If your Kubes how do you fix the secondary, realistically.

OK, the secondary seems to suck (understatement of the year), especially with zero pass rush.

Before I go any further let me start with two words, Troy Nolan. This is obvious, Wilson has to go.

However what can be done with the rest of the guys realistically?

Some of it seems to be the cover two scheme, but does the roster fit another scheme? Is it all scheme, or all personell?

Should KJ be benched, and GQ, and Brice be the starters?

Where do Molden, and Mcmanis fit in at this point?

What are the odds Frank Bush pulls a rabbit out of his hat in week four until week 17 like he did last year with the pass the way he did the run?



Is there an outside chance that this was a fluke three weeks?

-Manning was excusable, Indy was behind the entire game and after all it was the Forehead playing....
-McNabb is a little more troubling as I think he's past his prime, and his recievers could keep the Skins under the Cap if there were one because part of their salary is from Social Freaking Security!!! This one hurts.
-Romo is somewhat understandable because he can put up big numbers at times, and he has a tone of weapons. What bothers me is they played horrible until they showed up at Reliant, and Roy Williams looked like a #1 WR for once.



I think we will learn a lot this week. The Raiders are running the ball well, so if we stop the run we could get exposed in the passing game. If Gradkowski puts 300 yards up, it may be time to panic! If we stiflle the run and the pass, maybe, just maybe it was a fluke to be that bad defending the pass for three straight games. Obviousley it won't be definative if we contain the Oakland passing attach, but at least it will be encouraging that we can stop something or someone. Otherwise we should just count on the Fed Ex Air Award to go to who ever plays the Texans each week.


Just wanted to verbalize all my thoughts. I know I have not provided any meanigful insight, but perhaps I'm playing the Watson to someones Holmes.....


By the way can we get a Frank Bush and/or David Gibbs face palm smiley?????


Edit: yes I know it should be "you're" in the title thread sorry.....

I would keep starting Kareem Jackson and Glover Quin at corner. I truly believe they both just need more experience, and the growing pains are what I expected, and most fans are just too impatient.

I like Troy Nolan, and would probably have him split time with Eugene Wilson just to see how he compares.

I'd also test out Molden in certain situations to see how he compares as well.

Kareem & Glover until the sun burns out. Sit Wilson and throw Nolan in there for a while. Possibly he takes off and keeps the job. Maybe it just motivates Wilson to play harder and smarter.

I think if you (meaning Gary, Frank, and Rick) are sure beyond a doubt that Kareem and Glover are your guys then you have to play them as long as it takes, barring a complete collapse in the secondary. If you aren't sure that they're your guys then why in the hell are we in the season without any reasonable alternatives?

I'd also start trying to work Molden into the mix to see if there's any good reason to keep him past this season.

I think something needs to be done with Molden. He has all this potential and yet we never see him on the field, mainly due to injuries. I'm tired of him wasting a roster spot without really contributing much. Maybe he does more then I actually notice, but I would like to see him get thrown in there, see what he can do, and then make a decision on him.

I've been thinking that we might want to start Pollard and Cushing at the CB spots. I'd tell them to knock the **** out of the WR at the LOS. A WR can't run a route if he's laying on the ground trying to remember his name.

You fix the secondary by firing Bob McNair.

Big Lou said:

OK, the secondary seems to suck (understatement of the year), especially with zero pass rush.

Before I go any further let me start with two words, Troy Nolan. This is obvious, Wilson has to go.

However what can be done with the rest of the guys realistically?

Click to expand...

Realistically, I'd keep doing what we're doing. Looked like more Nickle, & we gave up less than 300 yards passing. 36% on third down. Miles Austin 2 catches for 20 yards. So there is some good stuff happening here, some good to work with.

GQ is our best corner. Keep him on the 1s.
KJ only made a few mistakes work on those, keep throwing him out there.
Molden.... activate him. McCain is a fine corner, Dallas' receivers are too big, too physical. Molden should have been in the game period.

