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Vance Joseph on DBs

thunderkyss

thunderkyss

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Check out this podcast, from last Thursday (Valentines) he said a couple of things I thought was interesting, so check it out & let's discuss.

You'll need to go down & click on the one that says, "DB coach, Vance Joseph on DBs"

I'd have liked to hear them ask him what it's like working with Wade.


& if he'd be interested in taking over STs.
 
thunderkyss said:
Check out this podcast, from last Thursday (Valentines) he said a couple of things I thought was interesting, so check it out & let's discuss.

You'll need to go down & click on the one that says, "DB coach, Vance Joseph on DBs"

I'd have liked to hear them ask him what it's like working with Wade.


& if he'd be interested in taking over STs.
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I didn't see your post until I began a new Thread re "Special Teams Assistant Coordinators." If the Texans are insistant on keeping Marciano, it would be nice to at least have another legitimate voice in the mix.
 
The thing I found most interesting is when asked what his role was for FA, he said his job was to find replacements for the guys, in case we aren't able to keep Quin & McClain.
 
So, what I got was...

  • KJ was a poor technician, now that's fixed
  • McCain excels at covering the little, fast slot guys
  • Brandon Harris needed to get his body in shape first, which he has, now needs experience
  • Keo needs playing experience
  • Roc Carmichael still needs to develop his body
  • Eddie Pleasant needs to get into his playbook and learn what to do

What he's focusing on at the combine: drills, 40. Interview, not so much
 
Strange how one coaching staff thought KJ was the most NFL Ready CB in his draft. But the next coaching staff thought he was a poor technician.
 
TheRealJoker said:
Strange how one coaching staff thought KJ was the most NFL Ready CB in his draft. But the next coaching staff thought he was a poor technician.
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They were probably considering the system they would use. For whatever Gibbs was doing, he was the most ready, Pollard was also a good fit. For what Vance is doing, Kj needed to learn the technique, & Pollard was a square peg.
 
thunderkyss said:
They were probably considering the system they would use. For whatever Gibbs was doing, he was the most ready, Pollard was also a good fit. For what Vance is doing, Kj needed to learn the technique, & Pollard was a square peg.
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"NFL Ready" normally equates to being ready to play day 1 in any scheme in the NFL from what I've come to learn. Those that have limitations are normally described as such w/ descriptions such as "cover 2 type" or "press cb". Normally meaning they lack in 1 style while possibly being better suited for the other. KJ was just described as "NFL ready" by the Texans FO which includes a seasoned NFL coach & former DB for a GM. Obviously KJ was not "NFL ready" regardless of scheme & it seems he was evaluated improperly by those that chose him. It seems that Vance is at least willing to admit that even if some of us remain in denial.

I think KJ can get better, but at least it was nice to finally see some noticeable improvement. Hopefully it continues.
 
ProFootballFocus rated KJ overall 14th out of 113 CBs in 2012 and 11th/113 in pass coverage. (minimum 25% team snaps)

In the playoffs, KJ was rated overall 3/46 and JJo 5/46. (no minimum snaps)
 
Playoffs said:
ProFootballFocus rated KJ overall 14th out of 113 CBs in 2012 and 11th/113 in pass coverage. (minimum 25% team snaps)

In the playoffs, KJ was rated overall 3/46 and JJo 5/46. (no minimum snaps)
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That's good to know. He still has issues getting his around but he's timing getting his hands up at the right time a lot better. Also still has an issue or 2 w/ double moves, but most definitely improved. I wish he could play tighter to line instead of using his cushion as a safety net from getting burned, but he is showing signs of improvement & hopefully it continues. Doesn't erase the incorrect evaluation of him out of college, but the Texans seem to be finally heading towards getting what they paid for.
 
Playoffs said:
So, what I got was...


  • [*]KJ was a poor technician, now that's fixed
  • McCain excels at covering the little, fast slot guys
  • Brandon Harris needed to get his body in shape first, which he has, now needs experience
  • Keo needs playing experience
  • Roc Carmichael still needs to develop his body
  • Eddie Pleasant needs to get into his playbook and learn what to do

What he's focusing on at the combine: drills, 40. Interview, not so much
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What I said about KJ from beginning, more important than being right is knowing the coach has fixed him. If Harris, Roc and Pleasant step up this season--great!
 
tru80texan said:
"NFL Ready" normally equates to being ready to play day 1 in any scheme in the NFL from what I've come to learn. Those that have limitations are normally described as such w/ descriptions such as "cover 2 type" or "press cb". Normally meaning they lack in 1 style while possibly being better suited for the other. KJ was just described as "NFL ready" by the Texans FO which includes a seasoned NFL coach & former DB for a GM. Obviously KJ was not "NFL ready" regardless of scheme & it seems he was evaluated improperly by those that chose him. It seems that Vance is at least willing to admit that even if some of us remain in denial.

I think KJ can get better, but at least it was nice to finally see some noticeable improvement. Hopefully it continues.
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When KJ revealed that he was going to enter the NFL Draft after his Junior year at Alabama, Saban specifically (made widely public) told him he was not NFL ready. The Texans knew this............yet the Texans' brain trust, just like KJ himself, knew better and still said he was NFL ready (immediately ready to start at CB) simply based on the fact that he was coming from Saban's Alabama pro style sets. Saban told him he needed to return for his senior year to adequately prepare for his NFL debut.


Tide's Kareem Jackson passes on Saban's advice, enters NFL draft

Published: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 10:24 AM

TUSCALOOSA -- Alabama junior cornerback Kareem Jackson said it was "a real tough decision," but one he'd made a while ago.

Jackson said Friday he will forego his senior season at Alabama and enter the 2010 NFL draft. Friday was the deadline for underclassmen to declare.

After the BCS national title game, Jackson returned home to discuss the situation with family. He then came back to Tuscaloosa and met with Crimson Tide coach Nick Saban, who advised Jackson to return for another year.

"We had a couple of conversations about it," Jackson told the Press-Register. "He thought that I should come back for my senior year, but it was good. We left things on good terms. He told me he'd help me any way he can.

"He just gave me his opinion on it, and regardless of the situation, that's my coach and I respect him. He's made me the player that I am. I have to give all the credit to him."

