David Carr is Tim Couch... but not as good.

Let's look at the stats when comparing these two QB's put into identical situations. The biggest difference is that Couch led his team to more wins and a playoff appearance.

Based on history, David Carr will not be in the NFL in 2008.

Couch (15 Games)
Year 1 - 2447 Yards, 56% Completions, 15 TD's, 13 INT's
Carr (16 Games)
Year 1 - 2592 Yards, 52% Completions, 9 TD's, 9 INT's

Couch (7 Games)
Year 2 - 1483 Yards, 64% Completions, 7 TD's, 9 INT's
Carr (12 Games)
Year 2 - 2013 Yards, 57% Completions, 9 TD's, 13 INT's

Couch (16 Games)
Year 3 - 3040 Yards, 60% Completions, 17 TD's, 21 INT's
Carr (16 Games)
Year 3 - 3531 Yards, 61% Completions, 16 TD's, 15 INT's

And Carr is well behind Couch's pace for TD's and yards in his 4th year.

You can do the same thing for Carr's 1st three years and Aikman's. Carr is no more Couch than he is Aikman.

infantrycak said:

You can do the same thing for Carr's 1st three years and Aikman's. Carr is no more Couch than he is Aikman.

Click to expand...

And Carr is way, way behind Aikman's 4th year numbers. And I believe that Aikman's team won the Super Bowl in that 4th year. It's highly unlikely that Carr matches this, but it is a 9 game season.

the wonger need food said:

And Carr is way, way behind Aikman's 4th year numbers. And I believe that Aikman's team won the Super Bowl in that 4th year. It's highly unlikely that Carr matches this, but it is a 9 game season.

Click to expand...

are you dave ragone?

At least he doesn't cry like a little girl after a loss.

the wonger need food said:

And Carr is way, way behind Aikman's 4th year numbers. And I believe that Aikman's team won the Super Bowl in that 4th year. It's highly unlikely that Carr matches this, but it is a 9 game season.

Click to expand...

And if you can look at the last half of last season and the abrupt change since week 9 and the team that is on the field this season and say the #1 problem is Carr then we will just have to agree to disagree although I would invite a more reasoned argument than Carr sucks. I tend to be in the ArlingtonTexan camp of Carr is a Jake Plummer level QB, but you know what--Jake is going to the playoffs this year. It is the team that wins and loses, not one player.

infantrycak said:

And if you can look at the last half of last season and the abrupt change since week 9 and the team that is on the field this season and say the #1 problem is Carr then we will just have to agree to disagree although I would invite a more reasoned argument than Carr sucks. I tend to be in the ArlingtonTexan camp of Carr is a Jake Plummer level QB, but you know what--Jake is going to the playoffs this year. It is the team that wins and loses, not one player.

Click to expand...

I am not sure he will ever be as good as Plummer, but while I have dogged Carr hard this year, he made a couple of nice throws Sunday. If he can build on that we may end up with a credible passing game by the end of the year. I've really given him some grief for not challenging the middle of the field but he had a beautiful pass to Gaffney in the seam....so while I know he can make that pass, I've been cynical on his ability to spot the coverage with enough confidence to make that throw with any regularity. Hopefully he is a late bloomer.

If Kubiak is the coach here next year then he might start to play more like Plummer. They are both very similar QBs in style.

Vinny said:

I am not sure he will ever be as good as Plummer, but while I have dogged Carr hard this year, he made a couple of nice throws Sunday. If he can build on that we may end up with a credible passing game by the end of the year. I've really given him some grief for not challenging the middle of the field but he had a beautiful pass to Gaffney in the seam....so while I know he can make that pass, I've been cynical on his ability to spot the coverage with enough confidence to make that throw with any regularity. Hopefully he is a late bloomer.

Click to expand...

