Wolf
100% Texan
Continue reading on Examiner.com Is Matt Schaub underappreciated? - Houston Houston Texans | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/is-matt-schaub-underappreciated#ixzz1eGVcb4Z4
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Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
This is the crux of the whole matter. Even Schaub's supporters know this to be true. They also know (& chose to ignore) that it is "easier" or "more likely" for a team to get to the Super Bowl (which is every teams' ultimate goal) with an elite QB than without.
We know Schaub is not & won't be, we're holding out hope against hope that Lienart "may" be....... at worse, he's a better version of Schaub in that he's younger, quicker on his feet, & makes plays outside of the pocket.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
Schaub is a slighty above-average quarterback playing in a brilliantly-
schemed offense. Average quarterbacks look good in this offense (Rosenfels,)
good quarterbacks look great in it (Plummer, Schaub.) Had Rosenfels protected
that 17-3 lead against the Colts, Schaub's career might look quite
different today. Rosenfels tried too much, and blew the game (and his
career) with that Rosencopter.
The Texans just need Leinart to be average, though he's probably more
talented physically than Schaub is. The team did not need Schaub
to do anything, because they have great play all over the offense and
defense.
Leinart just needs to be Trent Dilfer, and this team in 2011 will go far.
Is Schaub underappreciated? Nah. We don't need him to make big yards
against a prevent zone. We need him to hand the ball off to our RB's
and throw to our tight ends, with an occasional longball to Dre. Leinart
is more than capable of doing that in 2011.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I think that the majority of responses that Leinart is going to be fine are just people trying to stay positive and hoping for a positive outcome. That includes my own. I understand what we're looking at here and what the worst case scenario is. I just refuse to be negative. This season took almost ten weeks to put me in a good mood and I refuse to relinquish that good mood until facts demonstrate that I have to.
The argument is and has always been about the relative merits of Matt Schaub. He's got his defenders and his critics and those include people who grossly over-value him as well as those who ignore his contributions completely. Matt Leinart only enters the argument because of the circumstances. It's really about the fact that Schaub, no matter how good he is will never be a Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Manning. He's nearly elite, not elite. A sizable portion of the fan base will complain about anyone who isn't equal to one of those guys in the elite tier.
The argument is and has always been about the relative merits of Matt Schaub. He's got his defenders and his critics and those include people who grossly over-value him as well as those who ignore his contributions completely. Matt Leinart only enters the argument because of the circumstances. It's really about the fact that Schaub, no matter how good he is will never be a Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Manning. He's nearly elite, not elite. A sizable portion of the fan base will complain about anyone who isn't equal to one of those guys in the elite tier.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I wanted to add something. He's good. He's good enough. He could be upgraded and if you look around the league with only a handful of exceptions almost everyone takings snaps either could be upgraded or is there as a result of someone who got upgraded. No NFL team is ever "done". They add and subtract players every year. You all know this.
The thing I hear most with regard to Schaub is that he's far from the biggest issue on our team. I've always felt that way too but lately I've started to wonder.
Is the biggest issue our top ranked defense? Maybe it's our incredible running game? I know, it's our widely regarded as the best line in football offensive line. I'm being sarcastic here but the QB position isn't as far from being "fair game" for an upgrade as many of us have thought in the past. It's starting to look like we might see signs of life out of KJ and we'll get Manning back eventually. The secondary isn't in as dire need as it once was. Our WR's could use some help. That's true. We could beef up the DL. If a QB is there when we pick in the first or second round though why not look at him (assuming Leinart doesn't live up to all of our hopes)?
The thing I hear most with regard to Schaub is that he's far from the biggest issue on our team. I've always felt that way too but lately I've started to wonder.
Is the biggest issue our top ranked defense? Maybe it's our incredible running game? I know, it's our widely regarded as the best line in football offensive line. I'm being sarcastic here but the QB position isn't as far from being "fair game" for an upgrade as many of us have thought in the past. It's starting to look like we might see signs of life out of KJ and we'll get Manning back eventually. The secondary isn't in as dire need as it once was. Our WR's could use some help. That's true. We could beef up the DL. If a QB is there when we pick in the first or second round though why not look at him (assuming Leinart doesn't live up to all of our hopes)?
