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"If" Mario leaves for greener pastures, then what?

M

mussop

Hall of Fame
I know I know all you Mario man crushers are insisting we will resign Mario but WHAT IF he gets an offer that we can't justify matching? Then what? I present you with

plan A : Carl Nicks, G, Saints. Age: 27.
Carl Nicks is arguably the top guard in all of football. He has no
weaknesses to his game; his blasts open huge holes for his running back,
and he seldom allows a quarterback pressure. He was whistled for only two
penalties all year.

Use the money we were going to give to Mario and lock up the best OG in the NFL. Even the top OG's dont make what Mario is going to command on the open market.

plan B: Paul Soliai, NT, Dolphins. Age: 28.
At 6-4, 355 pounds, Paul Soliai is a monstrous, run-stuffing nose tackle.
He made $12.3 million with the franchise tag this season.

It could be argued that either of these guys could be more valuable to the Texans than Mario.

plan C: Calais Campbell, DE/DT, Cardinals. Age: 26.
You could argue that aside from Justin Smith, Calais Campbell is the best 3-4 defensive end in all of football. Campbell has no weaknesses; he's a ferocious pass-rusher, he blocks kicks, and he can even drop into coverage pretty well. And he'll be 25 until Sept. 1.

A younger version of Mario?

plan D: Vincent Jackson, WR, Chargers, Chargers. Age: 29.
Vincent Jackson amazingly has never caught more than 68 passes in a single season, but with his size (6-5, 230) and downfield ability, he's one of the top physical talents at the wide receiver position in the NFL.

Imagine what he would do for AJ's career.

plan E: Kendall Langford, DE/DT, Dolphins. Age: 26.
Kendall Langford is a really good, young five-tech who excels in both stopping the run and putting pressure on the quarterback.

AND

Wesley Woodyard, OLB, Broncos. Age: 26.
Wesley Woodyard could be a starting weakside linebacker somewhere,
but didn't get the opportunity to play at that position this past year
because of D.J. Williams.

AND

Dan Connor, ILB, Panthers. Age: 26.
Don't expect Dan Connor to be back with the Panthers; otherwise,
he'll have to play behind Jon Beason. Connor is talented and young,
and could easily be a starter somewhere else.

Three for the price of one! All good young players that already have shown they can produce with lots of upside that would add solid depth.
 
ObsiWan said:
I thought you were going to stop obsessing over this
:D
Click to expand...

I never said that. :) This isn't about arguing whether or not we should retain him or his worth to the team. Its a discussion about what direction should we go in if "GOD FORBID" we loose him. :barman:
 
i say we use the money from mario to either A) get another good WR to put on the field with AJ or B) Find a good #2 CB, yes i think KJ had a good year but i think he looked good because our front 7 was good.
 
Those of you that expect us to let Mario walk and use the extra money to sign 1 or 2 top FA's will be very disappointed. We are already over the cap so letting Mario walk will allow us to re-sign our FA's and give Foster a new deal. Restructure a few contracts and we will be able to sign a vet or two in FA and then sign our draft picks.

We aren't going to be landing guys like Nicks or Jackson.
 
Plan A and C will both be franchise tagged if a deal can't be reached. The Saints will make sure Brees gets a contract and Nicks is #2 priority to them.
The Cards don't really have pressing issues with their own free agents, and Campbell the main one worth resigning. He'd have to say "I don't want to be here" in order for a contract to not be reached, and if he does they'll use the tag. If by some miracle he does hit the market because he's looking for a payday we'd be tying up alot of future money at the 34 DE spot, although Smith would be gone at that time.
I'm pretty sure both of those teams aren't hurting in the cap area though.
Plan B depends entirely on if Wade wants him, plus Soliai will be looking for his last big payday for a specialized elite 34 NT spot. It's highly likely they let Soliai walk, but they need to retain Plan E Langford no matter what type of defense they decide to walk. They'll be running low on DLine depth if they let both go.
I'm really not interested in a high profile WR "unless" mario goes. I don't know if Vincent Jackson would fit our offense though. He's more of a big play guy I think. Plus he wants alot of money
I'm all for the ILB depth. Those are great value FA's too, but they wouldn't start here either, if they think they are good enough to start and get starters salary they won't land here.
This years FA crop doesn't really excite me like previous years. 1 because I believe that our team has most of the elite FA prospects, and 2 the other teams with elite FA prospects will likely Resign or tag those players.
There are a few B-list player's I'd like but priority #1 is Myers, Brisiel, and Foster (and Mario)
 
WolverineFan said:
Those of you that expect us to let Mario walk and use the extra money to sign 1 or 2 top FA's will be very disappointed. We are already over the cap so letting Mario walk will allow us to re-sign our FA's and give Foster a new deal. Restructure a few contracts and we will be able to sign a vet or two in FA and then sign our draft picks.

We aren't going to be landing guys like Nicks or Jackson.
Click to expand...

anybody over jacoby is an upgrade, hell i dont care if we draft a WR but to me another WR and CB is more important than finding a replacment for Mario.
 
