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If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

Texecutioner

Texecutioner

Hall of Fame
My buddies and I had this discussion the other day and we all came to the same conclusion that neither of them would and they would be on the sidelines behind Matt Schaub.

Now if you agree with this, I'd say that this is a huge problem with our HC. Now this is not a "Fire Kubiak" thread or anything, because we all know that idea isn't even up for debate. However, Kubiak's stubbornness has always been a huge problem. I think Kubiak is fully willing to ride Schaub until he is either hurt or until it is to late. I don't think that Kubiak will have any intention what so ever to even consider another QB for maybe another two years. We are in a win now mode, and I felt like our offense looked so much better and had way more versatility when Keenum was running it in the pre season. I'm not trying to suggest that Keenum should start right now, but for the first time I started really liking this Texans Kubiak offense when I saw a mobile guy with a stronger arm running it.

Do you feel that Kaepernick or Wilson would start here "right now?" And if you don't how in the world could you justify that not as a huge problem with the HC's judgement?

Again, this is not some Fire Kubiak thread and I don't want it to go that route. We had this discussion the other day and I thought it was very interesting to discuss.
 
The debate must first start with Schaub being greater than either Matt Flynn or Alex Smith.

Second, who the heck knows? I know you want to pick on the idea of Kubiaks stubbornness. But what stubbornness of his do you speak of when it comes to the QB position?
 
I think it depends on how well they are learning the offense. I don't think Kubiak is stubborn in giving a guy a chance, but he is stubborn in the sense that players should run the offense the way he designed it to be. In other words, if Kaep or Wilson play, and they are opting to run and freelance too much, instead of running the play as it was designed... then yes, I say Kubiak benches them in favor of Matt.

I don't think Kubiak is afraid to give player's chances. If he was stubborn, we'd probably still be seeing Steve Slaton with Arian on the bench. We'd still have KW as the #2, with Hopkins on some other team.
 
Tailgate said:
The debate must first start with Schaub being greater than either Matt Flynn or Alex Smith.

Second, who the heck knows?? I know you want to pick on the idea of Kubiaks stubbornness. But what stubbornness of his do you speak of when it comes to the QB position?
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Well, I just think that Kubiak likes Schaub because Schaub is a "yes man." He will do whatever Kubiak says and wants and is very under "his control." Schaub doesn't try to deviate from his game plan or improvise which is what a lot of QB's have to do now days more then anything. I don't think that Kubiak trusts Schaub to do a whole lot either which bothers me, because if he is going to be your guy then why not allow him to do a little bit more on his own since he has been in this system for a long time and Schaub is a pretty seasoned vet. I think Kubiak has his plays that he likes and he doesn't really like to adapt away from it depending on who we're playing or what the system of the other team's defense is. I think that Gary has his system and he runs that system the way he plans going into a game and he won't deviate from that plan no matter what circumstances are in a game. And Schaub listens, and Gary likes that.

Now, Kaepernick and Wilson are two great talents. But would they have ever gotten a real chance if they were on this team? THere has never really been an open competition at QB for Schaub. Not that there has been hardly anyone to really compete for it until this off season, but I don't think that Gary has any care in the world to even look.
 
I don't think either one of them would have pushed Schaub out of the Starter's job when they were rookies and possibly, not even second year players.

But if we had drafted Kaepernick, I think he would have been the starter this year. Those sorts of QBs with that sort of athletic potential in this sort of offense would be... simply... unstoppable.

The only problem they would have in unseating Schaub is their ability to read the defense and their ability to know the playbook. Schaub's experience and his knowledge would give him an advantage but eventually... and I'm thinking "eventually would be their 3rd year... they would know enough of the offense so that their athletic abilities would tip the scales in their favor.

If they didn't pick up the offense, though, they would never start regardless of athletic potential.
 
Considering the only way that either one of them could be a Texan would be by getting selected higher in the draft than the Texans have ever taken a QB, with the exception of HWSNBN, I would say yes. Rick and Gary wouldn't use that high a pick without the absolute expectation of them becoming a starter relatively quickly.
 
dream_team said:
I don't think Kubiak is afraid to give player's chances. If he was stubborn, we'd probably still be seeing Steve Slaton with Arian on the bench. We'd still have KW as the #2, with Hopkins on some other team.
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I think you'd have to admit that these two are horrible examples.