I'd also think about using 6 DBs at times. Bring both Barber & Pollard in the box, Drop Molden & Nolan as my safeties.

Cushing and Ryans at the LB spots.

Use the open spot for a nickel d-back: Make Jackson the nickel back in that scenario, slide in McCain at the CB spot that Jackson vacates.

I think KJ needs to get some confidence, and putting him out there by himself is not exactly working well for us right now. You let him play nickel so that he can basically get in on plays and ballhawk. That's what he does well. But he can't do that, IMO, because he's freaking out and overthinking things to the point that he doesn't want to try and "play"...he seems, to me, to want to stay safe and try to not get burned.

Pollard stays at Strong Safety, but Eugene needs to sit some plays out. At this point, Frank Bush has gotta' make an impression and change up the Free Safety duties...for the sake of the team's psyche. Those other guys are busting their butts in camp and in preseason for two reasons: Payday and playday. You have to let some of those other guys get their shots at this point. You never know who just might step up and deliver.

That's my big gripe about the Kubiak-led Texans. He's always wayyyyy too slow to demand a HUGE change in the depth chart. There's like this magical 3-game window with Kubiak, whereby you're going to see the same lineup for the first three games come Hell or high water.

I mean, good grief! Make a change. Make a change every other possession until you find a guy who wants to win that spot and make plays. Show them that anybody can get a shot if they just loosen up and play, instead of having the paralysis by analysis (thinking instead of reacting).

thunderkyss said:

I'd also think about using 6 DBs at times. Bring both Barber & Pollard in the box, Drop Molden & Nolan as my safeties.

Click to expand...

So does that mean we go with a 3-man defensive line?

Mario, Smith, and Amobi.

Cushing and Ryans.

And the 6 DB formation you mentioned? That totals 11.

3-2-6 (using Cushing and Ryans more in the role of extra d-linemen, to thwart the run and cover the stuff that slips by the 3 linemen.). That would mean we could effectively use DBs to double-team two of a team's receivers, leaving two safeties to roam and cover, too. Or only double ONE of the receivers, and use zone or man on the others. Man, we could double the TE with a couple of those DBs and really allow Cushing and Ryans to make hay out there (since they wouldn't have to shadow the TE and potentially get outran).

Seems like an exotic lineup that might really throw a wrench in the opposing team's passing game. You could keep lots of stuff, such as draw plays and slants IN FRONT OF YOU--big time--if we went to that sort of lineup.

You know how you help a young secondary.. GET PRESSURE on the QB, I don't care if you have to take your helmet off and throw it at the QB, get him uncomfortable, find a way to hit him and get his timing off period..

GP said:

Seems like an exotic lineup that might really throw a wrench in the opposing team's passing game. You could keep lots of stuff, such as draw plays and slants IN FRONT OF YOU--big time--if we went to that sort of lineup.

Click to expand...

Just seems like an exotic way to keep the QB back there all day passing.. 3 man fronts are not going to get pressure on the QB..

Now that Barwin is out it means if Mario has an off day (like last week), QBs are gonna have ample time to throw the ball... until Cushing returns.

As suggested in the other thread, use Slayton as trade bait with Green Bay.

Step 1. Sit Wilson down.
Step 2. McCain is the new FS, his speed will allow the defense to have it's centerfielder. Help will be "over the top" and not "to the side 15 yards away".
Step 3. Nolan/Barber tag in for Pollard in 3rd/long.
Step 4. Molden/McMannis/Wall battle it out for nickelback. If Molden gets hurt he gets cut.
Step 5. Keep corners within 5 yards of the LOS at all times. Safeties within 30
Step 6. Knock the piss outta somebody!!!

Ideally, you (1) make a trade for a starting CB and (2) move Quin to FS.

Realistically, you probably replace Wilson with Barber and/or Nolan and give Molden some more playing time.

What I found interesting was that they opted to sign Paymah over bringing Reeves back in. Maybe Paymah can provide some return.