WolverineFan said:
Those of you that expect us to let Mario walk and use the extra money to sign 1 or 2 top FA's will be very disappointed. We are already over the cap so letting Mario walk will allow us to re-sign our FA's and give Foster a new deal. Restructure a few contracts and we will be able to sign a vet or two in FA and then sign our draft picks.

We aren't going to be landing guys like Nicks or Jackson.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry did you say something? I got lost in your avatar. Oh yeh, if thats the case then how do you expect us to sign Mario and all our FA's?
 
Brandon420tx said:
Plan A and C will both be franchise tagged if a deal can't be reached. The Saints will make sure Brees gets a contract and Nicks is #2 priority to them.

Then maybe we should be looking at Marques Colston.

The Cards don't really have pressing issues with their own free agents, and Campbell the main one worth resigning. He'd have to say "I don't want to be here" in order for a contract to not be reached, and if he does they'll use the tag. If by some miracle he does hit the market because he's looking for a payday we'd be tying up alot of future money at the 34 DE spot, although Smith would be gone at that time.
I'm pretty sure both of those teams aren't hurting in the cap area though.

Plan B depends entirely on if Wade wants him, plus Soliai will be looking for his last big payday for a specialized elite 34 NT spot. It's highly likely they let Soliai walk, but they need to retain Plan E Langford no matter what type of defense they decide to walk. They'll be running low on DLine depth if they let both go.

Why wouldn't wade want a top shelf DT?

I'm really not interested in a high profile WR "unless" mario goes. I don't know if Vincent Jackson would fit our offense though. He's more of a big play guy I think. Plus he wants alot of money

All FA's want alot of money. I thought a big play WR is what everyone wanted. A speedy big WR that can block and stretch the field seems like perfect fit to me.

I'm all for the ILB depth. Those are great value FA's too, but they wouldn't start here either, if they think they are good enough to start and get starters salary they won't land here.

They could all be rotation players right now and eventual starters for one of the top defenses and a playoff caliber team. Thats a nice selling point.

This years FA crop doesn't really excite me like previous years. 1 because I believe that our team has most of the elite FA prospects, and 2 the other teams with elite FA prospects will likely Resign or tag those players.
There are a few B-list player's I'd like but priority #1 is Myers, Brisiel, and Foster (and Mario)
Click to expand...

I wouldn't mind seeing us take a look at some of the lesser known FA's to replace some of our current FA's


Guys like

Wesley Woodyard, OLB, Broncos. Age: 26.
Wesley Woodyard could be a starting weakside linebacker somewhere,
but didn't get the opportunity to play at that position this past year
because of D.J. Williams.

Dan Connor, ILB, Panthers. Age: 26.
Don't expect Dan Connor to be back with the Panthers; otherwise,
he'll have to play behind Jon Beason. Connor is talented and young,
and could easily be a starter somewhere else.

Richard Marshall, CB, Cardinals. Age: 27.
Richard Marshall played pretty well at corner in the second
half of the year. He was also effective in stepping in for an
injured Kerry Rhodes at free safety.

William Middleton, CB, Jaguars. Age: 26.
William Middleton doesn't have much NFL experience, but he
handled himself really well in relief of Derek Cox and Rashean
Mathis in 2011. He's a young corner with loads of potential.

Pierre Garcon, WR, Colts. Age: 26.

Owen Schmitt, FB, Eagles. Age: 27

Jeremy Zuttah, G/C, Buccaneers. Age: 26.
Jeremy Zuttah is a decent lineman who can play multiple positions.

And I wouldn't mind bringing in a one year rental like

Reggie Wayne, WR, Colts. Age: 33.
Reggie Wayne turns 34 in November. He might still be able to get
it done as a No.2 receiver somewhere next year.
 
"IF" Mario walks then...

Plan A will not happen regardless if the Saints sign him or not. He is ideal for a downhill running team not a zone blocking team like the Texans. There's no point in investing around $8 million for a high profile OG, unless we plan on changing systems.

Plan B I think Cody did a nice job. He made around $12 million, which is the price for a top NT. He would be no cheaper than Mario. If they are interested in a larger NT they will address it in the draft.


Plan C He is young. He is 6-8 300 freakish size and very disruptive and perfect as a 3-4 DE. Has been very productive over the past to year. Younger Mario Williams? I don't think so. He is 25. Mario is 26. Not much age difference. He is primarily a 3-4 DE. Mario played 3-4 OLB, begin his career as a 4-3 DE, and I believe Wade had plans on using him as a 3-4 DE to share the field with Barwin and Reed. So I think Williams is a more versatile player. Nevertheless, I don't think the Cardinals will let someone as talented as Campbell walk. Plus we have JJ Watt and Antonio Smith both have had solid seasons and both demand the occasional double team which frees up our edge rushers. So I think we're fine in that category (especially "IF" we resign Williams).

Plan D Wouldn't that be nice...too bad it's not happening. If we go after a FA WR it should be after a lesser name like Pierre Garcon, Robert Meachem, or my favorite Laurent Robinson. Otherwise, we will most likely address WR in the draft.