Slaton was playing awful before getting benched and he got benched like 3 times before getting hurt and got extra chances. Slaton kept fumbling and couldn't run anywhere for a positive yardage. It was a no brainer to bench Slaton and Foster wasn't put in right away. That other small back was put in, and he didn't do fantastic either. That was when Foster "finally"got this shot at the end of the season when everything was over. That was a huge failure of Kubiak actually for not giving Foster a chance earlier.

And Hopkins??? Dude, are you forgetting that Walter was here like two years to long? Kubiak held onto that guy and Jacoby way to long and it hurt the team. The Texans refused to ever go after a quality free agent receiver. They were forced to use an early draft pick this season on Hopkins and hopefully it ends up working out. It looks like it is, but we still have a long way to go.


Both of the examples you cited actually make my point even further. These were both examples where Kubiak's lack of trust in Foster had him on the bench when we really needed him over these other guys and Walter was a guy that we held onto for way to long and didn't properly try to address the receiver position.
 
ChampionTexan said:
Considering the only way that either one of them could be a Texan would be by getting selected higher in the draft than the Texans have ever taken a QB, with the exception of HWSNBN, I would say yes. Rick and Gary wouldn't use that high a pick without the absolute expectation of them becoming a starter relatively quickly.
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That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.
 
dream_team said:
I think it depends on how well they are learning the offense. I don't think Kubiak is stubborn in giving a guy a chance, but he is stubborn in the sense that players should run the offense the way he designed it to be. In other words, if Kaep or Wilson play, and they are opting to run and freelance too much, instead of running the play as it was designed... then yes, I say Kubiak benches them in favor of Matt.

I don't think Kubiak is afraid to give player's chances. If he was stubborn, we'd probably still be seeing Steve Slaton with Arian on the bench. We'd still have KW as the #2, with Hopkins on some other team.
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I remember all of the back up QBs that the fans wanted to play ahead of the starter. When it came time for them to shine, in regular season, they fell apart. The only thing wrong with Schaub is that he throws behind the reciever a lot of times.
 
busterspencer said:
I remember all of the back up QBs that the fans wanted to play ahead of the starter. When it came time for them to shine, in regular season, they fell apart. The only thing wrong with Schaub is that he throws behind the reciever a lot of times.
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Exactly... Cody Carlson, Bucky Richardson, and Sage come to mind.
 
Let's line up Schaub, Yates and Keenum and have 'em all pee on an electric fence. The one smart enough to hold his dick with his left hand will be our new starter.
 
Texecutioner said:
That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.
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In my mind, it has everything to do with the question. The Forty-Niners drafted Kaepernick because Harbaugh and Trent Baalke felt they needed a QB. The Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson because John Schneider - and probably Pete Carrol - felt they needed a QB. They didn't just land on a roster where everyone was happy with the QB they had, and while I will say, giving a third round rookie a starting QB job took some nerve, he was competing with a guy who entered the competition with a grand total of two NFL starts to his name (and FWIW, still has two NFL starts to his name, and just got passed over again in a similar set of circumstances). Maybe we should be talking about what a visionary, gutsy organization the Raiders are.

By definition, two guys as highly regarded as Kaepernick and Wilson were coming out of college are only going to end up on a roster if whoever is making the decision on that roster genuinely believe they need a QB.

I guess it's just as valid to ask if the Niners and Seahawks would have drafted Kaepernick and Wilson if they already had a QB they felt was adequate?
 
Texecutioner said:
I think you'd have to admit that these two are horrible examples.

Slaton was playing awful before getting benched and he got benched like 3 times before getting hurt and got extra chances. Slaton kept fumbling and couldn't run anywhere for a positive yardage. It was a no brainer to bench Slaton and Foster wasn't put in right away. That other small back was put in, and he didn't do fantastic either. That was when Foster "finally"got this shot at the end of the season when everything was over. That was a huge failure of Kubiak actually for not giving Foster a chance earlier.

And Hopkins??? Dude, are you forgetting that Walter was here like two years to long? Kubiak held onto that guy and Jacoby way to long and it hurt the team. The Texans refused to ever go after a quality free agent receiver. They were forced to use an early draft pick this season on Hopkins and hopefully it ends up working out. It looks like it is, but we still have a long way to go.


Both of the examples you cited actually make my point even further. These were both examples where Kubiak's lack of trust in Foster had him on the bench when we really needed him over these other guys and Walter was a guy that we held onto for way to long and didn't properly try to address the receiver position.
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You want to be able to give your backups a chance to start, but at the same time, you want to give your struggling starters a chance to redeem themselves.