GP said:

So does that mean we go with a 3-man defensive line?

Mario, Smith, and Amobi.

Cushing and Ryans.

And the 6 DB formation you mentioned? That totals 11.

3-2-6 (using Cushing and Ryans more in the role of extra d-linemen, to thwart the run and cover the stuff that slips by the 3 linemen.). That would mean we could effectively use DBs to double-team two of a team's receivers, leaving two safeties to roam and cover, too. Or only double ONE of the receivers, and use zone or man on the others. Man, we could double the TE with a couple of those DBs and really allow Cushing and Ryans to make hay out there (since they wouldn't have to shadow the TE and potentially get outran).

Seems like an exotic lineup that might really throw a wrench in the opposing team's passing game. You could keep lots of stuff, such as draw plays and slants IN FRONT OF YOU--big time--if we went to that sort of lineup.

Click to expand...

Wow, you put more thought into than I did. That sounds interesting to me.

I was thinking more for the next game against Oakland only. Cushing is out & our LBs can't cover. I would keep the 4 man front, Demeco at MLB. Barber & Pollard would play as undersized LBs who cover better than our LBs. Quin is still on the one. KJ is on the twos. Molden (because of his size) is our SS, Nolan is our FS.

Pollard would stay at or around the line, Barber, Nolan, & Molden would really be interchangeable.

silvrhand said:

Just seems like an exotic way to keep the QB back there all day passing.. 3 man fronts are not going to get pressure on the QB..

Click to expand...

In his scenario, Cushing & Ryans would play OLB.. it would be like a 3-4, with Pollard & Barber on the inside.

thunderkyss said:

In his scenario, Cushing & Ryans would play OLB.. it would be like a 3-4, with Pollard & Barber on the inside.

Click to expand...

Still would not think that allows us to get any pressure, we just aren't an exotic blitz package team... What I would pay for an attacking defense, such as the steelers..

silvrhand said:

Just seems like an exotic way to keep the QB back there all day passing.. 3 man fronts are not going to get pressure on the QB..

Click to expand...

Not if you have two LBers coming on delayed blitzes. You could blitz one LB and keep the other LB shadowing the RB. You could sit both them at the snap, then let them come free on a double blitz right through a gap in the defensive line. You could drop Cushing at the snap and bring Ryans AND Pollard on a blitz. I think it could be VERY exotic.

This sort of lineup would be brutal on the two LBers, asking them to take on offensive linemen on a regular basis...having to sift through the blockers to contain a run up the middle or to the edge.

The emphasis is to have more of the field covered by DBs, reducing the voids where a WR can sit down and catch those slants or other quick pass routes. You're going to have Pollard hammering anything that gets thrown just past the LBers. And you have the two LBers in that same area, prepared to take out the short stuff too.

Essentially, we'd be using Pollard as a LB since he likes to hit people violently...but he has better mobility and better coverage skills than a LB, too, so it gives us a chance if passes are not on target or get deflected.

Let's face it though, we're not going to see anything radically different out there. This defense doesn't look the same as it did last year.

Maybe Okoye is more valuable to what we do than I realize. We had Okoye, Cushing, and Duane Brown out vs. the Cowboys. That's three players who bring value to the table on game day. And no Barwin.

Trenches, man. Trenches.

If we can't get a pass rush on the QB, you gotta' go with something else to compensate for it. Making the QB hesitate and cycle through his progressions for too long, IMO, would allow our linemen and LBers to get to the QB. If they can't get there, we're going to make the WR or RB pay dearly because we'll enough men to lay a solid hit on the guy just as he catches the ball.

YAC is killing this defense right now.

We have never been near the middle or the top in the league on front 7 pressure, until that changes our defense is not going to get better IMHO. It's like having a bad offensive line and watching what happens to your running/passing game..

GP said:

Maybe Okoye is more valuable to what we do than I realize. We had Okoye, Cushing, and Duane Brown out vs. the Cowboys. That's three players who bring value to the table on game day. And no Barwin.