HJam72
Hall of Fame
This offense has been making Schaub look great all year. I keep rewatching games and not seeing him do anything that any QB couldn't do, except for that excellent fake hand-off, of course. His passes are to wide open receivers, or he throws it away. On top of that, he's consistently thrown the short ones at their feet all year. I'm not saying he's never played better (because he no doubt has), but I think he's just not been healthy and we've been winning anyway. That's why I'm hoping Leinart can get it done. I'm hoping a healthy Leinart is at least as good as Schaub with his bad shoulder, etc.
My initial reaction was VERY bad though, because I was not impressed with Leinart in the preseason. Don't remember if I saw the whole preseason though.
My initial reaction was VERY bad though, because I was not impressed with Leinart in the preseason. Don't remember if I saw the whole preseason though.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Schaub has always been far from the biggest problem, but it's now looking like he and KJ are the only ones left, if he is a problem (debatable) and if KJ still is. On KJ, I suspect the problems aren't over yet at all; he's just faced less talent.
Elite QBs are born, made, created, realized, in the play-offs. Schaub hasn't had that opportunity, through no fault of his own.
We simply don't know what Schaub would do in the play-offs, right now, that part of the argument is on hold to next year......
time to move forward. We've got to hitch our wagon to Leinart, we have no choice, & like you said, it's better to be optimistic about the situation we find ourselves in than not.
& if our pass rush relies on the blitz, we're going to see coverage problems everywhere in the secondary once we play play-off teams.
We're going to see "secondary" problems that are really LB, underneath coverage problems.
My assessment of Leinart is based on the fourth preseason game. The second teamers got to start and play the whole first half. Leinart was 13 of 16 for nearly 150 yds in one half of football. He led a pretty good two minute drill starting from our 24 (at 2:06) to the Vikings' 25; only to have Rackers blow the FG.
Leinart was 6 for 6 on that drive and overcame a penalty to keep the drive moving.
I know, I know... it was PREseason. But it's the most recent "data" we have. I believe this more than I believe 5 year old data from AZ in a totally different offense. All that to say, I like his chances with our weapons, in this offense.
That's not a problem at all. If he looks like Dilfer, we find someone to give us picks for him.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind (or anyone elses I can think of) that Schaub can't put up Dilfer type games. We're looking for someone to give us a little more.
If Leinart can not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is better than Schaub, it's time to let him go & keep looking.
It's simple. He's either better than Schaub or he's not. If Schaub wasn't hurt, we wouldn't be asking. But Schaub is hurt, it's time for Leinart to make his case.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
if leinart starts off and goes 0-3 and we are 7-6 i want to reread this thread, i think it is funny, Matt Schaub is obviously under appreciated. Sure he hasnt been asked to do much, but there will come a game when the QB is going to have to rally this team, i just hope its not in a win or go home game. If it is than i feel that Schaub will gain many more supporters.
Momma always said the grass may look greener on the other side of the fence, but once you cross the fence it usually looks like ****. And you feel pretty dumb
Momma always said the grass may look greener on the other side of the fence, but once you cross the fence it usually looks like ****. And you feel pretty dumb
Well, you go on holding onto Matt Schaub as the best thing since sliced bread.
It ain't going to help you or the Texans over the next 13 weeks.
We're going to hope against hope, that Leinart can be more than he's shown to be to date...
Funny how that coincides with the Texans going where we want them to go.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
i by no means think that Schaub is an above elite QB, but i do feel that Matt Leinart is a less than average QB. Just funny to me how some think that Leinart will come in and do better than Schaub, i hope they are right, but i fear that is very very unlikely
None of the arguments for Leinart are based on any amazing ability he has shown in the NFL so far. It's all about hope... why people can't see that, I don't know.
Whether it's Leinart under center, or Schaub. for us to get to the Super Bowl, we have to get better play from the QB than what we've seen so far.... this season.
2009 Matt Schaub would be perfect. 2010 Matt Schaub would be great. 2011 Matt Schaub... there's plenty of room for improvement.
Just about everyone who has argued for Leinart has said they'd be extremely worried if Schaub had been playing like he had in 2009 or 2010 & then this happened. 2011, he's been relegated back to game manager.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Dude in 2009 we had no running game, in 2010 we had no defense. I take 2011 matt schaub any day of the week. Cause that means we have a running game and a good defense.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
NFL Inside the Numbers
Folks at stats looked at most clutch QBs. Schaub comes in at 5th this year. FWIW.
Interestingly same link says Texans D is by far the best in the league against the play action pass. /no surprise given who they've practiced against.