I remember a time when fans had enough of Kareem Jackson, Chris Myers, and Duane Brown... and wanted to see them gone. It's not always a good idea to give up on guys too early.
 
I'll come back with a simple answer................When Schaub got his new contract, "open competition" left the building with Elvis.:mcnugget:
 
Texecutioner said:
That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.
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Anybody ever ask you about their Aunt?
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I'll come back with a simple answer................When Schaub got his new contract, "open competition" left the building with Elvis.:mcnugget:
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If you have a couple of guys who could be the guy, then you don't have The Guy.

That's why Harbaugh waited until he had an excuse to insert Kaepernick into the line-up. He didn't want to just yank Smith... who until that point was The Guy.
 
dream_team said:
You want to be able to give your backups a chance to start, but at the same time, you want to give your struggling starters a chance to redeem themselves.

I remember a time when fans had enough of Kareem Jackson, Chris Myers, and Duane Brown... and wanted to see them gone. It's not always a good idea to give up on guys too early.
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:bravo:

CloakNNNdagger said:
I'll come back with a simple answer................When Schaub got his new contract, "open competition" left the building with Elvis.:mcnugget:
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:bravo:
:ahhaha:
 
ChampionTexan said:
In my mind, it has everything to do with the question. The Forty-Niners drafted Kaepernick because Harbaugh and Trent Baalke felt they needed a QB. The Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson because John Schneider - and probably Pete Carrol - felt they needed a QB. They didn't just land on a roster where everyone was happy with the QB they had, and while I will say, giving a third round rookie a starting QB job took some nerve, he was competing with a guy who entered the competition with a grand total of two NFL starts to his name (and FWIW, still has two NFL starts to his name, and just got passed over again in a similar set of circumstances). Maybe we should be talking about what a visionary, gutsy organization the Raiders are.

By definition, two guys as highly regarded as Kaepernick and Wilson were coming out of college are only going to end up on a roster if whoever is making the decision on that roster genuinely believe they need a QB.

I guess it's just as valid to ask if the Niners and Seahawks would have drafted Kaepernick and Wilson if they already had a QB they felt was adequate?
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Great points.
 
I don't think Kubiak would know what to do with the likes of Kaepernick or Wilson. I think that Dennys menu can only hold plays designed for drop back passers. Athletic QBs add too much of an X factor and they sometimes have to jettison out of a play and make something happen on their own.
 
Texecutioner said:
That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.
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It absolutely matters how they got to the team, either via draft, free agency or a trade. You can't just magically place those guys on the Texans then craft an argument about how pitiful Kubiak is without giving some sort of context. I believe if they were on the team and had demonstrated they could run Kubiak's offense better than Schaub then they would be starting, and not before then.
 
b0ng said:
It absolutely matters how they got to the team, either via draft, free agency or a trade. You can't just magically place those guys on the Texans then craft an argument about how pitiful Kubiak is without giving some sort of context.
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Well I think you can. It's not like they were high draft picks or anything. I'm just curious if Kubiak would notice the strength of a guy like either in this offense and if he'd do something or not with Schaub still here. That is where my concern is. Would Kubiak make that move if one of these guys were on the roster currently?




b0ng said:
I believe if they were on the team and had demonstrated they could run Kubiak's offense better than Schaub then they would be starting, and not before then.
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I would hope so, but I don't believe that Gary would give either guy the proper look to see if they would be able to excel in this offense. I think he is to tunnel visioned on Schaub.
 
dream_team said:
You want to be able to give your backups a chance to start, but at the same time, you want to give your struggling starters a chance to redeem themselves.

I remember a time when fans had enough of Kareem Jackson, Chris Myers, and Duane Brown... and wanted to see them gone. It's not always a good idea to give up on guys too early.
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Yes, but Schaub has been the starter here for like 7 years now. I'm not saying that we should replace him right this minute in the season, but I've been seeing one to many things I don't like about Schaub this season. And I've also seen Schaub make two great comeback drives which is an improvement in that area so far, but how long can that last for a flat footed guy like Schaub? I just don't see Schaub pulling those kinds of drives off multiple times in the playoffs. I'd love to see him do it, but I don't want to see the Texans continue to waste good years on some strong teams, because they had a QB that held them back. With the right QB, this is a SB team. I know that Schaub will be the starter all season barring any injuries, but if he doesn't have a monster post season or take this team really far then I think it's time we make it a priority to replace Schaub.
 