I can't point to anything in Carr that says going to be a great QB. On the other hand, I can see a ton of coaching changes, bad decisions, poor play by the OL, etc. that IMO clearly point to less than ideal conditions for any QB. Peyton Manning (for god's sake no one try to assert this is a David Carr equals Manning post) had things to work on as well when he came into the league. The difference is, his team and coaches put him into a position to become what he has. To me this is like the difference between putting a kid with attention deficit disorder in a room with 20 TV's and 200 toys vs. a quiet place for short term learning sessions--i.e. handicapping vs. trying to develop the most you can. IMO there just isn't a credible argument that this team has done a good job developing whatever David Carr is as a QB whether that is a game manager, a gunslinger or mobile Plummeresque player.

infantrycak said:

IMO there just isn't a credible argument that this team has done a good job developing whatever David Carr is

Click to expand...

The sad thing is you can replace the name "David Carr" with o- or d-lineman, linebacker, defensive back, receiver and the statement is pretty much true.

How many players do we have that are better now than when we got them?
Davis - who else?

How many are worse than when we got them? Wade - who else?

I think that second list will be far longer, even adjusting for the few older players doing a normal decline with age.

Maybe David Carr is a David Carr type player. There are way too many variables to try and compare one QB to another...offensive philosophy, coaching, O-line, running game and quality of the defense.

infantrycak said:

You can do the same thing for Carr's 1st three years and Aikman's. Carr is no more Couch than he is Aikman.

Click to expand...

Couch:
1999 sacked 56 times
2000 sacked 10 times
2001 sacked 51 times
Grand total: 117

Carr:
2002 sacked 76 times
2003 sacked 15 times
2004 sacked 49 times
Grand total: 140

Aikman:
1989 sacked 19 times
1990 sacked 39 times
1991 sacked 32 times
Grand total: 90

Carr's stats are way more impressive than Aikman's stats considering the amount of sacks that he has taken comparing the two. But, its so sad to see the amount of hits David has taken. I remember watching Couch and feeling for him. All of those hits basically ruined his career, as he was coached by Chris Palmer.

There is a name that IMO does not get mentioned enough when talking about the development of David Carr--Dom Capers. Does he wear blinders? Does he live in never-never land? In his 5th year with the Texans--look at our offense! Don't bother to compare this offense to any other teams--it sucks--and is worse now than it has ever been. To me, it is so silly that we have to make excuses why we can't throw the ball over the middle, or to a tight end, or down the field, etc. NFL/Pro players/high paid. This is not Pop Warner football but we act like it is and we certainly get similar results. What would happen tomorrow if the league established one big pool of money for all players, and each player was paid out of that pool based upon their play versus every other player at the same posistion for that game? We would have some poor Texans! Then, of course, you'd tie the coaches into their own pool of money based upon their players ranking and-finally-rank the head coaches. No guarantees of money---you get what your team produces. There would be some poor Texans!

Sure, this is just folly on my part but the point is a lot of money is being paid for a bad product--kinda unique in the real business world that does not keep paying for poor results year after year without a change at the top--changing anyone else just means more time for that same person at the top to...well, you get the picture. It would be one thing if their was were a few positives we could point our fingers at--like a solid offense or defense, but-instead-we are left to wonder who's fault it is our QB doesn't produce. I vote for Dom Capers.

the wonger need food just tells it like it is with stats and all you have to respect that sure we all wish david played like he did with fresno state but this is the NFL and that wont happen.

the wonger need food said:

Let's look at the stats when comparing these two QB's put into identical situations. The biggest difference is that Couch led his team to more wins and a playoff appearance.

Based on history, David Carr will not be in the NFL in 2008.

Couch (15 Games)
Year 1 - 2447 Yards, 56% Completions, 15 TD's, 13 INT's
Carr (16 Games)
Year 1 - 2592 Yards, 52% Completions, 9 TD's, 9 INT's

Couch (7 Games)
Year 2 - 1483 Yards, 64% Completions, 7 TD's, 9 INT's
Carr (12 Games)
Year 2 - 2013 Yards, 57% Completions, 9 TD's, 13 INT's

Couch (16 Games)
Year 3 - 3040 Yards, 60% Completions, 17 TD's, 21 INT's
Carr (16 Games)
Year 3 - 3531 Yards, 61% Completions, 16 TD's, 15 INT's

And Carr is well behind Couch's pace for TD's and yards in his 4th year.

Click to expand...