Bengals worst against play action. File that away in your brain pan.
Folks at stats looked at most clutch QBs. Schaub comes in at 5th this year. FWIW.
Interestingly same link says Texans D is by far the best in the league against the play action pass. /no surprise given who they've practiced against.
Bengals worst against play action. File that away in your brain pan.
I'd like for that play-making Matt Schaub to be on the team with that running game.
I'm talking about instead of throwing the ball away on third down, extending the play & making something happen. Stay on the field & score.
Doesn't matter that we don't "need" him to do it, that's not stopping Aaron Rodgers...
I'm talking about staying on the field vs New Orleans & not letting Drew Brees score twice to win the game.
I'm talking about winning the game at home vs Oakland.
I'm talking about being 9-1 right now with a clear lead in the AFC.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Man we are 7-3. That is somewhere we have never been, i will take what schaub has done so far this season.
So will I. But if another QB has to take snaps, I'll hope he plays as well or better.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well remember a few weeks ago half of this board wanted him out of here, so yeah I'd definitely say he's under appreciated. People didn't want to take notice at all the last two seasons at how close he kept us in so many games where our defense was atrocious. I think Matt can be clutch, but I just don't think you can expect him to be all of the time like you can with Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Ben, and Manning. He has had some clutch type drives though. It's like I kept saying when everyone wanted him sent packing, Schaub is a top 10 QB and that's not to shabby when you have 32 teams in the NFL. I'll take a top 10 guy any day of the week. A lot of people forget what it was like when we had Carr around here.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Notice that Houston is #1 with results of 1 TD and 4 Ints?
PapaL
Loose Screw
Truer words have not been spoken.
On the bright side, we have the coolest QB in the league under center now. #Fact
80tothezone
Veteran
of course u pick a qb if one is available, right now the Texans are at the point where we are Taking the best player available at whatever draft pick we get. If it is a Qb then u draft him and sit him behind schaub and hope he develops into a person that can. take the reigns from him. Same thing at the WR position and all positions. We got a solid starting linup and some pretty good backups.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Start Sage!!
drunkcookie
2 drunk 2 cook
He's both underappreciated and overappreciated IMO... He's like most Tier 2-3 QBs, very polarizing in their respected NFL cities... He can never be "just good enough"...
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Cerberus
Hall of Fame
Bingo! If Leinart were as good or better than Schaub, he would have been the starter. Fact is, the playbook will have to be pared down in some places to fit Leinart, just like some plays can be added because of what Leinart can do. However, you don't want to tinker with the system too much. All the same, I think many of those that don't like Schaub will come around once they get a look at things with Leinart. I'll be most curious to see if he can throw an out pattern with enough zing not to be throwing pick-6's. I still questions his arm strength.
Funny how you weren't able to recognize "hope" when the Raiders made their trade for Carson Palmer; which by the way is working out rather well if I must say so myself.
Schaub is a good QB, and is indeed under-appreciated. I'd put him in the same group as a Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan, Jay Cutler and Eli Manning.
Uh, a lot of teams can look back and say "what if", I mean just look at my Raiders. If they wouldn't have let Buffalo come back on them, if Campbell didn't go down and the Raiders didn't have to play Boller or Palmer off the couch they would have beaten the Donks and Chiefs, and they too would have been 9-1. They lost to the Patriots, no if's, and's or but's. Point being, you are what your record says you are, and the Texans currently are 7-3.
Being this is a Texans board, I felt my time would be better spent pissing in your cheerios
You missed the point entirely. It was not about us being 9-1, it was about the Matt Schaub we've seen this year is not the Matt Schaub who is near elite. Maybe he didn't have to be. But how is he supposed to know that?
I want a guy, a QB, who will fight to win every single play. That doesn't mean he needs to force throws, but if the probability of Matt throwing the ball away when he leaves the pocket is substantially greater than the probability that he will "make a play" then we've got the wrong guy in there.
This seems like a straw man debate. Set up "Schaub is under appreciated" in order to knock it down.
But honestly, I've only heard a couple of nitwit callers on sports talk radio who advocate getting another QB, but I completely disregard their opinions as morons when they don't have basic facts about Schaub and start suggesting idiotic things like "we need Aaron Rogers or Tom Brady". It's just a stupid take and causes an immediate reaction in me to put on a CD in order to make the stupid stop burning my brain.