No, neither one would be the starting QB for the Texans.

The only reason Elway did what he did was because of Shannahan. Kubiak wants a QB that protects the ball more than anything else. Schaubs INT's this year would be a bigger cause to Yates starting than anything else.
 
Lots of logic leaps in this question.

Who have the Texans had on the roster that clearly outplayed Schaub, leading to the premise that Gary is protecting him?

What free-agent QB's were available that were better than Schaub that they didn't sign?

What draft pick would they not have taken in the last two years in order to draft a QB who would replace Schaub?

Kaepernick was a 2nd rounder (36th pick) and Wilson was a 3rd Rounder (75th pick). Why would the Texans take a QB in the first two to three rounds for the explicit purpose of replacing a QB that goes for 4K yards, 20+ TD's and a 95% rating every year?

Seattle was without a QB. They desparately got Matt Flynn from Green Bay because of his one stupidly ridiculous stat line the previous season. The same Matt Flynn that could not win the starting role in Oakland. Wilson had an opportunity to step into a vacuum at the QB position and made the best of it. There was no entrenched, established QB on that team that he beat out.

Alex Smith was the starter in SF for six years, which more resembles what the Texans have in Schaub. However, his stats (and wins) were horrible. Sub 3K passing yards, sub 15 TD's, lots of fumbles, low 80% ratings. SF gave him plenty of years to develop and he didn't. They had already decided to move on from Smith, but had no one on the roster to take his place. Thus, the drafting of Kaepernick. Unfortunately, last year Smith had arguably his best year as a pro by far. Lots of yards, 70% completion rate, 3:1 TD/INT ratio, 104% rating, racking up the wins. But the decision had already been made to move on.

The Texans have not been in the scenario that either SF or Seattle was in at the time they made the decision to use a high draft pick on a QB. It is a faulty premise to assume that the Texans made a mistake by not taking either one, or that they explicitly chose not to because Kubiak is willing to ruin his career in an effort to keep Schaub as his QB at all costs.
 
Texecutioner said:
Do you feel that Kaepernick or Wilson would start here "right now?" And if you don't how in the world could you justify that not as a huge problem with the HC's judgement?
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I believe if we brought in either Kaepernick or Wilson to replace David Carr, neither would be here starting for the Houston Texans in 2013.

I justify Kubiak's stubbornness because he & Matt have been through thick & thin. They've taken us from 6-10 to 9-7 despite several serious issues. Back to 6-10 then to 12-4.

If the 49ers lose Patrick Willis after week 5, I don't think they're 12-4.... sorry, I don't. If Marshawn Lynch averages 4.1 ypc I don't think the Seahawks are 11-5.

If we had drafted either of those guys in the 2nd round our the 3rd round, they would be sitting on the bench until Matt Schaub gets hurt. If they "light it up" they'll probably keep the job. If not... they wouldn't. But since Schaub (& I'm not a fan) has proven to be more than capable, we didn't draft either of them..... had Kaepernick dropped to the 5th, we might have taken him. Had Wilson went undrafted... we might have taken him. But they didn't, & we didn't.
 
DocBar said:
No, neither one would be the starting QB for the Texans.

The only reason Elway did what he did was because of Shannahan. Kubiak wants a QB that protects the ball more than anything else. Schaubs INT's this year would be a bigger cause to Yates starting than anything else.
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Schaub's td/int ratio is 2/1 so even if he continues at that rate Yates is not seeing the game unless Matt gets hurt. You are detached from reality
 
eriadoc said:
I don't care to involve myself in the debate, but the Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a 3 year, $26M contract with $10M guaranteed, then started Wilson from the first regular season game.
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Good example. But, the Texans aren't the Seahawks, and history would go against such a move here. We've always had a history of "hanging on" until fiscal loss is no longer embarrassing and/or poor performance is too embarrassing.
 
eriadoc said:
I don't care to involve myself in the debate, but the Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a 3 year, $26M contract with $10M guaranteed, then started Wilson from the first regular season game.
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Doesn't address the question. Flynn had never played a down for the Seahawks. Where are the examples of established vets with QB ratings in the 90s being subjected to a public open competition?
 
