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KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

The Joyner stuff tickles the Geek in me. I have not bothered to look, but on point #2 I would be interested to see if YoY stats for our defense on Big Plays and Red Zone efficiency went up with the down tick in rushing attempts.

IIRC, last year we were doing well on three and outs which was an encouraging stat.
 
I don't care much for thoughtful analysis. Not really my strength.

Can we please get back to the business of wild speculation and uninformed opinions?

Seriously, though: I enjoyed reading your post. Well done!

Antonio Smith has the highest percentage for winning the battle against the offensive lineman in front of him. And Okoye's lagging in that stat category. Seems to line up with the board's overall speculative impression that Smith was doing a pretty good job (even though he wasn't racking up sacks) and Okoye was not.

So perhaps Smithiak feels they can force teams to get into have-to-pass mode, as you mentioned in your post, which then makes our defense reliant upon pass rush & pass coverage. Seems logical enough.
 
I am more than a little dubious on their stats on double teams. Conventional set with 5 OLmen and 4 DLmen someone is getting doubled teamed each play and that is without accounting for a TE. The Texans had 953 defensive plays last year. He has Cody and Okoye facing a total of 75 double teams. Somehow I doubt Williams, Smith and Zgonina faced 872 double teams. Again not even accounting for a TE participating in a 2nd double team on a play.
 
Well ... I've taken it upon myself to unlock the DT mystery . :cow:

First it helps if they have the magical 70 point or above workout score .

35 reps bench
30 inch vertical
9 ft broad jump
= 74

Second is that you need a 1.70 or less in the 10 yd split .

Third is you need a motor .

Now the tricky part is , if you don't have the motor , 1 and 2 don't matter . Of course this is a general statement and not 100% accurate but it would improve your chances IMMO .
 
infantrycak said:
I am more than a little dubious on their stats on double teams. Conventional set with 5 OLmen and 4 DLmen someone is getting doubled teamed each play and that is without accounting for a TE. The Texans had 953 defensive plays last year. He has Cody and Okoye facing a total of 75 double teams. Somehow I doubt Williams, Smith and Zgonina faced 872 double teams. Again not even accounting for a TE participating in a 2nd double team on a play.
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Why do you doubt that?

On running plays, I doubt they'd double team on every defensive snap. A lot of lineman will immediately move up to the next level and try and block a linebacker.

On passing plays, if I was playing the Texans, there are only 2 defensive lineman I would ever double team: Williams and Smith.
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
Well ... I've taken it upon myself to unlock the DT mystery . :cow:

First it helps if they have the magical 70 point or above workout score .

35 reps bench
30 inch vertical
9 ft broad jump
= 74

Second is that you need a 1.70 or less in the 10 yd split .

Third is you need a motor .

Now the tricky part is , if you don't have the motor , 1 and 2 don't matter . Of course this is a general statement and not 100% accurate but it would improve your chances IMMO .
Click to expand...

And the fourth part is being drafted over Darrell Revis and Patrick Willis
 
I bought Joyner's book after 2004. Among other things, he predicted that Kyle Boller and David Carr were going to be the two next great QBs. Not Kidding! I really liked his material until it consistently led to poor conclusions.
 
infantrycak said:
I am more than a little dubious on their stats on double teams. Conventional set with 5 OLmen and 4 DLmen someone is getting doubled teamed each play and that is without accounting for a TE. The Texans had 953 defensive plays last year. He has Cody and Okoye facing a total of 75 double teams. Somehow I doubt Williams, Smith and Zgonina faced 872 double teams. Again not even accounting for a TE participating in a 2nd double team on a play.
Click to expand...

Haven't read the article, but couldn't double teams also count with a RB chipping or blocking in the backfield? If a tackle is getting beat but a RB steps up and helps, wouldn't that be a double team.
 
