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My 2 cents about taking Reggie Bush

C Madd

C Madd

Waterboy
Everyone seems to have a different idea about what the Texans should/will take in the draft this year. Obviously, I don't post much, just kind of lurk and read a lot of the posts, but I wanted to go ahead and throw my thoughts on the situation out there.

Houston is going to have to rebuild. No matter what their record ends up being, Houston is in major need of about every position on the field. We, as we have always, need a quality lineman or two. We could also use a linebacker, but I also think many of us here are in the agreement that it is going to take several years to rebuild this team, not just one year or one player. With that said, I think we should go ahead and draft Reggie Bush. If it is going to take several years to rebuild, why couldn't we take lineman in the 2nd round-7th round, or any year after this.

There are serviceable linemen almost every year that would be much better than anything we have right now, but how often does a player like Reggie Bush come along? One lineman isn't going to change the team and even though Reggie probably won't change it much, he definitely will be a start of a rebuild.

Now the argument will be made that we have Dominick Davis, but I honestly don't believe that matters. I dont' think you pass on this kind of talent unless you have a player like Shaun Alexander or Ladanian Tomlinson. Plus, maybe Dominck Davis could be turned into trade bait for a lineman or picks. Another argument will be made that Bush can't carry the load and he's too small. My answer to that is, why can't Houston run a "Thunder and Lightning" running game. I, personally, like the "Thunder and Lightning" idea and think that its a great plan. USC runs it right now and it works for them, and in the NFL, Atlanta, Denver and the New York Giants are just a few examples of teams that pull it off very effectively. It seems like its very dynamic, as you can have one player hit the outside and scamper, yet you have your big back who can bruise the defense. As a bonus, neither get all that tired and it will probably increase the durability of both as they're not having to carry a full load and get hit 30 times a game.

Like I stated before, its going to take several years for Houston to rebuild this team, and I believe good....hell very good linemen can be taken any of the upcoming years, or even in the later rounds this year....but you can't pass on a player like this.

P.S. So far, while typing this, Reggie Bush has ran for 6 billion yards in a quarter and a half so far against UCLA.
 
I agree that we should split up the RB duties a little more, but Davis isn't much of a thunder option for your thunder and lightning approach, plus we just signed him to a new deal so trading him off with result in a multi-million cap hit. If Gaffney ends up leaving in free agency, it could be interesting to see us draft him and use him primarily as a WR and then as a third down RB. While we wouldn't have a true #2 WR to complement AJ, having Mathis and Bush would provide two decent WR with some serious speed that would take attention away from Andre. Right now people don't even have to guard Bradford because he rarely catches anything, and they don't have to worry about Gaffney outrunning many people to the endzone, so if Gaff leaves I can definitely see us drafting Bush and using him as a WR/3rd down RB. If Gaff stays I have to say we trade down and fill other needs, although Bush is certainly a tantalizing talent.
 
I got somethin tantalizing for you Mork. Either way I agree with you and feel that you have an interesting point. Who would you compare Reggie Bush to as a WR?
 
OK. I think it will take him a year to learn how to properly run routes, but he should be decent WR. I was thinking Steve Smith at first, but now I am thinking more of a Laveraneous Coles
 
Houston wouldn't exactly have to use Davis as their "Thunder." We DO have Jonathan Wells, though he's not exactly the greatest RB. A big back that would be serviceable could be drafted in the later rounds, as well.
 
True, if we got Bush Davis could still be our main RB, Wells could come in for short yardage or occasional normal plays, and Bush could come in on third downs or on some regular plays as a change of pace, and then be used as a WR most of the time. That leaves Morency out of the equation though after spending a third rounder on him last year, and I think he could still be an effective RB if given the chance.
 
Upon drafting Reggie Bush I would trade Domanick Davis, if it were possible (and it may not be with his new salary) to someone in hopes of getting a 2, a 3, or possibly another player who could help me somewhere else. All things being equal I'd rather have a draft pick.

That's of course predicated on the idea that I was completely sold on Reggie Bush as my running back. As the first player taken in the draft he's going to command some bank and I can't see the Texans paying him and Davis what they would both cost (Casserly acted a bit too soon on that DD renegotiation IMO).
 
