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New franchise tag (doesn't relate to Mario)

Section516

Section516

Warrior
While we have a moment, let's clarify an important part of last week's discussion about Chicago Bears tailback Matt Forte and the possible application of a future franchise tag.

As we noted, Forte would earn about $7.7 million if the Bears make him their franchise player in 2012. But along with many others, I wasn't fully informed about how the NFL has arrived at that figure.

As ESPN analyst Andrew Brandt explained for the National Football Post, the league's new collective bargaining agreement (CBA) changed the fundamentals of the franchise tag. It's no longer the average of the five highest-paid players at the position. Instead, it's the average of the highest-paid player at the position in each of the last five years.

Because it reaches back to dated salary figures, the new formula has actually pulled down franchise tag numbers significantly and made it even less attractive for players. For example, the estimated $7.7 million franchise number for running backs in 2012 is about 19 percent less than the 2011 number.

As Brandt notes, this change could also impact the Green Bay Packers' upcoming negotiations with tight end Jermichael Finley. The 2012 franchise tag number for tight ends is estimated between $5.4 million and $5.6 million, about 27 percent less than the 2011 number of $7.3 million. Finley at $7.3 million sounded doable, but $5.6 million sounds like a relative slam dunk.

Generally speaking, the franchise tag is a bigger advantage for NFL teams than ever. Elite players can be locked up for substantially less than before, and the lower numbers will give teams a new tool to prevent departures from good players who wouldn't otherwise have been considered candidates for a high guaranteed salary.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation

In regards to being the average of last five years, is that the number that the 16m for a franchise is based off of?
 
infantrycak said:
Unless they eliminated the or 120% rule this is immaterial to Mario.
Click to expand...

I don't see how the Texans can franchise Mario realistically. If they have the cap room to pay him all that money next year they'd be mad not to partially front-load his contract and make it more cap friendly in subsequent seasons wouldn't they?
 
welsh texan said:
I don't see how the Texans can franchise Mario realistically. If they have the cap room to pay him all that money next year they'd be mad not to partially front-load his contract and make it more cap friendly in subsequent seasons wouldn't they?
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Im sure we are going to want to sign Arian to a nice little contract not to mention Andre's contract kicks in next season as well if I remember correctly.

Note - Dre' will be the highest paid WR in the league next year.
 
infantrycak said:
Unless they eliminated the or 120% rule this is immaterial to Mario.
Click to expand...

The 120% rule still appears to apply

See pp 44-46 from the 2011 CBA (the link below is for a PDF of the entire 2011 NFL CBA if ever anyone wants it for future reference)

ARTICLE 10
FRANCHISE AND TRANSITION PLAYERS

Interestingly, as you will see, if the franchise tag is applied more than one time, there are additional formula adjustments.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
The 120% rule still appears to apply

See pp 44-46 from the 2011 CBA (the link below is for a PDF of the entire 2011 NFL CBA if ever anyone wants it for future reference)

ARTICLE 10
FRANCHISE AND TRANSITION PLAYERS

Interestingly, as you will see, if the franchise tag is applied more than one time, there are additional formula adjustments.
Click to expand...

Thanks CND, that confirms it. Mario will be a 17.76 million dollar franchise player if tagged. That's expensive.
 
amazing80 said:
How do you get 17.76 M? Just curious, because (not that he is always right), John McClain thinks around 22 million
Click to expand...

Either way, it would blow up the cap. Big quandry coming off his injury........sign for longer term and take a very huge chance vs. franchise for one year and take a huge chance.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Either way, it would blow up the cap. Big quandry coming off his injury........sign for longer term and take a very huge chance vs. franchise for one year and take a huge chance.
Click to expand...

I think we can all agree that a determination cannot be made at this point of the season... And I think we can safely say, at the end of the season, we still won't be able to make a determination.
 
I like Mario, but meh!! Offer him realistic money. If he likes it sign him, if not let him walk. Just don't break the bank for the guy. There's other guys that need to get paid too (I'm looking at you Arian Foster).
 
By the way, while we're on the subject of tag money. Does anyone know if the salary cap will increase next year and by how much? I don't recall seeing any numbers yet.
 