Jackson said he had made up his mind to leave early but waited to publicly reveal it.

"I think I made the right decision," he said. "I'm pretty confident about it. I'm just ready to get to work and kind of prove myself to be a player at the next level."
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************

The Texans continued to keep the myth going.:

Rotoworld
Texans coach Gary Kubiak said that first-round CB Kareem Jackson is "way ahead" of where most rookies are right now.
Jackson is already running with the first team and he'll almost certainly be there on opening day. The 20th overall pick benefited greatly from playing in Nick Saban's defense at Alabama and we don't expect him to be a liability as a rookie.
Source: Houston Chronicle
Wed, Jun 2, 2010 09:19:00 AM
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CND I remember all that and kept going no, no no. It has worked out but now we need Harris & Carmichael to improve. That would really strengthen our D.
 
tru80texan said:
"NFL Ready" normally equates to being ready to play day 1 in any scheme in the NFL from what I've come to learn. Those that have limitations are normally described as such w/ descriptions such as "cover 2 type" or "press cb". Normally meaning they lack in 1 style while possibly being better suited for the other. KJ was just described as "NFL ready" by the Texans FO which includes a seasoned NFL coach & former DB for a GM. Obviously KJ was not "NFL ready" regardless of scheme & it seems he was evaluated improperly by those that chose him. It seems that Vance is at least willing to admit that even if some of us remain in denial.

I think KJ can get better, but at least it was nice to finally see some noticeable improvement. Hopefully it continues.
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Since when does nfl ready mean that a player can be effective in any system? NFL ready simply means that a guy is good enough at what he does to play his position, which many times is scheme oriented, and compete in the nfl right now. It doesn't mean he is ready to be a star or able to play in any scheme.
 
TexansSeminole said:
Since when does nfl ready mean that a player can be effective in any system? NFL ready simply means that a guy is good enough at what he does to play his position, which many times is scheme oriented, and compete in the nfl right now. It doesn't mean he is ready to be a star or able to play in any scheme.
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So even by your own definition the Texans evaluation was completely wrong because Kareem was anything but ready to compete in the NFL as a rookie. Normally competing equates to being somewhat effective, so I'm not quite sure what your argument is because Kareem wasnt effective in any scheme nor did he compete. This has NOTHING to do w/ being a "star" & everything to do w/ being able to at least hold your own a majority of the time which is what the Texans falsely believed & preached. We all know that the Texans were looking for a cb & wanted one that could start from day 1 w/ the 1st round pick. They werent picking Kareem to be the "NFL ready" bench warmer. KJ was a starter as soon as the Texans called his name & obviously he was not ready for the NFL.
 
badboy said:
CND I remember all that and kept going no, no no. It has worked out but now we need Harris & Carmichael to improve. That would really strengthen our D.
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I really like Harris. He struggled at times, but that was against the likes of Wes Welker. He made some decent plays on the ball & at least seemed to be in the area at all times. I think some more playing time is all that he needs & he will develop into a true asset. I wouldn't be surprised if McCain is allowed to walk & they allow Harris to step up. I'm not quite sold on Carmichael. I hope he comes around, but I wasn't high on him when he was drafted. You can never have too many decent cb's.
 
While I like the idea of spreading Vance Joseph into the realm of ST's, I would also rather him stay 100% focused on the secondary, including Kareem Jackson's improvement.

Marciano's ST's have sucked over the last two years, BUT he does have an overall good track record. Maybe the Texans should hire him an assistant that is an up and comer, ballsy effer.
 
Texan_Bill said:
While I like the idea of spreading Vance Joseph into the realm of ST's, I would also rather him stay 100% focused on the secondary, including Kareem Jackson's improvement.

Marciano's ST's have sucked over the last two years, BUT he does have an overall good track record. Maybe the Texans should hire him an assistant that is an up and comer, ballsy effer.
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I cant recall the ST's ever really being an asset & they have been under Marciano's watch since day 1. In fact, I think it could easily be said that the ST's are regressing. 2010 was an ugly year for the Texans & ST's definitely had their lows that year as well. I think the last 3 years they have sucked to be honest. An assistant ST's coach isn't needed...a new ST's coach all together is imo.
 
tru80texan said:
So even by your own definition the Texans evaluation was completely wrong because Kareem was anything but ready to compete in the NFL as a rookie. Normally competing equates to being somewhat effective, so I'm not quite sure what your argument is because Kareem wasnt effective in any scheme nor did he compete. This has NOTHING to do w/ being a "star" & everything to do w/ being able to at least hold your own a majority of the time which is what the Texans falsely believed & preached. We all know that the Texans were looking for a cb & wanted one that could start from day 1 w/ the 1st round pick. They werent picking Kareem to be the "NFL ready" bench warmer. KJ was a starter as soon as the Texans called his name & obviously he was not ready for the NFL.
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I never said anything about Kareem and my comment was meant to be an overall obvious definition of the term "NFL ready." The definition I gave is clearly what the term means. As far as Kareem, he obviously was not "NFL ready." He has since improved and now is a formidable player. So, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? That the Texans FO was wrong initially? Yes, your right about that.

I guess my post was simply to say that everything in your post is exaggerated garbage outside of you saying that the FO was initially wrong in its evaluation of Kareem. I'm sorry, I tend to come out of the shadows when I read posts that are so far from correct.

To act as if every potential prospect is not evaluated with scheme in mind by every single team that evaluates them is just wrong.
 
TexansSeminole said:
I never said anything about Kareem and my comment was meant to be an overall obvious definition of the term "NFL ready." The definition I gave is clearly what the term means. As far as Kareem, he obviously was not "NFL ready." He has since improved and now is a formidable player. So, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? That the Texans FO was wrong initially? Yes, your right about that.

I guess my post was simply to say that everything in your post is exaggerated garbage outside of you saying that the FO was initially wrong in its evaluation of Kareem. I'm sorry, I tend to come out of the shadows when I read posts that are so far from correct.