IlliniJen said:
I don't think Kubiak would know what to do with the likes of Kaepernick or Wilson. I think that Dennys menu can only hold plays designed for drop back passers. Athletic QBs add too much of an X factor and they sometimes have to jettison out of a play and make something happen on their own.
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Because, you know, his years in Denver never had him coaching a mobile QB. :kitten:
 
I can't address Texecutioner's point directly because I think he's made up his mind. That said, I recall many wanting Josh Freeman a couple years ago, or Cam Newton after he had a smattering of good games. It's more likely that Wilson and Kaepernick end up the same way. I can't count the number of times I've heard in my lifetime, "This player is going to change the way QB is played forever". Hell, even Joe Flacco looked like Montana reincarnate for a few games in the playoffs last season. Give me Brees, Manning, or Brady any day over the flavour du jour at QB.
 
Texecutioner said:
Well I think you can. It's not like they were high draft picks or anything. I'm just curious if Kubiak would notice the strength of a guy like either in this offense and if he'd do something or not with Schaub still here. That is where my concern is. Would Kubiak make that move if one of these guys were on the roster currently?






I would hope so, but I don't believe that Gary would give either guy the proper look to see if they would be able to excel in this offense. I think he is to tunnel visioned on Schaub.
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This whole thread has been "this is what I believe about Gary Kubiak, so there". It's very hard to have a discussion on a hypothetical situation, especially when both sides disagree, since factual evidence doesn't really seem to make a difference; there's always a loophole where that particular case doesn't apply.

That being said, assuming the following: if either of those two guys was on this squad RIGHT now and has shown the level of competence they have shown to date, I believe they would be starting. Maybe they wouldn't, if Kubiak thought Schaub's competence is greater than theirs, I cannot speak to Kubiak's evaluations of the QBs.

You can disagree with me that he wouldn't, I truly believe it comes down to Kubiak's evaluation of their competence, NOT loyalty or stubbornness, as you've argued.
 
Kaepernick yes, Wilson no...

The reason i say this is b/c Kaepernick and not Wilson is b/c Kaep is more of the prototype than Wilson. Kaepernick for the most part is the prototype. Tall, strong arm, accurate & athletic enough to evade pass rushers. That would've been just too much for even stubborn ass Kubiak to ignore. The minute Schaub went down in 2011 & Kaepernick flashed in the playoffs, Schaub would've been outta here for like a 3rd-4th round pick.

Wilson could've flashed, but ultimately still would've been reglegated back to the bench b/c of the concerns for his height. He would've had to really ball out to to the tune of 300+ yds passing 3 TDs and 50-60 yds rushing to show Kubiak he's up to the task imo....& even then all it would've done was force a qb competition in which Schaub would've won for that year....people forget that Wilson struggled for the 1st 3 games last year before he got into a groove.
 
I guess one way of looking at this is that Schaub has 3 int's in 2 games & that will either improve drastically over time or even Kubiak will be looking to replace him. It's a lot like Bullock's situation, except that Schaub has had at least 3 successful seasons in the past & is no learning rookie.

Personally, I don't like Schaub's overall performance last year, especially late in the season, as he continued to get worse as the games counted more. That doesn't make me feel very indebted to him as a fan, but he has not lost us a game yet this season, & in fact has led game-winning drives despite crappy over-all performances (thank God for Lechler & a sometimes stingy D). We'll see if Schaub's first-half performances improve OR his game-winning drives disappear. The first 2 games weren't good enough overall. Last year wasn't good enough overall. Schaub needs to find his pre-2011 injury self, or else.
 
HJam72 said:
I guess one way of looking at this is that Schaub has 3 int's in 2 games & that will either improve drastically over time or even Kubiak will be looking to replace him. It's a lot like Bullock's situation, except that Schaub has had at least 3 successful seasons in the past & is no learning rookie.

Personally, I don't like Schaub's overall performance last year, especially late in the season, as he continued to get worse as the games counted more. That doesn't make me feel very indebted to him as a fan, but he has not lost us a game yet this season, & in fact has led game-winning drives despite crappy over-all performances (thank God for Lechler & a sometimes stingy D). We'll see if Schaub's first-half performances improve OR his game-winning drives disappear. The first 2 games weren't good enough overall. Last year wasn't good enough overall. Schaub needs to find his pre-2011 injury self, or else.
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This is such baloney....let's just call a spade a spade, Schaub will never get your support or most of the fans here in this town's full support b/c he doesn't have a rocket arm, he's relatively even kiel and not overly fiery & b/c he's not the flavor of the month "running qb".

