Special Teams Discussion

OK, so we've had Joe Marciano here since the beginning, and I know we all have sympathy for his family situation, but I'm of the opinion that this has been his worst season of coaching. The return game never did anything, even when he had his returners of choice back there. And it would appear from today's game that he never prepared another returner to step up in the event that Jacoby Jones became unavailable. I don't know if it falls on Kubiak that Jacoby Jones kept getting put back out there or if that's on Marciano. I do know that Kubiak could have benched Jacoby and did not. We saw Jones on the field as a WR at various points as well.

Above and beyond all this, actually, did we watch a single game this season without a kick return being called back for a block in the back? If it's a time or two, that's completely on the players. We saw that with Manning getting JoJo's INT return called back. But every single game, I think we watched one or more kick returns called back due to that penalty. At some point, you have to look past the players, I think.

Anyway, your thoughts?

Special teams are always critical. Field position and turnovers are probably the two most important things a team has to take care of in a football game.

We MUST find a sure-fire MONSTER for punting, and we need somebody to return the ball more than -4 yards.

If we are just talking about this game. The punt return team was'nt up to par.(aka-Jacoby Jones). I thought the kickoff team played well. Our coverage teams played pretty well today too. Did they even try and return a punt today?

We did have our punter put on IR this year. That did'nt help.

I thought our defense this year was great. Our special teams were average and our offense was below average(after schaub went down).

TheMatrix31 said:

Special teams are always critical. Field position and turnovers are probably the two most important things a team has to take care of in a football game.

We MUST find a sure-fire MONSTER for punting, and we need somebody to return the ball more than -4 yards.

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I think Hartmann is the answer at punter, unless he can't return from injury. They definitely need a returner or two. Personally, I'd like to see the Texans draft Patrick Edwards late (or sign him as UDFA). He's a diminutive receiver, but he has good hands, can run routes, is speedy and shifty, can return kicks, and could fill the 5th or 6th WR spot on this team.

I'm searching right now to try and find out how many block in the back penalties the Texans had relative to other teams. That has to stop, though.

utahmark said:

If we are just talking about this game.

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I'm not talking about just this game. Jacoby Jones averaged 10.6 yards per return on 49 returns in the regular season. That's no better than mediocre. Danieal Manning averaged 27.4 yards per return on only 13 returns, which is better than average, I think. Sherric McManis kicked in another 10 returns at 20.5 yards per return. Neither had a TD. The greatest part about this stat is the fact that the team only had 23 kickoff returns for the season. Aside from the obvious touchback situation that every team had to deal with, it's another indicator of just how good the defense was. Aside from the block in the back penalties, kickoff returns are only a concern insofar as Manning's health is.

The block in the back penalties called back several kicks, though.

special teams has been a weak spot for years. joe's someone that we all love and want to succeed, especially here in houston, but we get worse every season. with the abundance of tightends, linebackers, and safeties, we gave joe every asset possible short of daniel manning. our blocking is prehistoric despite rule changes each season, and we have zero creativity in any facet of special teams.

that's not even touching on the kicking side, which while our rookie was outstanding, we have been incredibly bad diagnosing and correcting mistakes and missteps from our kickers and punters. if a drunk layman like me (though i did kick for a short while) is seeing the faults and our staff isnt, there's a problem. much like our "old team", players regress each season ... and it's time to look at a change in my opinion.

Coverage took a big step forward this season. The return game stayed 2 steps back just like last season

eriadoc said:

OK, so we've had Joe Marciano here since the beginning, and I know we all have sympathy for his family situation, but I'm of the opinion that this has been his worst season of coaching. The return game never did anything, even when he had his returners of choice back there. And it would appear from today's game that he never prepared another returner to step up in the event that Jacoby Jones became unavailable. I don't know if it falls on Kubiak that Jacoby Jones kept getting put back out there or if that's on Marciano. I do know that Kubiak could have benched Jacoby and did not. We saw Jones on the field as a WR at various points as well.

Above and beyond all this, actually, did we watch a single game this season without a kick return being called back for a block in the back? If it's a time or two, that's completely on the players. We saw that with Manning getting JoJo's INT return called back. But every single game, I think we watched one or more kick returns called back due to that penalty. At some point, you have to look past the players, I think.

Anyway, your thoughts?

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I actually think special teams were better this year than last - punt and kickoff coverage mostly. I would guess that our opponent's average starting field position was considerably better (for us) than last year, and while defense was a part of that, so was kick coverage.

But I was hoping last year would be his last year, and in spite of the improvement, I'm still hoping this year will be his last year.

