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Doesn't it take atleast 2 years to Successfully Transition to the 3-4 ?

I

IDEXAN

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And further complicating this transition for the Texans is that they have no players on their current roster who have experience at the 2 positions that most distinguish the 3-4 from the 4-3, NT and OLB. Right now Earl Mitchell is thought to be the most likely to be the Texans starting NT, and he's only played in the 4-3. And the most often mentioned OLB starter is a former basketball player/TE who's only played a couple years as a defensive player and none in the 3-4. And he's still rehabbing from last years season-ending
injury, so who knows when and if he ever recovers fully his former athletic prowess ? And maybe the biggest complication is knowing when and if we can
find players to help the transition without knowing when we can sign FAs
because of the Lockout/absense of a new CBA ?
So why would anybody really expect the Texans to have a winning-season and make the playoffs (and save Kubiaks job) in 2011 if it's unlikely that we can complete the transition to the 3-4 in one year ?
 
IDEXAN said:
And further complicating this transition for the Texans is that they have no players on their current roster who have experience at the 2 positions that most distinguish the 3-4 from the 4-3, NT and OLB. Right now Earl Mitchell is thought to be the most likely to be the Texans starting NT, and he's only played in the 4-3. And the most often mentioned OLB starter is a former basketball player/TE who's only played a couple years as a defensive player and none in the 3-4. And he's still rehabbing from last years season-ending
injury, so who knows when and if he ever recovers fully his former athletic prowess ? And maybe the biggest complication is knowing when and if we can
find players to help the transition without knowing when we can sign FAs
because of the Lockout/absense of a new CBA ?
So why would anybody really expect the Texans to have a winning-season and make the playoffs (and save Kubiaks job) in 2011 if it's unlikely that we can complete the transition to the 3-4 in one year ?
Click to expand...

Because even with a partial change to the 3-4, our defense will be so much better coached than it was in the 4-3 that it will improve. After being one of the worst defenses in history... it almost HAS to improve.

Also, Wade Phillips' defense doesn't need the same sorts of players that a lot of 3-4s need and can make use of 4-3 DTs in the NT spot when most 3-4s need a bigger body in the middle.
 
What would our defense be ranked if we don't successfully transition to the 3-4? 33rd ranked DEF?

Everybody says the same thing about every team transitioning defenses during the offseasons. They don't have X (D-linemen, OLB's, NT, name the position), they have to get rid of all their players etc etc. Mike Nolan and Dom Capers both proved that a great coordinator can make a defensive alignment transition much less painful than most pundits think it will be.
 
We don't even need a successful D to make the playoffs, all we need is a D that doesn't completely fail on a regular basis.
 
Wade said the Texans have the talent to win now (I assume he means contending fot a playoff spot).

Sure, if you want a very good defense, you can always use an upgrade.
Otherwise, it looks like Wade think (and I see it when I compare how the front 7 on both teams played) that they have the guys in place to be decent as long as the core players remain healthy somewhat.
Wade's scheme is quite similar to what the Texans use last year up front.

To be truly successful, well, you can always use a guy (meaning many) who is both stronger and quicker and faster than the guy you have now.
 
everyone is preoccupied with a nose tackle and some Demarcus Ware type rush linebacker ,but i dont know that our front 7 is the problem. It wasnt the big issue last year.

until our secondary gets fixed all this 3-4 personel dosent even matter. A portion of the time we're going to be running a 4-3 anyway.
 
If utilized correctly, Mario Williams will do well in 3-4 & I think Conner Barwin if healthy will excell @ OLB. Keep in mind the main goal of the NT is to tie up 2 blockers so DE and LBs can get to QB & stop the run. I think Cody will get some reps. On my mock board I have Phil Taylor from Baylor falling to us # 10 in second. CB is a more pressing priority than OLB or DT for me.
 
badboy said:
If utilized correctly, Mario Williams will do well in 3-4 & I think Conner Barwin if healthy will excell @ OLB. Keep in mind the main goal of the NT is to tie up 2 blockers so DE and LBs can get to QB & stop the run. I think Cody will get some reps. On my mock board I have Phil Taylor from Baylor falling to us # 10 in second. CB is a more pressing priority than OLB or DT for me.
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Cheerleader tryouts for NT!!! :splits:
 
"Doesn't it take atleast 2 years to Successfully Transition to the 3-4 ?"