To act as if every potential prospect is not evaluated with scheme in mind by every single team that evaluates them is just wrong.
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I'm not trying to prove anything. It's already been proven & I'm just stating it, which by the way you have admitted what I'm saying is correct. You responded to me, you were not part of my original post so it seems it is you who is trying to prove something but have failed to accomplish it. KJ was incorrectly evaluated by the FO & Kubiak despite their claims that he was "NFL Ready". That is fact, not exaggeration. It is also fact that the player selected was expected to be a starter day 1 & many, analysts & fans, were surprised by the Jackson pick & questioned it considering others such McCourty, Wilson, & Robinson were all still available to be selected & by far touted more then Kareem prior to the draft. The Texans justification for passing on the others & selecting KJ was that he was "NFL Ready".

Once again, "NFL ready" normally means ready to play & compete on the NFL level, as we have both agreed on, & if there are faults in ones game it normally noted & examined to no end prior to the draft. While all rookies need some developing those that are deemed "NFL ready" are normally used to describe the better ones that need little development to compete day 1 & other descriptions are used to describe those that lack in certain areas IMO. Words such as "raw" for example. I hope that helps clear up my definition of " NFL ready" for you because there was hardly much exaggeration, if any, & for the most part you seem to agree w/ most & yet fail to realize it. I suppose we will agree to disagree despite agreeing on most of my so-called "exaggeration". The shadows do seem best for some folks.
 
tru80texan said:
"NFL Ready" normally equates to being ready to play day 1 in any scheme in the NFL from what I've come to learn. Those that have limitations are normally described as such w/ descriptions such as "cover 2 type" or "press cb". Normally meaning they lack in 1 style while possibly being better suited for the other.
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To say that a player deemed "NFL ready" should be ready to play day 1 in any scheme is exaggeration.

Every player has limitations. 99% of players are better suited for one scheme over another. There are always areas that players excel at more than others.

Point is, it is unnecessary to exaggerate in order to prove a point, such as that Kareem was improperly evaluated by the Texans FO. That point is easily proven without exaggeration. It is something people tend to do on message boards to try and stand out, they start to exaggerate to make a point that hasn't been made before. It is why many threads turn into an unrealistic black and white discussion. Sorry it is just a pet peeve of mine. Carry on.
 
TexansSeminole said:
To say that a player deemed "NFL ready" should be ready to play day 1 in any scheme is exaggeration.

Every player has limitations. 99% of players are better suited for one scheme over another. There are always areas that players excel at more than others.

Point is, it is unnecessary to exaggerate in order to prove a point, such as that Kareem was improperly evaluated by the Texans FO. That point is easily proven without exaggeration. It is something people tend to do on message boards to try and stand out, they start to exaggerate to make a point that hasn't been made before. It is why many threads turn into an unrealistic black and white discussion. Sorry it is just a pet peeve of mine. Carry on.
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Then that is a mistake that is made by many associated w/ the NFL (analysts, draft experts, scouts, coaches, GM's, agents) year in & year out, but is hardly an exaggeration on some accounts as rookies have been able to come into the NFL & successfully contribute day 1. So the "NFL ready" description can be & has been accurate for some. It just so happens Kubiak & the Texans FO were wrong on their claim. Once again, if it was an exaggeration it was not one that I made, but one that I only revisited. Don't shoot the messenger.
 
tru80texan said:
KJ was incorrectly evaluated by the FO & Kubiak despite their claims that he was "NFL Ready". That is fact, not exaggeration. It is also fact that the player selected was expected to be a starter day 1 & many, analysts & fans, were surprised by the Jackson pick & questioned it considering others such McCourty, Wilson, & Robinson were all still available to be selected & by far touted more then Kareem prior to the draft. The Texans justification for passing on the others & selecting KJ was that he was "NFL Ready".
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Well, I do remember they said most NFL ready. I don't know if they said most NFL ready in the draft, or the most NFL ready of the remaining DBs.

I don't know this Robinson guy you speak of, but I do remember many people had Wilson & McCourty rated above Kj.

As far as I know, Wilson is still not a starter on his team. McCourty did have a great rookie season, but the Patriots did move him to safety. One could say that McCourty was the most NFL ready, but if you watch how the defenses played around them, it could be argued that Kj was actually the most NFL ready.
 
Found this Nov. 2010 piece pretty interesting in the context of "NFL ready" and this discussion.

Cutting Corners: The Kareem Jackson Pick in Hindsight

But after the past couple of drafts, many are starting to wonder if they were smart in 2006, or just lucky. These are the same guys who drafted Amobi Okoye, Duane Brown and the new whipping boy of Battle Red nation, Kareem Jackson. And these were just the first round picks. We’ve debated wildly over the Amobi pick many times over, so I won’t rehash that here, and if you’ve read anything that Rivers has written, you can’t really argue about the many failings of Duane Brown. What I want to spotlight today is looking at the Kareem Jackson pick in hindsight and who Houston passed on to take him. It all begins after the jump…

You can look back at the 2007 and 2008 drafts and see some of the Pro Bowl players Houston missed out on, but I want to focus on the 2010 draft. Before the draft even began, most were on the "Best Corner Available at #20" bandwagon. Even though there were about 17 articles here on BRB about why we should draft a fat ass lineman and they made a lot of sense, we all knew that wasn't going to happen with a Bill Kollar scheme.

So, with the focus on the secondary, and mainly the cornerback position with the departure of Dunta Robinson, the wish lists all came out. Some were fathomable, while others were beyond a pipe dream, like some believing that Joe Haden would drop to #20 because of a poor pro day. There was plenty of first round talent corners and with the 17 teams in front of Houston (the 49ers and Seahawks both had two picks in the first round) seemingly having more pressing needs, there should be a steal waiting at #20.

After Haden was selected by Cleveland and Ryan Mathews (who John McClain was CERTAIN Houston would pick) went off the board to San Diego, there was still some good talent on the board. When Seattle crushed the hearts of the UT faithful on BRB by taking Safety Earl Thomas, all eyes turned to Boise State standout CB Kyle Wilson (who was who I had personally campaigned for) and Rutgers CB Devin McCourty. Either would be a huge upgrade for the Texans' weak secondary and a relative steal at #20. And it appeared one of them would be a Texan when Houston went on the clock with both still there. We all know what happened next...

"With the 20th pick in the 2010 NFL Draft, Houston selects Kareem Jackson, Cornerback, Alabama."