Dutchrudder said:
Sorry, I thought it was 14.8 million, but looking again it's 13.8. 13.8 million X 1.2 = 16.56 for F tag on him.
Click to expand...

Where are you getting the numbers from!?

And i think unless we get him for 10-12 a year we should let him walk, no one is going to trade for him with a high price tag and coming an injury....
 
Dutchrudder said:
By the way, while we're on the subject of tag money. Does anyone know if the salary cap will increase next year and by how much? I don't recall seeing any numbers yet.
Click to expand...

The 2011 and 2012 season will carry the same $120 million cap. These are considered "soft" cap years because of adjusting for earned and unearned bonus calculations and :

As stated, the latest (and 6th) CBA was passed by the NFLPA and owners in August, 2011. Listed below are the changes that were made:

For 2011, time-based roster bonuses and other incentives (e.g. “Player must be on the roster on April 15th to receive bonus”), the contractual date is amended to July 29.

If a player is released prior to July 29, the team must pay all of his workout bonus if it is $50,000 or less, $50,000 if it it between $50,000 and $100,000, and 50% of the bonus if it is over $100,000 (up to $100,000). If the player is released AFTER 4:00 PM on July 29, then he is due the full amount of his workout bonus.

For 2011, each team may designate up to 3 of their highest paid players (who must have at least 5 accrued seasons and make at least $1 M more than the league minimum salary for that year), toward whom the team will will receive $1 M cap credit. Repayment of this credit will be applied toward the 2014-2017 league years.

For 2012, each team may designate up to 3 of their highest paid players (who must have at least 5 accrued seasons and make at least $500,000 more than the league minimum salary for that year), toward whom the team will will receive $500,000 cap credit. Repayment of this credit will be applied toward the 2014-2017 league years.

Proration for signing bonuses for contracts signed during the 2011 league year (after July 25) will begin cap acceleration in 2012.
Click to expand...

Note that, as opposed to common thinking, the spending "floor" to the cap does not actually apply to 2011 and 2012.

Under the new CBA, The cap for 2011 is $120.375M per team. Each team must average $119.2 M. That is a league-wide average not an individual team minimum. League-wide, teams must spend 99% of the cap in 2011 and 2012. In 2013 and beyond, they must spend 95% of the cap. In the event that player costs are less than this overall league minimum, then, on or before April 15 of the next League Year, the NFL shall pay an amount equal to such deficiency directly to the players.

In terms of minimum salary for each team, the salary floor is 89% of the cap. However, that does not start until 2013. Hence, there is in essence no salary floor in 2011 or 2012. (Note this point, as there is plenty of misinformation about this running rampant in the press!)
Click to expand...


link

2013 will return to a "hard" cap.
 
Aren't we already on the brink of cap hell? I'm all for being able to sign multiple players rather than just one. Foster is more than earning his payday and I believe we have a couple of other guys coming up for new contracts.
I say we take a Leach approach to this and make MW a decent offer but don't break the bank. The Joseph and Manning signings should be proof enough for that mindset.
 
DocBar said:
Aren't we already on the brink of cap hell?
Click to expand...

IMO, cap hell is when you've got a lot of dead money on your books for players who are either not here, or aren't producing.

Say we sign Mario to a big contract, lots of guaranteed money & pro-rate that bonus over 6 years. Let's say he gets hurt this year, misses most of the year, so we cut him next year.

Next year, 5/6ths of his bonus will be applied to our cap, we wouldn't have a choice. That's a lot of money for a player no longer on your roster.
 
thunderkyss said:
IMO, cap hell is when you've got a lot of dead money on your books for players who are either not here, or aren't producing.

Say we sign Mario to a big contract, lots of guaranteed money & pro-rate that bonus over 6 years. Let's say he gets hurt this year, misses most of the year, so we cut him next year.

Next year, 5/6ths of his bonus will be applied to our cap, we wouldn't have a choice. That's a lot of money for a player no longer on your roster.
Click to expand...
IMO, cap hell is when you barely have enough money to pay your draft picks and have little to no money to cover UFA's and FA's. That's a recipe for being forced to play rookies and hope they play above expectations. I think we've all seen how well that works out.
 
