Oops, Personal Foul on FG was bad call

ObsiWan · Sep 10, 2013

NFL exec: Ref erred with foul call in Texans-Chargers

A rough opening week for NFL officials continues.

Dean Blandino, NFL vice president of officiating, said Tuesday on NFL Network's "NFL Total Access," that the wrong call was made when Chargers defensive tackle Cam Thomas was penalized 10 yards for unnecessary roughness after making contact with Texans long snapper Jon Weeks.

The penalty took a field goal off the board and awarded the Texans a first down from the Chargers' 9-yard line. Houston scored a touchdown on the next play from scrimmage to cut San Diego's lead to 28-21. The Texans went on to win, 31-28.

"No, this was not a correct call. This is not the intent of the rule as it was written," Blandino explained. "The rule is to protect the snapper on a field goal or extra point from a direct forcible blow to the head or neck area, or with the crown/forehead/hairline parts of the helmet to the body. It was not designed to prohibit any contact with the snapper, which is what happened on this play."

The rest is here...
LINK

All I know is the retired ref Chris Berman brought on board said it was a judgement call and the official was within his rights to call it as he saw it.

So there.

Of course, if I was a Charger fan, I'd be livid right about now.

paycheck71 · Sep 10, 2013

ObsiWan said:
NFL exec: Ref erred with foul call in Texans-Chargers

The rest is here...
LINK

All I know is the retired ref Chris Berman brought on board said it was a judgement call and the official was within his rights to call it as he saw it.

So there.

Of course, if I was a Charger fan, I'd be livid right about now.

Big deal. We drive down the field and score a TD to win at the end of the game instead of settling for a field goal. Same score. :kitten:

mattieuk · Sep 10, 2013

Meh - if we only got the field goal, we would have won the game with a TD rather than running the clock down for Bullock.

Edit: Doh...beaten to it by paycheck

Thorn · Sep 10, 2013

Bad calls are made every week in the NFL. We got one called for us this week. Next week it may go the other way. I wouldn't put a lot of significance on it. Most bad calls are not game changers except in the minds of fans.

gwallaia · Sep 10, 2013

The Chargers got away with a false start on a pass that got them near the end zone where they eventually scored. Tit for tat.

Vance87 · Sep 10, 2013

Chargers got away with:

An illegal pick on a TD (flag was picked up after Rivers yelled at them)
Several holds and hands to the face of JJ Watt
Delay of game by 3 seconds
At least one false start
AJ's catch that was ruled out of bounds

I'd say it was even.

Corrosion · Sep 10, 2013

Vance87 said:
Chargers got away with:

An illegal pick on a TD (flag was picked up after Rivers yelled at them)
Several holds and hands to the face of JJ Watt
Delay of game by 3 seconds
At least one false start
AJ's catch that was ruled out of bounds

I'd say it was even.

I agree with everything accept the bolded.

AJ was clearly out of bounds - he left his feet to make the catch and his elbow was the first thing to come down .... in the white.

Playoffs · Sep 10, 2013

Thought so.

They can't be making game-changing mistakes like that. Just wrong.

Hervoyel · Sep 10, 2013

At the time the "bad call" was made there was I believe 14:52 left in the fourth quarter/game. That's relevant because for the remainder of that time San Diego did jack-**** on offense and precious little on defense. That is the mark of a team that isn't ready to overcome adversity. We know exactly what that looks like because we saw it for quite a few years (and still see it from time to time depending on the situation).

The Chargers are putting together something there. They have a lot of talent but they weren't able to put that bad call behind them and get on with finishing the Texans off. Every game there are bad calls and every team faces them. If your team can't put them out of their collective minds and maintain their focus then they lose. It's almost a constant in the NFL.

Texan_Bill · Sep 10, 2013

ObsiWan said:
NFL exec: Ref erred with foul call in Texans-Chargers

The rest is here...
LINK

All I know is the retired ref Chris Berman brought on board said it was a judgement call and the official was within his rights to call it as he saw it.