This was met with immediate shock on the draft thread here on BRB. Who?!?! That was the immediate reaction. The guy was projected to be a second-rounder at best. I even recall seeing some that had him slipping to the early third round. It was a real head scratcher, for sure. Perhaps not a "reach" by definition, but a "reach" in the opinions of many.

To be honest, the fallout didn't last that long. It quickly turned to statements like "Well, he played in the SEC" and "Smithiak knows what they're doing." But after eight games in the NFL, Kareem Jackson looks like an undrafted free agent. He is good to get burned at least once or twice on a big play every single game, and he's picked on by opposing quarterbacks all game long. This has led many to label the youngster a bust.

Personally, I'm not there...yet. He is definitely a project and he shouldn't be starting, that's for sure. Do I think he'll be a great corner someday? Probably not. Will he be an NFL caliber corner? Probably. Someday. My problem with the pick is that you don't take a project guy at #20 overall, especially when there were more NFL ready corners available at that spot.

It isn't like Frank Bush's defensive scheme is helping Jackson any, but at some point you have to at least show some flashes of why you were a first round selection and the second corner taken overall in a very stacked draft. Sure, he has two interceptions and that is more than Dunta has done in Atlanta, but those are attributed more to bad throws by opposing QBs after taking a big hit. Plus, Kareem's tackling has been just beyond poor. There was a play in the game yesterday where he got turned around twice in pursuit of a ball carrier and let a 10 yard gain turn into about a 40 yard gain. He just flat out looked drunk on the play and it made me want to get (even more) drunk myself.
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link
 
Good find CND, I liked McCourty and my draft partners and I discussed him at length but I was huge supporter of Wilson. I am okay with where KJ is now but believe Wilson under Texans new coaches would be even better. My focus today is on Harris and Roc developing into better players. I read that the DB coach said Harris is now in playing shape. So go get some!
 
badboy said:
Good find CND, I liked McCourty and my draft partners and I discussed him at length but I was huge supporter of Wilson. I am okay with where KJ is now but believe Wilson under Texans new coaches would be even better.
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That's very possible.

One thing about Kj though, how many players do you think would be strong enough to go through what he went through in 2010 & still have the confidence to play at a high level?

Frank Bush was still Frank Bush & I don't think any corner would have fared any better considering everything else that defense went through.

I also think Wilson is in a "bad" situation & him not starting doesn't say anything about his performance. Letting Revis go would say a lot. Paying a shtload of money to Revis would as well.

I would have preferred the Jets way of addressing that situation much better than ours. They had a good CB, they traded for a "decent" CB, & they drafted the best CB available to them. They also acquired Kerry Rhodes who I thought was a pretty good safety back in the day.
 
Yeah no one can complain about KJ's mental toughness and Kubes constantly referred to that. It is one thing to see new coaches correct KJ into a good starter but I will really be bragging if they do same with Roc and Brandon. That would solidify that position. If we draft a corner top 3 rounds that is an "uh, oh" moment for me (unless he will be moved to safety).
 
thunderkyss said:
Well, I do remember they said most NFL ready. I don't know if they said most NFL ready in the draft, or the most NFL ready of the remaining DBs.

I don't know this Robinson guy you speak of, but I do remember many people had Wilson & McCourty rated above Kj.

As far as I know, Wilson is still not a starter on his team. McCourty did have a great rookie season, but the Patriots did move him to safety. One could say that McCourty was the most NFL ready, but if you watch how the defenses played around them, it could be argued that Kj was actually the most NFL ready.
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Holding it against Wilson for being stuck behind Cromartie & Revis is a bit unfair imo. Those 2 are quality cb's to say the least & if Kareem were on the same team w/ those 2 im sure he would be stuck on the bench as well. McCourty has proven to be a decent cb, & now safety from day 1, so if anyone was "NFL ready" it was him imo. Trying to convince otherwise would be a tall order because Kareem was pathetic & pitiful in 2010 while McCourty was a Pro Bowler.

Does it matter how or whom they were defining as "nfl ready"? They were wrong when its all said & done because outside of Haden the Texans had their pick of whomever they wanted. The Jackson pick was a surprise to most to say the least & it was justified by saying he was NFL ready...that was incorrect. No sense in crying over spilt milk, but it does raise questions about Kubiak & Smith's talent evaluations.

Patrick Robinson is a cb from FSU who was drafted by & started for the Saints this last season. Many analysts had him after Wilson & McCourty & some predicted the Texans could choose him. He was projected as 1st round talent by most in 2010.
 
tru80texan said:
I cant recall the ST's ever really being an asset & they have been under Marciano's watch since day 1. In fact, I think it could easily be said that the ST's are regressing. 2010 was an ugly year for the Texans & ST's definitely had their lows that year as well. I think the last 3 years they have sucked to be honest. An assistant ST's coach isn't needed...a new ST's coach all together is imo.
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I absolutely agree that the ST's have regressed. That said, it would be disingenuous to suggest the Texans haven't had good special teams under Marciano, nor other teams that he's worked for.

Would you be open to the idea that personnel that he has to work with plays a part in the ST's performance?

Hey, if a change needs to be made for the sake of change, I'm okay with that. To lay it at the feet of one man is misguided at best because there are so many other moving parts, which many posters are reluctant to admit.
 
tru80texan said:
Holding it against Wilson for being stuck behind Cromartie & Revis is a bit unfair imo. Those 2 are quality cb's to say the least & if Kareem were on the same team w/ those 2 im sure he would be stuck on the bench as well.
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If being on a team with two quality cbs should not be held against Wilson, then being on a team without a quality DB & LBs that struggle in coverage should not be held against Kareem.

We see Kareem now, without the suspect play around him & he appears to be a quality player. We really don't know what Kareem would've looked like with quality players around him as a rookie.

Personally, I find it difficult to say the Smithiak assessment was wrong in light of the Frank Bush defense he was working in.
 
thunderkyss said:
If being on a team with two quality cbs should not be held against Wilson, then being on a team without a quality DB & LBs that struggle in coverage should not be held against Kareem.