Last season was his "worst season of coaching" (not this season..this season has been one of his best), if you want to call it that. Players make plays, not coaches and when your team is making all of the picks they aren't drafting for special teams...

Was it coach Marciano's fault that this FO felt compelled to draft Jacoby Jones and thought he was the answer and drafted him in the 3rd round? Was it coach Marciano's fault that they let their KO return teams suffer by pulling Manning from returning kicks? Is it coach Marciano" fault that this team feels compelled to use retread kickers/punters and refuse to draft ANYBODY to play on that portion of the team?

No it's not. And coach Marciano still has one of the best special team units as far as big return stats go (ask yourself this...how many kicks have been returned against his unit since he's been here?). He's done a good job and isn't going anywhere.. The only person who does need to move on is Jacoby Jones and instead of cutting off you nose..yada yada yada.

Get rid of the turd who will and always play like crap despite the STs coach. The problems we had on STs today WERN'T DUE TO COACHING ISSUES.

Time for new ST Coach and Punt Returner

srrono said:

Time for new ST Coach and Punt Returner

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There's nothing wrong with the STs coach. :mariopalm:

I say we should find a speedy punter with a semi decent throwing arm. I know punters are for punting, but with our offense in a critical game ending decision, I think we could pull off some great fakes lol (fake punt runs and passes).

or am i just dreaming?

as for neil rackers, hes a solid kicker. i like him a lot better than when we had brown. and for punt returner, definitely get rid of jacoby. we need to draft a speedy wr and use him, or atleast use like bryant johnson

Throughout this thread, I am the only one to talk about the block in the back penalties. Am I the only one that is aggravated as hell by this? I hate penalties and when the same ones keep cropping up week after week after week, it's supper annoying.

I think we need a new returner, both KR and PR, leave Manning to play defense only and cut Jones. our kick coverage was AMAZING, no reason to get rid of Marciano

eriadoc said:

Anyway, your thoughts?

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I agree with your assesment overall.... as far as the return game.... I don't blame the returner as much as most. The blocking is pitiful. The blocks in the back are because the guys covering the gunners can't stay in front of them. & if they can't do that, you don't have a chance to return anything.

eriadoc said:

Throughout this thread, I am the only one to talk about the block in the back penalties. Am I the only one that is aggravated as hell by this? I hate penalties and when the same ones keep cropping up week after week after week, it's supper annoying.

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List the amount of block in the back penalties we've had...I guarantee you it's below the league average. You don't elevate a complete dumbass to "alternate pro bowl" status :mariopalm: (oh Jacoby) by negating his kick returns.

Houston doesn't have a "block in the back" problem. They have a "knucklehead" problem and we've ALL been pointing out that problem for years. Jacoby needs to buy a one way ticket to Podunk La.

thunderkyss said:

I agree with your assessment overall.... as far as the return game.... I don't blame the returner as much as most. The blocking is pitiful. The blocks in the back are because the guys covering the gunners can't stay in front of them. & if they can't do that, you don't have a chance to return anything.

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Where is this "block in the back" problem coming from? It hasn't been a issue at all, but since y'all bring it up does anybody know where we can get stats of if they even keep league wide stats on this?

Coach Joe allowed J.J. Moses to have a career in this league...he allowed Mathis to be the best KO returner in the league and have a pro bowl year... he even allowed the dumbass formally know as a Houston Texan Jacoby Jones to be a pro bowl alternate. He's had one of the best ST coverage teams in the league since he's been here.

Sorry, but this thread is off the mark. Our problem is not a coaching issue, it's a personnel problem. We need a smarter player, not another coach.

Carr Bombed said:

Where is this "block in the back" problem coming from? It hasn't been a issue at all, but since y'all bring it up does anybody know where we can get stats of if they even keep league wide stats on this?'

Coach Joe allowed J.J. Moses to have a career in this league...he allowed Mathis to be the best KO returner in the league and have a pro bowl year... he even allowed the dumbass formally know as a Houston Texan Jacoby Jones to be a pro bowl alternate. He's had one of the best ST coverage teams in the league since he's been here.

Sorry, but this thread is off the mark. Our problem is not a coaching issue, it's a personnel problem. We need a smarter player, not another coach.

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granted i'm obviously more focused on the texans, but from the games i've watched this season - the texans are leading the league about 3 to 1 in terms of special teams penalties for holding and blocks in the back. likewise i would like to find the stats to see where perception ranks towards reality.

the second point misses completely. we use a fair amount of starters on special teams and players who are true special teamers such as braman and mcmannis. the talent, especially this season, has been the best joe has had in years, but he hasnt changed. as a motivator he's second to none, the next bill cowher, but as a coordinator he's simply not doing his job - the schemes, execution, teaching, and adjustments are all lacking. the only reason we are even respectable this season is talent alone.

i love coach joe, i hope he's forever a texan ... however, he was good but simply hasnt kept up. blocked kicks? big returns? blocking schemes? fakes? coverages? DISCIPLINE????