Trenches, man. Trenches.

Click to expand...

Even with a 3-man front, that opposing QB (if he sees 8 defensive guys buzzing around the areas he wants to throw the ball to) is going to pull the ball down, dance around, hesitate due to the 8 guys covering those voids, and eventually the offensive linemen are going to lose contain and/or have to hold a d-linemen as the play gets strung out.

Offensive linemen can't hold their ground forever. At some point, they lose a sense of understanding in terms of where the QB is and which way to move to protect him.

A smart d-linemen would fake out the blocker by moving to the right, as if the QB were moving that way on a scramble, then cut back to the left (sharply) where the QB actually is standing/scrambling.

What I see right now, more than anything else, is this defense reading and reacting instead of playing on instinct. Sure, the draw play is supposedly taking advantage of us racing upfield toward the QB...but I am not so sure I buy that. I fault the LBers for not lending support (they seem to be playing zone or something, instead of disrupting plays at the very beginning).

TexCanada said:

I think something needs to be done with Molden. He has all this potential and yet we never see him on the field, mainly due to injuries. I'm tired of him wasting a roster spot without really contributing much. Maybe he does more then I actually notice, but I would like to see him get thrown in there, see what he can do, and then make a decision on him.

Click to expand...

Hopefully we can jump on Raiders quickly and move Molden in and evaluate him. We need this game as a W.

TimeKiller said:

Step 1. Sit Wilson down.
Step 2. McCain is the new FS, his speed will allow the defense to have it's centerfielder. Help will be "over the top" and not "to the side 15 yards away".
Step 3. Nolan/Barber tag in for Pollard in 3rd/long.
Step 4. Molden/McMannis/Wall battle it out for nickelback. If Molden gets hurt he gets cut.
Step 5. Keep corners within 5 yards of the LOS at all times. Safeties within 30
Step 6. Knock the piss outta somebody!!!

Click to expand...

Looks like an excellent lineup on Madden, but in real life the nuances of
each position are extremely important.

It feels like, to me, that the three areas (D-Linemen, LBers, and DBs) are all playing independently of one another. As if they are three separate groups doing their own assignments and not knowing how the other two groups of players are doing things. Confusion and isolation, in other words.

We need that cohesiveness we had during the Cardinalspreseason game. Yes, I know: The Cardinals are not too terribly wonderful of an offense back when they had our now-3rd string QB Leinart. But we were flowing and on the same page in that game.

It has to get better.

GP said:

It feels like, to me, that the three areas (D-Linemen, LBers, and DBs) are all playing independently of one another.

Click to expand...

This is what happened during the entire tenure of Richard Smith. This
defense has reverted back to its old tricks, and that's good for 27th
or 28th in the league if they keep it up.

silvrhand said:

We have never been near the middle or the top in the league on front 7 pressure, until that changes our defense is not going to get better IMHO. It's like having a bad offensive line and watching what happens to your running/passing game..

Click to expand...

I think it's more a matter of degrees. I'd really like to know where you are getting that we haven't been "near the middle, or the top of the league" in pressures. I know we don't get the sacks, but I would bet we are close to the middle, if not over the middle in pressure from our front 4.

We were able to get enough pressure on the Cowboys to force them into 8 man protection. They don't do that for the heck of it.

We drop 6 or 7 men to cover 2 guys, and they still find an open spot. & it's not like Tony was buying time to do it. Three steps, & the ball was out.

We might not have the best 4 man rush in the league, but when it's that easy to find an open receiver, then the back end has got to do it's job.

thunderkyss said:

I think it's more a matter of degrees. I'd really like to know where you are getting that we haven't been "near the middle, or the top of the league" in pressures. I know we don't get the sacks, but I would bet we are close to the middle, if not over the middle in pressure from our front 4.

We were able to get enough pressure on the Cowboys to force them into 8 man protection. They don't do that for the heck of it.

Click to expand...

