-up to the 53-man roster in Dec.

That doesn't necessarily mean either he or Keenum will ever start in the future.
It simply means that both need to show that they improve year over year to get a shot, and that is not a guarantee.
 
Keenum got progressively worse the more he played. He either could not or would not read a defense to save his life. IMO, he's not even good enough to be in the NFL, much less a starter. Honestly, for anyone to even mention him as a starter is surprising given what we saw.
 
HOU-TEX said:
Keenum got progressively worse the more he played. He either could not or would not read a defense to save his life. IMO, he's not even good enough to be in the NFL, much less a starter. Honestly, for anyone to even mention him as a starter is surprising given what we saw.
Click to expand...

As usual, what people observe can be quite different.
And most people never declared that he will ever become a bona-fide starter, especially of late.
Some, like me, simply say that the grade is incomplete.
 
76Texan said:
I'm not sure your point is valid all the time.
I'm sure you've heard of Kurt Warner.
He even got cut by the team that took him as an UDFA.
He then spent 4 years in the Arena League before given a chance to be a third stringer.

JFYI, Roberson got a call-up to the 53-man roster in Dec.

That doesn't necessarily mean either he or Keenum will ever start in the future.
It simply means that both need to show that they improve year over year to get a shot, and that is not a guarantee.
Click to expand...



While you can pull an example or two history would say that odds certainly arent in his favor. Keenum's best chance at becoming a legit starter in this league was to perform well in his 7-8 games and post a win or a few of them despite what was happening around him.
 
Reading some of the posts in this thread, you'd think that Texas was the one to legalize ganja on January 1.

I'm starting to wonder who is worse...the Keenum homers or the VY homers...and the VY homers have come out of the woodwork again, saying the Texans should sign him.

What world are these people living in?
 
IlliniJen said:
Reading some of the posts in this thread, you'd think that Texas was the one to legalize ganja on January 1.

I'm starting to wonder who is worse...the Keenum homers or the VY homers...and the VY homers have come out of the woodwork again, saying the Texans should sign him.

What world are these people living in?
Click to expand...

Just wait until Keenum throws a touchdown for another team in 2015, then they will really unleash the cougar fury!

Keenum was just a tease, not much more...
 
2012Champs said:
While you can pull an example or two history would say that odds certainly arent in his favor. Keenum's best chance at becoming a legit starter in this league was to perform well in his 7-8 games and post a win or a few of them despite what was happening around him.
Click to expand...

All of your points in this particular post are valid.

But then again, Keenum's odd has always been long.
The same goes for all the UDFAs and low round draft picks before and after him.
It's not anything new.
 
76Texan said:
I'm not sure your point is valid all the time.
I'm sure you've heard of Kurt Warner.
He even got cut by the team that took him as an UDFA.
He then spent 4 years in the Arena League before given a chance to be a third stringer.

JFYI, Roberson got a call-up to the 53-man roster in Dec.

That doesn't necessarily mean either he or Keenum will ever start in the future.
It simply means that both need to show that they improve year over year to get a shot, and that is not a guarantee.
Click to expand...

Kurt Warner is an obvious exception to a very long and established rule of history in the NFL.

You can name one example, and with that example we could come up with a list of thousands that were great in college but could not survive in the NFL.

The ratio would be like 1:10,000

Those are not favorable odds.

I'm not saying Keenum cannot or will not, but rather I'm just using NFL history as a guide to form an objective, non-emotional, unbiased perspective. I do not flavor my opinion with UH homerism or hometown hero stories, but rather look big picture and go from there.

Your point seems like we should just try to find a starting QB in the 6th round since that's where the Patriots found Tom Brady.

But, both the examples of Kurt Warner and Tom Brady share one thing in common: when they got their chances they made the most of it and proved why they were starting caliber QBs.

We have film on Keenum that does not seem to reveal the same career arch. We can assign blame to wherever to support Keenum and deflect blame, but in the end, I do not see any teams using that same mentality to sign him up.
 
Double Barrel said:
Kurt Warner is an obvious exception to a very long and established rule of history in the NFL.

You can name one example, and with that example we could come up with a list of thousands that were great in college but could not survive in the NFL.

The ratio would be like 1:10,000

Those are not favorable odds.

I'm not saying Keenum cannot or will not, but rather I'm just using NFL history as a guide to form an objective, non-emotional, unbiased perspective. I do not flavor my opinion with UH homerism or hometown hero stories, but rather look big picture and go from there.

Your point seems like we should just try to find a starting QB in the 6th round since that's where the Patriots found Tom Brady.

But, both the examples of Kurt Warner and Tom Brady share one thing in common: when they got their chances they made the most of it and proved why they were starting caliber QBs.

We have film on Keenum that does not seem to reveal the same career arch. We can assign blame to wherever to support Keenum and deflect blame, but in the end, I do not see any teams using that same mentality to sign him up.
Click to expand...

Don't forget about that 4th grader in Kentucky. He can sling it ya know? :kitten:
 
DB, if you wait, I can find many more examples.

I actually did. It was sprinkled in many of my posts.
 
76Texan said:
DB, if you wait, I can find many more examples.

I actually did. It was sprinkled in many of my posts.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing against UFDA's in the NFL. There are examples of great players that did not get drafted, and that's pretty easy to investigate.

But, for every successful UDFA, we can surely name many, many others that never panned out.

And yeah, I'm aware of Roberson getting called up in December. But, he's marginal, at best, and will be lucky to be invited to camp according to what I've been told. He is experiencing difficulty in learning an NFL playbook.

As far as Keenum, I hope they try to work with him to see if he can offer anything to the team, at least as a backup.

But surely you're not trying to debate that he's worth the starting job at this point.
 
First of all, saying that my point is to draft a QB in the sixth round is pure non-sense.

My point is that unless there's a bona fide franchise QB, you really need to make sure to use the number one overall pick to its best value; or even in certain case, the number two overall pick (in those rare years when there's one or two bona fide franchise QBs.)

History has shown that teams can and did fall in love with a prospect QB at number one overall, only to see them become a bust.
 
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