We see Kareem now, without the suspect play around him & he appears to be a quality player. We really don't know what Kareem would've looked like with quality players around him as a rookie.

Personally, I find it difficult to say the Smithiak assessment was wrong in light of the Frank Bush defense he was working in.
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How the players around Kareem execute has nothing to do with the flaws that Kareem exhibited. So that really would have little to do with the conversation you guys are having. Other players did not make it difficult for Kareem to turn around and find the ball. Other player did not effect his ability to open his hips better nor his ability to open up to the receiver when running with them.

These are basic cornerback techniques that Kareem did not exhibit as well as he does now. That's development from possibly coaching and just working on technique from field study and practice. It has nothing to do with others around him other than they may have assisted in coaching him up. There is a reason it is stated that corners are on an island.
 
thunderkyss said:
If being on a team with two quality cbs should not be held against Wilson, then being on a team without a quality DB & LBs that struggle in coverage should not be held against Kareem.

We see Kareem now, without the suspect play around him & he appears to be a quality player. We really don't know what Kareem would've looked like with quality players around him as a rookie.

Personally, I find it difficult to say the Smithiak assessment was wrong in light of the Frank Bush defense he was working in.
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While I will concede that surrounding players can effect anothers play at time that was hardly the sole issue w/ Kareem's pathetic rookie season & suggesting that is just foolish. Kareem was burned quite often by his own doing. Either being tossed to the side in press, biting on double moves & getting left behind, or just plain falling down in coverage all contributed to Kareem's failures as a rookie & that's on him. Some could easily argue that Kareem was so pathetic in coverage that the pass rush didn't have enough time to be effective. If you can argue that others were at fault for Kareem's rookie failures w/ a straight face then I question your judgement & vision to be honest.

Frank Bush did produce middle of the road defenses prior to the 2010 collapse, so laying Kareem's failures on him are a bit of reach as well,imo, when you consider Bush did produce an average defense when he had Duanta & another rookie cb starting for him by the name of Glover Quin. Quin did well as rookie under Bush w/ basically the same talent on the defense which proves to me that if Quin could be successful then the NFL ready Kareem could've at least been able to show some potential...which he did not.

Comparing not getting on the field & thus not being allowed to compete(Wilson) vs getting on the field & getting destoryed (Jackson) is hardly an accurate comparison to judge who the better player is imo. I would think that could go w/out saying.
 
Texan_Bill said:
I absolutely agree that the ST's have regressed. That said, it would be disingenuous to suggest the Texans haven't had good special teams under Marciano, nor other teams that he's worked for.

Would you be open to the idea that personnel that he has to work with plays a part in the ST's performance?

Hey, if a change needs to be made for the sake of change, I'm okay with that. To lay it at the feet of one man is misguided at best because there are so many other moving parts, which many posters are reluctant to admit.
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Would you agree that overall the Texans personnel has improved as a whole? If so, wouldn't that lead us to believe that the nonstarters talent level on the team has increased & those are the players being utilized on the ST's so the production should be improving, not regressing? Have we not also seen a pair of our returners leave for other teams this season & have success that seemed hard to come by here? With improved personnel & an obvious improvement in former players play elsewhere that can really only lead to one issue for regressing ST's imo & that's poor coaching.

It's not change for the sake of change when you are one of the worst in the NFL at that aspect of the game. It's change for the sake of improving the team & to strengthen an area of known weakness. There are many moving parts, but assuming that the coaching is always adequate & never at fault seems a bit misguided to me. Coaches have been fired & performances have improved due to it on plenty of occasions. Hardly a new concept.
 
deucetx said:
How the players around Kareem execute has nothing to do with the flaws that Kareem exhibited.
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All rookies are going to display flaws when coming to the NFL. Whether his name is Joe Haden, Patrick Patterson, Kyle Wilson, or Kareem Jackson.

deucetx said:
Other players did not make it difficult for Kareem to turn around and find the ball. Other player did not effect his ability to open his hips better nor his ability to open up to the receiver when running with them.
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First of all, the "didn't turn his head around" is overplayed by guys who don't know what they are looking at. It's called pass interference. If you don't touch the guy, it's not interference no matter where your head is. You won't find a coach that won't teach a DB how to play a receiver face to face.

There is a time to look for the ball & there is a time to play the receiver. There is also a time when the player should play the ball but if that time has passed, he should play the reciever. Rookies find themselves in the latter situation way too often, but as long as they don't touch the receiver, it's all good. The ref may call it, but in the film room the coach is going to say, "You should have turned there, but you didn't. You recovered fine, don't worry about the ref."

Then as far as turning his hips..... you either got it or you don't. You're not going to take a guy who doesn't have it & teach it to him in three years. Learning how fast an NFL receiver will get on top of you, learning how fast an NFL receiver will blow right past you, learning how strong an NFL receiver is, learning how fast and strong an NFL receivers hands are, even the most NFL ready corner is going to have a learning curve here, regardless what his name is.

deucetx said:
These are basic cornerback techniques that Kareem did not exhibit as well as he does now. That's development from possibly coaching and just working on technique from field study and practice.
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Do you not think Joe Haden, Kyle Wilson, and Patrick Peterson are better at those basic cornerback techniques now than they were when they were rookies? Do you think Glover Quin & Devin McCourty might not have that ability & maybe that's why they're playing safety now & not corner?

deucetx said:
It has nothing to do with others around him other than they may have assisted in coaching him up. There is a reason it is stated that corners are on an island.
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If I've got Derrell Revis on one side of the field, then I've got help on my side of the field, I'm not on an Island as much as Kareem was. I'm able to face the QB longer & jump routes, and gamble. My mistakes won't look so bad, because someone is going to stop Roy Williams from running 70 yards to the endzone.

If you watched Kareem play as a rookie, you could see he had speed, he had cover skills, he was physical at the line, & he was a sure tackler. He made some rookie mistakes, he got beat by some veteran receivers (& some not so veteran receivers). But if you only focused on the bad plays & did not pay attention to the good plays (& there were a lot more good plays), then yeah I can understand thinking he was the worst CB in the league.

But to believe he went from the worst CB in the league to one of the best in 3 seasons... yeah, that was all coaching. I understand if you don't think he's one of the best, but he is.