I disagree, they kept max protect cause the cowboys have been having protection problems all year long.

nero THE zero said:

Ideally, you (1) make a trade for a starting CB and (2) move Quin to FS.

Realistically, you probably replace Wilson with Barber and/or Nolan and give Molden some more playing time.

What I found interesting was that they opted to sign Paymah over bringing Reeves back in. Maybe Paymah can provide some return.

Click to expand...

Quinn has been our best CB, so moving him makes no real sense.

TimeKiller said:

Step 1. Sit Wilson down.
Step 2. McCain is the new FS, his speed will allow the defense to have it's centerfielder. Help will be "over the top" and not "to the side 15 yards away".
Step 3. Nolan/Barber tag in for Pollard in 3rd/long.
Step 4. Molden/McMannis/Wall battle it out for nickelback. If Molden gets hurt he gets cut.
Step 5. Keep corners within 5 yards of the LOS at all times. Safeties within 30
Step 6. Knock the piss outta somebody!!!

Click to expand...

McCain is way too small for FS.

DexmanC said:

Looks like an excellent lineup on Madden, but in real life the nuances of
each position are extremely important.

Click to expand...

BigBull17 said:

McCain is way too small for FS.

Click to expand...

I'm just getting the best players on the field. I don't see how you could be worried about his tackling at FS but not at CB...

TheRealJoker said:

Now that Barwin is out it means if Mario has an off day (like last week), QBs are gonna have ample time to throw the ball... until Cushing returns.

Click to expand...

Sept. 18, 2007

Joker, that is indeed a really long time. I sure hope this is our (and your) year. That GWB gotta be up there by now!

TimeKiller said:

I'm just getting the best players on the field. I don't see how you could be worried about his tackling at FS but not at CB...

Click to expand...

I just think it is a durability thing. McCain is a little bit too small, IMO. Moulden or McMannins would be better at FS.

Re: If your Kubes how do you fix the secondary, realistically.

Click to expand...

Duct tape and bailing wire

HOU-TEX said:

Duct tape and bailing wire

Click to expand...

Dunno, man. I usually roll with zip ties and, where applicable, hose clamps.

I am not going to sit here and pontificate on how he should fix the secondary. I'm not a coach, former player, current player, or GM. I'm just a guy. But I'm also a guy that can look at our secondary's play to date and come to the conclusion that "Wow - we suck."

Now, that said, what I find disheartening is the resistance to change the Gary seems to exhibit.... the secondary isn't playing well as it stands now but I bet we don't see any big changes anytime soon. That doesn't seem to be Kubes' MO. Maybe he doesn't feel like he has better options than what is back there now. Maybe he thinks that the players back there need more time. Maybe he's loyal to a damn fault. I don't know the answer.

I do know that the secondary play hasn't improved in three weeks. I keep going back to Einstein's definition of insanity when I think of Kubes' style - "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

This ain't working, Gary. Throw us a curve and start tweaking something.

BigBull17 said:

I just think it is a durability thing. McCain is a little bit too small, IMO. Molden or McMannins would be better at FS.

Click to expand...

Yeah right. Dude has received more attention for doing nothing than anyone ever, ever, ever.

TimeKiller said:

Yeah right. Dude has received more attention for doing nothing than anyone ever, ever, ever.

Click to expand...

Molden is the Boselli of cornerbacks.

I wouldnt have never gone into a playoff type season with all my corners with 2 yrs or less experience. They couldve had cromartie for a 5th or sheldon brown for nothing or even ken lucas as a cheap free agent. Not to mention releasing reeves to keep molden. I also thought they should have moved bennett to free safety.

DexmanC said:

Molden is the Boselli of cornerbacks.

Click to expand...

No.

Molden has actually played.

Fix the secondary:

Find a better FS than Wilson be it Barber or Nolan.

Kareem gets more experience.

Insert Cushing.

Continue to get good pressure on opposing QB's.

That's pretty much all I'd do.

