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AJ:Can the Texans afford Mario Williams and Arian Foster?
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Sign 'em and trade him. Whatever we sign him to, could bring multiple future picks. I'd be willing to explore that possibility as opposed to just letting him walk.
*Disclaimer*
I like Mario and would love for him to have played his entire career here in Houston, but at the end of the day, you have to look at the overall value. It's just not there unless you sign him and get something in return... Something substantial!!
*Disclaimer*
I like Mario and would love for him to have played his entire career here in Houston, but at the end of the day, you have to look at the overall value. It's just not there unless you sign him and get something in return... Something substantial!!
Imatexanfan
Hall of Fame
^^^What he said
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Its gonna be really difficult to use the franchise tag to trade MW .... Probably the ideal scenario if you are the Texans but considering all the logistics of it , difficult to execute.
Rick Smith is really gonna earn his pay this offseason and next - Next seasons FA group is much more larger than this years tho maybe not quite so high profile.
The two most likely scenario's are he walks or the Texans sign MW to a contract thats backloaded to the 2013 & 14 seasons as the salary cap should rise significantly in those years , in the neighborhood of $180m , possibly more.
Either way , he wont count near as much against the cap next season as he did this past one - His cap number was about $17m. If they can get him in the $10-12m range they still have money left to re-up Foster , Briesel , Dreessen and Myers. They just wont have anything left to make outside FA moves. Other positions will have to be upgraded thru the draft.
There are a few cost cutting moves I expect to see - Leinart & J.Jones cut as cap casualties and Demeco re-structuring his deal as he will count ~$8.5m on the cap. Thats just too much.
I personally think this is a sad, sad attempt at stopping the Mario (or the Pay Arian) threads from growing.
I'm still going to post in the other threads...... heck, I'll probably just copy, paste, & link my posts from the other threads.
I'm still going to post in the other threads...... heck, I'll probably just copy, paste, & link my posts from the other threads.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Rip it off... fast... like one would a band aid. Bye Mario.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
In addition to posing a potential problem, this also presents an opportunity. If the Texans can renew any of next years expiring contracts this off season, it could not only secure the players in question, but also create cap room for 2012 by structuring those renewals to move money to 2013, or even later when the cap is expected to grow significantly.
ThaShark316
#28
Gotta find a way to keep Mario, man.
Best way to do that? Backload the holy **** out of his deal and hope he's down with it. Reed is a bad ass OLB, but he ain't Mario, fam.
Best way to do that? Backload the holy **** out of his deal and hope he's down with it. Reed is a bad ass OLB, but he ain't Mario, fam.
Lady.Gaga.3000
Waterboy
Sign him to a big deal, back loaded later. Regardless of how he performs in 2012, trade him for profit!
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
As I peel back the onion while researching the "new" salary cap variables (CBA and other sites), it appears that the following variables need to be considered and addressed, with these discussions, in order to delineate cap availability for the near and long term:
- Salary Cap Carryover
- Incremental Cap due to TV rights
http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf
There is much uncertainty due to our actual cap number, just like other teams as they wrap up the current fiscal year. Moreover, dealing with our own free agents, and the hard decisions that are to pass, are not local to the Texans, other teams have difficult decisions as well. The aggregate of those decisions is the market, which is undetermined at this point.
Of course, we all have our favorites and the narratives that we conjure up can be biased in favor of the outcomes that we would like to see. This is natural as die hard fans. In the interim, as we and the collective front offices corral clarity in the coming weeks and months there will be plenty of hyperbole and innuendo which will fuel the debate.
- Salary Cap Carryover
- Amounts Borrowed from Future Caps
- Base Salary Escalators, such as Likely to be Earned Incentives (team and individual escalators) pages 102-104 of the CBA
- Incremental Cap due to TV rights
http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf
There is much uncertainty due to our actual cap number, just like other teams as they wrap up the current fiscal year. Moreover, dealing with our own free agents, and the hard decisions that are to pass, are not local to the Texans, other teams have difficult decisions as well. The aggregate of those decisions is the market, which is undetermined at this point.
Of course, we all have our favorites and the narratives that we conjure up can be biased in favor of the outcomes that we would like to see. This is natural as die hard fans. In the interim, as we and the collective front offices corral clarity in the coming weeks and months there will be plenty of hyperbole and innuendo which will fuel the debate.
Reading that game me a headache .... Rick has his work cut out for him.
Sure it presents an opportunity .... But with this teams history of not renewing deals before they expire .... I find it hard to believe they would go in that direction.
