Perspective on the loss

kiwitexansfan · Dec 23, 2011

Can you give me some?

In my mind right now, this is the second worse loss in Texans history.

The worst being the loss to the Browns that meant our 7-8 team finished 7-9 instead of 8-8 and our first not losing season, in what I want to say was 2005.

Was it this bad or am I still feeling overly emotional?

Lucky · Dec 23, 2011

kiwitexansfan said:
Was it this bad or am I still feeling overly emotional?

Overly emotional. It's entirely possible that this game will have no effect of the seeding. The Texans needed help to get a bye, as it was. They are currently the #3 seed, and would have likely been the #3 seed had they won the game. I'm more upset with the trend to rein in Yates than the actual result. How is that helping the team prepare for the playoffs?

kiwitexansfan · Dec 23, 2011

Lucky said:
Overly emotional. I'm more upset with the trend to rein in Yates than the actual result. How is that helping the team prepare for the playoffs?

Thanks.

Not sure we had much option with the way the OLine was getting pwned.

Does our offense even feature max protect?

thunderkyss · Dec 23, 2011

Lucky said:
Overly emotional. It's entirely possible that this game will have no effect of the seeding. The Texans needed help to get a bye, as it was. They are currently the #3 seed, and would have likely been the #3 seed had they won the game. I'm more upset with the trend to rein in Yates than the actual result. How is that helping the team prepare for the playoffs?

It's likely that T.J. is going to find himself in a lot of bad situations when we get to the play-offs. Most of us are fearing that he won't perform well in those situations.

Maybe we're putting Tj in a lot of bad situations to prepare him for the play-offs.

utahmark · Dec 23, 2011

Lucky said:
Overly emotional. It's entirely possible that this game will have no effect of the seeding. The Texans needed help to get a bye, as it was. They are currently the #3 seed, and would have likely been the #3 seed had they won the game. I'm more upset with the trend to rein in Yates than the actual result. How is that helping the team prepare for the playoffs?

I think yates and the offensive line reined theirselfs in more than anything. pass plays were called but Yates did'nt have much time. When he did have time he chose to dump the ball off rather than throw down field. 15 secs left in the game and he throws a 3 yard pass to the running back, he was just scared to make something happen.

80tothezone · Dec 23, 2011

it just sucked man we played like garbage. I mean we are now the #3seed in the arc the young men over at Kirby have done well this yr but it looks like injuries have finally caught up to us. I think we are done this yr and finish 10-7 with a loss in the playoffs. Not much to do about that but get healthy. We have need ridiculously injured this yr. I would say you throw the snake in there and see if he has maybe or 3more games left in the tank otherwise we done. That is not a slight on TJ, but the kid is nit getting it done.

Lucky · Dec 23, 2011

kiwitexansfan said:
Thanks.

Not sure we had much option with the way the OLine was getting pwned.

Does our offense even feature max protect?

Everything was great when they got Yates outside the pocket. Why change that? The 3 step drops didn't help either, with the safties sitting down on the run and the short routes. Just a bad game plan by the offensive coaches. And not adjusting the game plan was even worse.

thunderkyss · Dec 23, 2011

utahmark said:
I think yates and the offensive line reined theirselfs in more than anything. pass plays were called but Yates did'nt have much time. When he did have time he chose to dump the ball off rather than throw down field. 15 secs left in the game and he throws a 3 yard pass to the running back, he was just scared to make something happen.

There were a couple of three step drops where Tj was drilled on.

3 step drops. One, he pulled the ball back down. But the other two...... brutally bad play by Winston... How you going to give up the holding penalty & the sack?

Corrosion · Dec 23, 2011

Lucky said:
Overly emotional. It's entirely possible that this game will have no effect of the seeding. The Texans needed help to get a bye, as it was. They are currently the #3 seed, and would have likely been the #3 seed had they won the game. I'm more upset with the trend to rein in Yates than the actual result. How is that helping the team prepare for the playoffs?

He missed several reads last night .... Im not so sure its Kubiak and Dennsion reining him in as it is Yates being a rookie 5th round pick and playing like it.

Converting only 1 of 10 on 3rd down is a telling statistic. Even on some of his completions he missed guy's down the field for what could have been larger gains. He had opportunities to make plays and didnt deliver.

They havent scored more than 20 points since Schaub went down after averaging ~26ish prior

If you would have told me that Foster would run for 158 on 23 carries and they lose .... I'd have had a hard time believing it.

EllisUnit · Dec 23, 2011

thunderkyss said:
It's likely that T.J. is going to find himself in a lot of bad situations when we get to the play-offs. Most of us are fearing that he won't perform well in those situations.

