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Keenum vs Manziel (Sumlin System)

One honest question.

Let's put Keenum in behind center on September 14, 2013 against Alabama in College Station.

Do you think he could have done what Manziel did?

Also, Manziel is not my first choice for this team. It's Hundley and my second choice is Tajh Boyd.
 
htownfan32 said:
One honest question.

Let's put Keenum in behind center on September 14, 2013 against Alabama in College Station.

Do you think he could have done what Manziel did?

Also, Manziel is not my first choice for this team. It's Hundley and my second choice is Tajh Boyd.
Click to expand...

no doubt. keenum did more because he had less. but that's my opinion.
 
legacy_gt said:
no doubt. keenum did more because he had less. but that's my opinion.
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Okay, I can buy that. But he didn't do it against any defense of Alabama's caliber. Ok St. and Penn State are great teams, but to compare their defenses to Alabama's... Heck, even the one SEC team listed, Mississippi St., isn't exactly top tier SEC competition.
 
htownfan32 said:
Okay, I can buy that. But he didn't do it against any defense of Alabama's caliber. Ok St. and Penn State are great teams, but to compare their defenses to Alabama's... Heck, even the one SEC team listed, Mississippi St., isn't exactly top tier SEC competition.
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with sumlin at coach, aggie defense, and offense case could have done the same thing imo.

in matters with the Texans though, something needs to change. I'm rooting for TJ to start to be honest. That's more realistic at this moment.

If Schaub starts, he'll probably win Sunday but then lose again and we'll be back again with the same problem.
 
legacy_gt said:
Not sure if this was posted.

But it is very entertaining considering people would like to draft Johnny.
Check it if you haven't read it before.

http://sportswunderkind.com/johnny-manziel-system-qbs-and-the-ghost-of-case-keenum/
Click to expand...

I caught hell in the johnny manziel thread saying pretty much everything this guy said...Manziel isnt anymore talented than Case...i'd argue case is more talented than Manziel....the biggest thing that separates them in what they were able to achieve in terms of individual accolades and team success is talent around them and conference bias.

As i said in the manziel thread, people were enamored with his numbers and shocked that he was able to put up numbers in the mighty SEC...dont. Get me wrong, they were good for a freshman but certainly not heisman worthy. Over half of his TD's came against non-SEC teams. He performed great against Bama and was a big reason why they won...but its not like we hadnt seen that before. Hell, A&M's own Reggie Mcneal did the same thing to OU when they were #1 as a frosh.....and he came off the bench to do it.

the reality of it is is that conference bias is the single biggest thing
That screws up evaluating talent.
 
legacy_gt said:
with sumlin at coach, aggie defense, and offense case could have done the same thing imo.

in matters with the Texans though, something needs to change. I'm rooting for TJ to start to be honest. That's more realistic at this moment.

If Schaub starts, he'll probably win Sunday but then lose again and we'll be back again with the same problem.
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Well, that's up for grabs. If someone called Manziel Case Keenum with mobility, I might not argue all that much.

Again, like I said before... if Case is indeed the savior of this franchise I will eat my crow and buy a Keenum jersey to prove it.
 
htownfan32 said:
Okay, I can buy that. But he didn't do it against any defense of Alabama's caliber. Ok St. and Penn State are great teams, but to compare their defenses to Alabama's... Heck, even the one SEC team listed, Mississippi St., isn't exactly top tier SEC competition.
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Oh no, Aggie fan has already become "SEC guy". :kubepalm: :)
 
Carr Bombed said:
Oh no, Aggie fan has already become "SEC guy". :kubepalm: :)
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Heh heh. What can I say? It's almost like a disease, except you love it. :bender:

Look, Case or TJ, if I see either one under center instead of Schaub I'll be dancing with glee. That much I think the vast majority of us can agree on
 
htownfan32 said:
Well, that's up for grabs. If someone called Manziel Case Keenum with mobility, I might not argue all that much.

Again, like I said before... if Case is indeed the savior of this franchise I will eat my crow and buy a Keenum jersey to prove it.
Click to expand...

Even as a Keenum fan since way back, I still have some doubts. But I just want to see what he does in a real NFL game.
 
htownfan32 said:
One honest question.

Let's put Keenum in behind center on September 14, 2013 against Alabama in College Station.

Do you think he could have done what Manziel did?