DocBar said:
IMO, cap hell is when you barely have enough money to pay your draft picks and have little to no money to cover UFA's and FA's. That's a recipe for being forced to play rookies and hope they play above expectations. I think we've all seen how well that works out.
Click to expand...

Regardless what happens in FA next off-season, I doubt we'll start a rookie anywhere on this team.

With Brandon Harris not being activated...... our 5th, 6th, & 7th round picks probably won't make the team.
 
Section516 said:
While we have a moment, let's clarify an important part of last week's discussion about Chicago Bears tailback Matt Forte and the possible application of a future franchise tag.

As we noted, Forte would earn about $7.7 million if the Bears make him their franchise player in 2012. But along with many others, I wasn't fully informed about how the NFL has arrived at that figure.

As ESPN analyst Andrew Brandt explained for the National Football Post, the league's new collective bargaining agreement (CBA) changed the fundamentals of the franchise tag. It's no longer the average of the five highest-paid players at the position. Instead, it's the average of the highest-paid player at the position in each of the last five years.

Because it reaches back to dated salary figures, the new formula has actually pulled down franchise tag numbers significantly and made it even less attractive for players. For example, the estimated $7.7 million franchise number for running backs in 2012 is about 19 percent less than the 2011 number.

As Brandt notes, this change could also impact the Green Bay Packers' upcoming negotiations with tight end Jermichael Finley. The 2012 franchise tag number for tight ends is estimated between $5.4 million and $5.6 million, about 27 percent less than the 2011 number of $7.3 million. Finley at $7.3 million sounded doable, but $5.6 million sounds like a relative slam dunk.

Generally speaking, the franchise tag is a bigger advantage for NFL teams than ever. Elite players can be locked up for substantially less than before, and the lower numbers will give teams a new tool to prevent departures from good players who wouldn't otherwise have been considered candidates for a high guaranteed salary.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation

In regards to being the average of last five years, is that the number that the 16m for a franchise is based off of?
Click to expand...
516 what does he base his comments on? I see no link to the new CBA nor can I find one anywhere. As those that post on this MB are requested to provide links to support our comments, Brandt should do same. Of all the links I could find none mentioned any changes to tags. Not saying he is wrong but nothing proves he is correct.

ps, if any one can post a link to new CBA, I would be grateful.
 
thunderkyss said:
Regardless what happens in FA next off-season, I doubt we'll start a rookie anywhere on this team.

With Brandon Harris not being activated...... our 5th, 6th, & 7th round picks probably won't make the team.
Click to expand...
You think we'll spend our last 3 draft picks on cb? I could easily see us starting a rookie WR. Silly post, TK. I'm drinking the koolade, too. I just don't wear my rose colored glasses when I do it.
 
thunderkyss said:
Regardless what happens in FA next off-season, I doubt we'll start a rookie anywhere on this team.

With Brandon Harris not being activated...... our 5th, 6th, & 7th round picks probably won't make the team.
Click to expand...
So a drafted WR or OG could not start over whom we have? Not sure I agree with that.
 
Section516 said:
While we have a moment, let's clarify an important part of last week's discussion about Chicago Bears tailback Matt Forte and the possible application of a future franchise tag.

As we noted, Forte would earn about $7.7 million if the Bears make him their franchise player in 2012. But along with many others, I wasn't fully informed about how the NFL has arrived at that figure.

As ESPN analyst Andrew Brandt explained for the National Football Post, the league's new collective bargaining agreement (CBA) changed the fundamentals of the franchise tag. It's no longer the average of the five highest-paid players at the position. Instead, it's the average of the highest-paid player at the position in each of the last five years.

Because it reaches back to dated salary figures, the new formula has actually pulled down franchise tag numbers significantly and made it even less attractive for players. For example, the estimated $7.7 million franchise number for running backs in 2012 is about 19 percent less than the 2011 number.

As Brandt notes, this change could also impact the Green Bay Packers' upcoming negotiations with tight end Jermichael Finley. The 2012 franchise tag number for tight ends is estimated between $5.4 million and $5.6 million, about 27 percent less than the 2011 number of $7.3 million. Finley at $7.3 million sounded doable, but $5.6 million sounds like a relative slam dunk.