Maybe we're putting Tj in a lot of bad situations to prepare him for the play-offs.

If last game was "Preparing" him for the playoffs then :toropalm:

that would be like me preparing my kids for the real world by making them watch the wizard of ozz all the time.

Lucky · Dec 23, 2011

Corrosion said:
Converting only 1 of 10 on 3rd down is a telling statistic.

What else is telling is that the Texans only dropped back to pass on 5 of those 3rd downs. And one of those was a 3rd and 1. Laying all of the missed 3rd down conversions at Yates' feet is just inaccurate.

This is unspinnable. Kubiak went ultra-conservative. And the Texans lost. Maybe they would have still lost had they let Yates open it up a bit? I'm talking maybe 6-7 more passes, a couple of those downfield. Maybe they would have won? We'll never know. What we are pretty sure about is that a gameplan like this that can't beat the hapless Colts won't beat a playoff team.

thunderkyss · Dec 23, 2011

Lucky said:
What else is telling is that the Texans only dropped back to pass on 5 of those 3rd downs. And one of those was a 3rd and 1. Laying all of the missed 3rd down conversions at Yates' feet is just inaccurate.

This is unspinnable. Kubiak went ultra-conservative. And the Texans lost. Maybe they would have still lost had they let Yates open it up a bit? I'm talking maybe 6-7 more passes, a couple of those downfield. Maybe they would have won? We'll never know. What we are pretty sure about is that a gameplan like this that can't beat the hapless Colts won't beat a playoff team.

6.9 ypc........

Texan · Dec 23, 2011

There's no other way to describe it other than it was a bad loss. Whether we were 10 - 4 or .500 , we lost to a team that has managed 1 win before us. The team outgained us and held the ball much longer than us.

Rather than going for the jugular and the win our last possession with a touchdown, we played for running down the clock and a field goal and it bit us in the ass.

Good teams take care of business. I'm proud of the Texans but I continue to have questions about Kubiak. It would be nice before next season if we'd pick up a WR that can take pressure off of AJ and be there if AJ goes down. It has shown to be a real problem.

Hopefully we'll straighten things against the Titans and carry it on to the playoffs, but I'm not holding my breath.

Hervoyel · Dec 23, 2011

thunderkyss said:
6.9 ypc........

And stopped dead in his tracks every time the Texans threatened the red zone. Stats don't tell the whole story. They never do.

Double Barrel · Dec 23, 2011

My own take on the "worst loss" probably has to put the VY game at the top. Dagger through the heart stuff right there.

Then I'd have to put the 8 Bironas FG game in second. Another Titans game.

Not sure after that...the losing just becomes a blur...

However, I'd have to say that this is the biggest disappointment after a loss. I was a fool and believed in this team. I thought a 10 win division winner would stomp a 1 win Colts team. I never even doubted it. I should've known better...

ensign_lee · Dec 23, 2011

In the end, probably won't matter. We pretty much gave up the bye week by losing last week, so meh. And it's not as though we can fall from the 3 seed to the 4 seed.

In the grand scheme of things, this is easily one of the losses that we can most easily afford.

Think about it this way if you're still being emotional: would you rather have won this week 16 game, or our first playoff game? Or for that matter, our NEXT game in Indy (superbowl hint hint)?

Yeah, we werent' good yesterday, but oh well. I'd rather suck now than in the playoffs.

Double Barrel · Dec 23, 2011

ensign_lee said:
In the end, probably won't matter. We pretty much gave up the bye week by losing last week, so meh. And it's not as though we can fall from the 3 seed to the 4 seed.

Charlie Palilo said we could fall to the fourth seed if we lose to the Titans and the Broncos win out. I have not checked the math on it, so take it fwiw.

ObsiWan · Dec 23, 2011

Lucky said:
What else is telling is that the Texans only dropped back to pass on 5 of those 3rd downs. And one of those was a 3rd and 1. Laying all of the missed 3rd down conversions at Yates' feet is just inaccurate.

This is unspinnable. Kubiak went ultra-conservative. And the Texans lost. Maybe they would have still lost had they let Yates open it up a bit? I'm talking maybe 6-7 more passes, a couple of those downfield. Maybe they would have won? We'll never know. What we are pretty sure about is that a gameplan like this that can't beat the hapless Colts won't beat a playoff team.

Nearly every pass play has multiple routes. At least one of those routes is downfield to move the safeties back. You've watched plenty of football so I know you know this. Yates deciding not to take a chance and go deep more often is totally his decision. Neither Kubiak nor Dennison have an X-Box controller that dictates where Yates decides to go with the pass. That's on Yates. Simply put, his rookieness was showing.