Let me tell you a stat that is true Chris Palmer was the coach at Browns his first 2 years then he comes here and does the same thing. so those stats would be similar.

Wonger and Napa...

Ok, if Carr is THE problem then how would you propose to fix the situation? Draft Leinart? Pick up Vinny Testeverde after the season?

The simple fact is that you could have a top notch QB on the team but he is only executing the plays (and audibles) that he is directed to. He still has a patch-work OL, no TE, and a questionable rotation of WRs. He might have some weapons to work with, ie. DD and AJ, but then any defense can isolate at least one option from almost any offense. Right now we can't expect that the defense will consistently produce turn-overs or stops. One of the few things he would have going for him is a quality special teams unit.

If management can shore up some of those areas and Carr can't progress then fine, he needs to sit. How many players have we watched leave the team and be productive elsewhere? I understand that those examples are primarily on the defensive side of the ball, but the point remains. I think this points directly to the coaching staff and to a large extent the GM. At the end of the day I think that we might never have known how good Carr could have been...if he had been picked up by an established team with some good mentorship available he might be one of the top QBs in the game. My opinion is that he would not have been the next Joe Montana but he had the tools to be a pro-bowl player.

Runner said:

The sad thing is you can replace the name "David Carr" with o- or d-lineman, linebacker, defensive back, receiver and the statement is pretty much true.

How many players do we have that are better now than when we got them?
Davis - who else?

How many are worse than when we got them? Wade - who else?

I think that second list will be far longer, even adjusting for the few older players doing a normal decline with age.

Click to expand...

I am interpreting this as who has improved and who has tanked.

Better: Dunta Robinson

Worse: Babin, Buchanon, McKinney

J-Man said:

Wonger and Napa...

Ok, if Carr is THE problem then how would you propose to fix the situation? Draft Leinart? Pick up Vinny Testeverde after the season?

Click to expand...

Well, management has to pick up his option so we're stuck with him. It would be a bad PR move not to and we now know that public perceptions are more important than fielding a competetive team. He will get 2 more seasons to produce under a new system and if he doesn't he'll be playing golf with Tim Couch, Cade McNown and Joey Harrington.

However, the organization must bring in a veteran QB or draft one as a backup plan since it's obvious they have no faith in Ragone. Many of us were calling for this last offseason. Apparantly they did not want to hurt Big Dave's feelings by doing this (remember how they had to place a call to Carr when they drafted Henson, to let him know that he wouldn't have any competition).

It's time for this organization to take a no-nonsense approach to winning and stop worrying about everyone's feelings. They should be focused on finding and fielding the best players available and not on putting the highest drafted and/or paid players on the field. Capers is a great guy, a very nice guy. But nice does not get it done on the NFL level.

Ok...Carr has two years to work with and prove he is a starter. That being said the issues go way deeper than just the QB. For a QB to be sucessful there are a lot of things that must work in his favor, Carr needs to step his game up but so do most of the other players on the field. If we don't address all those other areas as well then I don't care who you have taking the snaps we will not be in the play-offs at the end of the season.

Runner said:

The sad thing is you can replace the name "David Carr" with o- or d-lineman, linebacker, defensive back, receiver and the statement is pretty much true.

How many players do we have that are better now than when we got them?
Davis - who else?

How many are worse than when we got them? Wade - who else?

I think that second list will be far longer, even adjusting for the few older players doing a normal decline with age.

Click to expand...

Bingo! One of the better posts I have read in awhile.

In addition, one of the problems with this staff is that they have fallen in love with player projects which only work if you are (1) very smart at evaluating talent since you will be betting the ranch on "potential" either from an injured player coming back or changing positions and (2) you are very good at rapidly coaching them up to be successful in their new spot or post rehab.

Let's see....Hollings, Earl, Lord, Coleman, Babin (not a bust yet but we did reach for him), Riley, Wand etc...

humbleone said:

Bingo! One of the better posts I have read in awhile.

...

Let's see....Hollings, Earl, Lord, Coleman, Babin (not a bust yet but we did reach for him), Riley, Wand etc...

Click to expand...

Thanks.