Also, Manziel is not my first choice for this team. It's Hundley and my second choice is Tajh Boyd.
Click to expand...

In 2007 at Alabama Keenum came in halfway through the 3rd quarter down 7 to 23 and was just 15 yards shy of the win.
 
This article is about Manziel and how he compares with Keenum as a college prospect. Nothing about Keenum as a Texan. Moved to the correct forum.
 
htownfan32 said:
Heh heh. What can I say? It's almost like a disease, except you love it. :bender:

Look, Case or TJ, if I see either one under center instead of Schaub I'll be dancing with glee. That much I think the vast majority of us can agree on
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Yeah, I have to agree with this, but a part of me really wants to see what Case can do. Even though TJ looked good at times when he played in 2011 and got us to the playoffs, I just think of him as a more mobile stronger armed version of Schaub. Now, that's not saying he can't get it done, and I fully expect Kubes to go with TJ if there's going to be a change, but I just think Case has that "it" factor and I'm not sure TJ does.
 
Insideop said:
Yeah, I have to agree with this, but a part of me really wants to see what Case can do. Even though TJ looked good at times when he played in 2011 and got us to the playoffs, I just think of him as a more mobile stronger armed version of Schaub. Now, that's not saying he can't get it done, and I fully expect Kubes to go with TJ if there's going to be a change, but I just think Case has that "it" factor and I'm not sure TJ does.
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This is the problem i have with the Keenum brigade....they keep saying that Yates just looks like another schaub clone.

Well, Case & TJ have virtually the same skill sets. Yates' arm isn't that much stronger than Cases' and Case isn't that much faster than Yates. If you feel that Yates is just another "schaub clone" in this system, What on earth convinces you that Case is going to look so radically different from Yates in this system?
 
Mr teX said:
I caught hell in the johnny manziel thread saying pretty much everything this guy said...Manziel isnt anymore talented than Case...i'd argue case is more talented than Manziel.
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You'd argue, and you'd be pretty much alone. Most folks would take Case's passing game over JFF, but Case's scrambling ability (good as it is) isn't in the same universe.

Mr teX said:
This is the problem i have with the Keenum brigade....they keep saying that Yates just looks like another schaub clone.

Well, Case & TJ have virtually the same skill sets. Yates' arm isn't that much stronger than Cases' and Case isn't that much faster than Yates. If you feel that Yates is just another "schaub clone" in this system, What on earth convinces you that Case is going to look so radically different from Yates in this system?
Click to expand...
My eyes and tape. Yates has been taken into the Kubiak system full-bore so his every motion looks like a duplicate of Schaub. Case doesn't. Case's pocket-presence is better, and his mobility is better. Whether Yates has similar physical tools doesn't matter if his modus operandi is to "be like Schaub".
 
Insideop said:
Even though TJ looked good at times when he played in 2011 and got us to the playoffs, I just think of him as a more mobile stronger armed version of Schaub.
Click to expand...

Explain how that is a bad thing? Put Matt's stats on a more mobile Schaub with a stronger arm.... how in the world can that be a bad thing?

If either of these guys get to play, that's what I want to see. At least a more mobile version of Schaub. If he's got a stronger arm, great, but I don't think any of them have an NFL strong arm & if you think either of them do, you have no idea what I'm talking about.
 
Mr teX said:
No, RG3 played under briles....kevin kolb though put up numbers in briles' system.....and well....
Click to expand...

Sumlin coached under Briles and kept his offensive system. It's the same system. Kolb, Keenum, RG3, and Manziel have all played in the same system, with only very minor differences. As someone said above, conference bias screws up talent evaluation. Keenum could turn into the next Drew Brees or he could turn into the next Kevin Kolb. Whatever he turns into isn't going to be because of whatever system he ran in college. It's going to be because he was never given the same opportunity that a guy like RG3 or Kolb was given, at least in large part. And that's really the root of the Keenum debate. You have people arguing that he should get a chance to fail and you have people arguing that he should not. The people arguing he should not largely base their argument on stupid **** like the fact that he wasn't drafted, which is circular logic, or that he's only 6' tall. The only times anyone has seen Keenum play, he's been impressive. Yes, it was college and preseason, so what's the step after that?

What else could Keenum do to make some of y'all give him a chance? (not aimed at you specifically Mr Tex)
 
disaacks3 said:
You'd argue, and you'd be pretty much alone. Most folks would take Case's passing game over JFF, but Case's scrambling ability (good as it is) isn't in the same universe.