I totally, totally would've been fine with lining up 11 and selling out to block a kick. Let the ball fall where it may, at least there's no chance of that no-handed clown muffing another one. So he returned a couple kicks in games that didn't matter. Whoopy. They need to find a guy to replace him returning kicks.

Scooter said:

granted I'm obviously more focused on the Texans, but from the games I've watched this season - the Texans are leading the league about 3 to 1 in terms of special teams penalties for holding and blocks in the back. likewise i would like to find the stats to see where perception ranks towards reality.

the second point misses completely. we use a fair amount of starters on special teams and players who are true special teamers such as Braman and Mcmannis. the talent, especially this season, has been the best Joe has had in years, but he hasn't changed. as a motivator he's second to none, the next bill cowher, but as a coordinator he's simply not doing his job - the schemes, execution, teaching, and adjustments are all lacking. the only reason we are even respectable this season is talent alone.

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So you don't know the stats, but are going to claim their "holding penalties" are at a rate that is 3 to 1. Okay.

Brian Braman wasn't kept on this roster due to special teams play.. He was kept on this team because he flashed on defense and looked like a player worth keeping. In order to justify his spot he's had to play on special teams and has turned into one of our best players (yep, coaching has nothing to do with that).

Same thing with McMannis who you also brought up. All offseason (what offseason this team actually had) and during the preseason the only thing we heard was how this kid was kicking ass in the nickle, was going to be our nickle corner. The decision to keep him on the team wasn't strictly a ST decision.

When judging a ST coach you have to keep in mind that the ST coach literally can only vouch for maybe two players during the draft....and the team does NOT draft for STs. Braman was not added to be a great STs player and neither was Molden when he was added either...(another player who coach Joe turned into a STs ace when he was healthy), Teams draft for backup and they don't give the STs coach hardly any consideration (if they did Hartmann would've been actually drafted and Turk would've been out of a job a LONG time ago)

ST coaches have to deal with the scrap that's left over and while y'all are busy pulling up those penalty stats...please pull up the defensive kick return stats, which Houston has been a league leader at since coach Marciano has been here. We don't have kicks returned against us plain and simple and that's the one area that you can consistently judge a ST coach in.

As far as returners... J.J. Moses was able to make a living here (that says more about Coach Marciano than it does J.J. Moses), Jerome Mathis was a probowler, and now Jacoby "I suck at life" Jones was a pro bowl alternate... Not to mention the success that Manning had returning kicks before he was pulled off of it.

Sorry, but it's completely asinine to call out our STs coach when he doesn't even control what level of crap (jones) ends up on his squad and unlike even Igor, he can't even get Jacoby a abinormal brain.


Our problem on STs doesn't have crap to do with the coaching and it isn't a coaching issue...we need better players. We had a stud P before he went down so I'll let Turk slide, but we need a damn kicker and not a retread either. We also need a kick returner next season. Marciano whiffed on holiday, but I'm not going to hold his decision to draft a world class athlete against him.

drunk edit.

OK, if my count is right, the Texans had six illegal block in the back penalties in the final six games of the season. The game logs report it as illegal block above the waist. There was another in each of the playoff games. So that's EIGHT block in the back penalties in eight games. You don't see that as a problem? That's to say nothing of the various other kick and punt penalties that, while not repeated enough to be considered a trend, still add up.

It does seem like they commit a lot of block-in-the-back penalties, but then it always seems that way with any team you root for.

So yeah ... bump from January.

Let's assume our offense and defense right the ship after this performance. They're too good not to, IMO. But if we're consistently giving the other team good field position while not even getting back to the 20 on our returns, then we're in for a world of hurt.

TexanSam said:

Let's assume our offense and defense right the ship after this performance. They're too good not to, IMO. But if we're consistently giving the other team good field position while not even getting back to the 20 on our returns, then we're in for a world of hurt.

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It's no secret that our KO coverage sucks. Boot it out of the endzone. The new rules allow us to "fix" that without doing anything. He just need SOMEONE on this damn roster to kick it into the stands.

KR...take a damn knee already. 20 yard line is better than the 10.

Punts...yeah we're screwed there. Fair catch and hope for the best.

On the bright side, we are BEASTS at kicking FGs. Always have been under Kubiak.