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David Done In Houston? | Profootballtalk.com

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Vinny

shiny happy fan
Disclaimer: rumor site
DAVID DONE IN HOUSTON?

Despite indications that the Texans plan to keep quarterback David Carr via an $8 million option bonus, we're hearing that the team is taking a careful look at the pool of available quarterbacks for 2006 -- and that the Texans currently are leaning against keeping Carr.

Though many assume that Carr's struggle are the result of poor pass protection, the main knock on Carr is that he simply cannot pick up the secondary receiver when his primary guy isn't open.

Currently, Houston has a one-game "lead" over a cluster of 2-7 teams for the No. 1 overall pick in the draft. If the Texans remain among this team of turds come late December, look for owner Bob McNair to keep his $8 million in his pockets -- and to permit Carr to hit the road.

The other option, of course, is the negotiation of a new deal with Carr that would allow him to stay at a more appropriate cap number and pay package. In this regard, the Texans have more than a little leverage, since no one that we know of is crossing their fingers and toes in the hopes that Carr will become a free agent. But even if Carr stays, our guess is that he gets some real competition for the starting job in the offseason.
http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm
 

wags

Veteran
If the Texans remain among this team of turds come late December,
Normally I don't put much stock into sites that use the phrase "team of turds." But hey, I am a crazy guy.

Yes, I did read the disclaimer.
 

texan279

Hall of Fame
RTP2110 said:
That 8 mil would go a long way in fixing some of the other holes this team has to fill.
Yep. IMO it was a big mistake to pay all the money to Carr without building any kind of O line. I would rather have a decent QB and a decent O line instead of a crappy O line and an OK QB.
 

bckey

All Pro
I don't think Carr is going anywhere. I actually believe that the Texans will exercise the 3 year option over the 2 year one. I'm more worried that the Texans will win enough games to keep Capers and company around another year. I'm so tired of hearing what a good man Capers is. What the heck does that have to do with being a good head coach?
 
S

SESupergenius

Guest
Though many assume that Carr's struggle are the result of poor pass protection, the main knock on Carr is that he simply cannot pick up the secondary receiver when his primary guy isn't open.
I think this persond was scouring the message board and came across a post from one of our fans saying he thought this way about Carr, but didn't bother to keep up with the rebutals or didn't see the game where Carr layed it right in Brad fords hands for a potentially game tieing score.....as the 2nd reciever.
 

RTP2110

All Pro
SESupergenius said:
I think this persond was scouring the message board and came across a post from one of our fans saying he thought this way about Carr, but didn't bother to keep up with the rebutals or didn't see the game where Carr layed it right in Brad fords hands for a potentially game tieing score.....as the 2nd reciever.
Also, didn't Carr say on the radio that the coaches tell him to check the 1st reciever, and if he isn't open to immidiately check down to the dump off option?
 

texan279

Hall of Fame
SESupergenius said:
I think this persond was scouring the message board and came across a post from one of our fans saying he thought this way about Carr, but didn't bother to keep up with the rebutals or didn't see the game where Carr layed it right in Brad fords hands for a potentially game tieing score.....as the 2nd reciever.
And on the same play Carr didn't throw to a wide open AJ underneath on the slant...
 

Double Barrel

Texans Talk Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
wags said:
Normally I don't put much stock into sites that use the phrase "team of turds." But hey, I am a crazy guy.

Yes, I did read the disclaimer.
:rofl: yeah, that thought crossed my mind to when seeing that particular phrase. It doesn't inspire the greatest of confidence in their "professional" analysis, 'eh? Even for a rumor sight.

Interesting read, though, and glad Vinny posted it. I find it interesting to see how the outside world views the situation, and there are some valid points. If the perception at the front office is that Carr is as good as he's going to get (by that I mean growing out of certain tendencies or not), then overpaying him might not be the greatest idea at this time. Especially considering how many other urgent needs this team has at various positions.
 

Blake

MMQB
I cant see this happening. Its more than money. Its more than the record.

David has been the face of this franchise for years. He wont be thrown out like trash. I know the NFL has no loyalties, but sometimes you have to stick with your guy. Build up around him, and then see what the problem is.

This isnt a Kyle Boller, who has a top notch Defense, with an established line, and pro bowl left tackle, and one of the best RB's in the game.

This is David Carr, with a 4 year old franchise, a struggling D, a musical chairs o line, and a good stable of backs.

Also, I have to mention the coaches. Brian Billick, is far more sucessful overall than our own Dom Capers.

Add all of this together, and you can see why we are 1-8.