As I see it, Foster is a much greater need than Mario, if we can keep both I'm all for it (and i really want to see what Mario can do with this system for a full year), but if only one can stay, it's definitely Arian.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
In AJ's article
Ravens - Ngata, Suggs, Reed, Foxworth, Flacco, Gurode = ~$64m and have Ray Rice as a UFA
Steelers - Roethlisberger, Harrison, Timmons, Taylor, Hampton, Woodley = ~$54m
Patriots - Brady, Wilfork, Light, Mankins, Ochocinco, Mayo = ~$46m
Broncos - Bailey, Dumervil, Dawkins, Warren, Williams, Tebow = ~$53m
This is simply an exercise to chip away at the 2012 "doomsday" scenario of six players being X percentage of cap. As one can easily see it is not local to the Texans, but representative of the power structure in the AFC. However, this exercise still does not account for 2013 and beyond cap implications, which is the crux of the conversation.
Given that Sportrac has done a great job of SEO and attempting to be the go to source for cap discussions, it only makes sense to use it as the baseline for these discussions without knowing actual cap implications. With that said, let's take a look at other top AFC teams and how their top six players will affect their cap in 2012, according to Sportrac.
Ravens - Ngata, Suggs, Reed, Foxworth, Flacco, Gurode = ~$64m and have Ray Rice as a UFA
Steelers - Roethlisberger, Harrison, Timmons, Taylor, Hampton, Woodley = ~$54m
Patriots - Brady, Wilfork, Light, Mankins, Ochocinco, Mayo = ~$46m
Broncos - Bailey, Dumervil, Dawkins, Warren, Williams, Tebow = ~$53m
This is simply an exercise to chip away at the 2012 "doomsday" scenario of six players being X percentage of cap. As one can easily see it is not local to the Texans, but representative of the power structure in the AFC. However, this exercise still does not account for 2013 and beyond cap implications, which is the crux of the conversation.
Good post - MSR.
Blake
MMQB
Must spread rep. Great job!
TheCD
Rookie
Great stuff, but I think you forgot to add that Peyton has to be taking up about 75% of their cap. It's the only explanation for how bad they are...
noxiousdog
Rookie
It was good to see 16.6 million used in that article. I'm constantly hearing that number and 22.
Something else that was brought up elsewhere is that Mario had a hell of a number this year (17m - unconfirmed), so a franchising would actually drop it.
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk
Something else that was brought up elsewhere is that Mario had a hell of a number this year (17m - unconfirmed), so a franchising would actually drop it.
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
It's alright if the Texans simply slap the franchise tag on Mario Williams. We can talk about re-signing Mario Williams long-term next year. After the Texans win Super Bowl 47 and he produces a great 16-game season and playoff performance.
He's coming off a disappointing, season-ending injury, and even he realizes he shouldn't be trying to milk every penny out of this franchise right now. The franchise tag will make him the richest defensive player in the NFL as it stands, set to make as high as a $22 million base salary for 2012.
He's coming off a disappointing, season-ending injury, and even he realizes he shouldn't be trying to milk every penny out of this franchise right now. The franchise tag will make him the richest defensive player in the NFL as it stands, set to make as high as a $22 million base salary for 2012.
Franchising MW would NOT drop his cap number but would in fact push it to $23m.
Its the greater value of the following -
The average of the top five salaries at the position of the player in question.
Or
100%+20% of the previous years salary.
In this case the greater value would be 100%+20% of the previous years salary as it is considerably more than the top five OLB's average salary.
I think teams will attempt to avoid this in the future by not backloading the final year.
I dont think they can afford that much when they have Foster , Dreesen , Myers and Briesel to deal with not to mention any outside FA's thye may want to bring in.
They have to get his cap number down in the 10m range for the coming year at most.
I thought that rule was for the older CBA and now it's going to a more formulated plan. The new way of formulating the franchise tag is based on other factors and a formula to account for it.
"In the past, a franchise tag was derived from averaging the top five salaries at a particular position from the previous season. The new formula is much more complicated and is formed by determining the franchise tags at that position over the last five years as a percentage of the overall cap figure in each of those five years."
Overall, I would picture that making tags a bit cheaper than we initially projected.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8247df3a/article/franchisetag-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012
From your link -
If they can franchise MW for that number ... I'd do it in a heartbeat. Im just not so sure thats an accurate number.
We'll have to wait and see because there is a lot of new stuff in this CBA .... Maybe Kaiser Toro or someone else can find / figure the numbers.
Either way , good find.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
And that's just a short summary. Actual details are for accountants and shyster lawyers.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Linebacker: $8.8 million (down from $10.1 million in 2011, $9.7 million in 2010); Stephen Tulloch
I wonder if using these figures would make a four year, $46M deal. 2012 $10M, 2013 $11M, 2014 $15M, 2015 $10M workable with half of each year guaranteed? The new contract has incentives to hold down the final year backloading.