Generally speaking, the franchise tag is a bigger advantage for NFL teams than ever. Elite players can be locked up for substantially less than before, and the lower numbers will give teams a new tool to prevent departures from good players who wouldn't otherwise have been considered candidates for a high guaranteed salary.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation

In regards to being the average of last five years, is that the number that the 16m for a franchise is based off of?
Click to expand...
Here is the exact wording of the CBA that comes from the link CND posted:
Nonexclusive Franchise Tender. The Nonexclusive Franchise Tender
shall be a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Prior Year
Salaries for players at the position (within the categories set forth in Section 7 (a) below)
at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League
Year, which average shall be calculated by: (1) summing the amounts of the Franchise
Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the
resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years
(using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 201 1 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap
amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the
Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012
League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position
for the 2007-201 1 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the
2007-20 1 1 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for
the 20 1 2 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average") (See Appendix E for an illustrative
example); or (B) 120% of his Prior Year Salary, whichever is greater; if the Club
extends the Tender pursuant to this Subsection (a) (i), the player shall be permitted to
negotiate a Player Contract with any Club as if he were a player subject to Section 5
below, except that Draft Choice Compensation of two first round draft selections shall
be made with respect to such player in the event he signs with the New Club, and the
Signing Period for such player shall be determined under Section 1 4 below. For purposes
of this Subsection, the "Franchise Tag" is the average of the five largest Prior Year Salaries
(e.g., the Franchise Tag for the 2010 League Year equals the average of the five
largest Salaries for the 2009 League Year for players at that position); or
(ii) Exclusive Franchise Tender. The Exclusive Franchise Tender shall be
a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Salaries in Player
Contracts for that League Year as of the end of the Restricted Free Agent Signing Period
that League Year, as set forth in Article 9, Section 2( e), for players at the position (within
the categories set forth in Section 7(a) below) at which he participated in the most plays
during the prior League Year, or (B) the amount of the Required Tender under Subsection
(a) (i) above, whichever is greater.


I am exhausted and I've read this several times. Some of you guys explain it.

As other say, it does not appear to effect Mario who would get the 120% I've posted before.
 
badboy said:
Here is the exact wording of the CBA that comes from the link CND posted:
Nonexclusive Franchise Tender. The Nonexclusive Franchise Tender
shall be a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Prior Year
Salaries for players at the position (within the categories set forth in Section 7 (a) below)
at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League
Year, which average shall be calculated by: (1) summing the amounts of the Franchise
Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the
resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years
(using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 201 1 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap
amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the
Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012
League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position
for the 2007-201 1 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the
2007-20 1 1 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for
the 20 1 2 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average") (See Appendix E for an illustrative
example); or (B) 120% of his Prior Year Salary, whichever is greater; if the Club
extends the Tender pursuant to this Subsection (a) (i), the player shall be permitted to
negotiate a Player Contract with any Club as if he were a player subject to Section 5
below, except that Draft Choice Compensation of two first round draft selections shall
be made with respect to such player in the event he signs with the New Club, and the
Signing Period for such player shall be determined under Section 1 4 below. For purposes
of this Subsection, the "Franchise Tag" is the average of the five largest Prior Year Salaries
(e.g., the Franchise Tag for the 2010 League Year equals the average of the five
largest Salaries for the 2009 League Year for players at that position); or
(ii) Exclusive Franchise Tender. The Exclusive Franchise Tender shall be
a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Salaries in Player
Contracts for that League Year as of the end of the Restricted Free Agent Signing Period
that League Year, as set forth in Article 9, Section 2( e), for players at the position (within
the categories set forth in Section 7(a) below) at which he participated in the most plays
during the prior League Year, or (B) the amount of the Required Tender under Subsection
(a) (i) above, whichever is greater.


I am exhausted and I've read this several times. Some of you guys explain it.

As other say, it does not appear to effect Mario who would get the 120% I've posted before.
Click to expand...

Son, you're on your own
images
 
badboy said:
So a drafted WR or OG could not start over whom we have? Not sure I agree with that.
Click to expand...