The only way people will support this dude is if we win a SB.....emphasis on "win" b/c i feel very strongly that even if he were to lead us to a SB but didn't have a great game people here would find some way to blame him & only him for the loss while simultaneously marginalizing what he did to lead the team there in the 1st place.

& that quite honestly isn't fair to him b/c none of these other qb's whether they're good or bad are held to this standard. This is also why i often find myself defending this dude when i don't really want to.
 
infantrycak said:
Doesn't address the question. Flynn had never played a down for the Seahawks. Where are the examples of established vets with QB ratings in the 90s being subjected to a public open competition?
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Hey, I was just answering the question that CT posed to Doc, which had nothing to do with experience, skill level, or the price of rice in China.

CloakNNNdagger said:
I'll come back with a simple answer................When Schaub got his new contract, "open competition" left the building with Elvis.:mcnugget:
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ChampionTexan said:
Give me an example of an NFL team where that isn't true.
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eriadoc said:
I don't care to involve myself in the debate, but the Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a 3 year, $26M contract with $10M guaranteed, then started Wilson from the first regular season game.
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eriadoc said:
Hey, I was just answering the question that CT posed to Doc, which had nothing to do with experience, skill level, or the price of rice in China.
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I suppose it's all in how you view it (and no, I admittedly didn't stipulate the contracts being comparable from an economic standpoint - assuming it was understood), but personally, I don't equate a contract with almost $30 Million in guaranteed money and over $20 Million in dead money after year one to a contract with $10 Million in guaranteed money and $4 Million in dead money after year one.

Obviously everyone makes their own determination of what's an apple, and what's an orange, but that's mine.
 
Mr teX said:
This is such baloney....let's just call a spade a spade, Schaub will never get your support or most of the fans here in this town's full support b/c he doesn't have a rocket arm, he's relatively even kiel and not overly fiery & b/c he's not the flavor of the month "running qb".

The only way people will support this dude is if we win a SB.....emphasis on "win" b/c i feel very strongly that even if he were to lead us to a SB but didn't have a great game people here would find some way to blame him & only him for the loss while simultaneously marginalizing what he did to lead the team there in the 1st place.

& that quite honestly isn't fair to him b/c none of these other qb's whether they're good or bad are held to this standard. This is also why i often find myself defending this dude when i don't really want to.
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Schaub had my support most of the time until late last season. He might have it again in the future, but I don't know yet. People expect more than 1 playoff win from a QB that is on a team this stacked. TJ Yates can do that. He is rated in the bottom 3rd of QBs right now, & that's not just one website or one type of rating. It's great that he has led game-winning drives lately, & that was something he really need to do, but even with that, his overall performances have almost sucked. There's a LOT of season left, so we'll see which direction he goes in.
 
buddyboy said:
Because, you know, his years in Denver never had him coaching a mobile QB. :kitten:
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Interesting you should say. I don't think it matters how mobile the QB is for Kubiak. If he's exceptionally sharp, like Matt, he can do with a lot less mobility. If he's exceptionally athletic, he can do with a lot less mental acumen.

Look at Jake Plummer's career in Denver. Matt Schaub's ceiling may very well be AFC Championship game. Just because we bring a "more" mobile QB doesn't mean he'll have a higher ceiling. He's got to have the perfect mixture of both.


Mr teX said:
The only way people will support this dude is if we win a SB.....
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He could win a Super Bowl & I wouldn't support him any more than I do now, wouldn't support him any less either.

However, if goes off in the play-offs & we win the Super Bowl because he had a game like week 1 in San Diego (or Denver last year)... I'd be a Matt Schaub fan for life.
 
HJam72 said:
I guess one way of looking at this is that Schaub has 3 int's in 2 games & that will either improve drastically over time or even Kubiak will be looking to replace him. It's a lot like Bullock's situation, except that Schaub has had at least 3 successful seasons in the past & is no learning rookie.