Hervoyel said:
Upon drafting Reggie Bush I would trade Domanick Davis, if it were possible (and it may not be with his new salary) to someone in hopes of getting a 2, a 3, or possibly another player who could help me somewhere else. All things being equal I'd rather have a draft pick.
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I'd agree with that statement if we knew what Morency could do. The coaching staff has, after promising to give him 10 touches a game, done nothing with him. He was easily our most electric player in the preseason but the coaches are horrible at evaulating talent and didnt let him see the field this year. I think we need to see what he has before we get rid of Davis. We keep Davis for one more year so we have a backup and it will also allow us to work Bush in slowly while also giving Morency some work so we can see if we have a cheap backup that will be effective.

There is also no way we get anything more than a 3rd for Davis.
 
Yeah I wouldn't count on getting anything more than a 3rd either. Didn't Buffalo get a 3rd for Travis Henry? That being said, I would take a 3rd because then we could package two 3rds to maybe get another 2nd. Then we could possibly get both Max Jean-Gilles and Leonard Pope.
 
I just want to draft Bush because it more than certainly spells the end for Tony Hollings. You have Norris as your FB, Davis as the starter for now, Wells as your servicable back up and bigger back for short yardage, Morency to split time with Davis, and Bush to learn the ropes and even see the field as a receiver.
 
If you are going to draft Bush, you are going to use him, not have him learn the ropes and never get a few touches here and there every once in a while. I would keep Norris and Wells like you said, get rid of Davis for a draft pick or possibly a player, and have Morency be a backup. You would have your "thunder and lightning" with Bush and Wells, a young cheap backup who has a lot of potential with Morency, and a quality full back with Norris. If Davis was making less money then I would keep him, but I think that we shouldn't tie up so much money into one position when we have several other areas that could use that money.
 
I like your scenario better although I for one would like to see one of our 1st rounders get the benefit of feeling out a season, especially if it is a rebuilding season. But hey, that is what trainging camp is for and I still agree that getting Bush means bye bye Tony Hollings.

But the #1 reason why you gotta get Bush is because DD in 3 years has proven that after the first 7 or so games he will get an injury that will keep him out every other game for 3 to 4 weeks.

People question Bush's endurance but when you have the stable of backs we could potentially have mixed in with the emergence of a bigger stronger JWells, How much endurance does this kid need? Also, why should endurance even be a question for this kid? Seems like he plays 4or5 different positions and is taking it to the house in everyone of those positions.

I wanted this kid last year too so I hope we get him.
 
I think Bush's endurance issue is more of a myth than a fact. Bush sees a lot of action from the sidelines for two major reasons.

1) Seems like every time he touches the ball he gets about 20 or 30 yards so he needs a rest.

2) Pete Carroll tries to get everyone involved so he makes sure that LenDale gets his carries and Matt gets his passing yards.

When you are blessed with a team as talented as his, you can afford to play like that. But if you noticed in the close games (ND and Fresno) Reggie Bush was the one carrying the load.
 
In these scenarios I think if you keep Davis which would tie up a lot of money in the backfield. Davis, Bush, Wells, and Morency. Morency and Hollings are obviously getting moved because they are dead money. Bush takes over as our WR/3rd down back if we keep Davis or our premeire RB if we let Davis go. The thing is Well will need more carries because Bush will not be an overly viable option on short yardage and goalline. Think about Clinton Portis on the goalline he just does not usually get the rock due to his size. Either way a rotation of Bush, Wells, and Morency would likely be our best option if taking Bush and using him at RB. If we take Bush and lose Gaffney. I say we use him in the before mentioned way and we have alot of options on the field for Kubiak to choose from.
 
Anyone throwing out ''trade Domanick" like it's no big deal needs to consider the 7 million or so cap hit that would go along with it. The Texans just gave him 8 million guaranteed and signed him through '09. In general, for every year prior to '09 that you release him, it will count an equal fraction of that guaranteed money.
 
It is a big concern that Bush is not the goal line back for his college team. Very disconcerting. The object of the game is to score more points than the opponent and the possible number one pick is not the frist choice on his college team. Is it an indictment of his ability or is Carroll stupid?

Bush is an exciting college player, but number 1 money coming from the Texans creates more questions than answers for the direction of this team.
 
We could always keep Dominick Davis around until his contract is up. I just don't think you can pass on someone of Reggie Bush's caliber. Linemen can be had anytime (free agency, upcoming drafts)...Reggie Bush cannot.
 