I don't think all the players on the "got worse since they got here list" are necessarily busts; I think moving to another team where they fit the system and receive good coaching would give them a chance to reach their potential and succeed in this league.

I'm hoping that in many cases these type of players will remain with the Texans next year and receive that good coaching from a new staff here. The one thing worse than acquiring a "bust" is to write someone off and have him go excel somewhere else.

Hulk75 said:

Year 3-Is it a shocker that Dre goes to the Pro-Bowl and Carr has his best year, maybe it is the people around you that make you better.

Click to expand...

True, but not in some people's cases: See Joey Harrington.

TEXANS84 said:

True, but not in some people's cases: See Joey Harrington.

Click to expand...

Roy Williams is always hurt and Charles Rogers has only played in 9 career games. He doesn't really have all that much more help.

you know right now it's totally unfair to give carr too much blame for this teams problems...if you really watched the games you would know that atleast half of carr's ints are from bobbled catches that ended up in the defenders hands...those are not carr's fault those are the recievers...sure carr is to blame for some of the sacks he's taken but honestly that's not as many as some of ya'll believe...the o-line is horrible the recievers and tight ends might as well not even suit out with the exception going to gaffney, armstrong, and mathis on occassion...if i was carr right now i would be holding onto the ball too...if you throw it an open reciever he drops it...if you throw it to him when he's covered chances are he'll miscatch it and it'll land in the corners hands...it's just ridiculous

and for all you carr haters get ready...he will be the QB of this team next year...bob mcnair will pick up the 8 million dollars he is owed for nothing else but the hospital bills carr will be racking up if he continues to play for the texans

Vinny said:

Roy Williams is always hurt and Charles Rogers has only played in 9 career games. He doesn't really have all that much more help.

Click to expand...

He certainly hasn't had as much WR help as the drafts would indicate, but then again even with 2 of 3 1st round WR's down, that only puts him at even with Carr when Carr has had AJ. That also doesn't include the 3 other 1st round picks on his O including a RB I believe you thought was a definite upgrade on DD and 2 1st rounders on the OL. Doesn't make Carr's play any better than what it is, but I would still give the edge to Harrington on having had more player help on O.

Vinny said:

he had a beautiful pass to Gaffney in the seam....

Click to expand...

I saw that toss and it caught my attention. If he throws 20 more like that I'll be impressed. That said, he had more errant throws than otherwise Sunday.

Hulk75 said:

maybe it is the people around you that make you better.

Click to expand...

Maybe it's about time that Carr make the others around him better than the other way around. Usually the QB doesn't rely on others to make himself better. Of course, I have only been watching NFL football for four decades, so it's not like I know anything.

Porky said:

...I have only been watching NFL football for four decades, so it's not like I know anything.

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So in your 4 decades of NFL viewing, have you ever seen an offensive line as consistantly poor at pass blocking as the Texans' the past 4 seasons?

It feels like this season has been a decade long, already.

Lucky said:

So in your 4 decades of NFL viewing, have you ever seen an offensive line as consistantly poor at pass blocking as the Texans' the past 4 seasons?

It feels like this season has been a decade long, already.

Click to expand...

No, this is the worst. Having said that, do you think the QB operates in a vacuum, and that his play and leadership, both on and off the field don't have an impact? You don't think a Manning or Brady would find a way to make plays, and elevate the play of those around them? Asked to name the offensive leader on this team, the deep snapper thought about this deeply for about 30 seconds with a blank stare, before finally saying Zach Weigert. What else do you need to know about how this team feels about it's so called leader?

Its hard to judge players because of all the different factors involved. And about passing yards, im sure the other teams called more pass plays.

Porky said:

Asked to name the offensive leader on this team, the deep snapper thought about this deeply for about 30 seconds with a blank stare, before finally saying Zach Weigert. What else do you need to know about how this team feels about it's so called leader?

Click to expand...

That says everything you need to know about how this team views Big Dave. Rarely will you see an offensive lineman run over to help him up. They know he is not performing and do not respect him.

I still say it all started with his People Magazine spread last November. He has been a terrible QB since that.

Hmm have a seen a post like this before? I think so. Everyone knows stats mean nothing. It what you do when the game comes along.

