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CB vs. RB in the 1st real discussion!

wagonhed

wagonhed

Team Gruden
Hey dudes.

I know this has been gone over a bajillion times already and everyone has stated their opinion a dozen times. I just want to see if we can get past simple "I want an RB in the 1st" and "No CB is better in the 1st!".

RB is the obvious glamour position, and fans always tend to be more excited about getting a RB. I'm not saying that is why all the RB people want one, but I think you have to say that it's at least part of it. How does RB help us more than CB?

Does anyone have some well thought out reasons for why either CB or RB in the 1st would help our team more than the other and/or be a better value? I'm asking because I can't really decide for myself and would like to hear a convincing argument for either side.
 
I dont think it is quite that simple. You have to look at who is available and what the depth at that position is. And how they fit your system.
 
If Kyle Wilson is on the board at 20, I take him over Mathews. If Wilson is gone at 20 and we can trade down AND get Devin McCourty - I'd rather have him than Mathews.

I do like Mathews - but I don't think Ben Tate or Montario Hardesty are that much of a downgrade (if at all) in the 2nd.

In short - if we go CB in the first, I like some of the RBs in the 2nd-3rd. If we go RB in the first, I'm not so hot on the CBs in the 2nd-3rd.
 
I'm not very high on Kyle Wilson, So if it came down to him and Matthews I'd take the RB...
 
wagonhed said:
Hey dudes.

I know this has been gone over a bajillion times already and everyone has stated their opinion a dozen times. I just want to see if we can get past simple "I want an RB in the 1st" and "No CB is better in the 1st!".

RB is the obvious glamour position, and fans always tend to be more excited about getting a RB. I'm not saying that is why all the RB people want one, but I think you have to say that it's at least part of it. How does RB help us more than CB?

Does anyone have some well thought out reasons for why either CB or RB in the 1st would help our team more than the other and/or be a better value? I'm asking because I can't really decide for myself and would like to hear a convincing argument for either side.
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If Thomas is available in the 1st Smithiak should take him. IMHO There's also a case for Wilson to be taken in the 1st rd.

But I can see Mathews being taken in the 1st rd. After all of the fumbles,dropped passes,failure to pick up short yardage and stupid HB passes, A great RB would have the most immediate impact on the team. IMHO

If Smithiak go RB in the 1st I hope they draft a CB/OG or vise versa in the 2/3 rd. This would make the offense complete and fill/possibly upgrade Dunta's leaving.
 
Here is one way to look at it.

The goal of the 1st round is to pick up a franchise player. Would you rather have a franchise running back or a franchise cornerback? Which of those is more important to a team?

Which RBs do we think are likely to become franchise RBs? What about CBs?
 
IMO its more about the quality of players likely to be available in the 2nd round. I think there are great RBs available such as Gerhart, Tate and Dwyer who can be major impact players for our team available in the 2nd. For that reason (plus I am a defense first guy), I would take Thomas or Wilson in the first over Mathews.
 
How do you prove a RB or CB would help our team out when they are unproven players?

Both would help our team. There is no doubt in that. There are too many variables to have a clear cut winner. We lost Robinson. Does he need to be replaced or can Quin, Reeves, and the others step up in his place?

Slaton was injured. Will he be back strong? Will he get injured again?

Basically we need help at both spots dearly. Who will be available at 20 is the biggest piece that is missing. But you will need to address CB and RB in the first 2-3 rounds of the draft, period.

How much do the Texans like the prospects? Do they know something we dont know that would impact their draft status? There is no answer here.

All I did was ask alot of questions. lol
 
I prefer Kyle Wilson over Ryan Matthews simply because I think the depth at CB and RB are different. I don't see much of a difference between Matthews and Tate, but I do believe there is a big difference between Wilson and the mid-second round CBs. But like DiehardChris said, if we can trade down with someone and pick up an extra 3rd, and get a good CB like McCourty or Kareem Jackson, then I think that would be the best option. That extra 3rd would really help this team no matter how they spend it.
 
Just go down the list.