So there.

Of course, if I was a Charger fan, I'd be livid right about now.

Well dude needs to be fired!!!

Dean Blandino, NFL vice president of officiating, said Tuesday on NFL Network's "NFL Total Access," that the wrong call was made when Chargers defensive tackle Cam Thomas was penalized 10 yards for unnecessary roughness after making contact with Texans long snapper Jon Weeks.

"unnecessary roughness" is a personal foul........ A 15 yard penalty. And yes, the rules did change a year or so ago about hitting the long snapper.

EllisUnit · Sep 10, 2013

So now we are getting discredited for the win ? I hate the media

DX-TEX · Sep 10, 2013

"It's a judgment call by the umpire, he's looking at that, and in his judgment, he felt that it was enough for a foul," Blandino said. "And in our review today, we felt that it was not."

So its a judgment call unless it counters our judgment then we will question your judegment and proceed with judgment?

Playoffs · Sep 10, 2013

EllisUnit said:
So now we are getting discredited for the win ? I hate the media

Media doesn't care about us. They're still chirping about Seahawks/Packers flub.

And it wasn't our bad. Refs blew the call, we just played it out. Winners win.

fiasco west · Sep 10, 2013

Coaches should be able to throw flags on penalties. That's what I think any ways.

With reviews coming within 2 minutes, after a change of possessions (so after all fumbles) and all TDs being reviewed, the red flag is usually kept in the pocket...

I think in fast motion it is easy to see how the Ref in live action could have saw more than what happened, in slo-motion it looks harmless. I'd love to see coaches be able to throw flags on penalties.

I know a lot of them are judgement calls any ways but some penalties are big penalties.

EllisUnit · Sep 10, 2013

Playoffs said:
Media doesn't care about us. They're still chirping about Seahawks/Packers flub.

And it wasn't our bad. Refs blew the call, we just played it out. Winners win.

Well when a call is if on an officials judgment then there is no right or wrong. If u watch the replays there was a lot of times JJ Watt got into the back field but the guard had his arms wrapped around JJ from behind, why werent those called, but the 2 little calls on jean were called ?

Fans of one team say no big deal until they get a call they think is un fair and vice versa. Oh well we won

b0ng · Sep 10, 2013

Anytime somebody in the media says its a judgement call, they are saying its a bad call. And it was a bad call.

DX-TEX · Sep 10, 2013

Definition of JUDGMENT

1

a : a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion

b : an opinion so pronounced

2

a : a formal decision given by a court

b (1) : an obligation (as a debt) created by the decree of a court (2) : a certificate evidencing such a decree

3

a capitalized : the final judging of humankind by God

b : a divine sentence or decision; specifically : a calamity held to be sent by God

4

a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing

b : an opinion or estimate so formed

5

a : the capacity for judging : discernment

b : the exercise of this capacity

6

: a proposition stating something believed or asserted

Opinion based. So it doesn't really matter what the article says the referee was right since he used his judgement. In his eyes it was a penalty

gwallaia · Sep 10, 2013

Its a mixed bag of responses to this call on the Chargers message board. Some are saying it directly cost them the game, others are saying the call can't be blamed for the Chargers melt-down. None of them however mention the obvious false start they got away with on that long pass play.

Tesuns · Sep 10, 2013

I really hope that all the Texans read it, not because they don't deserve the game, but they will play even harder knowing they might of been 0-1. This is not the same as the Packers/Seahawks game last year, so no robbery if Chargers missed out going to the dance by 1 game.

MEGA SWATT · Sep 10, 2013

Hervoyel said:
At the time the "bad call" was made there was I believe 14:52 left in the fourth quarter/game. That's relevant because for the remainder of that time San Diego did jack-**** on offense and precious little on defense. That is the mark of a team that isn't ready to overcome adversity. We know exactly what that looks like because we saw it for quite a few years (and still see it from time to time depending on the situation).