So with the Texans that's going to work out more like 5 years right?
 
76Texan said:
Wade said the Texans have the talent to win now (I assume he means contending fot a playoff spot).
Click to expand...

Yeah but saying that was just a condition of employment. He probably doesn't think for a minute that the Texans really will need to win now. He's probably thinking that we got 2-3 years before his defense has to show results. By then Gary's gone and Wade's the HC in Houston. Dream job is a lock for him.
 
badboy said:
If utilized correctly, Mario Williams will do well in 3-4 & I think Conner Barwin if healthy will excell @ OLB.
Click to expand...

Mario has played as a down lineman his entire career, so going from a 4-3 DE
to a 3-4 DE should be a minor adjustment, especially since Wades 3-4 has the gap responsibility as what Mario is used to playing in the 4-3. I'm not worried about him or Antonio Smith on the other end of the DLine.
It's entirely different for Barwin, who's never played standing upright to any degree at all. It will be a major adjustment for him to make, and in a year when he's still recovering from a very severe injury. And then we have to find another player coming out of college who can "project" favorably to playing the other OLB position.
 
IDEXAN said:
And further complicating this transition for the Texans is that they have no players on their current roster who have experience at the 2 positions that most distinguish the 3-4 from the 4-3, NT and OLB. Right now Earl Mitchell is thought to be the most likely to be the Texans starting NT, and he's only played in the 4-3. And the most often mentioned OLB starter is a former basketball player/TE who's only played a couple years as a defensive player and none in the 3-4. And he's still rehabbing from last years season-ending
injury, so who knows when and if he ever recovers fully his former athletic prowess ? And maybe the biggest complication is knowing when and if we can
find players to help the transition without knowing when we can sign FAs
because of the Lockout/absense of a new CBA ?
So why would anybody really expect the Texans to have a winning-season and make the playoffs (and save Kubiaks job) in 2011 if it's unlikely that we can complete the transition to the 3-4 in one year ?
Click to expand...
What's the worst that can happen? Finish 32nd instead of 31st?

Besides, the next time you see the Texans play will be in 2012 so there is the 2 years.
 
IDEXAN said:
It's entirely different for Barwin, who's never played standing upright to any degree at all. It will be a major adjustment for him to make...
Click to expand...

Thankfully for us, this is where Gary's masterplan comes into play. Barwin is used to playing in space...he just did it as a tightend. The transition will be seamless. Why did we ever doubt his genuis?
 
I, pernsonally, think it could take some time. I hope the lockout ends soon so we could get the OTA's and training camp in. If not, they will have to learn on the run if lockout ends in Aug or Sep....and that not be advantageous for this team.....
 
Phillips has an especially difficult job right now, considering the unknowable variables like Connor Barwin's recovery status in the fall, and whether there is going to be any preseason practice available to implement and coach the new system. This transition may be more rough than his previous jobs.
 
Brisco_County said:
Phillips has an especially difficult job right now, considering the unknowable variables like Connor Barwin's recovery status in the fall, and whether there is going to be any preseason practice available to implement and coach the new system. This transition may be more rough than his previous jobs.
Click to expand...


Yes. Wade's gonna have a tough row to hoe. Draft heavy on that side and have no contact/coaching/learning. That's tough. Seems the offense takes a hit as well. I think Dickerson and Casey and others need work they won't get. That's a big deal too, to me. I may be wrong but it seems like some folks are projecting hitting on a bunch of draft picks that make a difference. I don't.

Call me names if ya want. I, like others, see this season as a pass for the whole staff. No matter who's fault it is for this year being different than any year since'87, it is. Not a strike this time. It's a lockout. Lay blame where you wish, fact is Matty and a few others played pitch-n-catch @ Rice today. They wouldn't have been there last year.

I'll wait and see. What else can ya do?
 
Hervoyel said:
Yeah but saying that was just a condition of employment. He probably doesn't think for a minute that the Texans really will need to win now. He's probably thinking that we got 2-3 years before his defense has to show results. By then Gary's gone and Wade's the HC in Houston. Dream job is a lock for him.
Click to expand...