Plan E I think we're fine with Antonio and JJ.


"IF" Mario walks, then we will most likely try to address depth in the draft instead of FA. But we would be deep WITH Mario, so I hope we can sign him to a long term deal.
 
I'm a little worried about the clamor to sign WR's like Wayne, Garcon & Meachem, Wayne looked great with Manning chucking it at him, Garcon looked good with Manning throwing it at him, Meachem looked decent in patches with Brees throwing it at him.

Now, we've seen this year how Peyton Manning even elevated the play of his defense with how long he makes drives last, so what illusion he's having on his WR's worries me.

Wayne didn't quite make it to 1000 yards this season, now is that what happens when Peyton isn't throwing it to him (which we won't have) or is that his increasing age (even worse for a prospective bidder)

Garcon put up career numbers this season just gone, that gives me hope, maybe he's a good option for the longer term??
 
I dont think it is a "if" Mario walks....its a "when"....
Mario is going to want more money than the Texans can afford. He is going to want "elite" defensive end money. We have other issues to address as well.....such as a young wide receiver....another cornerback.....and resigning of some of the other players on the team.
 
What I don't get is the people saying 'sign him at any cost' and those saying 'cut him no matter how little he costs' as well as the incredible expertise shown about the intricacies of the Texans' cap situation.

If Mario walks, I'll assume that we are closer to having a cap problem than I thought. In that situation, I don't see much chance of us signing anyone in FA who's going to make an impact, because if they've got the money, they're going to use it to tie up Mario.

Dalemurphy seems to be of the opinion that the have to let Mario walk because of his cap implications, yet they're going to be able to go out and sign a 1b WR, 1b CB stud NT and replacement stud OLB for the same sort of cash. Not a hope in hell that that scenario plays out.

The only way Mario walks and Houston has money to spend, is if its Mario's choice to move.
 
GuerillaBlack said:
I have no idea why people want to go after Robert Meacham. He's a WR3. Saints fans don't want him back...
Click to expand...

This puzzles me also. Maybe it's because he'll probably be rather "affordable" considering he was a first round pick...

Another thing is we don't know how our P/S WRs (Iglesias, Maehl, and Jean) could develop with a full set of OTAs and training camp under their belts. While I'm not against going the F/A route, I just think the draft or one of these guys is where we will find our Jacoby replacement unit. Especially given our cap situation.
 
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Agree'd if we're going to go after a B-list WR I'd rather take Harry Douglas or Eddie Royal. Meacham = C list in my eyes
 
ObsiWan said:
This puzzles me also. Maybe it's because he'll probably be rather "affordable" considering he was a first round pick...
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Because, what the team needs at WR, IMO, is a WR3 that can step in and be a WR1 when AJ is injured. We don't need to pay for a WR to come in and play 60 snaps a game, make 90 catches for 1300 yards..

What the offense needs is a playmaker at WR. A guy that can stretch/scare the defense with his speed. When AJ's healthy, Meachem is a luxury and may start in some packages. When AJ's injured, Meachem is the key to the offense, not because he's a great WR but because he's a great threat at WR. We need a guy that can demand safety help over the top. Meachem is that guy.

Meachem is young and will cost less than 1/2 the money guys like Vincent Jackson (who I wouldn't mind either), Colston, Wayne will cost. I'm not opposed to guys like Eddie Royal, though I don't think he is as good of a fit.

Oh, and Meachem blocks well.
 
Maybe a change of location would improve him but all the Saints fans I know think about as much of Meachem as we do of Jacoby.

ESPN Scouts, Inc...
Comment: Meachem is a good-sized receiver with excellent straight-line speed and adequate agility and route-running skills. He is a downfield receiver that does a good job of eating up the cushion on defenders and can use his stride length to sneak by them. He needs work on his hard cuts because he is not great sinking his hips to get in and out of breaks with quick feet and burst. He is best when running under the deep ball and catching it in stride.
Click to expand...

That doesn't sound much of a A.J. replacement unit to me.
...but then there are few who could be.
 
Brandon420tx said:
Agree'd if we're going to go after a B-list WR I'd rather take Harry Douglas or Eddie Royal. Meacham = C list in my eyes
Click to expand...

I like Douglas myself. He looked pretty good against us when we played the Dirty Birds. I recall him catching a couple of 2nd half passes to move the chains for them.

He would be an improvement at #3 WR but, again, not close to an A.J. replacement unit.
 
ObsiWan said:
Maybe a change of location would improve him but all the Saints fans I know think about as much of Meachem as we do of Jacoby.

ESPN Scouts, Inc...

That doesn't sound much of a A.J. replacement unit to me.
...but then there are few who could be.
Click to expand...


Let me be clear: Meachem can't replace AJ's productivity. However, my point is that we need someone that can stretch the field and make big plays with AJ is unavailable. With our running game and wealth of productive receiving TEs, the offensive could still execute at a very high level if we had a speedster that could actually make plays (JJ simply can't). Meachem's value when AJ is injured would be to allow room for Foster, Tate, OD, KW, Casey, Dreessen, etc... to operate, not to replace Johnson's 8 catches and 130 yards. The fact that Meachem is a very good blocker, makes him an ideal fit for that role, IMO.