C Madd said:
We could always keep Dominick Davis around until his contract is up. I just don't think you can pass on someone of Reggie Bush's caliber. Linemen can be had anytime (free agency, upcoming drafts)...Reggie Bush cannot.
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You are talking NFL, not Madden, right?
 
Daonly said:
if K.C. can do it, with Holmes and Johnson, we can too, atleast bush can line up as a legit wideout.
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I have been saying this for a while. If we draft Bush, I would primarily line him up as a WR and put him in the backfield on certain situations and get him 5-10 carries a game. I would much rather have him running that silly WR reverse play than Gaffney, although I'd like to see that scratched from being a twice-a-game play.
 
Wouldn't Denver probably be the best example? Mike Anderson gets the bulk of the carries, but Tatum Bell is worked in for 10-12 carries and gets about 100yds/game. We could use an expanded version of this by having Reggie line up at receiver for a few snaps too.
 
tulexan said:
Wouldn't Denver probably be the best example? Mike Anderson gets the bulk of the carries, but Tatum Bell is worked in for 10-12 carries and gets about 100yds/game. We could use an expanded version of this by having Reggie line up at receiver for a few snaps too.
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I would agree with using Bush for 8-12 carries a game and then primarily as a WR, especially if Gaffney leaves in free agency this year. I think Hollings is getting released anyways so you guys don't have to worry about that, then keep Wells as a short yardage back and get him 4-6 carries a game and keep him on special teams and work him in as a FB at times to provide an additional threat since Norris isn't as good of a runner or receiver. That still leave Morency though and I'm not ready to give up on him year and waste last year's third round pick. If Gaffney leaves I'd have a hard time not drafting Bush if I was the GM, but if Gaffney stays I think I would probably have to trade the pick down and pick up Eric Winston to solidify our OL.
 
tulexan said:
Wouldn't Denver probably be the best example? Mike Anderson gets the bulk of the carries, but Tatum Bell is worked in for 10-12 carries and gets about 100yds/game. We could use an expanded version of this by having Reggie line up at receiver for a few snaps too.
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Yeah, I mentioned Denver in my earlier post. They're a very good example of the Thunder and Lightning method that I think can be used very effectively with Reggie Bush (they have the number 1 running game in the NFL). As for using Bush as a WR, that could be a possibility, as well as running some sort of split back set, and having him come out of the backfield for passes. I don't believe there are many linebackers or ever safeties in the league that could keep up with him.

I would definitely want to see Bush get at least 10 carries a game though, if drafted. Anything less would be not utilizing him correctly.
 
KC and Denver have an offensive line that ANYONE and their grandmother can rush for 1000 yards behind.
 
Duration Problems? When you have both Reggie Bush and LenDale White in the same backfeild (White will be a frst round pick next year) why would you let Bush get so tired that he couldn't be explosive when you got a back that is just as good sitting on the sidelines? My God he had over 500 total yards in the Fresno St. game. I really don't see a duration problem there.
 
aj. said:
Anyone throwing out ''trade Domanick" like it's no big deal needs to consider the 7 million or so cap hit that would go along with it. The Texans just gave him 8 million guaranteed and signed him through '09. In general, for every year prior to '09 that you release him, it will count an equal fraction of that guaranteed money.
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Yeah, hence the following

Me said:
Upon drafting Reggie Bush I would trade Domanick Davis, if it were possible (and it may not be with his new salary) to someone in hopes of getting a 2, a 3, or possibly another player who could help me somewhere else. All things being equal I'd rather have a draft pick.
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I thought that if you traded him then the burden for his salary went to the team that took him and that in the event of a trade there would be no adverse effect on the Texans cap. Was I wrong? IANAC - I Am Not A Capologist so I could very well be. Of course if we just released him then yes I understand that we take the pounding on that.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
It is a big concern that Bush is not the goal line back for his college team. Very disconcerting. The object of the game is to score more points than the opponent and the possible number one pick is not the frist choice on his college team. Is it an indictment of his ability or is Carroll stupid?

Bush is an exciting college player, but number 1 money coming from the Texans creates more questions than answers for the direction of this team.
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Didn't the Jaguars use Stacy Mack much of the time in goal line and short yardage situations instead of Fred Taylor? Does that mean that Stacy Mack is a better back than Fred Taylor?

Apple and oranges guys. This does not worry me.
 
The Giants don't use Tiki Barber for goal line situations. The Falcons don't use Warrick Dunn for goal line situations.
 