All the politcal stuffs aside, what I gather from various pieces where Wade talks about defense and by learning his playbooks and compare them to what I saw from the Texans the last couple of years, the team can play right now and would not miss a beat with Wade as the DC.
By that I mean the players that we had last year were doing things the guys in Wade's system were doing.
The main difference is in the frequency each defensive front is used.
That and we probably won't see the Texans in a standard 4-3, even though I won't be surprised if Wade decide to use it; he's not a stranger to it.
(The Eagles played a 4-3 when Wade was there.)
 
Position specific, let's take the NT.
Cody, Mitchell, Okoye, and Smith had all manned this one for us at times the last couple of years (mitchell, as a rookie, only had one year of spot experience, but he did well and should only improve).

The NT in either system (Bush's or Wade's) is used the same way.
If there's any dissimilar, I didn't notice it.

Keep in mind that in both systems, at times, there's no NT; ie. no D-lineman lining up over the Center or shading outside the Center.
In another word, you could find two D-linemen over the Guards or shading the Guards, leaving the Center uncovered.
 
The so-called 4-3 DT can be found at various spots on the line as a 3-4 DE in Wade's system.

Cody, Mitchell, Okoye, Smith, Mario, (and others) have been found here, either in a 4-man or 3-man or 2-man front for the Texans. (Wade also uses the 2-man front).


Couple that with the fact that Wade often employs a 4-man front to go with his nickel and dime packages, it is untrue that Okoye does not fit in Wade's system.
 
Now, let's backtrack a little and talk about scheme for a moment.
The last couple of years, the Texans have incorporated more and more 3-man front into their scheme; whether a 3-4 or a 3-3 or some other variations.
The players are already acclimated to Wade's system.


On the other hand, the 3-man front that Wade employs can look like a 4-man Under front, Over Front, or Miami front (that the Texans used), with the only exception that one more guy on the edge take his hand off the ground.
(You can find this guy bending his knee more or rest his hand or elbow on his knee to keep his pad low - and that's pretty much the extent of the difference).
 
Guys like Mario, Smith, Anderson, Jamison, Barwin, Nading, etc. (besides our LBs) had played with their hands off the ground as a "true" 3-4 OLB in a true one-gap 3-4 scheme a la Wade.

Similarly, guys like Ware, Spencer, etc. had played with one hand on the ground as a DE in a "true" 4-3 DE in a one-gap 4-3 system like ours.
 
powda said:
everyone is preoccupied with a nose tackle and some Demarcus Ware type rush linebacker ,but i dont know that our front 7 is the problem. It wasnt the big issue last year.

until our secondary gets fixed all this 3-4 personel dosent even matter. A portion of the time we're going to be running a 4-3 anyway.
Click to expand...

What consistantly beat the Texans in the passing game last year was scheme related.


They always got burned with pass plays between the zones - especially between the corner and safety. 16 weeks in and they still didnt solve the problem.

Not having a LB who could cover a dead man with a blanket didnt help.


The other thing that killed them was misdirection plays .... that was more personel related as players didnt mind their responsibilities and or over persued.
 
That goes back to position specific; we have guys that played as true SOLB and WOLB in Wade's 3-4 scheme already, and they are plenty:
Mario, Smith, Nading, Barwin, Anderson, Jamison, Cushing, Adibi, Sharpton...

That is they played with their hands off the ground.

In many other instances, some of those guys can put a hand on the ground, but they still play the same role as a 3-4 OLB.
 
76Texan said:
All the politcal stuffs aside, what I gather from various pieces where Wade talks about defense and by learning his playbooks and compare them to what I saw from the Texans the last couple of years, the team can play right now and would not miss a beat with Wade as the DC.
By that I mean the players that we had last year were doing things the guys in Wade's system were doing.
The main difference is in the frequency each defensive front is used.
That and we probably won't see the Texans in a standard 4-3, even though I won't be surprised if Wade decide to use it; he's not a stranger to it.
(The Eagles played a 4-3 when Wade was there.)
Click to expand...

Think about what that means though if that's true.

"The players we had last year were doing things the guys in Wade's system were doing".

The big change is going to be the frequency each defensive front is used? I don't know what I was in such a state about. The Texans are already a year into his defense and he's only been here a couple of months! Now that's progress.

HolyFacePalm.jpg
 
Corrosion said:
What consistantly beat the Texans in the passing game last year was scheme related.