Schaub is not elite, but he's definitely in the top third of starting QBs in the league. There are many teams in the league that would love to have him on their roster.
I agree with Herv that people are just trying to remain optimistic when talking about Leinart. Nobody knows at this point.
But honestly, I've only heard a couple of nitwit callers on sports talk radio who advocate getting another QB, but I completely disregard their opinions as morons when they don't have basic facts about Schaub and start suggesting idiotic things like "we need Aaron Rogers or Tom Brady". It's just a stupid take and causes an immediate reaction in me to put on a CD in order to make the stupid stop burning my brain.
Schaub is not elite, but he's definitely in the top third of starting QBs in the league. There are many teams in the league that would love to have him on their roster.
I agree with Herv that people are just trying to remain optimistic when talking about Leinart. Nobody knows at this point.
I think I agree with this. But like Beerlover basically said....you really don't know how much you miss something until it's gone...
We will see how much Schaub is missed. Extremely likely he will be missed, but to what degree we don't know yet.
On another note, I re-watched the first drive of the Steelers game and Schaub made some good throws that I had forgotten about. We had a few penalties on the drive and Shammy made some good throws to keep the chains moving. On 3rd and long he had a really good throw to OD that was kind of in between two Steelers....
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
OK for the anti-stat people yeah he has been down from prior (stellar - wouldn't want to use the elite word) performances. And yet has the 6th highest QB rating in the league. What is elite with 32 teams? - 2, 3, 4? Wide receivers drop balls, even great ones like AJ. Running backs fumble balls, even great ones like Sanders, Smith, Brown. Quarter backs have errant throws, even great ones like Staubach, Montana, Elway. This expectation of perfection is getting irritating.
Agreed with the exception of there were quite a few people calling in on radio earlier this season acting like Schaub was the problem on the team. And frankly people acting like they know Leinart will be "as good or better" than Schaub are taking a dig at him as well. I hope it is true but there is no reason to believe so.
Right, but those QB's were considered great for a reason.
Unless we are going to put Schaub in the same category as those guys I don't understand the point.
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I'm sure there are people unreasonably asking Matt Schaub to be perfect. I'm not one of those. I'm simply asking him to play with the same urgency we saw the past two years, where every possession, every snap was crucial & he went beyond the standard drop back, read the defense & throw the ball.
He extended plays, he made things happen.
We still didn't convert on every third down, we still didn't score on every possession, but he greatly increased our chances of both, by not just taking what the defense gave us, but making things happen.
eh.. I know for Leinart to bring to the table what Schaub has brought to the table he's going to have to play better than he's every played before.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
OK, first off tired of the "don't bring up a great one for comparison " argument. I didn't say Schaub was a hall of famer. I said (as if this should need translation) even hall of famers throw errant balls.
Really you don't get the point? GOOD QB'S MAKE BAD THROWS (or if this really needed to be said, wide receivers sometimes run bad routes and make throws look off). Frankly Manning throws ugly and errant balls a lot. Schaub has a better completion percentage than all the QB's I mentioned. Schaub had the 2nd highest ypa without AJ and with a crew many folks say needs to be upgraded. I don't know what it is about Houston fans. Talk crap about something good you have and then complain the folks in town are too soft on the team and "this would never be acceptable in New York."
drunkcookie
2 drunk 2 cook
Well to be fair, bad QBs sometimes make great throws... it's all about the ratio... This year Schaub has made some great throws and has made some bad throws... he's running about average this year IMO, and I'm a Schaub guy...
but since we're talking about Schaub and great throws, my favorite was against Oakland when Walter made a diving 49 yd catch... I remember a lot of people saying that Walter bailed Schaub out on that pass, but I completely disagreed... He wasn't going to hit Walter in stride and he knew Walter is no 'Dre, and wasn't going to put a lot of air under the ball and let Walter go up and get it... he pretty much darted a laser to Walter, who was tightly covered, and Walter dove and made a finger-tip grab... I guess a lot of people just focused on the way Walter caught it, and decided it was more of a great catch than a great pass, but Walter didn't "have" to dive for it... he could have kept running but jump both foward and up and it would have hit him in the right spot... I've seen a lot of those go to the house, as the receiver is able to shove the defender down into the ground after landing, high-stepping out of the arms and cruising to the 'zone...
It was a great catch still, but it was for sure a great pass...