Now if you want to say that the kid didn't have time to let a deep route fully develop because Winston was getting owned... I'm all in on that.

Someone posted in an early Yates thread his draft worthiness breakdown. One of the criticisms was that Yates is streaky. If he get's hot, he has the arm to put up big numbers. But if things go bad early, he sometimes can't shake it off and bounce back. I wish I could find that post....

Corrosion · Dec 23, 2011

Lucky said:
What else is telling is that the Texans only dropped back to pass on 5 of those 3rd downs. And one of those was a 3rd and 1. Laying all of the missed 3rd down conversions at Yates' feet is just inaccurate.

This is unspinnable. Kubiak went ultra-conservative. And the Texans lost. Maybe they would have still lost had they let Yates open it up a bit? I'm talking maybe 6-7 more passes, a couple of those downfield. Maybe they would have won? We'll never know. What we are pretty sure about is that a gameplan like this that can't beat the hapless Colts won't beat a playoff team.

Cant dispute the bold ..... that was a piss poor offensive game from the playcalling to the execution .... just piss poor.

Lucky · Dec 23, 2011

thunderkyss said:
6.9 ypc........

Oh-fer-4 3rd down conversions when running. 1.5 ypc on 3rd & 9 (average).

CretorFrigg · Dec 23, 2011

I couldn't watch the game. WHAT happened?

Lucky · Dec 23, 2011

ObsiWan said:
Nearly every pass play has multiple routes. At least one of those routes is downfield to move the safeties back. You've watched plenty of football so I know you know this. Yates deciding not to take a chance and go deep more often is totally his decision. Neither Kubiak nor Dennison have an X-Box controller that dictates where Yates decides to go with the pass. That's on Yates. Simply put, his rookieness was showing. ...

First, it's poor form to go to the "you should know this" card. Second, it's pretty darn rare to have a deep route on a 3 step drop. Other than the rollouts (which were good calls), Yates mainly was dealing from 3 steps. Which with the secondary sitting on the run and the short routes, just wasn't there. Maybe a vet checks into a deep route when seeing that defense. But at some point, Kubiak should have setup a deep pass off play action on a 1st or 2nd down.

It was a poorly called game by the Texans. Why is it such a sin to state that? It's not like I'm calling for the guys head.

Lucky · Dec 23, 2011

Double Barrel said:
Charlie Palilo said we could fall to the fourth seed if we lose to the Titans and the Broncos win out. I have not checked the math on it, so take it fwiw.

I think the Broncos win on strength of victory.

Speedy · Dec 23, 2011

Corrosion said:
Converting only 1 of 10 on 3rd down is a telling statistic.

They're 3 of 19 in the last 2 games, BTW.

SW H-TOWN · Dec 23, 2011

kiwitexansfan said:
Can you give me some?

In my mind right now, this is the second worse loss in Texans history.

The worst being the loss to the Browns that meant our 7-8 team finished 7-9 instead of 8-8 and our first not losing season, in what I want to say was 2005.

Was it this bad or am I still feeling overly emotional?

We lost to the worst team in the NFL, we have played like crap for 3 games in a row, and we are not exactly "hitting our stride" as we head into the playoffs.

ObsiWan · Dec 24, 2011

Lucky said:
First, it's poor form to go to the "you should know this" card. Second, it's pretty darn rare to have a deep route on a 3 step drop. Other than the rollouts (which were good calls), Yates mainly was dealing from 3 steps. Which with the secondary sitting on the run and the short routes, just wasn't there. Maybe a vet checks into a deep route when seeing that defense. But at some point, Kubiak should have setup a deep pass off play action on a 1st or 2nd down.

It was a poorly called game by the Texans. Why is it such a sin to state that? It's not like I'm calling for the guys head.

It's poor form to compliment you on your football knowledge? The word "should" is no where in my post. I said "I know you know this" based on the knowledgable posts I've seen from you. I make no apologies for complimenting you. Sorry if you took it differently.

Anyway... moving on.

Yates had most of his successful completions on first down throws. So Kubiak did use those throughout the game. That's when Yates hit KW for 29 yds and hit Dreessen for 16. He hit Jacoby for 17 during the first drive of the 2nd half. The fact that Foster was busting off double-digit runs made those first down throws work.

Should they have tried to strike deeper against that Tampa 2 zone? Without the All-22 view its hard to say if there were legit opportunities in the coverage to do so. Yates made the throws he thought were there.