Kubiak will not start a drafted WR over KDub..... not going to happen.

He won't start a drafted OG over Brisiel or Wade Smith. Even though those guys are not perfect, KDub included, they all bring something to the table that Kubiak likes.
 
Are those $16-17 million dollar franchise tag numbers for OLB's or DE's?

How does Mario's position change affect how he's tagged?
 
Big Lou said:
Are those $16-17 million dollar franchise tag numbers for OLB's or DE's?

How does Mario's position change affect how he's tagged?
Click to expand...
imo it does not. Any tag placed on Mario triggers the 120% of his last season's salary. $13.8m + $2.76m (20%)= $16.56m. Earlier in this thread someone posted the one year offers and compensation picks if any.

BTW, that amount would also be the cap hit as no bonus money.
 
badboy said:
imo it does not. Any tag placed on Mario triggers the 120% of his last season's salary. $13.8m + $2.76m (20%)= $16.56m. Earlier in this thread someone posted the one year offers and compensation picks if any.

BTW, that amount would also be the cap hit as no bonus money.
Click to expand...

That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
 
Dutchrudder said:
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
Click to expand...
I think it was possible the team was trying to make their selection of Mario over Bush/Young go over better with fans. IIRC, Mario's agent recommended this deal. Also, we now have CHris Olsen as CAP guru so that should not happen again. We should back end his next deal though. I am creating info on a thread from Mario's point of view for next contract.
 
Dutchrudder said:
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
Click to expand...

You aren't thinking worse case scenarios. Suppose he was a bust and you figured that out in year 3 of the 5-year deal. Since there are no guaranteed contracts in the NFL (only some percentage of guaranteed money) you could release him two years before this fifth year "balloon payment" came due. Then you would end up saving the team money.

At least that's the way I figure it.
 
badboy said:
I think it was possible the team was trying to make their selection of Mario over Bush/Young go over better with fans. IIRC, Mario's agent recommended this deal. Also, we now have CHris Olsen as CAP guru so that should not happen again. We should back end his next deal though. I am creating info on a thread from Mario's point of view for next contract.
Click to expand...

Yeah, for vets you always backload a deal to make protect your money from being wasted. I would expect Mario's next deal to escalate over time, but not like this one. Year four: 3 million, Year five: 13.8 million. That's a steep climb.

ObsiWan said:
You aren't thinking worse case scenarios. Suppose he was a bust and you figured that out in year 3 of the 5-year deal. Since there are no guaranteed contracts in the NFL (only some percentage of guaranteed money) you could release him two years before this fifth year "balloon payment" came due. Then you would end up saving the team money.

At least that's the way I figure it.
Click to expand...

The way the contract was structured, 26.5 million was guaranteed. That means almost all of his base salary for the contract was guaranteed, which is why they couldn't cut him this year to save that money. They were going to pay this out one way or another, so why not spread it out more instead of having a balloon payment of 11 million more in 2011 vs 2010? Sounds really stupid to me and it makes franchising him a much bigger issue as his tag cost is enormous.
 
Dutchrudder said:
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
Click to expand...


Wow! If this is accurate, we should've cut Mario before the season. We could have saved $12 million and spent it in that free agent class.
 
Dutchrudder said:
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
Click to expand...

Contracts are back-end loaded when no one expects the player to play the contract out. Mario's performance should have been so good, that his contract should have been redone in the off-season.

With Mario missing the last three games of 2010, the lock-out & knowing they were going to be moving Mario to OLB, how can you make the decision to redo his contract?
 
Most know that I am an advocate of trading WIlliams IF the deal is good. Last night for some reason I decided to place myself in Mario's shoes. Of course they were too big and I fell down. Seriously though I had not looked at the off season from his pov. So here we go.


I am 6'6" 280 lbs and I will be only 27 going into my next contract. I can play 4-3 DE or 3-4 DE. We now know under Wade Phillips I can play OLB and I avg a sack per game. Can you imagine how good I'll be with the seasoned defense going into 2012? You are going to mention injuries, well let me bring it up. For five years I played thru all sorts of crazy stuff but only missed three, I repeat three games until this season.