Oh man, this stuff gets interesting. gtexan... if only we knew a statitician that could help us out. Make a call up to cambridge, we've got a thesis idea! lol

I've found conflicting number of plays against the Texans. 974 and 944 from nfl.com and 953 from cak... I'm gonna go with 950 for simplicity purposes.

950 snaps, Okoye/Cody account for 75 double teams. We're assuming there is a double team on every play. If we boil it down to just Mario and Antonio as getting those doubles that is 875 double teams for the season; 54 per game... or 27 double teams for each in each game. So at 59 snaps per game, Mario and Smith were each doubled about half the time? They play the majority of all the snaps, so another way to think about it is that they are, on average, double teamed on half their plays? This also doesn't account for any times Zgonina, Deljuan, Barwin are in the game so they will bring their avg. down slightly but not a lot... still above 25 doubles per game on average I would think.

I don't know what to think of that. It seems high but I guess it could be close? This also assumes that there is in fact a double on every play, some plays there might be a LB or S coming up... or the OL may go to the 2nd level withough blocking the DL so, really I doubt there is a double team on every play. I don't even know what to think anymore. :boogereater:
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
Oh man, this stuff gets interesting. gtexan... if only we knew a statitician that could help us out. Make a call up to cambridge, we've got a thesis idea! lol

I've found conflicting number of plays against the Texans. 974 and 944 from nfl.com and 953 from cak... I'm gonna go with 950 for simplicity purposes.

950 snaps, Okoye/Cody account for 75 double teams. We're assuming there is a double team on every play. If we boil it down to just Mario and Antonio as getting those doubles that is 875 double teams for the season; 54 per game... or 27 double teams for each in each game. So at 59 snaps per game, Mario and Smith were each doubled about half the time? They play the majority of all the snaps, so another way to think about it is that they are, on average, double teamed on half their plays? This also doesn't account for any times Zgonina, Deljuan, Barwin are in the game so they will bring their avg. down slightly but not a lot... still above 25 doubles per game on average I would think.

I don't know what to think of that. It seems high but I guess it could be close? This also assumes that there is in fact a double on every play, some plays there might be a LB or S coming up... or the OL may go to the 2nd level withough blocking the DL so, really I doubt there is a double team on every play. I don't even know what to think anymore. :boogereater:
Click to expand...

Yup, so you've got:

Subs that take double teams (Barwin, Bulman, Okam, etc)
Screens where the DL are released (no double teams there)
Runs in which OL immediately move to the next level
Safeties and Linebackers who blitz getting blocked by an available OL
Pass/run plays where one OL blocks no one (as performed by our OL sometimes)

Zgonina, Smith, and Williams were our 3 highest rated defensive lineman according to that other site.

Its not inconceivable that the numbers for Okoye and Cody were correct.

I see what icak is getting at though. If you simply watch the games, Williams rushes from the outside a lot. Its basically impossible to double team an edge rusher
 
infantrycak said:
I am more than a little dubious on their stats on double teams. Conventional set with 5 OLmen and 4 DLmen someone is getting doubled teamed each play UNLESS YOUR OLINE INCLUDES CHRIS MYERS and that is without accounting for a TE. The Texans had 953 defensive plays last year. He has Cody and Okoye facing a total of 75 double teams. Somehow I doubt Williams, Smith and Zgonina faced 872 double teams. Again not even accounting for a TE participating in a 2nd double team on a play.
Click to expand...

Fixed it for ya'...

We have a 4 OL set, not 5.
 
The1ApplePie said:
And the fourth part is being drafted over Darrell Revis and Patrick Willis
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As were Jamarcus Russell, Jamaal Anderson, Ted Ginn Jr.... and Adam Carriker was just traded to the Redskins (Rams moved up 28 spots in the 5th and down 3 in the 7th)! Okoye looks like a Pro Bowler compared to those guys.. LOL
 
gtexan02 said:
Why do you doubt that?

On running plays, I doubt they'd double team on every defensive snap. A lot of lineman will immediately move up to the next level and try and block a linebacker.
Click to expand...