Hard to go deep when your RT can't reliably do his job. Hard to get a rhythm to set up that play-action deep throw when we can't stay on the field due to sacks.

I wish I hadn't deleted the game film; now that I'm calm I'd like another look. But man I was really p!ssed. Maybe it'll be an NFLN replay game.

EVOLVIST · Dec 24, 2011

Lucky said:
What else is telling is that the Texans only dropped back to pass on 5 of those 3rd downs. And one of those was a 3rd and 1. Laying all of the missed 3rd down conversions at Yates' feet is just inaccurate.

This is unspinnable. Kubiak went ultra-conservative. And the Texans lost. Maybe they would have still lost had they let Yates open it up a bit? I'm talking maybe 6-7 more passes, a couple of those downfield. Maybe they would have won? We'll never know. What we are pretty sure about is that a gameplan like this that can't beat the hapless Colts won't beat a playoff team.

I picked this quote of yours because it leads into another telling fact, as well:

There's this way a quarterback takes the ball, and it's called "shotgun." Imagine that, folks. :thinking:

This is a way that you can let your QB scan the field when he has too much pressure in his grill. But guess what?

Yates took two sacks before they put in him shotgun. It was 3-8 and the play was handed off to Foster for a gain of 1. Punt, with 7:57 to go in the 2nd quarter.

The next time Yates was in shotgun was 3-14, 11:15 in the 3rd quarter w/ a 3 yard pass to Foster. Field goal by Rackers.

Yates took 2 more sacks before they put him in shotgun again at the 13:49 mark in the 4th quarter. 3-13, a 9 yard pass to Foster. Punt!

Yates did not get in shotgun again until 3:28 in the 4th quarter. A 10 yard completion to JJ. He wouldn't see shotgun again until the :14 and :07 mark when it was too late.

So that's really 4 times in the gun, in the normal course of play, and one of those being a run. TJ Yates threw the ball 3 times out of the gun w/ an offensive line that the coaches could see was not protecting him.

Compare that to 10 times in the gun against the Panthers, 24 times against Cincy. :wadepalm:

ObsiWan · Dec 24, 2011

EVOLVIST said:
I picked this quote of yours because it leads into another telling fact, as well:

There's this way a quarterback takes the ball, and it's called "shotgun." Imagine that, folks. This is a way that you can let your QB scan the field when he has too much pressure in his grill. But guess what?

Yates took two sacks before they put in him shotgun. It was 3-8 and the play was handed off to Foster for a gain of 1. Punt, with 7:57 to go in the 2nd quarter.

The next time Yates was in shotgun was 3-14, 11:15 in the 3rd quarter w/ a 3 yard pass to Foster. Field goal by Rackers.

Yates took 2 more sacks before they put him in shotgun again at the 13:49 mark in the 4th quarter. 3-13, a 9 yard pass to Foster. Punt!

Yates did not get in shotgun again until 3:28 in the 4th quarter. A 10 yard completion to JJ. He wouldn't see shotgun again until the :14 and :07 mark when it was too late.

So that's really 4 times in the gun, in the normal course of play, and one of those being a run. TJ Yates threw the ball 3 times out of the gun w/ an offensive line that the coaches could see was not protecting him.

Compare that to 10 times in the gun against the Panthers, 24 times against Cincy. :wadepalm:

You neglected to include in your breakdown that Yates had most of his success by throwing on early downs and out of the non-shotgun formation.

You also neglected to mention that we were playing from behind when we lined up in shotgun formation in both of those games.

Playing from behind, everyone in the stadium knows you're going to pass. In the Indy game, we were playing with the lead so the threat of running the ball could not be ignored. Especially the way Foster was gashing them on 1st down. The fact that the Colts had to respect Foster and were still getting to Yates on play action shows how bad the right side of the line was being owned. And the examples you sited tells me that going to the shotgun formation wasn't helping.

The more we break this down, the more it becomes apparent that it was O-line play that cost us this game more than any bad plays by Yates.

Perspective on the loss

Hall of Fame

Ride, Captain, Ride!

Hall of Fame

Just win baby!!!

markbeth

Veteran

Ride, Captain, Ride!

Just win baby!!!

Idealist

Vote RED!!!

Ride, Captain, Ride!

Just win baby!!!

Practice Squad

BUENO!

Texans Talk Admin

Rookie

Texans Talk Admin

Hall of Fame

Idealist

Ride, Captain, Ride!

Fire Rick Smith

Ride, Captain, Ride!

Ride, Captain, Ride!

Former Yeller Dweller

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Kid A

Hall of Fame