Hervoyel said:
Didn't the Jaguars use Stacy Mack much of the time in goal line and short yardage situations instead of Fred Taylor? Does that mean that Stacy Mack is a better back than Fred Taylor?

Apple and oranges guys. This does not worry me.
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Was Taylor the first pick in the draft? No. So you are comfortable spending first pick money on a guy that is not an every down back on his college team? This is about value and production at the position.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
Was Taylor the first pick in the draft? No. So you are comfortable spending first pick money on a guy that is not an every down back on his college team? This is about value and production at the position.
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But that's not what you said this was about. You said that it was a concern that Bush wasn't used as a goal line back by his team. How many backs did Auburn get carries last season? Where were they drafted? Niether of them was their teams every down back so obviously the Bucs and Dolphins made a couple of big mistakes drafting those guys.

How many Longhorn backs got carries in Texas win over Colorado yesterday? Since none of those guys took all the carries I guess every one will be a fourth rounder who better be able to play special teams.

Reggie Bush doesn't get all the carries at USC because Reggie Bush doesn't have to be given all the carries at USC. How many RB's do you think the Trojans have on their team? I imagine it's a few more than the 3-4 that most NFL teams can afford to keep.
 
Hervoyel said:
But that's not what you said this was about. You said that it was a concern that Bush wasn't used as a goal line back by his team. How many backs did Auburn get carries last season? Where were they drafted? Niether of them was their teams every down back so obviously the Bucs and Dolphins made a couple of big mistakes drafting those guys.

How many Longhorn backs got carries in Texas win over Colorado yesterday? Since none of those guys took all the carries I guess every one will be a fourth rounder who better be able to play special teams.

Reggie Bush doesn't get all the carries at USC because Reggie Bush doesn't have to be given all the carries at USC. How many RB's do you think the Trojans have on their team? I imagine it's a few more than the 3-4 that most NFL teams can afford to keep.
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We just are going to see a eye to eye on this one. I cannot fathom signing someone at #1 and not have that person be an every down player for their unit.
 
One good thing with Bush not taking all the snaps at USC is that he won't have all the hits and leg use that Cedric Benson had when he came out. Low miles on the shinny Bush unit. A concern though is that he will have shoulder surgery in the off season. Probably nothing to be to worked up over, but something to watch.
 
Hervoyel said:
I thought that if you traded him then the burden for his salary went to the team that took him and that in the event of a trade there would be no adverse effect on the Texans cap. Was I wrong? IANAC - I Am Not A Capologist so I could very well be. Of course if we just released him then yes I understand that we take the pounding on that.
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His base salary will be adopted by his new team, but all the signing bonus we just gave him ($7-8 million, I don't remember for sure) is still paid by us, and if we trade him it all counts against our salary cap next year rather than being split up evenly over the duration of his contract, so we would be paying him $7-8 million and have $7-8 million less money available to the rest of our roster for not even getting to use him.
 
MorKnolle said:
His base salary will be adopted by his new team, but all the signing bonus we just gave him ($7-8 million, I don't remember for sure) is still paid by us, and if we trade him it all counts against our salary cap next year rather than being split up evenly over the duration of his contract, so we would be paying him $7-8 million and have $7-8 million less money available to the rest of our roster for not even getting to use him.
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Thank you, I did not know that. Seems like this is a problem then if you share my opinion about the Reggie Bush question as it makes that course of action less likely.
 
Hervoyel said:
Thank you, I did not know that. Seems like this is a problem then if you share my opinion about the Reggie Bush question as it makes that course of action less likely.
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Bush will be a nice talent in this league, but we can't really give up Davis right now and I still like Davis as a RB. We could use Bush as a WR/3rd down RB but bringing him in as a full-time RB would not be a good use of money. He could also return punts since Mathis is not real good at it. Unfortunately we have a couple other players with similar contract situations that I otherwise would like to see out of here next year (Todd Wade). Greenwood got a lot of total money but didn't get much of a signing bonus so we could cut him without taking much of a cap hit (I think only $600k), and he is getting a pretty high base salary so we could cut (or trade if we can find anyone interested) him and clear up cap room.
 
I'm not exactly knowledged about cap hits, but if the opportunity arose to get a good lineman, good picks, etc, would it not be worth it to take the hit for the year? Would the "opportunity cost" of keeping Davis, if Bush IS drafted and a good deal is available, outweigh the cost of his cap hit?