Earl Thomas
Joe Haden
Taylor Mays
Kyle Wilson
Ryan Mathews
Dan Williams
CJ Spiller
Mike Iupati
 
For me it's pretty easy, you fill the teams greatest need in the 1st round, if not then you still have that big gaping hole but it's been filled with subpar talent in the 2nd or 3rd round. To me the biggest team need is at CB, currently there is no one on the team to be a #1 CB. Also the talent level of available RB's in the 2nd round is greater than the talent level of available CB's in the 2nd round. 1st round CB and 2nd round RB is greater value to the team than 1st round RB and 2nd round CB. IMO Ben Tate is just as good as Ryan Mathews maybe better, but the 2nd round CB's aren't as good as Kyle Wilson.
 
wagonhed said:
Hey dudes.

I know this has been gone over a bajillion times already and everyone has stated their opinion a dozen times. I just want to see if we can get past simple "I want an RB in the 1st" and "No CB is better in the 1st!".

RB is the obvious glamour position, and fans always tend to be more excited about getting a RB. I'm not saying that is why all the RB people want one, but I think you have to say that it's at least part of it. How does RB help us more than CB?

Does anyone have some well thought out reasons for why either CB or RB in the 1st would help our team more than the other and/or be a better value? I'm asking because I can't really decide for myself and would like to hear a convincing argument for either side.
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I'm going to throw something in that RMARTIN65 & Beerlover & I discussed for our mocks. You have to look at your roster and determine what you already have as well as what you can draft. I evaluate RB as greater need as we know more about what we have at CB. You can't worry about sophomore slumps but you can review injury history and likelihood of re-injury. We don't know what we have as of right now in Slaton. No guarantee he will ever play again or if he does at what level? Year one or year 2? Foster has little more than three games experience so he is on roster but is a question mark. Moats is a little for consistent but consistently average. Corner on the other hand, we know Reeves started two years & is healthy. Quin has looked very good and did start some games. Is he #1 CB? Not known but we know more about him than any college CB with no NFL plays. So RB it is. Now if you know you can get what you think is an answer for RB in 2nd round then CB moves to round one. Exception for me is if Earl Thomas which probably starts at FS & MAYBE is a corner, then he is a must over CB. Unless (I just love doing this), you get a trade offer that makes you start all over.
 
Like I said in another thread, as long as we get a RB and a CB in the first couple of rounds, I'm fine.

My preference is for Mathews at #20. To me, the most broken part of our team is the running game and more specifically, the running back position. Mathews fixes that.

And I'm not normally a RB drafting person. Normally, I'm a "fix the line" person, a "build from the inside out" person. I think this is the first time I've suggested that we draft a RB in the first since I've been on this board. And it's because I think he is ideally suited to our system and that he could be a cure-all to our team. I think he would make our offense AND defense better.

AND, the only RB I want to draft in the first is Mathews. AND, I don't think he's going to be there for us. I think the Chargers are going to jump ahead of us to get him unless we trade up.

The CB position, to me, isn't nearly as broken as the RB position. Quin, Reeves, and McCain aren't scaring anyone but I think they'd play as well as we got last year. And I think there are a ton of CBs in this draft that are going to end up being good. If Kyle Wilson is there at #20, I'm fine with that. I could get behind the Kyle Wilson pick. But then we've got to take Tate in the 2nd... and he might not be there.

With their rising draft stocks, there's also a very good possibility that both guys are gone by our pick. Then what do we do. I categorically do not want Iupati in the first. I think he's extremely over-rated.
 
Super Mario said:
Just go down the list.

Earl Thomas - He won't be there but he wouldn't make me mad
Joe Haden - He won't be there but he wouldn't make me mad
Taylor Mays - Don't want a SS in the first.
Kyle Wilson - I would be happy with him in the first.
Ryan Mathews - This is who I target.
Dan Williams- Only if worse comes to worst.
CJ Spiller- I'd prefer to trade back if this is our only option.
Mike Iupati- DO NOT WANT.
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:spin:
 
wagonhed said:
Hey dudes.

I know this has been gone over a bajillion times already and everyone has stated their opinion a dozen times. I just want to see if we can get past simple "I want an RB in the 1st" and "No CB is better in the 1st!".