Pay Carr his money, and get him a LT, G, and a better defense. And to top that off, a new head coach. You know, the kind that like to win. Take chances, and draw up better plays.
 

texan279

Hall of Fame
You can't pay the guy millions just because he is "the face of the franchise". If our front office makes moves like that, we will be in cap hell pretty quick.
 

wags

Veteran
texan279 said:
If our front office makes moves like that, we will be in cap hell pretty quick.
If our front office keeps paying crappy Dolphin players 25 million then we will be in cap hell pretty quick.
 

Blake

MMQB
texan279 said:
You can't pay the guy millions just because he is "the face of the franchise". If our front office makes moves like that, we will be in cap hell pretty quick.
I didnt say give him money because he is the face of the franchise. My point was that you need to stick with your guy, and see if he is really the problem.

So you would rather dump Carr, and pick up another #1 overall QB? Either way you are going to pay big bucks.

How much better do you think he will do with the Texans right now?
 

Coach C.

Veteran
Why did this guy not even discuss the 5.5 option. I would be very suprise if they excersise the 8million option also. The 5.5 option for two years is a good option and we should execute it. I would assume that the Texans need to spread this rumor much more though. I would hate for teams to think that they can just move to two or three in the draft and still get the top guy. I seriously doubt we will get another QB. Look for McNair to ask Kubiak hey can you win with DC and Kubiak will say hey I won with Jake Plummer, I can kill with DC. Kubiak takes over and then the Texans go 8-8 his first season and make the playoffs next year in and resign Carr to a long term contract. The Texans board celebrates McNair finally bringing in the right guy and Vinny , Infantry, and I will still say that we need better execution.
 
S

SESupergenius

Guest
texan279 said:
And on the same play Carr didn't throw to a wide open AJ underneath on the slant...
And on that same play Carr looked at AJ initially and he was covered by 2 guys thinking they were going to double his primary option, Carr doesn't have the luxury of "waiting" for a play develop, this has been the argument of all the Carr haters is that he holds on to the ball to long.
 

Frills

Waterboy
If he had the option to audible to something other than a run, he would be better. If he didn't get hit 40 million times per year he'd have more patience and look to the 2nd WR other than dumping it to the RB. If he had a TE that could be a threat in the middle he'd have more options. If he had a defense that could stop folks, he wouldn't be the whole second half down by 21. If he had a RB that could block someone (he has in the past 2 weeks, but the no blocking back should return)

when a player gets hammered as much as he has, they start to expect the hit, and worry more about when its comming (subconciously) and the rest of their game falters. The coaching staff and Casserly have directly caused it.

I like David, and while I want him here, it might be in his best interest to get a fresh start somewhere else.
 

texan279

Hall of Fame
THE NFL DRAFT said:
I didnt say give him money because he is the face of the franchise. My point was that you need to stick with your guy, and see if he is really the problem.

So you would rather dump Carr, and pick up another #1 overall QB? Either way you are going to pay big bucks.

How much better do you think he will do with the Texans right now?
No I am not saying that, I really don't know what I would do at this point. If Carr really wants to stay and suceed, maybe he should take a pay cut to free up some money to put into the O line, through draft or free agency. I just don't think he should be the highest paid player on this team right now. Honestly, no one probably deserves to make what he makes on this team right now.
 

infantrycak

Hall of Fame
RTP2110 said:
That 8 mil would go a long way in fixing some of the other holes this team has to fill.
Not as far as it sounds. That $8 mil if exercised will go on the cap over 4 years, so $2 mil per year. As evidenced by Wade, Coleman and Greenwood's contracts, you don't get serious FA's for $2 mil per year--the cheapest of them has a $3.5 mil per year contract.

Now his base salary would free up a bigger chunk of cap in each of those years, but then again you are out looking for a new QB as well so that is most likely a wash.
 

Lucky

Ride, Captain, Ride!
Staff member
In this regard, the Texans have more than a little leverage, since no one that we know of is crossing their fingers and toes in the hopes that Carr will become a free agent.
This is where the guy really gets the story wrong. There are still plenty of people in the league that think Carr has potential. Mike Martz would love to work with David (though where will Martz be working next season?). Both Denny Green and Al Davis would likely bring Carr in. But, I'm thinking Jerry Jones would be the one to scoop Carr up. If Carr is thinking of leaving, it wouldn't surprise me if his agent didn't leak this story.
 

Coach C.

Veteran
How did they even start talking about this. Vinny what is your take on the options on Carr. I am in favor of locking him down for two years. Now I am not gonna defend his bad play or try to overhype his good play. But he is a average qb with good talent. I mean we know how well QBs can change if they get into a system that suites them.
 