They always got burned with pass plays between the zones - especially between the corner and safety. 16 weeks in and they still didnt solve the problem.

Not having a LB who could cover a dead man with a blanket didnt help.


The other thing that killed them was misdirection plays .... that was more personel related as players didnt mind their responsibilities and or over persued.
Click to expand...

This will be the difference as Bush continued with Richard Smith's spot-drop soft zone instead of Wade's pattern matching zone.
It's a whole different animal that I'd like to address later.
(There are pluses and minuses in both, but how the players went about it for Bush were just incredibly terrible - and when all the guys were doing it, it goes back to coaching.)
 
Hervoyel said:
Think about what that means though if that's true.

"The players we had last year were doing things the guys in Wade's system were doing".

The big change is going to be the frequency each defensive front is used? I don't know what I was in such a state about. The Texans are already a year into his defense and he's only been here a couple of months! Now that's progress.
Click to expand...
When I rewatched the games after we hired Wade, the thought had crossed my mind. Holly cow! No wonder Wade seems to be very at ease in those talks.
Remember, we're talking about the front 7 here!
 
76Texan said:
This will be the difference as Bush continued with Richard Smith's spot-drop soft zone instead of Wade's pattern matching zone.
It's a whole different animal that I'd like to address later.
(There are pluses and minuses in both, but how the players went about it for Bush were just incredibly terrible - and when all the guys were doing it, it goes back to coaching.)
Click to expand...

Scheme related = Coaching ... The defensive coaches sucked almost as bad as Obama last season.


And no , its not better than Vista.
 
Dont worry there's no way the Texans will be as bad om defense as they were next yr.

BTW Wade cut his teeth as Oliers DL coach with HOF Bethea and NT Culp (who was one of the biggest baddest dudes in his day) RIP
 
Back to the scheme, in the Texans/Cowboys game, there was actually one time the Cowboys lined up in a 4-man front with a LB on the LOS.
The LB; however, moved back to the second level before the ball was snapped to make a standard 4-3 look for the defense.

Add that to the 46 Bear defense and the 5-man goal line front that Wade also uses, there wasn't anything in Wade's system (regarding the front 7) that the Texans defensive players haven't played themselves.
 
76Texan said:
Now, let's backtrack a little and talk about scheme for a moment.
The last couple of years, the Texans have incorporated more and more 3-man front into their scheme; whether a 3-4 or a 3-3 or some other variations.
The players are already acclimated to Wade's system.


On the other hand, the 3-man front that Wade employs can look like a 4-man Under front, Over Front, or Miami front (that the Texans used), with the only exception that one more guy on the edge take his hand off the ground.
(You can find this guy bending his knee more or rest his hand or elbow on his knee to keep his pad low - and that's pretty much the extent of the difference).
Click to expand...
This is all very reassuring 76Texan, to a degree. However when it comes to the front 7 the Texans are still short on established, game-proven OLBs. If Wade is gonna operate out of a base 3-4, he's still gonna need to get atleast 2 guys who are capable of rushing the QB from the edge, from an upright position. Untill he gets over that hurdle with his defense, I'm not as comfortable, not as confidant as I want to be with it.
 
IDEXAN said:
This is all very reassuring 76Texan, to a degree. However when it comes to the front 7 the Texans are still short on established, game-proven OLBs. If Wade is gonna operate out of a base 3-4, he's still gonna need to get atleast 2 guys who are capable of rushing the QB from the edge, from an upright position. Untill he gets over that hurdle with his defense, I'm not as comfortable, not as confidant as I want to be with it.
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And this is key because at least in Dallas, they were not a DB nor ILB blitz heavy scheme (in fact they were low percentge blizters from this positions). What pressure they got came primarily from the OLBs (Ware/spencer) and NT. Wade claims he can adjust his schmes to allow peronel to do what it does best, but there ae no proven guys at the spots has gotten pressure from in his last couple of stops.
 
76Texan said:
This will be the difference as Bush continued with Richard Smith's spot-drop soft zone instead of Wade's pattern matching zone.It's a whole different animal that I'd like to address later.
(There are pluses and minuses in both, but how the players went about it for Bush were just incredibly terrible - and when all the guys were doing it, it goes back to coaching.)
Click to expand...