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I was watching that game last night and thinking the same thing: if Schaub ever had a game as bad as Eli's, he would get relentlessly persecuted by Texan fans. Amazing what one fluke playoff run, a dropped interception by Asante Samuel, and an amazing catch has done for that guy's reputation.
The reality is that Schaub is not among the elite 5 or 6 QBs in the NFL. After that, he's in the next group. Who is better/ not better is dependent on the system, coaching, etc... Just because this team may continue to win without Schaub doesn't diminish his value. I remember in 1991, Aikman went down with an injury at this point in the season and Steve Beuerlein won the final 5 games of the regular season and the first round of the playoffs. I'm hopeful for something similar. Still, it won't change my view of Matt Schaub as one of the 10 best QBs in the NFL.
I think you completely missed the point of my comment. Which is understandable since anytime someone mentions Schaub in an unglowing fashion it seems to really bother you.
But my point was that yes...Great players sometimes have bad plays but those players are considered great for a reason. Their bad plays are not amplified because they do so many other things great.
In typing this post I have realized what the point was. You hold Schaub in a very high regard...High enough that you feel like his bad plays and missed throws should not be talked about...
If I'm correct and that is your point, I disagree on all accounts.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Schaub, for a 3rd year in a row, is in the top 7 in almost every significant passing category. This year, he has accumulated those stats without much help from AJ. Last year, he did it with a hobbled AJ. He managed this team and offense beautifully through a four game winning streak. One of the biggest criticisms about him was his inability to stay healthy. This Sunday, will be the first game he hasn't started for the Texans since the fall of 2008. Why would Texan fans complain about the guy? I don't get it. I'd love to have a Hall of Fame talent at QB but I'll take a limited but excellent QB (like the one we have).
I remember when Sage was here and there was a good portion of the fan base that wanted him to start over Schaub.
I didn't agree with that, but I will say that when Schaub went out and Sage came in, I didn't feel like the bottom was going to fall out. Sage has a winning record as a starter. He played pretty well here. Folks remember the Rosencopter moment, but overall he played well enough to be traded for a mid round draft pick.
Since then, Sage has not achieved anywhere near the "success" that he had achieved in this system.
Matt has gotten better since he has been here. So has the talent around him.
The likely scenario is that Leinart comes in and plays well, but is not at the level that Schaub is/was at. But Leinart will have to be pretty bad to come in and be detrimental to the team. If he is just ok I think we will be fine. Ok is what I'm hoping for from him. If he exceeds that I think it's just gravy.
Some people want a fiery coach.
I want a fiery QB. I was happy with Schaub, happy enough. I never was one of those, "he'll never take us to the Super Bowl" guys. But if Leinart becomes our MVP (I know it isn't likely to happen) over the next 9 weeks, I'm open to making the switch.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
Who the hell cares who the goddamn QB is as long as we are winning?
Schaub is a fantastic QB for our system, and he'll be missed. It's not likely Leinart will be as good as Schaub, most especially in his first few games. But if he is, that would be fantastic. I don't care if Gomer Pyle isn't the QB anymore, as long as Hot Tub can hand off and make those roll out passes.
Schaub is a fantastic QB for our system, and he'll be missed. It's not likely Leinart will be as good as Schaub, most especially in his first few games. But if he is, that would be fantastic. I don't care if Gomer Pyle isn't the QB anymore, as long as Hot Tub can hand off and make those roll out passes.
AgreedWho the hell cares who the goddamn QB is as long as we are winning?
Schaub is a fantastic QB for our system, and he'll be missed. It's not likely Leinart will be as good as Schaub, most especially in his first few games. But if he is, that would be fantastic. I don't care if Gomer Pyle isn't the QB anymore, as long as Hot Tub can hand off and make those roll out passes.
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I think that Leinart can manage the game. We're probably not going to blow out teams anymore 41-7, but we can still win. Leinart needs to be able to make the throws he can, and I imagine Kubiak will gameplan for Leinart's ability.
Schaub's a good QB in a great system and Kubiak has figured out how to maximize that. I think at this point in his career, Leinart has shown us what he can and can't do. Kubiak is going to get more out of Leinart than AZ did, but I still think that will be less than what Kubiak can get out of Schaub.
Schaub's a good QB in a great system and Kubiak has figured out how to maximize that. I think at this point in his career, Leinart has shown us what he can and can't do. Kubiak is going to get more out of Leinart than AZ did, but I still think that will be less than what Kubiak can get out of Schaub.