:kitten:
 
thunderkyss said:
If you watched Kareem play as a rookie, you could see he had speed, he had cover skills, he was physical at the line, & he was a sure tackler. He made some rookie mistakes, he got beat by some veteran receivers (& some not so veteran receivers). But if you only focused on the bad plays & did not pay attention to the good plays (& there were a lot more good plays), then yeah I can understand thinking he was the worst CB in the league.

:kitten:
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KJ has developed into a fine CB. But during his rookie year, he was NOT a sure tackler. His tackling then was deplorable.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
KJ has developed into a fine CB. But during his rookie year, he was NOT a sure tackler. His tackling then was deplorable.
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I remember reading that in the BRB you posted recently, I just don't remember that. When I read it, I had to double take, because it was opposite of what I remembered.
 
tru80texan said:
Would you agree that overall the Texans personnel has improved as a whole? .
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YES........... and NO!!

While the overall starting talent has improved, much of the depth has decipated.

Shyte happens with good teams. Other teams "cherry pick" certain players.

Nature of the beast, "if you will"..
 
thunderkyss said:
All rookies are going to display flaws when coming to the NFL. Whether his name is Joe Haden, Patrick Patterson, Kyle Wilson, or Kareem Jackson.


First of all, the "didn't turn his head around" is overplayed by guys who don't know what they are looking at. It's called pass interference. If you don't touch the guy, it's not interference no matter where your head is. You won't find a coach that won't teach a DB how to play a receiver face to face.

There is a time to look for the ball & there is a time to play the receiver. There is also a time when the player should play the ball but if that time has passed, he should play the reciever. Rookies find themselves in the latter situation way too often, but as long as they don't touch the receiver, it's all good. The ref may call it, but in the film room the coach is going to say, "You should have turned there, but you didn't. You recovered fine, don't worry about the ref."

Then as far as turning his hips..... you either got it or you don't. You're not going to take a guy who doesn't have it & teach it to him in three years. Learning how fast an NFL receiver will get on top of you, learning how fast an NFL receiver will blow right past you, learning how strong an NFL receiver is, learning how fast and strong an NFL receivers hands are, even the most NFL ready corner is going to have a learning curve here, regardless what his name is.



Do you not think Joe Haden, Kyle Wilson, and Patrick Peterson are better at those basic cornerback techniques now than they were when they were rookies? Do you think Glover Quin & Devin McCourty might not have that ability & maybe that's why they're playing safety now & not corner?



If I've got Derrell Revis on one side of the field, then I've got help on my side of the field, I'm not on an Island as much as Kareem was. I'm able to face the QB longer & jump routes, and gamble. My mistakes won't look so bad, because someone is going to stop Roy Williams from running 70 yards to the endzone.

If you watched Kareem play as a rookie, you could see he had speed, he had cover skills, he was physical at the line, & he was a sure tackler. He made some rookie mistakes, he got beat by some veteran receivers (& some not so veteran receivers). But if you only focused on the bad plays & did not pay attention to the good plays (& there were a lot more good plays), then yeah I can understand thinking he was the worst CB in the league.

But to believe he went from the worst CB in the league to one of the best in 3 seasons... yeah, that was all coaching. I understand if you don't think he's one of the best, but he is.

:kitten:
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One of the best...wow. Your judgement is a bit skewed w/out a doubt. You don't dub a player "one of the best" based on one season. Plain & simple.

Kareem was horrid in every aspect as a rookie. Manhandled in press coverage(which is ironic that you mentioned Roy Williams because he literally tossed KJ to the side as he caught & ran for a TD), very poor awareness & recognition(biting on double moves & not looking for the ball), poor technique & foot work(often slipping to the ground), poor tackling, & the aspect that can't be taken away was his speed but it was often deemed a nonfactor as his other flaws often left him in positions where he could not recover w/ his speed. There were slim to no bright spots & maybe you should reference back to those games because it seems your memory is failing you in the worse way. I understand being a fan of a player, but to divert blame & disregard a players former faults that have already been acknowledged by many seems just foolish to me. KJ never displayed the potential that Revis, Peterson, or Haden did as rookies & comparing him to such players once again shows an act of foolishness imo. Peterson & Haden played on bad teams, & still do, so please don't try the excuse about surrounding talent because it simply does not hold water.

KJ' s 2nd season showed a small improvement, but he was still amongst the worst at the position. With that being said he did show noticeable improvement in year 3 but hardly enough to deem him 1 of the best. He was not an All Pro nor was he a Pro Bowler. He simply got better w/ still more room to improve. Let's hope it continues, but let's please not be foolish enough to believe we can simply deny, erase, or rewrite his history because you don't like it. That's not how it works & he seems to have finally learned from his past failures.
 
Texan_Bill said:
YES........... and NO!!

While the overall starting talent has improved, much of the depth has decipated.

Shyte happens with good teams. Other teams "cherry pick" certain players.

Nature of the beast, "if you will"..
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C'mon on now? You actually believe the quality of depth has not improved? I beg to differ. The talent across the board has gotten better compared to let's say 2010 when the ST's were an issue then as well. Braman, Dobbins, Harris, Carmichael, Crick, Ball, & even Keo are better ST & position players then those players that littered the 2010 team & yet we have the same pitiful results on ST's. If you refuse to acknowledge that then its best we agree to disagree because I'm not a member of the Marciano fan club & it seems you may be.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Found this Nov. 2010 piece pretty interesting in the context of "NFL ready" and this discussion.

link
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This whole article seems to point to one thing, sometimes we the fan, who like to think we know it all, really don't, and some of the time, the NFL personnel don't get it right either, but maybe they are more right than we are.

In this article there are 3 Texans players taken in the 1st round (07, 08, and 10). One of those players, basically trashed by them, is now a Pro Bowl LT and considered to be one of the best in the NFL (Brown). Another, after 3 years, has developed in to a solid CB while being criticized and ridiculed almost every step of the way (Jackson). The 3rd player (Okoye) showed signs early in his rookie year but never lived up to the hype and was basically let go after his 3rd yr (I think.) with the team. I guess my question to BRB is, will they do a real piece about looking back now and admit they were a bit shortsighted with Brown and Jackson? Probably not.