In a fantasy world, of course I'd like someone akin to Vincent Jackson here. However, I don't think it is realistic to invest that much of the cap towards two WRs, particularly when you are a run-oriented team.
 
If Mario walks, we sign our FA's and are much better prepared to resign our FA's next offseason. In the meantime, draft BPA throughout the draft and resist the urge to reach for a player at a particular position. The Texans will not be players in the FA market, outside of resigning most of our own, this offseason.
It's not sexy or flashy, but I believe that's the proper mindset going forward.
That's also the approach that 2 of the most successful franchises in the league approach every offseason: Pittsburgh and New England. :twocents:
 
If all indications are that Mario is leaving, that leaves more pie for our current key-FA's to want. Just as there is no expectation for Mario to sign a sweetheart deal that benefits the Texans' long term forecast, there should be no expectation that other Texan FA's will do so in kind who are up for FA in a potential Mario vacuum.
 
mussop said:
I know I know all you Mario man crushers are insisting we will resign Mario but WHAT IF he gets an offer that we can't justify matching? Then what? I present you with
Click to expand...
No one can make Mario an offer until FA starts.... March something or other. We should have presented Mario a fair offer & hopefully signed him by then.

If we don't sign Mario before the FA period starts.... he's gone. Simple as that.

mussop said:
plan A : Carl Nicks, G, Saints. Age: 27.
Carl Nicks is arguably the top guard in all of football. He has no
weaknesses to his game; his blasts open huge holes for his running back,
and he seldom allows a quarterback pressure. He was whistled for only two
penalties all year.

Use the money we were going to give to Mario and lock up the best OG in the NFL. Even the top OG's dont make what Mario is going to command on the open market.
Click to expand...
If the Saints let Nicks walk, they'll be as dumb as the Texans for allowing Mario to walk.

I don't think Nicks hits FA.
mussop said:
plan B: Paul Soliai, NT, Dolphins. Age: 28.
At 6-4, 355 pounds, Paul Soliai is a monstrous, run-stuffing nose tackle.
He made $12.3 million with the franchise tag this season.

It could be argued that either of these guys could be more valuable to the Texans than Mario.

plan C: Calais Campbell, DE/DT, Cardinals. Age: 26.
You could argue that aside from Justin Smith, Calais Campbell is the best 3-4 defensive end in all of football. Campbell has no weaknesses; he's a ferocious pass-rusher, he blocks kicks, and he can even drop into coverage pretty well. And he'll be 25 until Sept. 1.

A younger version of Mario?
Click to expand...
Beautiful..... I love this. If Mario walks, we have to replace him. Solail leaving Miami, I'm not seeing it. But if he's out there, lets get him. This Campbell fella, gotta take your word, although I don't think we got what we expected from the least DE we got from Arizona. Talks loud, carries a big stick..... but that's about it.

But yes, get more help, to allow Jj, Reed, & Barwin to do what they do.
mussop said:
plan D: Vincent Jackson, WR, Chargers, Chargers. Age: 29.
Vincent Jackson amazingly has never caught more than 68 passes in a single season, but with his size (6-5, 230) and downfield ability, he's one of the top physical talents at the wide receiver position in the NFL.

Imagine what he would do for AJ's career.
Click to expand...
Honestly, Andre gets open in our system with what we've got. I personally don't think the bottle neck is because of our receiving options.
mussop said:
plan E: Kendall Langford, DE/DT, Dolphins. Age: 26.
Kendall Langford is a really good, young five-tech who excels in both stopping the run and putting pressure on the quarterback.

AND

Wesley Woodyard, OLB, Broncos. Age: 26.
Wesley Woodyard could be a starting weakside linebacker somewhere,
but didn't get the opportunity to play at that position this past year
because of D.J. Williams.

AND

Dan Connor, ILB, Panthers. Age: 26.
Don't expect Dan Connor to be back with the Panthers; otherwise,
he'll have to play behind Jon Beason. Connor is talented and young,
and could easily be a starter somewhere else.

Three for the price of one! All good young players that already have shown they can produce with lots of upside that would add solid depth.
Click to expand...

I'm fine with that. You seem to understand letting Mario walk will create a need on the defensive side of the ball. You've got those covered. If you were running the FO & you had this type of plan, I would approve if I were Bob, Kubiak, Wade, etc......

Any plan to let Mario Walk & crossing of fingers wouldn't fly.
 
welsh texan said:
I'm a little worried about the clamor to sign WR's like Wayne, Garcon & Meachem, Wayne looked great with Manning chucking it at him, Garcon looked good with Manning throwing it at him, Meachem looked decent in patches with Brees throwing it at him.

Now, we've seen this year how Peyton Manning even elevated the play of his defense with how long he makes drives last, so what illusion he's having on his WR's worries me.