RB is the obvious glamour position, and fans always tend to be more excited about getting a RB. I'm not saying that is why all the RB people want one, but I think you have to say that it's at least part of it. How does RB help us more than CB?

Does anyone have some well thought out reasons for why either CB or RB in the 1st would help our team more than the other and/or be a better value? I'm asking because I can't really decide for myself and would like to hear a convincing argument for either side.
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I think you have to first rank the players

Second rank your needs

Third figure out where the best value for filling those needs falls.

Here's an example which fits this years prospects ....

You have 5-6 RB's who are relatively close in talent and then a big drop.

1-2 CB's who are close in and then there is a substantial drop off.

If you can get one of those two top tier CB's you take him as there isnt value to be had later due to the drop in talent. You take the RB later because there are several who are closely grouped talent wise.

In this draft when I look at the RB's I think Matthews , Tate , Gerhart , Hardesty and Dwyer all pretty close. You can likely get one of them in Rd2 or quite possibly even Rd3.


When I look at the CB's I think that you have Wilson and Haden then everyone else. You wont find similar talent after they are gone.


Thats how I see things - you take the player who best fills a need from the smallest group of top tier talent. Unless of course a player falls who you feel is head and shoulders above the rest. To me the player who fits that description and could likely fall is Earl Thomas. If he's available you take him.


The thing is that fans dont know how the Texans rank the players nor their needs. Its a guessing game .....
 
Lets think about it this way:

Which unit is stronger?

Quin/Reeves/McCain/Bennett/Molden/Parson (yes hes under contract)

Slaton/Foster/Moats/J.Johnson/Henry

If I had a vote, I'd say the CBs. I think Quin will be at the very least be a solid starter this year, Reeves isn't horrible and other than a big play here and there he does his job, McCain only improved last year and can be a good nickel next year and could some day be a starter.

Slaton's health is completely unknown and since its the RB position I lean towards the pessimistic side and fear he'll always be a health question. Foster was good in spot time last year but lets see how he does when defenses have tape on him. His ability to catch out of the backfield is a nice asset though so I think he'll atleast be the 3rd back in a 3 back rotation for us. Moats has no upside. Jeremiah is unknown/unproven and Henry can't get off the practice squad.

Running back is a higher need is what I'm saying. I think the organization is committed to walking away from this draft with a ready to go top notch elite runningback, which the draft experts I listen to all say Matthews will be.

Another factor is the depth of CB in this draft. You can find day-1-of-training camp starters in the 3rd-4th round this year.
 
Dutchrudder said:
I prefer Kyle Wilson over Ryan Matthews simply because I think the depth at CB and RB are different. I don't see much of a difference between Matthews and Tate, but I do believe there is a big difference between Wilson and the mid-second round CBs.
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I would take the opposite view. I see Ryan Mathews as head and shoulders above the Tates, Gerharts, and Hardestys of the 2nd round. Mathews is explosive, and the other guys are not. Mathews is a lead back, while these so called 2nd round choices are complimentary RBs.

Conversely, I don't see the separation between Kyle Wilson and the CBs available in the 2nd (or 3rd) round. Franks, Jackson, Cox, and Lewis are Wilson's equal athletically, and played against superior competition.

I think the CB vs. RB argument misses the point. The Texans need help at both spots. So, who is the better player, Ryan Mathews or Kyle Wilson? To me, it's Ryan Mathews in a runaway.
 
Lucky said:
I would take the opposite view. I see Ryan Mathews as head and shoulders above the Tates, Gerharts, and Hardestys of the 2nd round. Mathews is explosive, and the other guys are not. Mathews is a lead back, while these so called 2nd round choices are complimentary RBs.

Conversely, I don't see the separation between Kyle Wilson and the CBs available in the 2nd (or 3rd) round. Franks, Jackson, Cox, and Lewis are Wilson's equal athletically, and played against superior competition.

I think the CB vs. RB argument misses the point. The Texans need help at both spots. So, who is the better player, Ryan Mathews or Kyle Wilson? To me, it's Ryan Mathews in a runaway.
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Thanks for doing the typing for my opinion as well.
 