I know sometimes, we the fan, get impatient and expect players (especially 1st rounders) to step on the field and perform up to All Pro levels. In reality, that is rare and usually depends on the position of the player. I see this impatient attitude today, for example, with people saying Newton is no good and we need to get another RT. Give him some time. He's only been in the system 2 years and started 1 year. My guess is he will make a big improvement this season, and if not, Harris, or another draft pick, will be there to take his place. But, we have to give him a chance. Just like they did with Brown and Jackson, and yes, even Okoye. JMO!
 
thunderkyss said:
All rookies are going to display flaws when coming to the NFL. Whether his name is Joe Haden, Patrick Patterson, Kyle Wilson, or Kareem Jackson.
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Well...that is sort of a no kidding comment. Had little to do with your point though. Your point was players around him affecting his ability and at corner and for the issues he had that was not true and tru80's point was KJ was not as NFL ready as the Texans touted. Oh and you are rather very wrong about Haden. He was a top corner from start and is a top definition of NFL ready.


thunderkyss said:
First of all, the "didn't turn his head around" is overplayed by guys who don't know what they are looking at. It's called pass interference. If you don't touch the guy, it's not interference no matter where your head is. You won't find a coach that won't teach a DB how to play a receiver face to face.
Click to expand...

Overplayed? Umm...no, it is not. It is part of the position. Saying something is overplayed when it is a basic part of developing at the position is quite the stretch and making excuses. It is an essential part of playing the position. You are taught this from peewee (if the coach knows anything) how to run with the receiver and when to look for the ball and the timing which were things KJ lacked that once again...had nothing to do with the personnel around him like you were trying to state.

thunderkyss said:
There is a time to look for the ball & there is a time to play the receiver. There is also a time when the player should play the ball but if that time has passed, he should play the reciever. Rookies find themselves in the latter situation way too often, but as long as they don't touch the receiver, it's all good. The ref may call it, but in the film room the coach is going to say, "You should have turned there, but you didn't. You recovered fine, don't worry about the ref."
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Would love to meet a coach that will just brush it off like that since I have yet to talk to one that does and my secondary coaches sure didn't. We are talking passes into the deep third which means long gains. A coach that brushes it off like that is not developing the player. It is not 'all good' if you do not turn around to find the ball time and time again which was the case. Of course there is a time to play the ball. It is what you are coached and taught from the start.

thunderkyss said:
Then as far as turning his hips..... you either got it or you don't. You're not going to take a guy who doesn't have it & teach it to him in three years. Learning how fast an NFL receiver will get on top of you, learning how fast an NFL receiver will blow right past you, learning how strong an NFL receiver is, learning how fast and strong an NFL receivers hands are, even the most NFL ready corner is going to have a learning curve here, regardless what his name is.
Click to expand...

Yes, you can teach and work on a corner's fluid movements and how to better open themselves up even at that level. Why do you think they have secondary coaches? It isn't just to teach them coverages. It is to help them develop and this is a part that they are still taught in the NFL and worked on. Just like how QB's are still taught proper footwork though they should have learned it long ago. It's part of the process.

thunderkyss said:
Do you not think Joe Haden, Kyle Wilson, and Patrick Peterson are better at those basic cornerback techniques now than they were when they were rookies? Do you think Glover Quin & Devin McCourty might not have that ability & maybe that's why they're playing safety now & not corner?
Click to expand...

Of course they are. That wasn't the point of the convo. The point was how NFL ready was he when drafted. And you keep tossing names out there and aren't even close on the production some of them had their rookie year:

Joe Haden: 50.1 QB Rating; 53.2 catch percentage
Kyle Wilson (limited snaps as a nickle): 77.9 QB rating; 50 catch percentage
Patrick Peterson: 85 QB Rating; 59.3 catch percentage
Kareem Jackson: 111.8 QB Rating; 66.3 catch percentage

For comparison sake:

Devin McCourty (as a corner): 57 QB Rating; 55.6 catch percentage

Since 2010 no 1st round CB has had a higher QB rating than Kareem's rookie season and only Morris Claiborne who royally sucked this season for the boys (thankfully) had a higher catch percentage by by 3.3 (69.6)

thunderkyss said:
If I've got Derrell Revis on one side of the field, then I've got help on my side of the field, I'm not on an Island as much as Kareem was. I'm able to face the QB longer & jump routes, and gamble. My mistakes won't look so bad, because someone is going to stop Roy Williams from running 70 yards to the endzone.
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A corner is always on an island unless the defense rolls a safety your way to help you. If they do that, that means you have issues in your coverage and a handicap. As it is using Revis as a comparison is a stretch since he is the best lockdown corner since Deion Sanders and are rare finds as is. Kareem had basic defensive responsibilities no different than he has now with improved talent around him. Nothing has changed.

thunderkyss said:
If you watched Kareem play as a rookie, you could see he had speed, he had cover skills, he was physical at the line, & he was a sure tackler. He made some rookie mistakes, he got beat by some veteran receivers (& some not so veteran receivers). But if you only focused on the bad plays & did not pay attention to the good plays (& there were a lot more good plays), then yeah I can understand thinking he was the worst CB in the league.
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Again, that has little to do with the convo you are having. You are having a specific convo about Kareems NFL readiness when drafted. And the stats I just showed you illustrate there weren't a lot more good plays as you are stating.

thunderkyss said:
But to believe he went from the worst CB in the league to one of the best in 3 seasons... yeah, that was all coaching. I understand if you don't think he's one of the best, but he is.
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Again...not the convo you were having. And yes, he was graded as one of the worse his rookie year. If I take the PFF grade he was 96th out of 100. He was also 10th in highest QB rating. He also was 5th in YAC allowed (highest of course) and 5th in yard per completion (16.2).

And since players do get development and improve then yes most likely coaching and experience helped him get better. Did he have tools to work with? Of course. But that doesn't mean he was NFL ready. There is a reason his coach said he was not ready for the jump and needed another year of learning and developing. Kareem came out anyway and we essentially made ourselves that key product for his development instead of him taking that year in college.