Wayne didn't quite make it to 1000 yards this season, now is that what happens when Peyton isn't throwing it to him (which we won't have) or is that his increasing age (even worse for a prospective bidder)

Garcon put up career numbers this season just gone, that gives me hope, maybe he's a good option for the longer term??
Click to expand...
Both Manning and Schaub are way better than Dan Orlovsky and they would make any good receiver look great.
 
Wayne was just forty yards away from 1,00 yards this season without a great QB this season.
 
dalemurphy said:
Let me be clear: Meachem can't replace AJ's productivity. However, my point is that we need someone that can stretch the field and make big plays with AJ is unavailable. With our running game and wealth of productive receiving TEs, the offensive could still execute at a very high level if we had a speedster that could actually make plays (JJ simply can't).
Click to expand...

The first play of the Bengal's game..... Jacoby didn't catch the ball, but it should have scared the crap out of that secondary.

The first play against Tampa Bay..... hello.... 80 yard TD after Jj split two defenders.

The Baltimore game, the big TD on Reed.

I'm watching the Miami game now. Jj had a couple of great punt returns (one for 39 yards) & a couple of great catches. One for 30 some yards.....

The man averages over 16 yards a catch.

I've said several times I'm ok with cutting Jacoby Jones, but Robert Meachum is not an upgrade.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
If all indications are that Mario is leaving, that leaves more pie for our current key-FA's to want.
Click to expand...
All current indications are that the Texans will sign Mario. The Texans have publicly said they want to sign him. Mario publicly said he wants to be here.
Kaiser Toro said:
Just as there is no expectation for Mario to sign a sweetheart deal that benefits the Texans' long term forecast,
Click to expand...
No need to "create" a "sweetheart" deal to sign Mario. All we need is a low cap number for 2012, a fat bonus should do that. I don't know if it's possible, but we could probably offer a $10M signing bonus & a $5M roster bonus for 2012..... his cap number would be $10M/length of contract, lets say 5 years=$2M, his 2012 roster bonus $5M & whatever salary they put on 2012 $1M cap number equals $2M+$5M+$1M=$8M

If his cap # for 2011 was $18M, we save $10M
Kaiser Toro said:
there should be no expectation that other Texan FA's will do so in kind who are up for FA in a potential Mario vacuum.
Click to expand...

They are assuming we free up $18 Million by not signing Mario. My way, we get Mario & $10M to sign FAs.
 
thunderkyss said:
All current indications are that the Texans will sign Mario. The Texans have publicly said they want to sign him. Mario publicly said he wants to be here.

No need to "create" a "sweetheart" deal to sign Mario. All we need is a low cap number for 2012, a fat bonus should do that. I don't know if it's possible, but we could probably offer a $10M signing bonus & a $5M roster bonus for 2012..... his cap number would be $10M/length of contract, lets say 5 years=$2M, his 2012 roster bonus $5M & whatever salary they put on 2012 $1M cap number equals $2M+$5M+$1M=$8M

If his cap # for 2011 was $18M, we save $10M


They are assuming we free up $18 Million by not signing Mario. My way, we get Mario & $10M to sign FAs.
Click to expand...

The title of the thread starts with "if."
 
rush2112mn said:
I dont think it is a "if" Mario walks....its a "when"....
Mario is going to want more money than the Texans can afford. He is going to want "elite" defensive end money. We have other issues to address as well.....such as a young wide receiver....another cornerback.....and resigning of some of the other players on the team.
Click to expand...

Sir elite defensive end money is between $11-$14 million average salary. The Texans can offer that to him. But the catch is we have to backload it and get him to agree to smaller cap number for 2012 before he can see the "elite" numbers down the line. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he could return. So for now we are just speculating "what if"...;)
 
No Mario = signing FAs with that money?

xzbitlol.png
@ this ****.
 
thunderkyss said:
The first play of the Bengal's game..... Jacoby didn't catch the ball, but it should have scared the crap out of that secondary.

The first play against Tampa Bay..... hello.... 80 yard TD after Jj split two defenders.

The Baltimore game, the big TD on Reed.

I'm watching the Miami game now. Jj had a couple of great punt returns (one for 39 yards) & a couple of great catches. One for 30 some yards.....

The man averages over 16 yards a catch.

I've said several times I'm ok with cutting Jacoby Jones, but Robert Meachum is not an upgrade.
Click to expand...


Here's what Football outsiders says about the two players:

In 2011: http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr
Robert Meachem ranked #21
Jacoby Jones ranked #60

In 2010: http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr2010
Robert Meachem ranked #19
Jacoby Jones ranked #63

In 2009: http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr2009
Robert Meachem ranked #12
Jacoby didn't qualify with enough catches but would've been about #27

Football outsiders statistical rankings are the best metric I know to compare players. It's not perfect but it is a great model to look at. Clearly, according to football outsiders, there is no comparison between the two players.

Both Jacoby and Meachem were fulfilling a similar role in the offense during that three year span.
 
dalemurphy said:
Football outsiders statistical rankings are the best metric I know to compare players. It's not perfect but it is a great model to look at. Clearly, according to football outsiders, there is no comparison between the two players.
Click to expand...
I agree with the no comparison part, primarily because of the different offenses these two guys played in. Put Jacoby in that vertical offense run by the Saints or put Meachum in our WCO, it's a wash.