The secondary was plain and simple the achillies heel of this team .... had they performed at a half rotten rate rather than an Obama rotten rate that team could have won the division with ease.



When a team gets beat by the same **** week in and week out , you have to look at the coaching staff and wonder why they havent made the neccessary adjustments.

I think Wade will be more aggressive with his defensive fronts but I also get the idea he can be much more creative with coverage schemes and disguise them a bit better while adjusting to those things that Smith wasnt able to do.

If the DB's can execute the matchup zone (Ugh there's that word again) I expect the front seven to make life miserable for the opponents - For once the Texans defense may dictate to the offense rather than being dictated to.

Outside of Kareem Jackson falling down so much .... I think the biggest issue with last seasons pass defense was the safety play. They were always out of position and routinely took piss poor angles. You dont have to explain to me why they are gonna spend next season elsewhere.

Right now they have Quinn , Jackson , Allen , McCain and McManis at the corners with .... Nolan and Demps as safeties. Nolan had some flashes last season but I dont think it was enough to count on him as a starter come opening day. They have to add at least three players at those spots between the draft and FA. Preferably with some NFL experience.

With FA coming after the draft , I expect some teams to overpay out of desperation to fill voids on their rosters ..... ugh.


Its not the front 7 Im worried about making the transition ..... its that secondary.

While I typed this post , Kareem Jackson fell down and tripped Texan Bill making him fall on a pepper plant.
 
IDEXAN said:
This is all very reassuring 76Texan, to a degree. However when it comes to the front 7 the Texans are still short on established, game-proven OLBs. If Wade is gonna operate out of a base 3-4, he's still gonna need to get atleast 2 guys who are capable of rushing the QB from the edge, from an upright position. Untill he gets over that hurdle with his defense, I'm not as comfortable, not as confidant as I want to be with it.
Click to expand...

I took a quick look at the second Colts game just by chance.
Out of the first 30 defensive plays, there were a few that I can't see the line-up at the snaps; for the other 27, I counted as followed:

- 13 times in 4-man front.
- 1 time in 3-man front, but Mario put his hand down at the last second.
- 11 times in 3-man front; the majority of them with Mario as an OLB; also Anderson got a sack from the OLB position.
- 2 times where nobody put their hands down; the Texans had 5 "LBs" on the LOS and came with all 5 on blitzes; how do you like that?
 
Yeah who cares whe sucked has a 4-3 team has well LOL


Looking back what went so wrong with our 4-3 D how did Our D regress from a 9-7 team to a 6-10 team ????
 
76Texan said:
I took a quick look at the second Colts game just by chance.
Out of the first 30 defensive plays, there were a few that I can't see the line-up at the snaps; for the other 27, I counted as followed:

- 13 times in 4-man front.
- 1 time in 3-man front, but Mario put his hand down at the last second.
- 11 times in 3-man front; the majority of them with Mario as an OLB; also Anderson got a sack from the OLB position.
- 2 times where nobody put their hands down; the Texans had 5 "LBs" on the LOS and came with all 5 on blitzes; how do you like that?
Click to expand...

For the rest of the game, the Texans continued to mix in different fronts.
I didn't keep the exact count, but they probably were in a 4-man front less than the combination of all other fronts (zero-DLineman, 2 or 3).
So there you have it, if you want an established 3-4 OLB, his name is Mario Williams. He played both SOLB abd WOLB.
The other guys like Anderson and Smith also saw time at OLB (as well as Cushing and Diles in this game).

Add that to the fact that Wade use a 4-man front in his nickel package (which is something the Texans did all the time for several years against Manning and the Colts), the fronts that we see in this game could very well be the same thing that Wade would use against an offense like the Colts.

Also, I pulled up the first game to take a quick look at Barwin because I just remember something.
And sure enough, it was there.
On one snap, Barwin was the WOLB; he went around the edge and got a little piece of Manning's arm as he stepped inti his throw, forcing the pass to be high.
Pollard caught the ball but was out of bound.

Barwin had come on late the year before, in many instances as an OLB.
I was expecting quite a bit out of him but then he got injured.
We missed his plays. Hopefully, it dosn't take too long for him to get back to his usual self.

The Texans also showed a lot of interest in Anderson.
And I think it's safer to go after his service than drafting an OLB in the first two rounds.
(The Texans can still do that, especially without a CBA).
But if they wait until the later rounds, it wouldn't surprised me one bit.