Personally, I don't like Schaub's overall performance last year, especially late in the season, as he continued to get worse as the games counted more. That doesn't make me feel very indebted to him as a fan, but he has not lost us a game yet this season, & in fact has led game-winning drives despite crappy over-all performances (thank God for Lechler & a sometimes stingy D). We'll see if Schaub's first-half performances improve OR his game-winning drives disappear. The first 2 games weren't good enough overall. Last year wasn't good enough overall. Schaub needs to find his pre-2011 injury self, or else.
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look at schaub's time here and you will see the two to one ratio is his norm. If he has thrown 6 td and 3 ints and continues this pace they would not get rid of him
 
HJam72 said:
Schaub had my support most of the time until late last season. He might have it again in the future, but I don't know yet. People expect more than 1 playoff win from a QB that is on a team this stacked. TJ Yates can do that. He is rated in the bottom 3rd of QBs right now, & that's not just one website or one type of rating. It's great that he has led game-winning drives lately, & that was something he really need to do, but even with that, his overall performances have almost sucked. There's a LOT of season left, so we'll see which direction he goes in.
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Just because yates and schaub have playoff records of 1-1 doesnt make them equal. Schaub is far better than Yates and to say "Well Yates can do that" is beyond silly
 
HJam72 said:
Schaub had my support most of the time until late last season. He might have it again in the future, but I don't know yet. People expect more than 1 playoff win from a QB that is on a team this stacked. TJ Yates can do that. He is rated in the bottom 3rd of QBs right now, & that's not just one website or one type of rating. It's great that he has led game-winning drives lately, & that was something he really need to do, but even with that, his overall performances have almost sucked. There's a LOT of season left, so we'll see which direction he goes in.
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1 playoff win is about the average for most qb's who make it to the playoffs fairly regularly....Hell, that was the case with Manning for a long time before he finally broke through. The same with Flacco. Ryan & to lesser extent Rodgers are the new guy who seem to be 1 & done most years.

Yet, the only guys who even get remotely close to the flack Schaub takes for not winning more in the playoffs is Joe Flacco up until last year & Tony Romo. People gotta stop thinking that 1 playoff win is a bad thing. Manning led his team to the best record in the NFL & he won 0 playoff games last year & has had more of that in his career than any active qb...noone thinks he sucks though.

1st it was "He can't stay healthy.." then it was "he's just not clutch.."...then it was "he can't get us to the playoffs" now it's "he can't lead us to the superbowl". The reality of it is, most fans here just don't like the guy b/c he's not the prototype. His arm strength or something else will always be an issue for them.

Im of the opinion that as long as my team wins & he clearly doesn't show to be the top reason why we can't get to the next level, he's fine.
 
Mr teX said:
1 playoff win is about the average for most qb's who make it to the playoffs fairly regularly....Hell, that was the case with Manning for a long time before he finally broke through. The same with Flacco. Ryan & to lesser extent Rodgers are the new guy who seem to be 1 & done most years.

Yet, the only guys who even get remotely close to the flack Schaub takes for not winning more in the playoffs is Joe Flacco up until last year & Tony Romo. People gotta stop thinking that 1 playoff win is a bad thing. Manning led his team to the best record in the NFL & he won 0 playoff games last year & has had more of that in his career than any active qb...noone thinks he sucks though.

1st it was "He can't stay healthy.." then it was "he's just not clutch.."...then it was "he can't get us to the playoffs" now it's "he can't lead us to the superbowl". The reality of it is, most fans here just don't like the guy b/c he's not the prototype. His arm strength or something else will always be an issue for them.

Im of the opinion that as long as my team wins & he clearly doesn't show to be the top reason why we can't get to the next level, he's fine.
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Do you not see a difference between Schaub, Manning, & Rodgers?

Schaub, Romo, Flacco.... are the same guy to me. They do it a little different, but in the end..... they're the same guy.

Ryan. I think Matt Ryan is closer to the Manning & Rodgers group than the Schaub/Flacco group. Schaub, Flacco, & Romo are good enough that you aren't looking for a new QB, but you're looking at once in a blue moon odds of winning the Super Bowl with them & Flacco just reset that clock.
 
2012Champs said:
Just because yates and schaub have playoff records of 1-1 doesnt make them equal. Schaub is far better than Yates and to say "Well Yates can do that" is beyond silly
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Yes, Schaub is better than Yates. Yates is a backup QB. He's not a starter and shouldn't be. We used to argue about whether Schaub could take a stacked team to the Superbowl, but that was when he was a top 10 QB (just not top 5). He has not been a top 10 QB since his 2011 injury. Ever since he came back from that injury (start of 2012 season), he has been 22nd or worse. There have been at least 20 better staring QBs in the NFL for a full season plus 2 games. I am not questioning whether we can continue having winning seasons with Schaub. Assuming we want to win a Superbowl, instead of just being a repeat playoff loser for years to come, what I am questioning is whether we can win the whole thing with a QB that hasn't been in the top half of the league's starters for nearly 2 years in real time.
 