The Saints offense is very WR friendly almost anyone would look good in it. Our offense is very QB friendly, we'll never have two 1000 yard receivers.

dalemurphy said:
Both Jacoby and Meachem were fulfilling a similar role in the offense during that three year span.
Click to expand...

The Saints are no different than any other NFL team. A 1st round pick is going to have more opportunity to produce than a 3rd round PR.

If you're telling me they are both 3WRs, I agree. If you're trying to tell me that Meachum will keep a defense more honest than Jj if Aj misses a game, I'm sorry, but we're going to have to agree to disagree.

If you are telling me the vet minimum would be wisely spent on a #3 WR, I'm saying you're flat out wrong.
 
mussop said:
I'm sorry did you say something? I got lost in your avatar. Oh yeh, if thats the case then how do you expect us to sign Mario and all our FA's?
Click to expand...

We won't be signing Mario. Only way it happens is if he takes a major pay cut and if I were him I wouldn't.
 
thunderkyss said:
I agree with the no comparison part, primarily because of the different offenses these two guys played in. Put Jacoby in that vertical offense run by the Saints or put Meachum in our WCO, it's a wash.

The Saints offense is very WR friendly almost anyone would look good in it. Our offense is very QB friendly, we'll never have two 1000 yard receivers.



The Saints are no different than any other NFL team. A 1st round pick is going to have more opportunity to produce than a 3rd round PR.

If you're telling me they are both 3WRs, I agree. If you're trying to tell me that Meachum will keep a defense more honest than Jj if Aj misses a game, I'm sorry, but we're going to have to agree to disagree.

If you are telling me the vet minimum would be wisely spent on a #3 WR, I'm saying you're flat out wrong.
Click to expand...


You must not have looked at the Football Outsiders statistics. The rankings have nearly nothing to do with the # of catches nor total yards. Instead, it factors in a number of things that aim to rate a player regardless of their surroundings (not entirely possible). Jacoby isn't below Meachem on the rankings because he had less opportunities, it is because he was much less efficient when he had the opportunities.

Jacoby has started a number of games and sees the field at nearly the same rate that Meachem does. So, the idea that Meachem gets opportunities that Jacoby doesn't get opportunities due to draft position is bogus. The Texans have a 3rd year UDFA starring at running back. The fact that Jacoby's role and impact on the offense is as small as it is has nothing to do with being a 3rd round pick and everything to do with his inefficiency.

Meachem will get much more than the veteran minimum, whomever he signs with. I'm guessing something like 5 years and $20 million. I would love the Texans to get Meachem for that. Clearly, if you don't like the idea of signing him for the vet minimum, that number will freak you out.
 
dalemurphy said:
You must not have looked at the Football Outsiders statistics. The rankings have nearly nothing to do with the # of catches nor total yards. Instead, it factors in a number of things that aim to rate a player regardless of their surroundings (not entirely possible). Jacoby isn't below Meachem on the rankings because he had less opportunities, it is because he was much less efficient when he had the opportunities.

Jacoby has started a number of games and sees the field at nearly the same rate that Meachem does. So, the idea that Meachem gets opportunities that Jacoby doesn't get opportunities due to draft position is bogus. The Texans have a 3rd year UDFA starring at running back. The fact that Jacoby's role and impact on the offense is as small as it is has nothing to do with being a 3rd round pick and everything to do with his inefficiency.

Meachem will get much more than the veteran minimum, whomever he signs with. I'm guessing something like 5 years and $20 million. I would love the Texans to get Meachem for that. Clearly, if you don't like the idea of signing him for the vet minimum, that number will freak you out.
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A rookie in the 1st round is cheaper than that. Heck a rookie in the 1st round AND Lestar Jean is cheaper than that. I'd take my chances there instead of investing so much into a receiver that everyone agrees would be no better than Jacoby stepping into the role of #1 without AJ.
 
cbs1507 said:
A rookie in the 1st round is cheaper than that. Heck a rookie in the 1st round AND Lestar Jean is cheaper than that. I'd take my chances there instead of investing so much into a receiver that everyone agrees would be no better than Jacoby stepping into the role of #1 without AJ.
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First of all, plenty of people disagree that Meachem wouldn't be better than Jacoby. Above, I've sited Football Outsiders among those that dramatically disagree.

Second, I'd love for the Texans to draft a Wide Receiver in round one. However, I would hate for them to count on the rookie to be a difference-maker as a rookie (particularly a late first rounder). Seldom does a rookie WR make a significant, positive impact. The Texans only have three receivers likely to make the 53 man roster under contract (and one of those is JJ, whom could be cut). So, signing a free agent WR and drafting one is almost a certainty.
 
dalemurphy said:
First of all, plenty of people disagree that Meachem wouldn't be better than Jacoby. Above, I've sited Football Outsiders among those that dramatically disagree.