Porky said:

...You don't think a Manning or Brady would find a way to make plays, and elevate the play of those around them?

Click to expand...

Manning wouldn't make it on this team. He could never take the punishment, it's not in his makeup. Look at him whining the few times he's touched in Indy. Peyton would have quit on this team.

Brady is another story. But could Brady have stayed on the field after taking the hits? He's not the physical specimen Carr is, that's why he went so late in the draft.

If you're going to examine hypotheticals, you need to look at more than the surface issues. I'm guessing that there may be a handful of QB's in the NFL who have the will and the stamina to endure the hits Carr has taken the past 4 seasons.

The fact is that no other QB has taken the abuse Carr has. You may assume this guy may have done it better, but that's all you can do. Everyone's a tough guy until they're punched in the mouth. And as far as these linemen not helping the QB up, it says a lot more about them than it does David Carr.

I think this thread shoud be called:
Wonger is IBAR...but not as good.

Enough is enough -- ignored.

swisher said:

Maybe David Carr is a David Carr type player. There are way too many variables to try and compare one QB to another...offensive philosophy, coaching, O-line, running game and quality of the defense.

Click to expand...

wow swisher, as usual you make a good point.

Lucky said:

Manning wouldn't make it on this team. He could never take the punishment, it's not in his makeup. Look at him whining the few times he's touched in Indy. Peyton would have quit on this team.

Brady is another story. But could Brady have stayed on the field after taking the hits? He's not the physical specimen Carr is, that's why he went so late in the draft.

If you're going to examine hypotheticals, you need to look at more than the surface issues. I'm guessing that there may be a handful of QB's in the NFL who have the will and the stamina to endure the hits Carr has taken the past 4 seasons.

The fact is that no other QB has taken the abuse Carr has. You may assume this guy may have done it better, but that's all you can do. Everyone's a tough guy until they're punched in the mouth. And as far as these linemen not helping the QB up, it says a lot more about them than it does David Carr.

Click to expand...

...an interesting fact would be how many sacks/hits could Carr have prevented? These other QBs--like Brady and Manning--seldom bring pain on themselves like Carr does and find a way to succeed. Right now, for example, Brady is playing behind a make shift line that has far less experience together than does Carr and is producing solid results.

IMO, the key here is will Carr 'all of a sudden' become a pro bowl caliber QB with a better line/better TE/better wideouts--in other words, is that all that is missing from the equation? No doubt, these are major pieces of the puzzle as are effective coaching, but is this all that is needed? I suspect there would still be some performance issues with Carr that aren't going to go away over night. Assuming he is given time, will Carr effectively read defenses-will he get rid of the ball in a timely manner-will he work the pocket,etc., all things and more that he has not done so far?

$8 million is a bunch of money. Giving Carr this kind of money assumes he is only a small part of the problem--ideally, after 3 years, this decision should not be a crap shoot as we should have some answers. We don't. We have opinions. If the dice is rolled, we can only hope that Carr has been a product of the hand he has been dealt and-once surrounded by 'all good'-will become our QB for a long time...

If the coaches do not change the scheme and bring in the personnel, then yes, Carr is not worth the bonus and the added years because we will be wasting his talents. I always fall back on Steve Young and the Bucanneers. He was pretty bad there, he's a hall of famer now, but even he couldn't shine with a bad team. Even Elway needed good players to excel. If Carr isn't going to be allowed to showcase his talent then I'd let him go. Drafting a Lienart or whomever doesn't make much sense either since they would pretty much be doing the same thing. We just are not a wide-open style of offense. There are no surprises, we are just telling you what we are going to do and it's up to you to stop us.

tsip said:

...$8 million is a bunch of money. Giving Carr this kind of money assumes he is only a small part of the problem--ideally, after 3 years, this decision should not be a crap shoot as we should have some answers. We don't. We have opinions. If the dice is rolled, we can only hope that Carr has been a product of the hand he has been dealt and-once surrounded by 'all good'-will become our QB for a long time...

Click to expand...