The new CBA stipulates for a franchise tag that the average of the top paid at the position for the last few seasons or 120% of the salary of the last year of the expired contract, whichever is greater and he made like $14 million last year.
badboy
Hall of Fame
This is a positional change for you, correct?
badboy
Hall of Fame
Yes the 20% is in the new CBA and has been posted repeated on this MB. If Mario salary based 2011 was 14. He will get that + 20 %. Averages of positional players has nothing to do with Mario.
Not trying to paint a 'doomsday' scenario (your words). But the point is given the Texans 2013 FA situation, tying up that much in Arian and Mario could be very cap unhealthy down the line. The teams you list have similar issues as the Texans. Chip away.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
badboy
Hall of Fame
AJ would you not agree that another year would possibly eliminate other contracts such as the log jam we now have at corner? Wade Smith could also be gone or even (spank me for saying) Matt Schaub? He is signed thru 2012 as you know and we could draft QB in first 2013 like Tyler Bray Tennessee or Tyler Wilson Arkansas?
If Foster & Williams are sign smartly, it does not have to lead to Doomsday in 2013 especially with TV deal coming on that year.
rush2112mn
Rookie
Foster is a restricted free agent....so all they have to do is match whoever is offering him a contract.
Defensive Ends/Linebackers last a longer time in the NFL than do Running Backs......
I think we should make a offer to Mario William. I do not think we should franchise him.....that would be 22 million a year I think.
He has said he wants to play here....I bet he does seeing how Wade Phillips has turned this defense around and seeing the type of results the defense has done under Phillips.....
The question Mario has to ask himself.....Does he want to start over somewhere else....or stay here when everything is just getting real good.
Defensive Ends/Linebackers last a longer time in the NFL than do Running Backs......
I think we should make a offer to Mario William. I do not think we should franchise him.....that would be 22 million a year I think.
He has said he wants to play here....I bet he does seeing how Wade Phillips has turned this defense around and seeing the type of results the defense has done under Phillips.....
The question Mario has to ask himself.....Does he want to start over somewhere else....or stay here when everything is just getting real good.
Maddict5
Hall of Fame
blah blah blah... this is the same as mcclain's 'they cant afford nnamdi' bs as last yr. he'll quickly flop position on this too shortly before we sign ALL our important FA's (imo dreessen and allen are the most likely starters/players that will leave.. and ever they're not likely)and this will be a big non story used by the chron and others to fill columns during jan & feb
so to answer the q- yes we will sign them both & others and im not worried that they wont in the slightest
so to answer the q- yes we will sign them both & others and im not worried that they wont in the slightest
badboy
Hall of Fame
Add two more non-guaranteed years totaling $24m and slam some of your totl dollars into upfront bonus say $25m therefore allowing each base year to be reduced and I think Agent agrees.
drs23
Veteran
I can see Joel being a cap casualty. Don't advocate that but we've got #88 on the payroll for a lot less and he plays D too!
Joel was a FA when we got him. I doubt there are many teams that are going to be drooling over Dressen. Chances are he'll be ours on the cheap.
I think both Arian & Mario are going to get big deals, with healthy signing bonuses, low cap numbers for 2012, that will balloon in 2013 & beyond.
Myers will probably get a deal structured similarly, but not a "huge" deal. Brisiel will get a yeoman's contract, but he'll be taken care of.
Dressen will get a modest deal & we'll probably lose Jason Allen.
Well if he doesn't cost too much we could give him an exception contract. I read somewhere that this year teams get 3 $1.5 million exceptions (3 contracts worth $1.5 million each that won't count against the cap). I'll post the link when I find it.
EDIT: Bingo...
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6790759/what-new-nfl-cba-means-football-terms
I'm thinking we'll lose him because he played a lot, teams watched him, & he's played pretty well. I can see him as a #2 CB on many teams. CBs are a hot commodity & he may be one of the top CBs in this FA class.
He'll probably get an offer we can't match.
Now if you had included Jones getting cut, I'd be happy with this post.
Not really...
Cortland Finnegan
Brent Grimes
Brandon Carr
Carlos Rodgers
Off the top of my head.
He may get an offer we can't match, but there are many more CBs that actually started that will command more $ than Allen IMO.
Edit: Here a list of FA CBs
http://www.footballsfuture.com/2012/fa/db.html
Ooh, didn't realize there were so many. I doubt Grimes, Carr, or Rodgers will hit FA.... Still, a lot of names on that list (even the "other notables" list) that may get more attention.
We may be able to keep him.