Switch to a 3-3-5 defense, duh! Or we can use Pollard as a "bandit"-backer similar to what Texas Tech does.

Hervoyel said:

Kareem & Glover until the sun burns out. Sit Wilson and throw Nolan in there for a while. Possibly he takes off and keeps the job. Maybe it just motivates Wilson to play harder and smarter.

I think if you (meaning Gary, Frank, and Rick) are sure beyond a doubt that Kareem and Glover are your guys then you have to play them as long as it takes, barring a complete collapse in the secondary. If you aren't sure that they're your guys then why in the hell are we in the season without any reasonable alternatives?

I'd also start trying to work Molden into the mix to see if there's any good reason to keep him past this season.

Click to expand...

I agree they need more time to develop even though on Sundays they having me doing this or more than this

But how many pieces of toast do they have to be before we consider it a "complete collapse". Half a loaf (6 games) or a whole loaf (8+)?

DexmanC said:

Molden is the Boselli of cornerbacks.

Click to expand...

That's a low blow man.....

DexmanC said:

Molden is the Boselli of cornerbacks.

Click to expand...

Rey said:

No.

Molden has actually played.

Click to expand...

Ok. Molden is the Mark Prior of cornerbacks.

Put KJ on his natural side, the right. Worth a shot....just try it.

Raf said:

Put KJ on his natural side, the right. Worth a shot....just try it.

Click to expand...

The right side is where the #2 receiver usually lines up. They want KJ
on the opponent's best receiver.

DexmanC said:

The right side is where the #2 receiver usually lines up. They want KJ
on the opponent's best receiver.

Click to expand...

You sure about that? I thought Quinn's our #1 and thus covers the #1 and K.J. our #2 and therefore covers the #2. Quinn lines up right, K.J. left.

Offense's right side is our defense's left. Offense's left side is our D's right side.

Raf said:

You sure about that? I thought Quinn's our #1 and thus covers the #1 and K.J. our #2 and therefore covers the #2. Quinn lines up right, K.J. left.

Offense's right side is our defense's left. Offense's left side is our D's right side.

Click to expand...

For what its worth, I remember reading somewhere that KJ was playing on the opposite side from what he was used to in college so that backs up where Raf was going, methinks.

I'll see if I can dig up the source.

"But Savage also identified a few factors that might have been overlooked. First, Jackson primarily manned the right side in college, taking away the quarterback's primary option. With the Texans, he's had to adjust to playing on the left side."

link

The best thing Kubiak can do to help his young defensive secondary out is to get more pressure on the QB. Aside from Mario, no one seems to be able to bring the QB down and seriously bang him up. We start hitting the QB and he's gonna make mistakes in the passing game, which hopefully the young CBs can take advantage of.

Another thing we can do is that, if our defensive line can keep the linemen from getting to the second level, we could have an OLB who can cover basically fall back into coverage and have the safeties up top help the corners as they backpedal.

Something like this perhaps:

Texan4Ever said:

Click to expand...

Okay, I'll bite. If you're doing that, doesn't that set you up for the draw play similar to what Dallas did to us?

drewmar74 said:

Okay, I'll bite. If you're doing that, doesn't that set you up for the draw play similar to what Dallas did to us?

Click to expand...

It would but what I would do is have DeMeco Ryans stand across from the center behind our DT and scan the offense. He is a solid tackler so I wouldn't mind dropping our two OLBs and the DBs into coverage while leaving him on his own to make the tackle. Also, I would have our d-line clog up all the gaps to prevent any attempts to run through the guards and force the RB to the outside and hope that our defense can react quickly and cover the RB up.

We could also give the 4-2-5 defensive formation a try once Brian Cushing comes back. Have Pollard become a third linebacker who drops into medium coverage when needed.

DexmanC said:

The right side is where the #2 receiver usually lines up. They want KJ
on the opponent's best receiver.

Click to expand...

Honestly, every time I've see him get Kjax get handled it's been by a number two or three receiver.

I mostly see GQ on the other teams #1.