The Chargers are putting together something there. They have a lot of talent but they weren't able to put that bad call behind them and get on with finishing the Texans off. Every game there are bad calls and every team faces them. If your team can't put them out of their collective minds and maintain their focus then they lose. It's almost a constant in the NFL.

Yep

nero THE zero · Sep 11, 2013

Corrosion said:
I agree with everything accept the bolded.

AJ was clearly out of bounds - he left his feet to make the catch and his elbow was the first thing to come down .... in the white.

Can't comprehend how so many people, including the refs, saw it this way.

This was blatantly obvious to me (from TC's twitter feed):

thunderkyss · Sep 11, 2013

We've been on the wrong end of so many bad calls, I couldn't really care less about this one or how the Charger fans feel (no disrespect to them)... it is what it is.

Hervoyel said:
At the time the "bad call" was made there was I believe 14:52 left in the fourth quarter/game. That's relevant because for the remainder of that time San Diego did jack-**** on offense and precious little on defense. That is the mark of a team that isn't ready to overcome adversity. We know exactly what that looks like because we saw it for quite a few years (and still see it from time to time depending on the situation).

The Chargers are putting together something there. They have a lot of talent but they weren't able to put that bad call behind them and get on with finishing the Texans off. Every game there are bad calls and every team faces them. If your team can't put them out of their collective minds and maintain their focus then they lose. It's almost a constant in the NFL.

Well... if I were so eloquent ^^this^^ is what I would have said.

It's part of the game. If they can't get past a bad call, they don't deserve to win anyway.

thunderkyss · Sep 11, 2013

gwallaia said:
None of them however mention the obvious false start they got away with on that long pass play.

The one that really bugged me was the false start they called on us, that was the very definition of encroachment. I know we got one, but there was another that turned a 3rd & 3 into a 3rd & 8 (or something like that). The defensive lineman jumped into the neutral zone, our player flinched & they called false start.

If that defender is in the neutral zone when our guy flinched, that's on them, not us. They should have given us the first down.

But Schaub manned up & we got it anyway. So, no big deal. That's what good teams do when they've bad calls go against them.

El Tejano · Sep 11, 2013

Well right after that, Rivers threw a pick 6. They had their chance to overcome and didn't. These type of things have happened to us and no one cried so no tears are forming in my eyes.

ChampionTexan · Sep 11, 2013

nero THE zero said:
Can't comprehend how so many people, including the refs, saw it this way.

This was blatantly obvious to me (from TC's twitter feed):

The explanation was that at the point in the photo, Andre hadn't gained control, and the ball was still moving.

If that's true, the photo proves/disproves nothing, and I can't find any video of that particular play.

ObsiWan · Sep 11, 2013

ChampionTexan said:
The explanation was that at the point in the photo, Andre hadn't gained control, and the ball was still moving.

If that's true, the photo proves/disproves nothing, and I can't find any video of that particular play.

That's what I saw when I watched the video. At the instant this photo captured the ball had just - and I mean JUST - gotten to A.J.'s hands/body. The way the rules are now regarding possession of a reception, you have to gain control and then establish yourself on the field of play. A.J. gained control during his dive - which he's kinda just starting at this moment. He gained control mid-dive. Now he has to establish himself in bounds. Unfortunately, he landed elbow first. And that elbow was out of bounds.

Hate to say it, but they got it right.

disaacks3 · Sep 11, 2013

thunderkyss said:
The one that really bugged me was the false start they called on us, that was the very definition of encroachment. I know we got one, but there was another that turned a 3rd & 3 into a 3rd & 8 (or something like that). The defensive lineman jumped into the neutral zone, our player flinched & they called false start.

If that defender is in the neutral zone when our guy flinched, that's on them, not us. They should have given us the first down.

But Schaub manned up & we got it anyway. So, no big deal. That's what good teams do when they've bad calls go against them.

Yeah, they're getting really ticky-tack on those. If the O-Lineman doesn't flinch almost instantly, then it's on him.

Double Barrel · Sep 11, 2013

JJ was being held so much that this even things out. We saw dude with his entire arm wrapped around JJ's neck during a couple of plays, but nothing from the refs.