Franchise me if you want, $16.56 m will look good in my checking account, but I want and you want a long term reasonable deal. My first contract except for the last year was overwhelmingly in team's favor so let's not focus on 2011 & forget the other five years. Here's what I want:

5 years $70 million. $15m upfront prorated over 5 years = $3m to add to my cap figure. The remaining $55m to be paid as follows year one $8m +3 (11 cap) year 2 $10m +3 ($13m cap) year 3 $12m +3 ($15) year 4 &5 12.5m + $3 each.

Don't like either? Well, I would love to go free and see what the other teams like Patriots would offer. Can you imaginge that team with me and two firsts and two seconds in next draft?

Try to trade me to another team and I will refuse to negotiate a new deal.

See ya at OTA's!
 
thunderkyss said:
Contracts are back-end loaded when no one expects the player to play the contract out. Mario's performance should have been so good, that his contract should have been redone in the off-season.

With Mario missing the last three games of 2010, the lock-out & knowing they were going to be moving Mario to OLB, how can you make the decision to redo his contract?
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He was basically guaranteed to stay through his entire contract given the way it was structured, so why not shift some of that 13.8 million in 2011 to 2010 during an un-capped year? Wouldn't that make a lot of sense if you are a pro-active GM or cap manager? That's why we signed Demeco to a big deal and front-loaded it. It just seems to me that someone wasn't thinking ahead, or maybe they were absolutely certain that Mario will sign a long-term deal. I dunno, but it does put the Texans in a bind.
 
Dutchrudder said:
I dunno, but it does put the Texans in a bind.
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We'll see.

Usually these big time FAs want to go to a championship contender. If we're ranked anywhere near #1 defensively & get to the AFC Championship Game, we'll be that team.

Being that Mario was drafted by the Texans & treated pretty well by the Texans, he may have no intentions of signing with anyone but the Texans..... like Andre.

As long as we offer him something reasonable (& I don't know what that is) the Franchise tag may not even come close to being a possibility.

Regardless where he goes, his guaranteed money will be more than the franchise tag. We could offer him $40 million guaranteed on a 6 year deal, back loaded where his average cap hit would be $10 million a year.

Loaded heavily on the last 2 years, so it would basically be a 4 year contract with the understanding that it would be redone for the 2016 season.

We save $3 million over his current cap hit, he averages $1M+ more a year, & he's got $40 million in his pocket.
 
Do you think the Patriots would sign Mario to a deal like that? Tell Mario to go & see what the Patriots are thinking about & we'll match them.

Do you have a problem with Mario with a cap number between $11M & $15.5M?
 
Dutchrudder said:
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
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I'm not sure, but weren't we in "cap hell" back then with big contracts to some players who were not even on the team anymore? Plus, I think resigning HWSNBN had just been completed. :kubepalm::toropalm::vincepalm: That might have had something to do with back loading Mario's contract.
 
thunderkyss said:
Do you think the Patriots would sign Mario to a deal like that? Tell Mario to go & see what the Patriots are thinking about & we'll match them.

Do you have a problem with Mario with a cap number between $11M & $15.5M?
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NE thought they would be SB champs last two years. They gambled on DT Hainesworth and lost & cut him.
They drafted Devon McCourty but are hurting on DBs as Ras I Dowling on IR.

Their front 4 are over the hill. Andre Carter DE is 32. NT Wilfork is 30 & Mark ANderson is 28. He not kept by Houston or Chicago (twice).

Rob Nincovitch & Dane Fletcher ( who are these guys?) are the OLBs.

Yep, I think I could find a way to pay Mario.
 
I think if mario hits free agency he ends up in Carolina or Denver. Both are 4-3 defenses that need at least one more DE, and both are going to need to up their cap numbers for 2013 when the 89% minimum kicks in.
 
thunderkyss said:
Then if that's reasonable to the Patriots (as opposed to some dumbass like Jerrah or Snyder) then that's what I would pay Mario.
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Yep, that was what I was thinking last night. Mario will be Texan next year. BTW he has a beautiful home in Houston.


Mario Williams, the Houston Texans' much-debated No. 1 draft pick, has purchased a home with its own share of controversy.