Second, I'd love for the Texans to draft a Wide Receiver in round one. However, I would hate for them to count on the rookie to be a difference-maker as a rookie (particularly a late first rounder). Seldom does a rookie WR make a significant, positive impact. The Texans only have three receivers likely to make the 53 man roster under contract (and one of those is JJ, whom could be cut). So, signing a free agent WR and drafting one is almost a certainty.
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First of all I said nothing about who is better than who. I said everyone agrees that neither would be sufficient in filling in at #1 for AJ.

Second, there is no point in investing that much money in a #3 WR who obviously would be no better than Jacoby at filling in for AJ. So therefore, we are better off financially in taking a chance on a rookie in the draft and seeing what Lestar Jean can do because both are cheaper than your proposed deal to a #3 WR that is mainly just a deep threat (sound familiar? *cough cough* Jacoby Jones).

BTW if we were to sign a FA WR. I'd rather sign Laurent Robinson. He is just as fast as Meachem but a better route runner. He is also QB friendly when the play breaks down. He had a stellar season filling in for Miles Austin. Plus, I don't think he'll cost as much as your proposed Meachem deal.
 
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I expect mario tobe back & with a savings of $7m to 10m depending on his actual cap hit that no one knows. That would allow an ANdre Johnson type contract for Bowe with a nice bonus upfront to entice him. Then you have your #2 WR & a future replacement for the HOF. I'd then hope that Peter Konz falls to #26 and select Zeitler in round 2.
 
badboy said:
I expect mario tobe back & with a savings of $7m to 10m depending on his actual cap hit that no one knows. That would allow an ANdre Johnson type contract for Bowe with a nice bonus upfront to entice him. Then you have your #2 WR & a future replacement for the HOF. I'd then hope that Peter Konz falls to #26 and select Zeitler in round 2.
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too much to drink, eh?
 
badboy said:
I expect mario tobe back & with a savings of $7m to 10m depending on his actual cap hit that no one knows. That would allow an ANdre Johnson type contract for Bowe with a nice bonus upfront to entice him. Then you have your #2 WR & a future replacement for the HOF. I'd then hope that Peter Konz falls to #26 and select Zeitler in round 2.
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Is KC in some kind of cap-hell?

Really, do we think Bowe is going to leave?

They are were we were last year, probably better. 10-6 & a play-off berth in 2010. They're young & talented & now they got a coach.
 
The Saints being my second favorite team, since I was a kid, I follow the Saints a lot (of course, Houston teams being my faves, bar none).

The thing people are missing about Robert Meachem is two-fold.

#1.) Yes, he would be considerable upgrade over Jacoby Jones as a legit #2. The Saints have been blessed with a lot of great WRs, so Meachem gets lost in the wash a little bit. I'm with Dale, he's a #2 on most teams.

#2.) Chances are, the Saints are going to keep him, not only because they have a lot of cap room (with or without the new TV revenue), but also they'll let Devery Henderson ride out the rest of his contract, and keep the more productive Robert Meachum, due to age, etc.

I would love for the Texans to get Robert Meachem, plus at least a 2nd round rookie, and with Lestar Jean being healthy and KW, our WR corps suddenly looks deadly (for the first time).

But I don't think that's going to happen with Meachem, for the above reasons.

If the Texans really do decided to make a big splash at WR in the free-agent market, then the sexiest choice for the money and circumstances would be Mario Manningham as a legit #2.

Not only do the Giants have little cap space to play with - much like us - but also, with Victor Cruz coming on like he has, the Giants will be more likely to let Manningham walk, as opposed to the Saints and Meachem.

Otherwise, the Texans are looking at an older stop-gap WR like Reggie Wayne, until they can get some kid to really catch fire. Remember, we want to make a bid at the big show now! And our best chance would look something like this:

Andre Johnson, Mario Manningham, Kevin Walter, Rookie/Lestar Jean.

In the above state, they can cultivate a nice WR stable, while aiming high for the next season.
 
If the Patriots managed to get a 1st rd pick for Richard Seymour, the Texans ought to get the same value for Mario. Seymour was at same stage when Pats craftily moved on from that guy, although a player like Seymour could have made the difference today. Either way, the Patriots are an example of a team that makes tough choices to keep the team from getting stagnant. I wouldn't stop at Mario. The Stephanie Stradley poster idea is spot on. We need a superstar QB not just a guy.
 
EVOLVIST said:
The Saints being my second favorite team, since I was a kid, I follow the Saints a lot (of course, Houston teams being my faves, bar none).

The thing people are missing about Robert Meachem is two-fold.

#1.) Yes, he would be considerable upgrade over Jacoby Jones as a legit #2. The Saints have been blessed with a lot of great WRs, so Meachem gets lost in the wash a little bit. I'm with Dale, he's a #2 on most teams.

#2.) Chances are, the Saints are going to keep him, not only because they have a lot of cap room (with or without the new TV revenue), but also they'll let Devery Henderson ride out the rest of his contract, and keep the more productive Robert Meachum, due to age, etc.

I would love for the Texans to get Robert Meachem, plus at least a 2nd round rookie, and with Lestar Jean being healthy and KW, our WR corps suddenly looks deadly (for the first time).