I honestly think the Texans would have won this game without the penalty. They were clearly gaining momentum, and the Chargers were completely ineffective by that point. Nothing makes me think this penalty was any kind of turning point. The better team won.

chicagotexan2 · Sep 11, 2013

Double Barrel said:
JJ was being held so much that this even things out. We saw dude with his entire arm wrapped around JJ's neck during a couple of plays, but nothing from the refs.

I honestly think the Texans would have won this game without the penalty. They were clearly gaining momentum, and the Chargers were completely ineffective by that point. Nothing makes me think this penalty was any kind of turning point. The better team won.

Yup the call helped but the momentum was clearly going in the texans direction. Either way the chargers got way too many non calls the helped them. Houston won SD lost the end

potisyourfriend · Sep 11, 2013

ChampionTexan said:
The explanation was that at the point in the photo, Andre hadn't gained control, and the ball was still moving.

If that's true, the photo proves/disproves nothing, and I can't find any video of that particular play.

I've watched a ton of plays where receivers catch the ball and pull it in when going out of bounds. But at the time the 2 feet touched, the ball was still above their shoulders. I still think the play was close enough not to reverse what was called on the field.

eriadoc · Sep 11, 2013

ObsiWan said:
That's what I saw when I watched the video. At the instant this photo captured the ball had just - and I mean JUST - gotten to A.J.'s hands/body. The way the rules are now regarding possession of a reception, you have to gain control and then establish yourself on the field of play. A.J. gained control during his dive - which he's kinda just starting at this moment. He gained control mid-dive. Now he has to establish himself in bounds. Unfortunately, he landed elbow first. And that elbow was out of bounds.

Hate to say it, but they got it right.

Well then, that Jordy Nelson catch was a non-catch. Every sideline toe-tap catch ever made is not a catch. AJ did his toe-tap a yard into the field of play. That ball was not moving around at all.

Double Barrel · Sep 11, 2013

eriadoc said:
Well then, that Jordy Nelson catch was a non-catch. Every sideline toe-tap catch ever made is not a catch. AJ did his toe-tap a yard into the field of play. That ball was not moving around at all.

I agree completely. I was surprised they overturned the call, because he clearly had two feet down when he caught it. Nothing in the replay was conclusive enough to overturn, IMO, but obviously, officials disagree.

HOU-TEX · Sep 11, 2013

How can the league say it was an incorrect call when this particular penalty is considered a judgment call from the official on the field? I thought the penalty was kinda weak, but if this ref thought the knee to Weeks' head was worthy of the call then so be it. Right? Or am I off-base here?

Dread-Head · Sep 11, 2013

Vance87 said:
Chargers got away with:

An illegal pick on a TD (flag was picked up after Rivers yelled at them)
Several holds and hands to the face of JJ Watt
Delay of game by 3 seconds
At least one false start
AJ's catch that was ruled out of bounds

I'd say it was even.

Not to mention that BLADANT pass interference call where a DB didn't even pretend to turn to face Schaub when he grabbed AJ.

Rey · Sep 11, 2013

eriadoc said:
Well then, that Jordy Nelson catch was a non-catch. Every sideline toe-tap catch ever made is not a catch. AJ did his toe-tap a yard into the field of play. That ball was not moving around at all.

The catches weren't similar.

Nelson caught the ball with two feet in while he was stretched over the out of bounds line. He clearly had possession. With two feet in bounds.

I need to see Andre's catch again, but that still photo proves nothing.

When I saw it during the game it looked incomplete, but like I said I'd be willing to look at it again.

The reason it looked incomplete is because he dove to make the catch. You have to establish possession/gain control while establishing yourself in bounds and maintain possession when hitting the ground.

Jordy Nelson clearly had control of the pass with two feet in bounds.

Andre didn't establish control until he was in mid air.

Speedy · Sep 11, 2013

Rey said:
Jordy Nelson clearly had control of the pass with two feet in bounds.