The newly rich National Football League rookie bought the spacious, Mediterranean-style house from ousted Texas Southern University President Priscilla Slade for about $1.5 million, according to records filed last week.

The 6,000-square-foot house near Memorial Park gained notoriety as part of a spending scandal that led to Slade's firing and a criminal investigation.
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...ie-Williams-buys-house-from-Slade-1851416.php
 
thunderkyss said:
We'll see.

Usually these big time FAs want to go to a championship contender. If we're ranked anywhere near #1 defensively & get to the AFC Championship Game, we'll be that team.

Being that Mario was drafted by the Texans & treated pretty well by the Texans, he may have no intentions of signing with anyone but the Texans..... like Andre.

As long as we offer him something reasonable (& I don't know what that is) the Franchise tag may not even come close to being a possibility.

Regardless where he goes, his guaranteed money will be more than the franchise tag. We could offer him $40 million guaranteed on a 6 year deal, back loaded where his average cap hit would be $10 million a year.

Loaded heavily on the last 2 years, so it would basically be a 4 year contract with the understanding that it would be redone for the 2016 season.

We save $3 million over his current cap hit, he averages $1M+ more a year, & he's got $40 million in his pocket.
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Definitely doable if Mario is willing to go for it. I suspect his agent will want him to hit the free agent market though.

Insideop said:
I'm not sure, but weren't we in "cap hell" back then with big contracts to some players who were not even on the team anymore? Plus, I think resigning HWSNBN had just been completed. :kubepalm::toropalm::vincepalm: That might have had something to do with back loading Mario's contract.
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2010 was an uncapped year, so there was no 'cap hell' to speak of. Paying him an extra 2 million to re-do his contract to swap the 2010 and 2011 salaries would have been a smart thing to do. Could have franchised him and been in a great position to negotiate a good deal for both sides. Now if we franchise him, it puts management in a precarious position for negotiations, much like the Dunta situation.
 
badboy said:
Yep, that was what I was thinking last night. Mario will be Texan next year. BTW he has a beautiful home in Houston.


Mario Williams, the Houston Texans' much-debated No. 1 draft pick, has purchased a home with its own share of controversy.

The newly rich National Football League rookie bought the spacious, Mediterranean-style house from ousted Texas Southern University President Priscilla Slade for about $1.5 million, according to records filed last week.

The 6,000-square-foot house near Memorial Park gained notoriety as part of a spending scandal that led to Slade's firing and a criminal investigation.
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...ie-Williams-buys-house-from-Slade-1851416.php
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Wow! I had no idea Mario lived in my neighborhood! I'm pretty sure I know where this house is...

mediaManager


Edit: Found it! 203 Terrace Drive, just off of Memorial.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=203+Terrace+Drive,+Houston,+TX&hl=en&ll=29.763179,-95.424321&spn=0.006762,0.008626&sll=29.763352,-95.424576&layer=c&cbp=13,313.36,,0,0.17&cbll=29.763179,-95.424321&hnear=203+Terrace+Dr,+Houston,+Texas+77007&t=m&z=17&vpsrc=0&iwloc=A&panoid=fKEx3ZSR5utRorNveMpKCw

I mostly recall this house because of the absurd number of security cameras on it. Didn't know the backstory though, so that explains it!
 
Dutchrudder said:
Now if we franchise him, it puts management in a precarious position for negotiations, much like the Dunta situation.
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The tag on Dunta was what? $9-10Million?

If I were in the F.O. & I offered him a top 5 CB contract, I'd have been doing backflips if he turned it down. I'd be on every Houston T.V. & radio station saying, "We offered him top 5 CB money & he turned it down, don't know what else we could have done. As a GM I humbled myself, put that personal stuff aside, but he just did not want to be a Houston Texans."

& closed the book on that whole ordeal.

In other words, I wouldn't have franchised him the first time. Release him, make it look like the Texans are doing him a favor ala David Carr... but let him go.
 