Coach C.

Veteran
Carr in Oakland would be nice to see. I have been a fan of Oakland for a while but with those receivers strong armed Carr could really gunsling. If we do not pick him up. It is pretty clear he will land with another team and likely be a starter.
 

Frills

Waterboy
texan279 said:
No I am not saying that, I really don't know what I would do at this point. If Carr really wants to stay and suceed, maybe he should take a pay cut to free up some money to put into the O line, through draft or free agency. I just don't think he should be the highest paid player on this team right now. Honestly, no one probably deserves to make what he makes on this team right now.

We've seen what this front office can do with the O-line. Last year our O-line took up over $11 million of cap space. As of now we have 7.8 mil in cap space (http://www.theredzone.org/caproom.asp)

So for those worrying about Carr's cap hit, should be looking elsewhere. Picking up the option at the end of the season, we can prorate the 8 mil over this year and the next 3 years.
 

aj.

All Pro
Carr has enough skills to be a good NFL QB. He's not in a good situation here so either you change that or you say good bye to #8. I'd like to see him stay here with the 2 year extension, a new system, a real qb coach, and a competitive situation. There would be plenty of teams lining up to offer Carr a FA contract. Maybe not as a starter right away, but again, in a competitive type situation.
 

Frills

Waterboy
Green Bay, Oakland, and Baltimore, would pick him up in a heartbeat. Just to name a few off the top of my head.
 

Vinny

shiny happy fan
Frills said:
So for those worrying about Carr's cap hit, should be looking elsewhere. Picking up the option at the end of the season, we can prorate the 8 mil over this year and the next 3 years.
According to Keith, his projected Cap hit is much larger....at $7,256,160. He has base salaries of 5.25 and 6 million in addition to his bonus. This year his cap hit is nearly twice as large as the second highest paid Texan.

keith at houstonprofootball.com said:
* David Carr is in the option year of his rookie contract. If the option is exercised, Carr's contract extends through 2008 and he is due a pro-rateable $8,000,000 bonus. Base salaries for the next three years would be $5.25 million in 2006 and 2007 and $6 million in 2008.
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap2006.html
 

Blake

MMQB
Would Carr consider a cheaper contract? I mean its not like he had a stellar year. And it would help out his team.
 

aj.

All Pro
I think Frills point was that they can prorate the $8 mil s/b over four years (including this year) if they exercise the three year option (true statement). That's why the Texans held $2 mill in cap reserve this year - just to accomodate this year's portion of the proration. Carr's total cap hit is in the $7 mil - $8 mil per year range on the 3 year extension and slightly less on the 2 yr extension.
 

College Texan

Waterboy
The only positive of Carr leaving would be to finally see the kid succeed somewhere. We could keep him, draft Leinart and pull an Eli on another team.
I think he needs the right coach and the right playbook to turn things around.
We should be fortunate to have a class guy like Carr, no one else would stand for what he has been through.
 

Kaiser Toro

Native Mod
Not surprised by the rumor as we all have been discussing these scenarios for some time.

Of course there will be interest from other teams it just remains to be seen who does and at what price tag. The fact that this rumor popped up outisde of this board will get the wheels turning for other teams and then the Texans can start to have frank discussions on how or if we should resign him.

I do not believe any sane owner will pay DC top tier money like we would have to by picking up the option. Does anyone know the feasibility/cap hit of waiving DC and then resigning him?
 

texasguy346

Mod Squad
THE NFL DRAFT said:
Would Carr consider a cheaper contract? I mean its not like he had a stellar year. And it would help out his team.
I don't know about that. Think about it from Carr's perspective for a minute. If he signs a cheaper contract to help the team out what does he get in return? Of course we all hope a new coaching staff brings in some talent to help protect Carr, but Carr's heard his entire career from Capers & Casserley that they were going to keep him protected by fixing the OLine. All those promises of protection were broken. Why should he trust a new staff to do what the old staff never could do? He also is smart enough to know that if he's a free agent he could still sign a cheap deal with a team like Baltimore or Oakland perhaps and could be confident that he'd get protection. Sure he might have to compete for a starting spot, but there's no gurantee he won't have to do that next season here in Houston.
 
Keep Carr, Fire Capers, Fire Casserly, Bring in GM and HC committed to bringing in guys via FA and Draft for both sides of the line and you will have a much better team. It all starts on the lines
 

aj.

All Pro
Kaiser Toro said:
Does anyone know the feasibility/cap hit of waiving DC and then resigning him?
Totally feasible. No cap hit. And no guarantee that you will be able to re-sign him because he will be a UFA and he will go to the highest bidder and the best situation - which most likely won't be here. I doubt if he would want to come back here if they released him.
 