Nelson is still required to maintain possession when he hits the ground, which he did. If Nelson has control and 2 feet in, the catch is not complete until he hits the ground. If he catches the ball, has control, taps both feet in, then hits the ground and the ball pops out, it's an incomplete pass.

AJ's play was too close to call, therefore not enough to overturn, IMO. Very fine line between him having control and his feet leaving the ground.

Seegara · Sep 11, 2013

paycheck71 said:
Big deal. We drive down the field and score a TD to win at the end of the game instead of settling for a field goal. Same score.

There is one difference. If we're driving for a TD on our final possession, we try to preserve the clock instead of running it down. If we score we probably give them back the ball with enough time to try driving for a TD or FG.

CloakNNNdagger · Sep 11, 2013

The penalty call was definitely the WRONG call. With the present rules, these are the things that will lead to a penalty against the defense involving the long snapper.

During field goal and extra point attempts, defenders cannot line up directly across from the long snapper.

Long snappers on field goals and extra points are also considered defenseless players who receive all the protections for defenseless players. The snapper cannot be hit in the head while hes in the process of snapping the ball. Once he starts actively blocking, he is no longer considered defenseless.

The defender did not line up directly over Weeks. And, once the ball was snapped, Weeks attempted to block his man down low at which he was met by the body of the defender going over him, never being hit in the head, let alone with a helmet.

There should have been no penalty.

Texan_Bill · Sep 11, 2013

CloakNNNdagger said:
The penalty call was definitely the WRONG call. With the present rules, these are the things that will lead to a penalty against the defense involving the long snapper.

During field goal and extra point attempts, defenders cannot line up directly across from the long snapper.

Long snappers on field goals and extra points are also considered defenseless players who receive all the protections for defenseless players. The snapper cannot be hit in the head while hes in the process of snapping the ball. Once he starts actively blocking, he is no longer considered defenseless.

The defender did not line up directly over Weeks. And, once the ball was snapped, Weeks attempted to block his man down low at which he was met by the body of the defender going over him, never being hit in the head, let alone with a helmet.

There should have been no penalty.

DB, the new rule states that not only can someone not line-up head over the snapper, BUT can not hit the center as he is deemed "defenseless".

It may have been a ticky-tack call, but by the letter of the law, I believe it was a correct call.

CloakNNNdagger · Sep 11, 2013

Texan_Bill said:
DB, the new rule states that not only can someone not line-up head over the snapper, BUT can not hit the center as he is deemed "defenseless".

It may have been a ticky-tack call, but by the letter of the law, I believe it was a correct call.

The rule is as stated in my post. He was no longer considered a defenseless player at the time that he was hit.....he had already moved forward and assumed a blocking maneuver. He was fair game.

Uncle Rico · Sep 11, 2013

Not only was he NOT a defenseless player, the defender didn't strike him in the head, he attempted to leap over him (not sure if jumping over the snapper is also considered illegal)?

Texan_Bill · Sep 11, 2013

CloakNNNdagger said:
The rule is as stated in my post. He was no longer considered a defenseless player at the time that he was hit.....he had already moved forward and assumed a blocking maneuver. He was fair game.

Doc,

I apologize for "quoting" the wrong post.

In any event, I respectfully disagree. Well, mainly because it worked out in the Texans favor!

Texan_Bill · Sep 11, 2013

Uncle Rico said:
Not only was he NOT a defenseless player, the defender didn't strike him in the head, he attempted to leap over him (not sure if jumping over the snapper is also considered illegal)?

Only if he is "leveraged" over a player.

CloakNNNdagger · Sep 11, 2013

Uncle Rico said:
Not only was he NOT a defenseless player, the defender didn't strike him in the head, he attempted to leap over him (not sure if jumping over the snapper is also considered illegal)?

No, it is not illegal. It is illegal only for a defensive player to jump or stand on any player , or be picked up by a teammate or to use a hand or hands on a teammate to gain additional height in an attempt to block a kick.