Lucky said:
I would take the opposite view. I see Ryan Mathews as head and shoulders above the Tates, Gerharts, and Hardestys of the 2nd round. Mathews is explosive, and the other guys are not. Mathews is a lead back, while these so called 2nd round choices are complimentary RBs.

Conversely, I don't see the separation between Kyle Wilson and the CBs available in the 2nd (or 3rd) round. Franks, Jackson, Cox, and Lewis are Wilson's equal athletically, and played against superior competition.

I think the CB vs. RB argument misses the point. The Texans need help at both spots. So, who is the better player, Ryan Mathews or Kyle Wilson? To me, it's Ryan Mathews in a runaway.
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infantrycak said:
Thanks for doing the typing for my opinion as well.
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So yall would rather have Mathews/Cox over Wilson/Dwyer?

Not much of a difference IMO. Both get a nice boost in ability.
 
Super Mario said:
So yall would rather have Mathews/Cox over Wilson/Dwyer?

Not much of a difference IMO. Both get a nice boost in ability.
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I won't speak for Lucky but IMO the drop off from Mathews to Dwyer is huge and the drop off from Wilson to Cox is not - so absolutely yes better to take Mathews/Cox. I wouldn't even think about considering Dwyer in the 2nd round and I will be here bitching (ready to be proven wrong and hoping it happens) if he is taken in the 2nd round. I think he is a classic example of a player not suited to a team that fans will pump up anyway looking at college rather than their team.
 
infantrycak said:
I won't speak for Lucky but IMO the drop off from Mathews to Dwyer is huge and the drop off from Wilson to Cox is not - so absolutely yes better to take Mathews/Cox. I wouldn't even think about considering Dwyer in the 2nd round and I will be here bitching (ready to be proven wrong and hoping it happens) if he is taken in the 2nd round. I think he is a classic example of a player not suited to a team that fans will pump up anyway looking at college rather than their team.
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For the record I dont like Dwyer either - But I do like Tate and to some extent Gerhart (tho maybe not in round 2).
 
I'm off of Dwyer in rds 1-2 but he would be a good value in rd.3

I know he's a great short yardage RB that was very productive as a freshman in Gailey's pro scheme. While he was backing up Choice. In workouts he appears to have good hands.

What bothers me is he showed up out of shape at the Combine. With millions of $ on the line he shows up out of shape. This makes me question his dedication and drive to be the best he can be at his job.

This is why I've dropped Dwyer to the 3rd rd.
 
apples & oranges both groups have good depth this year. the Texans either hit on one or the other with a top graded prospect in first then next best prospect in 2nd/3rd with other.
 
Lucky said:
I would take the opposite view. I see Ryan Mathews as head and shoulders above the Tates, Gerharts, and Hardestys of the 2nd round. Mathews is explosive, and the other guys are not. Mathews is a lead back, while these so called 2nd round choices are complimentary RBs.

Conversely, I don't see the separation between Kyle Wilson and the CBs available in the 2nd (or 3rd) round. Franks, Jackson, Cox, and Lewis are Wilson's equal athletically, and played against superior competition.

I think the CB vs. RB argument misses the point. The Texans need help at both spots. So, who is the better player, Ryan Mathews or Kyle Wilson? To me, it's Ryan Mathews in a runaway.
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I agree with you on cbs but I believe the same argument can be made for the rbs in this draft class but with less to choose from. That would be the only reason I would value rb over cb in the first round. Ultimately though I believe Earl Thomas or Dan Williams would be much better picks than either rb or cb. FS and DT has a big drop off in talent after these 2 are gone and both are positions of need. I doubt either will be there though so it is probably a moot point.

If the Texans stay at #20 and these guys are gone then I would chose Mathews over any cb in this draft besides Haden. Moving back seems to be the best thing the Texans could do in this situation but that is not always easy to do. It will definately be an interesting 1st round. The 1st pick of the 2nd round now becomes a much coveted pick with a night to rework your board and listen to trade offers.
 
bckey said:
If the Texans stay at #20 and these guys are gone then I would chose Mathews over any cb in this draft besides Haden.
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I honestly think Wilson is the better player over Haden.