But I don't think that's going to happen with Meachem, for the above reasons.

If the Texans really do decided to make a big splash at WR in the free-agent market, then the sexiest choice for the money and circumstances would be Mario Manningham as a legit #2.

Not only do the Giants have little cap space to play with - much like us - but also, with Victor Cruz coming on like he has, the Giants will be more likely to let Manningham walk, as opposed to the Saints and Meachem.

Otherwise, the Texans are looking at an older stop-gap WR like Reggie Wayne, until they can get some kid to really catch fire. Remember, we want to make a bid at the big show now! And our best chance would look something like this:

Andre Johnson, Mario Manningham, Kevin Walter, Rookie/Lestar Jean.

In the above state, they can cultivate a nice WR stable, while aiming high for the next season.
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Well, they better have a ton of money, because the following Saints are unrestricted free agents:

Drew Brees
M. Colston
Carl Nicks
Tracey Porter
Aubrayo Franklin
Robert Meachem

and about one dozen others. That's a lot for them to get done this off-season. Considering Meachem has yet to consistently start for them, I can't imagine he would be a higher priority for them than Colston. Clearly, the Saints will be determined to get Brees and Nicks deals done. And, they will either sign Porter to a large deal or they will need to grab another free agent corner back.
 
WolverineFan said:
Those of you that expect us to let Mario walk and use the extra money to sign 1 or 2 top FA's will be very disappointed. We are already over the cap so letting Mario walk will allow us to re-sign our FA's and give Foster a new deal. Restructure a few contracts and we will be able to sign a vet or two in FA and then sign our draft picks.

We aren't going to be landing guys like Nicks or Jackson.
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For how much this topic has been discussed in this very section of this board, it's kind of pathetic that people say stuff like this without sourcing it.
 
cbs1507 said:
"IF" Mario walks then...

Plan A will not happen regardless if the Saints sign him or not. He is ideal for a downhill running team not a zone blocking team like the Texans. There's no point in investing around $8 million for a high profile OG, unless we plan on changing systems.

He is ideal for any scheme. If Charles Spencer is draftable for this scheme Nicks definatly could fit.

Plan B I think Cody did a nice job. He made around $12 million, which is the price for a top NT. He would be no cheaper than Mario. If they are interested in a larger NT they will address it in the draft.

Cody did do a nice job. I don't want nice for our defense. I want bad asses and that is exactly what Soliai is. Put him in the middle and everyone on the front seven gets multiple one on one opportunities every game. "IF" Mario did leave this could be the player and position that could make the biggest difference for this team. Even more so than WR. He really should be plan A.
Of course he could franchised but until he is he's fair discussion. Oh and if we CAN afford Mario at that price and he goes elsewhere anyway, why not give the money to someone that can make just as big an impact? Maybe bigger!


Plan C He is young. He is 6-8 300 freakish size and very disruptive and perfect as a 3-4 DE. Has been very productive over the past to year. Younger Mario Williams? I don't think so. He is 25. Mario is 26. Not much age difference. He is primarily a 3-4 DE. Mario played 3-4 OLB, begin his career as a 4-3 DE, and I believe Wade had plans on using him as a 3-4 DE to share the field with Barwin and Reed. So I think Williams is a more versatile player. Nevertheless, I don't think the Cardinals will let someone as talented as Campbell walk. Plus we have JJ Watt and Antonio Smith both have had solid seasons and both demand the occasional double team which frees up our edge rushers. So I think we're fine in that category (especially "IF" we resign Williams).

Agree but if Mario "doesn't" resign, Smith is 30 and commanding a rather large salary nest season if I heard right.

Plan D Wouldn't that be nice...too bad it's not happening. If we go after a FA WR it should be after a lesser name like Pierre Garcon, Robert Meachem, or my favorite Laurent Robinson. Otherwise, we will most likely address WR in the draft.

You never know!

Plan E I think we're fine with Antonio and JJ.

I think you need to reed plan E again.

"IF" Mario walks, then we will most likely try to address depth in the draft instead of FA. But we would be deep WITH Mario, so I hope we can sign him to a long term deal.
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Every year we add a little depth in FA. Last year we went after needs. Now that we are really actually close who knows what will do. I can tell you one thing, the Texans brass doesn't care what we all think they should do. Every year there are surprises. So don't be surprised when something you think is absolutely going to happen doesn't. Something like we draft another DE in the first round indtead of a WR, even though the one everyone wants is there for the taking.
 
how about plan Manning


Getting Peyton manning and Reggie Wayne and keeping Andre johnson
 
Dutchrudder said:
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For how much this topic has been discussed in this very section of this board, it's kind of pathetic that people say stuff like this without sourcing it.
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It's been sourced several times that the Texans are right up against the cap. Does it have to be sourced every time it's mentioned?
 
Dutchrudder said:
For how much this topic has been discussed in this very section of this board, it's kind of pathetic that people say stuff like this without sourcing it.
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Add to that people posting OLB tag figures and claiming they should franchise him :spit:
 
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