My eyes and tape. Yates has been taken into the Kubiak system full-bore so his every motion looks like a duplicate of Schaub. Case doesn't. Case's pocket-presence is better, and his mobility is better. Whether Yates has similar physical tools doesn't matter if his modus operandi is to "be like Schaub".
Click to expand...

i'm not touching the manziel part...i've said my piece on that...

as for the 2nd part....If you see that yates' MO is schaub-like....well......there's probably a reason for that.... the system as it is in place now is the only one either of them has ever known in the nfl. more importantly The coaching all 3 have been recieving is also the same. It stands to reason then using common sense, that their "MO's" are likely the same as well.

Everyone's exagerating Case's mobility...like it's Wilson, RG3 mobility...its not. He's slightly faster than Yates....not so much faster than Yates' that his game looks totally different. In any event, i don't see why everyone's acting like yates is a frickin statue back there like Schaub was. He had absolutely no issue scrambling for a 10 yard 1st down in the bengals regular season game as a rookie...& he can move around when he needs to.

Pocket prescence, keenum hasn't been tested against NFL starters to even get a feel for how good his pocket prescence is or isn't...
 
eriadoc said:
What else could Keenum do to make some of y'all give him a chance? (not aimed at you specifically Mr Tex)
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Wait.

Do his thing, study, make all the meetings, improve himself everyday.

Bottom line, for me anyway, is that Matt Schaub just came off two of his best seasons as an NFL QB. Not stat wise, but W-L wise. He's struggling, can't deny that. But he showed enough week 1, week 2, and really week 4 to say, it's still in there somewhere. & I can see how Kubiak would think it is worth trying to find.

I never thought Matt would have the issue he's having this year, but with that in mind, chances are even better that Keenum will get his shot. Matt's either going to play himself out of the job or he's going to get hurt. If you really want Keenum to have a real shot, then tweet him, tell him you support him, tell him to be ready. One way or another he's going to get his shot. It sucks that he won't get multiple shots like Kolb or RG3. He's only going to get one. If he fails, no one is going to say, "Well... he's on that Houston offense, they've got some coaching issues....... I'll give him another shot."

He's going to get 1 & if he does well, he'll get another, then another.
 
thunderkyss said:
Wait.

Do his thing, study, make all the meetings, improve himself everyday.

Bottom line, for me anyway, is that Matt Schaub just came off two of his best seasons as an NFL QB. Not stat wise, but W-L wise. He's struggling, can't deny that. But he showed enough week 1, week 2, and really week 4 to say, it's still in there somewhere. & I can see how Kubiak would think it is worth trying to find.

I never thought Matt would have the issue he's having this year, but with that in mind, chances are even better that Keenum will get his shot. Matt's either going to play himself out of the job or he's going to get hurt. If you really want Keenum to have a real shot, then tweet him, tell him you support him, tell him to be ready. One way or another he's going to get his shot. It sucks that he won't get multiple shots like Kolb or RG3. He's only going to get one. If he fails, no one is going to say, "Well... he's on that Houston offense, they've got some coaching issues....... I'll give him another shot."

He's going to get 1 & if he does well, he'll get another, then another.
Click to expand...

Lost me there bud...There isn't a sturdy leg Kubiak has to stand on to justify trotting Schaub back out there.

I keep hearing the experts say he gives us the best chance to win...well no he doesn't if he continues to toss pick 6's & ints. At this point, any qb who doesn't do that gives us a better chance than he does.

& there's at least 2 guys on the roster right now who probably can stay away from doing that....you can probably find a vet or 2 on the FA market who can probably do that as well.
 
Mr teX said:
I keep hearing the experts say he gives us the best chance to win...well no he doesn't if he continues to toss pick 6's & ints. At this point, any qb who doesn't do that gives us a better chance than he does.
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Completely agree. IF

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced this is another Jake Delhomme situation. I think Matt's overachieved, I think most of us here believe that. Gary is probably the only one who thinks he hasn't reached his potential yet. Maybe Rick believes it too..... I don't know.

But I thought this was a Super Bowl team with Matt Schaub before all of this. Physically he looks better to me than I've seen him in a long time. So if he can get past this "mental" dilemma we can get back on track.
 