Spled said:
I wonder if Mays is a possibility, but The Texans just aren't showing their hand.
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Im begining to wonder if the interest they have shown in Matthews is a smoke screen .... I just cant see the Texans taking a RB that high.
 
Corrosion said:
I honestly think Wilson is the better player over Haden.
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You may be right. I just don't see a big enough difference in this years crop of cb's to justify taking one in the first round.






Corrosion said:
Im begining to wonder if the interest they have shown in Matthews is a smoke screen .... I just cant see the Texans taking a RB that high.
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I think it is a smoke screen to try and get San Diego to either jump ahead of them and help a player they want to fall to them or to get them to trade with them and pick up an extra pick.
 
Spled said:
I wonder if Mays is a possibility, but The Texans just aren't showing their hand.
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Why prey tell would you over pay for Pollard when you have Pollard under a 2. whatever million tender already ? How many times do you have to read he has stiff hips and poor feet in terms of changing directions to understand, with all his straight line speed his hips and slow feet make him a strong safety candidate only. We already got that in Pollard. I've seen people slotting him to the cow pokes which would pretty much would confirm that even after the Roy Williams experiment blew up in his face Jerry Jones couldn't find his butt in the dark with both hands in terms of evaluating NFL talent. The great anchor in the water up north isn't the Quarterback, it's the meddling owner. Never say never of course but I doubt they have Mays on their board. If they brought him in it would be only as a smoke screen to force a trade negotiations. Someone may fall in love with Mays but the work outs and college production, leads me to believe most NFL savvy folks will wait until the price is right somewhere in the middle of the second or latter. He and is feet and hips will drop like a rock. Above all else, the feet and hips trump all.
 
Mays would have been top 15 last year. He is still graded out as going in the 1st round. You make it sound like this guy is a complete bum and a waste of a draft pick. I just don't see it. Mays has sub 4.4 speed and Roy Williams didn't. Mays in my opinion should be a free safety with his speed and if it turns out he can't be coached up then move him to olb. He already has the size. The guy is an athletic freak that is being ripped apart predraft. We will see if his hips and slow feet are as bad as you say.
 
bckey said:
You may be right. I just don't see a big enough difference in this years crop of cb's to justify taking one in the first round.

I think it is a smoke screen to try and get San Diego to either jump ahead of them and help a player they want to fall to them or to get them to trade with them and pick up an extra pick.
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I've been scolded by beerlover, but that is my take as well. There is only a marginal difference in this class between the first and third round prospects. And I highly doubt, if we take one of the studs from this years class with the twenty, we'll see the guy until October or so. By that time Mathews would be working on his second four hundred yard month. Or Earl Thomas would be playing so well he would make Cushing a super star by forcing so much action underneath into the belly of the zone. I'm on board with what ever they do but I would read a corner in the first as shear panic. Why hit one hole when you can plug two ? Still say Iupati is an option.
 
bckey said:
Mays would have been top 15 last year. He is still graded out as going in the 1st round. You make it sound like this guy is a complete bum and a waste of a draft pick. I just don't see it. Mays has sub 4.4 speed and Roy Williams didn't. Mays in my opinion should be a free safety with his speed and if it turns out he can't be coached up then move him to olb. He already has the size. The guy is an athletic freak that is being ripped apart predraft. We will see if his hips and slow feet are as bad as you say.
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I'm just going by what the guy has produced over the course of his college career. And after what we've seen at the combine. We now have a reason why. Speed kills and all, but with out the feet and hips, it's like having a Howitzer without fire controll. It shoots way out there all righty. But it hits nothing. He doesn't have the feet, nor hips to end up being Ed Reed.His lack of change of direction will force hm to be a in the box saftey. And you better be a lights out in the box saftey if you've going in the first round. And his production suggests he is not. Plain enough ? And if I seeing it, I'm guessing the pro scouts see it as well. The herd is still forcing him up the board....I'm just saying they will come to their scenes once they get into the final week. On the other hand, I believe Earl Thomas would add such a dynamic to our defense, even tough he's a bit light for Kubaik's tastes, they should really consider spending some draft capitol and move up for the guy.

Bum, no. Taylor Mays feet and hips just suck. And BTW i guessed the same thing last year.
 
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