Frills

Waterboy
I agree, you're looking at a 7-8 mil cap hit for each year. We're 4 under now, and the cap and projected 10 under next year.

Lets look at the other cap estimates for next year

Greenwood: 3,996,160
Coleman: 3,041,160
Hollings: 699,410
Rivers: 646,160
Bruener: 904,493
Joppru: 874,910

Riley: 1,006,160

Total: 11,168,493

Over 1.4 mil for TE's and we still have no threat from the position.

We have a ton more wasted cap money than the couple of mil David's option would consume.
 
It's a shame what has happened with Joppru. That is one where I can't blame Casserly. No one could have known he would have all these injuries. It's one of those 'What could have been' situations.
 

Kaiser Toro

Native Mod
aj. said:
Totally feasible. No cap hit. And no guarantee that you will be able to re-sign him because he will be a UFA and he will go to the highest bidder and the best situation - which most likely won't be here. I doubt if he would want to come back here if they released him.
Thanks for the follow up. I do feel that McNair will have a great value proposition for DC to be released - new coach, GM, taking lineman early in the draft and a lower base higher incentive laden contract.

I just do nto see DC getting anywhere close to what he is making now and he will undoubtedly be in a competitive situation. We also can not forget the value DC has here by being the face of the Texans in a large market. He will certainly lose any endorsements that mirror his current status if he goes elsehwere.
 

aj.

All Pro
Right now, his real value is probably somewhere around Kelly Holcomb money: Four-years, $6.6 million, including a $2 million signing bonus.
 

texan279

Hall of Fame
Frills said:
We've seen what this front office can do with the O-line. Last year our O-line took up over $11 million of cap space. As of now we have 7.8 mil in cap space (http://www.theredzone.org/caproom.asp)

So for those worrying about Carr's cap hit, should be looking elsewhere. Picking up the option at the end of the season, we can prorate the 8 mil over this year and the next 3 years.
It doesn't really matter how you break down or prorate his salary, the question is, is he worth the money?
 

Fiddy

All Pro
rmartin65 said:
Carr has to stay. Who else would play QB?
You either go a year with no real QB and wait for Vince Young or you give Vince a call telling him that he will play for his hometown next year if he comes out!!! :D

Ragone may be given a chance. Maybe a trade for Rivers (doubt that though). There are a few choices.
 
rmartin65 said:
Carr has to stay. Who else would play QB?
IF Carr were to leave (and I am not a fan of that) I think the Texans go out and get a solid FA QB who can be here for awhile. Honestly I have no idea what FA QB's will be available. I am not for getting a rookie QB and him starting immediately because I do believe with a few changes this can be a good team and get this thing turned around.
 

rmartin65

Phil Kessel: Nice Guy. Tries Hard.
Fiddy said:
You either go a year with no real QB and wait for Vince Young or you give Vince a call telling him that he will play for his hometown next year!!! :D
Vince might not come out this year. Carr should stay and be given a shot with a REAL coaching staff and a REAL oline.
 

infantrycak

Hall of Fame
Kaiser Toro said:
I just do nto see DC getting anywhere close to what he is making now and he will undoubtedly be in a competitive situation. We also can not forget the value DC has here by being the face of the Texans in a large market. He will certainly lose any endorsements that mirror his current status if he goes elsehwere.
I would certainly guess Carr's FA value would be less than his current contract, but maybe not as much less as you think. Jake Plummer had six underwhelming years in Arizona and had never broken over an 80 passer rating. His TD to INT ratio was worse than Carr's as well. He signed a 7 year $40.7 mil contract with Denver--that averages $5.8 mil per year. Not saying Carr would get that, but it happens and all it takes is one team to pull the trigger.

Folks should keep than in mind from the Texans standpoint as well--the cost of the replacement. Alex Smith's contract averages $8.3 mil per year--with the almost standard 10% increase the #1 pick this year is likely to get about $9.1 mil on average. Carr isn't playing to his contract, but the Texans can't just excise the problem without considering a solution as well.
 

Frills

Waterboy
For those who think we can draft Vince or Leinart, forget it.

SF, AZ, NO, Jets, Tenn, Bal, and Possibly MINN/GB/OAK will be drafting ahead of us.

1st 9 games, 5 were against teams 7-2 or better...Last 7 games 4 2-7 teams and 2 games with teams over .500
 
S

SESupergenius

Guest
Yea it would be blasphemy for us to draft Young only to have him get hurt or pounded behind this line, then have Ragone step in anyways.
 
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