Is there any FA from the Cowboys roster that Wade and the Texans might pursue?
 
76Texan said:
Is there any FA from the Cowboys roster that Wade and the Texans might pursue?
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We've always had an issue with the pass rush. Barwin may have fixed that but Anderson didn't. I'm not comfy with either of those guys as the RLB.

The Cowboys defensive guys that are FA include:

Gerald Sensabaugh, SS
Stephen Bowen, DE/DT
Marcus Spears, DE
Jason Hatcher, DE/DT

Sensabaugh would be an improvement over Pollard but he's not going to set the world on fire. Marcus Spears isn't going to give us much in the pass rush and I can't see us going after him unless he really wants to play here and/or we move Smith.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
We've always had an issue with the pass rush. Barwin may have fixed that but Anderson didn't. I'm not comfy with either of those guys as the RLB.

The Cowboys defensive guys that are FA include:

Gerald Sensabaugh, SS
Stephen Bowen, DE/DT
Marcus Spears, DE
Jason Hatcher, DE/DT

Sensabaugh would be an improvement over Pollard but he's not going to set the world on fire. Marcus Spears isn't going to give us much in the pass rush and I can't see us going after him unless he really wants to play here and/or we move Smith.
Click to expand...

We can use Sensabaugh, and maybe even Spears (but he may want a little more money than Bob wants to pay and a long-term deal).

Anderson is an in-between player (a tweener 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB), I think he can be of more use as a 3-4 OLB; he tested well at the combine as far as flexibility of the hips to be able to drop back in coverage.
In Wade's scheme, the OLB seldom run with the TE anyway.
Anderson should be plenty fluid to drop back into zone coverage (matchup zone and not the zoft zone that the Texans ran.)

I think Jamison can help in the rotation at OLB as well; and don't forget Nading, who was Barwin's backup.

Besides, we also have Cushing, Adibi, and Sharpton, all of whom I think can bring something at OLB.
Also, I'd like to see what they can do with Keglar; that guy tested really well at the combine as well, and he looks to have potential in one of the PS game I watched - Titans/Saints.)

All I'm saying is that if the Texans were to play today (with Barwin somewhat healthy and Anderson in tow), Wade can't say that he doesn't have enough players on the front seven to make his scheme work.

As far as the long-term solutions, I haven't the slightest idea.
- Whether they keep rotating Mario between 9-tech, 7t, 6t, 5t, and 4t or move him permanently inside to play mostly as a 5-t outside the OT.
The way Wade has been talking about it, it seems like he wasn't sure one way or another either.
- Will Barwin come back 100%? If he does, he will be the rush OLB mostly from the weak side.

IMO, if they decide to move Mario permanently to the inside, then they would need another high-caliber OLB. Otherwise, it would be a wasted pick to draft a player in the first two rounds while we have other needs.
 
76Texan said:
IMO, if they decide to move Mario permanently to the inside, then they would need another high-caliber OLB. Otherwise, it would be a wasted pick to draft a player in the first two rounds while we have other needs.
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What I've been thinking about (and you've watched the tape on Wade's defense, so you may have a feel for this) is this: Instead of moving Cushing inside, put him on the outside as a SAM and then have Barwin/Anderson/Whoever play as a Rush LB, and then Demeco and Sharpton (or a draft pick) play the inside spots.

Is that feasible or is Cushing better suited to go inside in Wade's scheme? I know Wade has mentioned possibly moving him inside but what do you think will happen?
 
Norg said:
Yeah who cares whe sucked has a 4-3 team has well LOL


Looking back what went so wrong with our 4-3 D how did Our D regress from a 9-7 team to a 6-10 team ????
Click to expand...

What went wrong ? The Texans secondary's inability to cover a dead man with a blanket.


Everyone is putting such emphasis on the front seven when they performed pretty well last season - accept when there was a LB tasked with covering a TE or RB ....
Its the secondary thats broken , its the secondary that constantly got burned by the same **** from week 1 thru week 16. Just about any pass the opponents threw between the zones could be chalked up as a completion .... same thing with slant routes , its like they were inviting those plays expecting to capitalize on them ..... I cant recall a single one where they did.
 
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