I disagree that on any significant number of plays a OLmen clears the DL clean and is not counted as blocking. In addition TEs frequently block which would lead to two double teams on a play and that is a lot more common than OLmen clearing the DL clean.

BullNation4Life said:
Haven't read the article, but couldn't double teams also count with a RB chipping or blocking in the backfield? If a tackle is getting beat but a RB steps up and helps, wouldn't that be a double team.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't count subsequent blocks as being double teamed but don't know if Joyner did.

Ole Miss Texan said:
Oh man, this stuff gets interesting. gtexan... if only we knew a statitician that could help us out. Make a call up to cambridge, we've got a thesis idea! lol

I've found conflicting number of plays against the Texans. 974 and 944 from nfl.com and 953 from cak... I'm gonna go with 950 for simplicity purposes.

950 snaps, Okoye/Cody account for 75 double teams. We're assuming there is a double team on every play. If we boil it down to just Mario and Antonio as getting those doubles that is 875 double teams for the season; 54 per game... or 27 double teams for each in each game. So at 59 snaps per game, Mario and Smith were each doubled about half the time? They play the majority of all the snaps, so another way to think about it is that they are, on average, double teamed on half their plays? This also doesn't account for any times Zgonina, Deljuan, Barwin are in the game so they will bring their avg. down slightly but not a lot... still above 25 doubles per game on average I would think.

I don't know what to think of that. It seems high but I guess it could be close? This also assumes that there is in fact a double on every play, some plays there might be a LB or S coming up... or the OL may go to the 2nd level withough blocking the DL so, really I doubt there is a double team on every play. I don't even know what to think anymore. :boogereater:
Click to expand...

Weird on the numbers. I thought I went to NFL.com but I see 974 there now. Anyhoo...

Good breakdown and yes it shows it is theoretically possible. Of course it would belie some of the assertions around here that Mario or Smith rarely command a double team since one of them would be getting it on basically every play.

As someone noted as well, edge rushers such as Mario when he wants to and Barwin are often very difficult to double team - particularly unless you want to get the TE involved which again would bring up the numbers.

Safety and corner blitzes are mainly to the outside and picked up by a RB. Yes there are LB blitzes up the middle but they are mainly picked up as a 2nd block after somebody (often on a double team) releases their block of a DLmen.
 
If the Texans wanted a space-eater, they had a great chance to grab one in Dan Williams who surprisingly was still on the Board for them, so I wonder, were they that desperate to draft a corner in the first-round or did they just not like Willams very much ? We'll never know I suppose.
 
IDEXAN said:
If the Texans wanted a space-eater, they had a great chance to grab one in Dan Williams who surprisingly was still on the Board for them, so I wonder, were they that desperate to draft a corner in the first-round or did they just not like Willams very much ? We'll never know I suppose.
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A lot of teams needing DT passed on Williams.
 
dalemurphy said:
I bought Joyner's book after 2004. Among other things, he predicted that Kyle Boller and David Carr were going to be the two next great QBs. Not Kidding! I really liked his material until it consistently led to poor conclusions.
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Actually, Carr had a pretty good 2004 until they played Denver and teams realized that he was worthless against Cover-2. Look back at the numbers. Then for a lot of reasons, the team fell apart because the defense got old and gone and couldn't keep it together for the conservative brand of ball they played, and the offense was a mish-mash of philosophies that didn't work.
 
IDEXAN said:
If the Texans wanted a space-eater, they had a great chance to grab one in Dan Williams who surprisingly was still on the Board for them, so I wonder, were they that desperate to draft a corner in the first-round or did they just not like Willams very much ? We'll never know I suppose.
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Texans have had several chances the past few years in the draft and FA to grab a space eating DT.

From the looks of things they want smaller, gap penetrating type DTs. Not the way I'd necessarily do it, but looks like that's their philosophy and we'll see next year if they get it to work finally.
 