Mr teX said:
i'm not touching the manziel part...i've said my piece on that...

as for the 2nd part....If you see that yates' MO is schaub-like....well......there's probably a reason for that.... the system as it is in place now is the only one either of them has ever known in the nfl. more importantly The coaching all 3 have been recieving is also the same. It stands to reason then using common sense, that their "MO's" are likely the same as well.

Everyone's exagerating Case's mobility...like it's Wilson, RG3 mobility...its not. He's slightly faster than Yates....not so much faster than Yates' that his game looks totally different. In any event, i don't see why everyone's acting like yates is a frickin statue back there like Schaub was. He had absolutely no issue scrambling for a 10 yard 1st down in the bengals regular season game as a rookie...& he can move around when he needs to.

Pocket prescence, keenum hasn't been tested against NFL starters to even get a feel for how good his pocket prescence is or isn't...
Click to expand...
Where to begin? How about the "system" that Yates ran in college included plays straight from the Texans playbook. He's been running more/less the same offense for years. Case hasn't. He's run Sumlin's far more wide-open (we need you to scramble) offense for more years than he's seen a Texans playbook.

Case is nowhere NEAR as mobile as RG3, Wilson, etc., but it's a BIG step up from Schaub / Yates. The point I was making isn't that Yates is immobile, rather that he's had this "system" drilled into his head so deeply that scrambling is an afterthought. Case is the reverse, he'll move early when the pocket starts breaking down (probably earlier than Kubiak would prefer).
 
eriadoc said:
Sumlin coached under Briles and kept his offensive system. It's the same system. Kolb, Keenum, RG3, and Manziel have all played in the same system, with only very minor differences. As someone said above, conference bias screws up talent evaluation. Keenum could turn into the next Drew Brees or he could turn into the next Kevin Kolb. Whatever he turns into isn't going to be because of whatever system he ran in college. It's going to be because he was never given the same opportunity that a guy like RG3 or Kolb was given, at least in large part. And that's really the root of the Keenum debate. You have people arguing that he should get a chance to fail and you have people arguing that he should not. The people arguing he should not largely base their argument on stupid **** like the fact that he wasn't drafted, which is circular logic, or that he's only 6' tall. The only times anyone has seen Keenum play, he's been impressive. Yes, it was college and preseason, so what's the step after that?

What else could Keenum do to make some of y'all give him a chance? (not aimed at you specifically Mr Tex)
Click to expand...


Sumlin never coached under Briles. Sumlin came from OU and they ran the system that Mike Leach installed when he was OC at OU before he took the Tech job. The system Art Briles uses is a lot different from the Mike Leach/ Dana Holgerson Air Raid that was run at OU/Tech/UH/A$M.
 
texanhead08 said:
Sumlin never coached under Briles. Sumlin came from OU and they ran the system that Mike Leach installed when he was OC at OU before he took the Tech job. The system Art Briles uses is a lot different from the Mike Leach/ Dana Holgerson Air Raid that was run at OU/Tech/UH/A$M.
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disaacks3 said:
Correct. http://college-football-coaches.findthedata.org/compare/17-94/Art-Briles-vs-Kevin-Sumlin
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There is a link though. Art Briles was an offensive coach (RBs) at Texas Tech under Mike Leach from 2000-2002. As mentioned Sumlin came from OU where Leach had been the OC before Sumlin's arrival and they still ran his offense.
 
playa465 said:
There is a link though. Art Briles was an offensive coach (RBs) at Texas Tech under Mike Leach from 2000-2002. As mentioned Sumlin came from OU where Leach had been the OC before Sumlin's arrival and they still ran his offense.
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Not quite - Sumlin learned from Mike Price @ WSU, and all were members of a group known as the "One-back Clinic"

This "One-back Clinic" has reached mythical status among coaching circles in the past 25 years. Among others, Hal Mumme, June Jones, Mike Leach, Dana Holgorson, Art Briles, Kevin Wilson, Rich Rodriguez, Mike Gundy, Noel Mazzone, Bob Stitt, Urban Meyer and Chip Kelly all attended these get-togethers at some point early in their careers. Ideas were traded, plays designed and schemes piggy-backed on established ideas.
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Link

Link
Link
Link
 
A lot of coaches are copy cats.

I remember an interview where Keenum said he runs the same system as RG III.

When Briles was with the Cougars, we saw a few more I formations.
But Briles moved away from that at Baylor.
They still run from the I occasionally (the Bears), as did the Coogs under Sumlin, but not as much as in Keenum's first year.