Personally, I don't think we would get offered too terribly much for Davis, but I could be wrong. (unfortunately I am more than I like)
 
I don't know how much we could get in a trade for Davis, but taking on $8 cap hit next year doesn't seem to be worth it, especially if we're going to draft Bush at #1 and then pay him $40 over the next 5 yeards. I still like Davis and think he should be a RB here for a long time.
 
If we get the number one draft pick, we have to draft Reggie Bush. If DD could run for 155 yards today, just imagine what Reggie could do!
 
As long as we are imagining.. imagine how much DD could run for if Carr had the protection to get our passing game going.

Imagine how great Johnson would be doing if we could let him go deep more.

Imagine how great it would be to have a real TE.

Imagine what it would be like to have a dependable pass rush.

Imagine having a defense that can stop a team from marching down field and scoring the game winning field goal in the last minute of play.

Now..

Imagine all the holes we would need to fill to reach all of those goals.

Imagine how we would get enough quality players to fix alot of these problems.

Then imagine us trading the #1 pick away to someone who is desperate for Bush, and picking up a few more first day picks so we can fix the important problems.
 
Grid said:
As long as we are imagining.. imagine how much DD could run for if Carr had the protection to get our passing game going.

Imagine how great Johnson would be doing if we could let him go deep more.

Imagine how great it would be to have a real TE.

Imagine what it would be like to have a dependable pass rush.

Imagine having a defense that can stop a team from marching down field and scoring the game winning field goal in the last minute of play.

Now..

Imagine all the holes we would need to fill to reach all of those goals.

Imagine how we would get enough quality players to fix alot of these problems.

Then imagine us trading the #1 pick away to someone who is desperate for Bush, and picking up a few more first day picks so we can fix the important problems.
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I can hear John Lennon singing, "Imagine all the Texans...
 
For the love of God, if we have the first pick and don't take Bush, I think I would break down and cry. Sure we could fill some holes with mediocre players, and I know football is a "team sport" but if anybody is gonna throw out the one-guy-can't-make-a-difference cliche, take a look at LT.
 
great post grid and I somewhat agree with you...we have huge gaping holes almost everywhere now....but can we actually pass on that kind of talent??

Im not sure on who we should/will draft but lets just hope they produce on the next level and come in here with a work ethic and attitude to win.
 
but if anybody is gonna throw out the one-guy-can't-make-a-difference cliche, take a look at LT.
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one guy can make a DIFFERENCE.. one guy CANT win all your games. If you need evidence of one good player not making a winning team.. look at the Chargers BEFORE Antonio Gates and BEFORE Drew Brees became a real QB.

We need more than an LT.. and Bush is a COLLEGE PLAYER.. he is not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination.. we need to quit acting like he is. We have a quality RB group already.. it isnt a weakness of ours. If we were one playmaker on offense away from being a competitive team.. id be all for drafting Bush, but we arent... not even close.
 
Grid said:
one guy can make a DIFFERENCE.. one guy CANT win all your games. If you need evidence of one good player not making a winning team.. look at the Chargers BEFORE Antonio Gates and BEFORE Drew Brees became a real QB.

We need more than an LT.. and Bush is a COLLEGE PLAYER.. he is not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination.. we need to quit acting like he is. We have a quality RB group already.. it isnt a weakness of ours. If we were one playmaker on offense away from being a competitive team.. id be all for drafting Bush, but we arent... not even close.
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Excellent opinion. I too would have a hard time passing on Reggie Bush but I think we it would be better for our team to fill other holes.
 
Grid said:
We need more than an LT.. and Bush is a COLLEGE PLAYER.. he is not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination..
So where do all the non-COLLEGE PLAYERS come from in this years draft. And sure things are not real. Nobody plays football the same way all the time. Injury,team philosphy, and several other factors can change a sure thing into nothing. But this is a game and as an owner of a team in this league you must gamble on the talent that comes out of COLLEGE or that you can buy off another team. Your best play would be to get the best talent you can all the time. Hold an Ace even if you don't need one, hoping you can get a pair as the game goes on.
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one way or another Bush is worth at least a couple birds in the hand :rolleyes: something that no one has yet considered is in fact a trade with a team willing to deal a player the Texans covet plus picks to aquire a talent like Bush.

having the #1 pick is important IF its handled properly, the question to me is- "Do we trust Casserly to make the right move?"
 
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