Texans_Chick said:
A lot of teams needing DT passed on Williams.
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You're right of course, as did other first-rounders Dez Brant & OT Bulaga fall much further than expected. And even though the Texans weren't in the market for another OLineman this season (atleast not in the first round), Bulaga had to be temping ?
But if you watched the Senior-Bowl you know that Williams was very impressive, all week long in practice and during the game, especially when he was going head-up against 17th overall pick Mike Iupati.
 
Texans_Chick said:
Actually, Carr had a pretty good 2004 until they played Denver and teams realized that he was worthless against Cover-2. Look back at the numbers. Then for a lot of reasons, the team fell apart because the defense got old and gone and couldn't keep it together for the conservative brand of ball they played, and the offense was a mish-mash of philosophies that didn't work.
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I think the coaching staff shut the passing game down after Indy. HWWNBN started off the year with 9 straight games of at least 200 yards with 2 over 300. Then he went to Indy and threw 3 picks. Boom. Done with passing and he only broke 200 in 5 of his next 23 games. Teams also figured out he couldn't see inside the hashmarks.
 
Goldensilence said:
Texans have had several chances the past few years in the draft and FA to grab a space eating DT.

From the looks of things they want smaller, gap penetrating type DTs. Not the way I'd necessarily do it, but looks like that's their philosophy and we'll see next year if they get it to work finally.
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Smallish, quick DTs work for Peyton and the Colts, but they are usually playing with a lead and don't have to worry as much about getting the rushing game shoved down their throats as we do.
 
IDEXAN said:
Smallish, quick DTs work for Peyton and the Colts, but they are usually playing with a lead and don't have to worry as much about getting the rushing game shoved down their throats as we do.
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But we were considerably better against the run last year than the pass barring the first miserable three games. Actually considerably better is an understatement - they were darn good on run D. They gave up 715 rushing yards the first 3 weeks and 1711 on the season.
 
The Texans stacked the box to stop the run. But that basically only helped usually to contain the run to around the LOS. Virtually no forward push. Even stacking the box did not help improve sack numbers..........bottom line, because the DL was not STRONG enough............not even strong enough to consistently make holes for the LB or safeties to get through on blitz. This is independent of double teams. It should be no surprise that rushing attempts against the Texans dropped from year 2008 to 2009, when teams realized that sacks were not a threat and the secondary was an open book.
 
Texans_Chick said:
Actually, Carr had a pretty good 2004 until they played Denver and teams realized that he was worthless against Cover-2. Look back at the numbers. Then for a lot of reasons, the team fell apart because the defense got old and gone and couldn't keep it together for the conservative brand of ball they played, and the offense was a mish-mash of philosophies that didn't work.
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Stephanie, I was there. Believe me, I saw what transpired! How about the GB game. Great first half and then the disaster of the second half. UGGH!

I was just giving an example of Joyner's fallibility that I thought this board would appreciate. Just because he was wrong about 2 players doesn't make his system unreliable. I might try and find that book so we can all have a good laugh. To be fair, though, he is at an unfair disadvantage because he attempts to complete all that research without game tape. He's basically 76Texan who has marketed himself well. Actually, maybe I'm on to something. Can you ask him next time if he thinks Chris Myers is an all-pro center and if Kareem Jackson is the next Champ Bailey?
 
IDEXAN said:
Smallish, quick DTs work for Peyton and the Colts, but they are usually playing with a lead and don't have to worry as much about getting the rushing game shoved down their throats as we do.
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Bolded sentence is one of the big keys with them.

Smaller DTs work for them because they get such a great pass rush from their DEs and it helps funnel things back into the interior.

My guess is Bush and Kubiak are looking to try and make something like the Giants DL when they made their Superbowl run.
 
IDEXAN said:
Smallish, quick DTs work for Peyton and the Colts, but they are usually playing with a lead and don't have to worry as much about getting the rushing game shoved down their throats as we do.
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Our passing offense generated more yards than Indy last year, so I don't know why we couldn't apply the same idea of playing with a lead to us as well.
 
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