This has become my biggest issue with the Carr situation. From an organizational standpoint, it is inexcuseable to not have a real idea on whether Carr is THE guy, just another guy, or a spare after 50 starts. If anything pretty close to 4 years of running the same guy out there, I argue there are more questions instead of less.

the wonger need food said:

And Carr is way, way behind Aikman's 4th year numbers. And I believe that Aikman's team won the Super Bowl in that 4th year. It's highly unlikely that Carr matches this, but it is a 9 game season.

Click to expand...

Can we all please remind ourselves what kind of line Aikman had at that time and how good he was when he didn't even have a line half as bad as the ones David has played with.

Oh yeah, he also played for coaches that coached with some CAJONES.

Porky said:

Asked to name the offensive leader on this team, the deep snapper thought about this deeply for about 30 seconds with a blank stare, before finally saying Zach Weigert. What else do you need to know about how this team feels about it's so called leader?

Click to expand...

Jamie Sharper called David Carr a team leader, and I am going to put more stock in a Super Bowl Champions word than a deep snapper. But hey, that's just me.

keyfro said:

you know right now it's totally unfair to give carr too much blame for this teams problems...if you really watched the games you would know that atleast half of carr's ints are from bobbled catches that ended up in the defenders hands

Click to expand...

I believe that quarterbacks get too much credit when things go good. In return they get too much of the blame when things go wrong. Carr may never develop into a Hall Of Fame QB. But not every QB that is in the Hall of Fame has won a Super Bowl. There are a bunch of others that have won a ring that will never sniff the Hall. The most important thing to me is that the Texans make it to the Super Bowl. I believe given the chance and some help up front that Carr has the tools to get us there.

For all the people bashing Carr about the sacks. Take a look at Culpepper’s stats this year. Sacked 31 times this year with 12 INT’s. He only had 11 INT’s all of last year and 46 sacks. Quarterbacks need time!

Yeah...a message about stats and sacks and leaders and all that.

Carr's had a porous line since he entered the league. And yes, he's made some bad decisions. But it is a lot easier to learn how to execute plays well when you get less pressure on occasion.

He's not all world...but rarely are stars made in a year or two. Brady was only amazing this past season, with the patriot team (especially defense) the centerpiece before that. And early Manning/Aikman/whatever...same deal.

Get the kid a line, a weapon or two, some new coaches, and give him the length of his new contract to develop. If he can't cut it with an improved offense around him, bring in a veteran or draft a quaterback then. Have some faith in the guy...if you call him Tim Couch now he could end up some other teams Jon Kitna or Kerry Collins. Or even a Plummer, Drew Brees, or Brett Farve. You never know...

and the thread is back after 4 months

spastikmooss said:

Brady was only amazing this past season, with the patriot team (especially defense) the centerpiece before that.

Click to expand...

Uh, you are kidding right.

spastikmooss said:

Yeah...a message about stats and sacks and leaders and all that.

Carr's had a porous line since he entered the league. And yes, he's made some bad decisions. But it is a lot easier to learn how to execute plays well when you get less pressure on occasion.

He's not all world...but rarely are stars made in a year or two. Brady was only amazing this past season, with the patriot team (especially defense) the centerpiece before that. And early Manning/Aikman/whatever...same deal.

Get the kid a line, a weapon or two, some new coaches, and give him the length of his new contract to develop. If he can't cut it with an improved offense around him, bring in a veteran or draft a quaterback then. Have some faith in the guy...if you call him Tim Couch now he could end up some other teams Jon Kitna or Kerry Collins. Or even a Plummer, Drew Brees, or Brett Farve. You never know...

Click to expand...

Sir this is 2006, you may want to get your time machine serviced and have them look at your flux compacitor.

infantrycak said:

You can do the same thing for Carr's 1st three years and Aikman's. Carr is no more Couch than he is Aikman.

Click to expand...

or drew brees

uh oh ... somebody's been playing with the way back machine

My computer almost crashed

"I hate Carr thread" #7505323. We have a record.

bigTEXan8 said:

"I hate Carr thread" #7505323. We have a record.

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If you are going participate in a hate Carr thread then you should have some background on it. This thread was started many months ago. No need to inflate the hate.