ChampionTexan said:
Considering the only way that either one of them could be a Texan would be by getting selected higher in the draft than the Texans have ever taken a QB, with the exception of HWSNBN, I would say yes. Rick and Gary wouldn't use that high a pick without the absolute expectation of them becoming a starter relatively quickly.
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Texecutioner said:
That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.
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ChampionTexan said:
In my mind, it has everything to do with the question. The Forty-Niners drafted Kaepernick because Harbaugh and Trent Baalke felt they needed a QB. The Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson because John Schneider - and probably Pete Carrol - felt they needed a QB. They didn't just land on a roster where everyone was happy with the QB they had, and while I will say, giving a third round rookie a starting QB job took some nerve, he was competing with a guy who entered the competition with a grand total of two NFL starts to his name (and FWIW, still has two NFL starts to his name, and just got passed over again in a similar set of circumstances). Maybe we should be talking about what a visionary, gutsy organization the Raiders are.

By definition, two guys as highly regarded as Kaepernick and Wilson were coming out of college are only going to end up on a roster if whoever is making the decision on that roster genuinely believe they need a QB.

I guess it's just as valid to ask if the Niners and Seahawks would have drafted Kaepernick and Wilson if they already had a QB they felt was adequate?
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When you think about it, the switch Harbaugh and Carroll made is not unlike what Kubiak did when he went out and got the best QB available to him in 2007. He had little faith (okay, none) in Carr being able to run the offense he wanted to run here so he sought out an upgrade.

Harbaugh saw little upside in Smith and Carroll had no ties to Flynn. Both went out and got a guy they thought better suited to the offense they wanted to run. When the time was right, they cut bait with the incumbents and inserted their hand picked starters.

So yeah, why/how the guys ended up on each respective roster has EVERYTHING to do with a head coach's decision to change starting QBs.
 
IlliniJen said:
I don't think Kubiak would know what to do with the likes of Kaepernick or Wilson. I think that Dennys menu can only hold plays designed for drop back passers. Athletic QBs add too much of an X factor and they sometimes have to jettison out of a play and make something happen on their own.
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As already mentioned, Kubiak coached Elway to two Super Bowls.

And let's not forget his coaching experience with Steve Young during his MVP and Super Bowl championship.

I do not think mobility is high on Kubiak's "must have list", but I do not doubt for an instance that he would work such a skill into the plays if the QB possessed it.

DocBar said:
No, neither one would be the starting QB for the Texans.

The only reason Elway did what he did was because of Shannahan. Kubiak wants a QB that protects the ball more than anything else. Schaubs INT's this year would be a bigger cause to Yates starting than anything else.
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Shanahan has openly stated that Kubiak was calling the offensive plays as OC for Elway during both Super Bowl championship seasons.

Surreal McCoy said:
I can't address Texecutioner's point directly because I think he's made up his mind. That said, I recall many wanting Josh Freeman a couple years ago, or Cam Newton after he had a smattering of good games. It's more likely that Wilson and Kaepernick end up the same way. I can't count the number of times I've heard in my lifetime, "This player is going to change the way QB is played forever". Hell, even Joe Flacco looked like Montana reincarnate for a few games in the playoffs last season. Give me Brees, Manning, or Brady any day over the flavour du jour at QB.
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This is the second, maybe third, time that the media has gone overboard with "prototype" QBs.

The demise of the pocket passer was all the rage in the late '90's/early 2000s.

Vick, McNabb, Culpepper - these were going to be the first QBs of a new way.

The media blatantly predicted that pocket passers would no longer exist by 2013.

Now look back at the last decade and the QBs winning championships are pocket passers.

Now the mobile read option is all the rage and predictions are up again that pocket QBs are going to be a thing of the past.

BS. The NFL will figure out the read option (already happening) and it will be a fad as a primary offense and go the way of the wildcat, pulled out to trick folks but not a consistent offense because MOBILE QBs GET HURT A LOT.

Unless the NFL passes some goofy rule to have a protection bubble for every QB running down the field...

As far as Texecutioner's hypothetical question: I'd say the answer would be that the QB who wins the off-season/pre-season would start.

I do not believe for an instant that loyalty trumps the right decision. Certainly Kubiak is loyal to Schaub, but I think Kubiak is a HC first and foremost and will pick whoever is the best person to win games for the Texans.
 
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