I think for a multi millionaire, it was a good and reasonable buy for the money. IIRC, he bought this just after the incident with the police and him speeding. Bob called him in for a chat and told him to grow up. Mario appreciated way Mr. McNair handle the incident and bought the house to show maturity and settling down. He'd be pleased to know you are a neighbor. I think you should walk over and take a bundt cake or something. Probably more effective than sending thousands of text messages & let him know fans want him to re-sign with Texans.
 
DR's deal:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/2774/dunta-robinson

[x]3/5/2010: Signed a six-year, $57 million contract. The deal contains $25.5 million guaranteed, including a $7 million signing bonus. Robinson will also receive $5 million in option bonuses. 2011: $5.5 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2012: $6 million, 2013: $7 million, 2014: $9 million, 2015: $9.5 million, 2016: Free Agent
 
badboy said:
Franchise me if you want, $16.56 m will look good in my checking account, but I want and you want a long term reasonable deal. My first contract except for the last year was overwhelmingly in team's favor so let's not focus on 2011 & forget the other five years. Here's what I want:
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How was the first contract in the Texans' favor? Almost half of it was paid to Mario as a signing bonus $26M...
badboy said:
5 years $70 million. $15m upfront prorated over 5 years = $3m to add to my cap figure. The remaining $55m to be paid as follows year one $8m +3 (11 cap) year 2 $10m +3 ($13m cap) year 3 $12m +3 ($15) year 4 &5 12.5m + $3 each.
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This is Peppers last deal
The contract is worth $91.5 million with $42 million guaranteed. Peppers will make $40.5 million over the first three years. The number could increase if he makes the Pro Bowl, records a certain number of sacks or is defensive player of the year.
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Paying Peppers $40.5 in the first 3 years means a cap number upwards of $13M, which is the killer (kicker) if you ask me. But I think Smith & the cap dude should be able to get Mario something similar & use the 6 years & salary structure to get a low cap number, but put a lot of money in Mario's pocket.
thunderkyss said:
Regardless where he goes, his guaranteed money will be more than the franchise tag. We could offer him $40 million guaranteed on a 6 year deal, back loaded where his average cap hit would be $10 million a year.

Loaded heavily on the last 2 years, so it would basically be a 4 year contract with the understanding that it would be redone for the 2016 season.

We save $3 million over his current cap hit, he averages $1M+ more a year, & he's got $40 million in his pocket.
Click to expand...

Something like this. Remember, most contracts are not played all the way through, the length of the contract is just a way to manipulate the cap.
 
badboy said:
Here's what I want:

5 years $70 million. $15m upfront prorated over 5 years = $3m to add to my cap figure. The remaining $55m to be paid as follows year one $8m +3 (11 cap) year 2 $10m +3 ($13m cap) year 3 $12m +3 ($15) year 4 &5 12.5m + $3 each.!
Click to expand...

Considering that Peppers got $42 Million (50%) guaranteed on a 6 year, $84 Million contract (2010), Haloti Ngata got $37 Million (60%) guaranteed on a Five year $61 Million contract (2011) and Tamba Hali got $35 Million (58%) guaranteed on a Five year $60 Million deal (2011), I believe your overall economics are definitely in line, but $15 Million (21%) guaranteed would very likely be a deal killer from Mario's standpoint. While the big numbers are attention getting, but numbers that far and away are given the most weight by players and agents are the guaranteed ones.
 
thunderkyss said:
How was the first contract in the Texans' favor? Almost half of it was paid to Mario as a signing bonus $26M...


This is Peppers last deal


Paying Peppers $40.5 in the first 3 years means a cap number upwards of $13M, which is the killer (kicker) if you ask me. But I think Smith & the cap dude should be able to get Mario something similar & use the 6 years & salary structure to get a low cap number, but put a lot of money in Mario's pocket.


Something like this. Remember, most contracts are not played all the way through, the length of the contract is just a way to manipulate the cap.
Click to expand...
The guarantee Mario got was less than #1s were getting regardless of position. His base salary for first 5 yrs was $3m or less. First year was only $275,000. The guarantee was not up front money. His bonus consisted of incentive bonuses each year and not paid up front. Do you think any agent would allow the #1 pick to sign a deal like that now?


Barring career ending injury, Mario age is appropriate for a 6 year deal and he could collect the 6th @ age 32.
 
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