Mr teX · Sep 11, 2013

Eeh, the refs were off all night...the 1st half we couldn't buy a penalty on SD..the 2nd half we got nearly every penalty. there were a ton of non calls that should've been made as JJ was getting held damn near every single play and on the other side Freeney was being held every other play as well. I think the refs, like us the fans, and to a certain extent the Texans team ( at least the 1st half anyway) clocks were just off b/c of the time difference.

For the life of me i dont understand why they keep putting SD on monday night especially the 2nd game of a monday night doubleheader....the ratings cant be that great considering how late it is for most fans across the nation and its during the week...

ObsiWan · Sep 11, 2013

Hey it makes up for all the times J.J. Watt was held - flat azz tackled on some plays - and nothing was called.

...so there.

Rey · Sep 11, 2013

Speedy said:
Nelson is still required to maintain possession when he hits the ground, which he did. If Nelson has control and 2 feet in, the catch is not complete until he hits the ground. If he catches the ball, has control, taps both feet in, then hits the ground and the ball pops out, it's an incomplete pass.

AJ's play was too close to call, therefore not enough to overturn, IMO. Very fine line between him having control and his feet leaving the ground.

????

What exactly are you adding? I left off the maintain possession through the fall as that was not relevant to the controversy here.

As far as AJ's catch, I disagree. I think there was enough to overturn it. He didn't establish control/possession until he was mid dive. The fact that the ball initially touched his hands with two feet on the ground doesn't matter. He didn't have control at that point.

infantrycak · Sep 12, 2013

Uncle Rico said:
Not only was he NOT a defenseless player, the defender didn't strike him in the head, he attempted to leap over him (not sure if jumping over the snapper is also considered illegal)?

Yes he IS a defenseless player:

In 2010, defensive players were prohibited from lining up over the snapper on scrimmage kicks. Now, in addition, on field-goal and PAT attempts the snapper has been afforded additional protections and will now be considered a defenseless player.

Link

It is not limited to striking the head or striking with the head - it is:

Forcibly hitting the defenseless players head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder,

Contact was made. He was defenseless. Now whether it was forcible is a discretionary call.

Corrosion · Sep 12, 2013

infantrycak said:
Now whether it was forcible is a discretionary call.

I wonder how many more times we see this called over the course of the season .... That's a tough call to make IMO.

thunderkyss · Sep 12, 2013

First, I think it's irrelevant. Good teams overcome bullsht...... bad teams don't. If this were to happen at the end of the game.... in the last two minutes I could understand the attention it is getting. But everyone here believe the Saints, Patriots, Broncos, & Packers would have too much time on the clock if there's more than 1:36 on the clock.

As it was mentioned earlier, we get that field goal, we still have to get a stop (which we did), then we can march down the field & get a TD & odds are good we get that touchdown if it's "4 down territory"

But for this discussion:

"Let's walk through the play last night first," Blandino said. "And you're going to see here, here's the center and it's going to be No. 92, Cam Thomas, that's going to make the contact. But basically there's some incidental contact with his left leg to the head/neck area, but that is not a foul. That is legal contact. This should not have been called. It's a judgment call by the umpire, he's looking at that, and in his judgment, he felt that it was enough for a foul. And in our review today, we felt that it was not.

Letter of the law, it's a foul. Their judgement.... that contact with the head was not the intent of the rule.

Corrosion said:
I wonder how many more times we see this called over the course of the season .... That's a tough call to make IMO.

If they do their job & review this call with the officials, probably not that often.

Would be nice if they carry this "intent" talk to QBs named Brady & Manning. I saw QBs taking good shots to the head, that weren't called personal fouls. No doubt in my mind if it were Brady or Manning, they would have been. (I think it was Matt Ryan... the end came around to swipe at the ball, but he got all helmet, Ryan kept the ball, then bounced up like it was no big deal. Of course, Peyton would have clutched his helmet & writhed in pain..... & Brady would get the call because he's so cute.).

Oops, Personal Foul on FG was bad call

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