I have studied these QBs a lot.
They were running the same system basically; the only difference is the number of plays from each formation.
There were certain things that the Bears like to do more; and there are certain things the Coogs like to do more off; that's all.
 
Mr teX said:
This is the problem i have with the Keenum brigade....they keep saying that Yates just looks like another schaub clone.

Well, Case & TJ have virtually the same skill sets. Yates' arm isn't that much stronger than Cases' and Case isn't that much faster than Yates. If you feel that Yates is just another "schaub clone" in this system, What on earth convinces you that Case is going to look so radically different from Yates in this system?
Click to expand...

Keenum and Yates have completely different skill set as can be.

Keenum's game is his head; Yates relies on his athleticism.

Keenum is a touch pass guy when he has the time; he would rather throw a catchable ball than drill it when he doesn't have to.
He's a Bill Walsh's kind of QB.

Yates is more like a Madden's kind of QB.
Madden wants his QB to drill the ball every time, even if it's a five yard pass.
 
76Texan said:
Keenum and Yates have completely different skill set as can be.

Keenum's game is his head; Yates relies on his athleticism.

Keenum is a touch pass guy when he has the time; he would rather throw a catchable ball than drill it when he doesn't have to.
He's a Bill Walsh's kind of QB.

Yates is more like a Madden's kind of QB.
Madden wants his QB to drill the ball every time, even if it's a five yard pass.
Click to expand...

I love ya 76....but i disagree...

Furthermore, all these guys look good when they have time...even Schaub. The ability to make a play when you don't have much time & you're moving around to make a play is the biggest reason people want yates or keenum to get the start. Hell, as it was explained to me by at least 1 person in this very thread, poeple want Keenum to start basically b/c he's more likely to run & rely on his athleticism. I'm not buying that either. Once he gets lit up a few times, he'd likely tone it down.

For the record, I don't think it would make a huge difference either way...1 guy's strength is another's weakness & they're largely are about the same in most other areas. In the end though, both guys will probably perform about the same..........largely b/c they've been under the same coach & indoctrinated in the same system.
 
Mr teX said:
I love ya 76....but i disagree...

Furthermore, all these guys look good when they have time...even Schaub. The ability to make a play when you don't have much time & you're moving around to make a play is the biggest reason people want yates or keenum to get the start. Hell, as it was explained to me by at least 1 person in this very thread, poeple want Keenum to start basically b/c he's more likely to run & rely on his athleticism. I'm not buying that either. Once he gets lit up a few times, he'd likely tone it down.

For the record, I don't think it would make a huge difference either way...1 guy's strength is another's weakness & they're largely are about the same in most other areas. In the end though, both guys will probably perform about the same..........largely b/c they've been under the same coach & indoctrinated in the same system.
Click to expand...

There's a difference in the system they played earlier on in their career that makes them seem to be "similar" at the final tally.

Yates played in a WCO at UNC that copied pretty much everything the Texans did (at one time - but Kubiak had expanded from that.)
In this system, Yates' athleticism can be seen on the bootleg or sprint roll-out.

Keenum was a dual-threat QB in highschool, so Art Briles utilize that skills set when Keenum arrived at UH.
Under Sumlin; however, Keenum - even he still played in a zone read spread that RG III ran at Baylor - became more of a pocket passer like Brees.
Keenum is more like Brees than Brady or RG III.
He's aware of what the defense wants to throw at him, and he learns to have an internal clock where he knows when to start avoiding the pass rusher (more naturally than Yates).

In the thread on the main forum, I posted a video about Keenum as a playmaker.
If you watch that video, you might notice that the defense mostly rush three.
With 8 guys dropping back into coverage, there aren't any receiver open early.
Still, the three-man pass rush overwhelmed the Coogs O-line.
Watch it to see that Keenum scrambled but always keep an eye downfield to find a receiver. He didn't panic and started to run.

Both of them make throw on the move, but the cirscumstances are totally different.

When a play breaks down, I prefers Keenum due to his football IQ.
He seems to be able to recognize where pressure is coming from, and how to counter that.
It's totally different from a QB with happy feet like Gabbert, or Carr.
Keenum still remembers where his receivers are supposed to be.
He scramble to an area where he has a chance to make a throw instead of just running wildly.

That natural instinct is something neither Schaub nor Yates posess.

It's part of the "It" factor.
 
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