Apologies for long post but making excuses for poor play is just silly to me. He had a freaking horrible rookie season. There's nothing wrong with admitting that and that he wasn't as NFL ready as the Texans touted to sell him to fans. What is important is he did develop and improve each year. Nothing wrong with going back and saying he played like **** when he did play like it. Don't know why it is difficult for fans to admit it.
 
deucetx said:
Apologies for long post but making excuses for poor play is just silly to me. He had a freaking horrible rookie season. There's nothing wrong with admitting that and that he wasn't as NFL ready as the Texans touted to sell him to fans. What is important is he did develop and improve each year. Nothing wrong with going back and saying he played like **** when he did play like it. Don't know why it is difficult for fans to admit it.
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We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You can put me on a top 10 passing defense & I'm going to look so good. You put me on the 30th rank defense, I'm going to look worse. My stats are going to look worse.

I just don't believe you can judge a players "NFL Readiness" on one of the worst defenses in the league. You can't judge a DBs "NFL Readiness" on the worst pass defense in the league. Sure, that rookie most likely played into that ranking. That's would explain why Arizona was 10th & not 4th (not saying that Arizona was 10th, it's just an example), that would explain why Cleveland is 6th instead of 5th (again, just an example). Kareem making us 32nd when we "should have been 31 doesn't mean he wasn't NFL ready.

Brian Cushing on that same defense did not look anywhere near the elite, 2 time DROY, LB that he is.

But for Kareem to play at the level he is now, just 3 years later leeds me to believe he was closer to that NFL Ready than not.
 
thunderkyss said:
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You can put me on a top 10 passing defense & I'm going to look so good. You put me on the 30th rank defense, I'm going to look worse. My stats are going to look worse.

I just don't believe you can judge a players "NFL Readiness" on one of the worst defenses in the league. You can't judge a DBs "NFL Readiness" on the worst pass defense in the league. Sure, that rookie most likely played into that ranking. That's would explain why Arizona was 10th & not 4th (not saying that Arizona was 10th, it's just an example), that would explain why Cleveland is 6th instead of 5th (again, just an example). Kareem making us 32nd when we "should have been 31 doesn't mean he wasn't NFL ready.

Brian Cushing on that same defense did not look anywhere near the elite, 2 time DROY, LB that he is.

But for Kareem to play at the level he is now, just 3 years later leeds me to believe he was closer to that NFL Ready than not.
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Yep will agree to disagree because if it was this simple Brice McCain would have looked good this year with the talent around him. He was one of the worse corners. Our OLB's would have been amongst the best pass rushers with Watt having such a great push and season that demanded double teams....they were some of the worse.

Plus when our defense was actually better last season Jackson would have had an amazing season...he had a below average one (110.9 rating; 60.4 catch%) having to share it Jason Allen while having a much better one this season with a weaker defense (16th against the pass). Last year the defensive was 3rd against the pass. And I would hardly say Allen or Kareem looked great in 2011 despite Joseph looking like a top 3 corner.

Kind of shows the opposite of what you're saying but whatever floats your boat, heh.

...and the how heck does someone become 2 time Defensive rookie of the year? That would be one hell of a feat for my man Cush! Will chalk it up to a typo, lol.
 
thunderkyss said:
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You can put me on a top 10 passing defense & I'm going to look so good. You put me on the 30th rank defense, I'm going to look worse. My stats are going to look worse.

I just don't believe you can judge a players "NFL Readiness" on one of the worst defenses in the league. You can't judge a DBs "NFL Readiness" on the worst pass defense in the league. Sure, that rookie most likely played into that ranking. That's would explain why Arizona was 10th & not 4th (not saying that Arizona was 10th, it's just an example), that would explain why Cleveland is 6th instead of 5th (again, just an example). Kareem making us 32nd when we "should have been 31 doesn't mean he wasn't NFL ready.

Brian Cushing on that same defense did not look anywhere near the elite, 2 time DROY, LB that he is.

But for Kareem to play at the level he is now, just 3 years later leeds me to believe he was closer to that NFL Ready than not.
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He was part of the reason that defense looked so bad, mainly the secondary.


The DB's were about the same minus dunta and while they weren't great, they got a lot worse when Kareem came along.

Go listen to his position coach. He was on the radio a little while back talking about how awful his technique was and how bad he was at playing the ball. Vance Joseph himself talked about how bad kj was in his rookie year. He talked about why he didn't make plays on the ball and he said it was because his technique was bad and he was rarely in position to make the plays.

But he said that Kareem has improved leaps and bounds and he talked about how he's become more of a technician and how he is now in better position and can now play the ball more effectively.

You can believe what you want to believe, but Kareem was bad his rookie year all by himself, regardless of what anyone else was doing. He's gotten much, much better.

Oh and btw, on of those "terrible players" just won a ring as a starter and has been a pretty good player every year except that one. Another one of those players is still starting for us, albeit in a different position.
 
Rey said:
Cush wad voted droy had the award taken away, and voted droy again.
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Heh that's the same year but I guess if he was being technical that could qualify...in a strange way. Oh and very much agree with your above post
 
deucetx said:
Plus when our defense was actually better last season Jackson would have had an amazing season...he had a below average one (110.9 rating; 60.4 catch%) having to share it Jason Allen while having a much better one this season with a weaker defense (16th against the pass). Last year the defensive was 3rd against the pass. And I would hardly say Allen or Kareem looked great in 2011 despite Joseph looking like a top 3 corner.

Kind of shows the opposite of what you're saying but whatever floats your boat, heh.
Click to expand...

Good points, but when they change the coaching staff, that changes the whole "NFL Ready" definition.

deucetx said:
...and the how heck does someone become 2 time Defensive rookie of the year? That would be one hell of a feat for my man Cush! Will chalk it up to a typo, lol.
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Not a typo. Cushing won it, then they took it away because of the PED thing, then they gave it back to him.
 
Rey said:
Oh and btw, on of those "terrible players" just won a ring as a starter and has been a pretty good player every year except that one. Another one of those players is still starting for us, albeit in a different position.
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BTW, never said they were terrible players, just posed the question that maybe they couldn't develop the skills needed to play corner at a high level. Not saying they couldn't, just posing the question.

Or maybe I'm not sure which "terrible players" we're talking about.
 
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