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For my Carr Haters....

P

pittbull

Rookie
Name this QB in the comparison to Carr, as far as stats go!!!

Player "X" David Carr
ATT (474) (466)
Comp (288) (285)
PCT. (60.8) (61.2)
Yards (3,692) (3,531)
AVG. (7.79) (7.58)
TD "28" (16)
INT (14) (14)
Long (50yrd) (69yrd)
Rating (92.6) (83.5)
Sacks (26) (49)


Player "X" happens to be two-time Super Bowl QB Tom Brady. The gist of this email is to remind those haters out there, this is still a young franchise, with a more than capable QB, if given the right tools around him. Not many are going to be Dan Marino or Peyton Manning and put up HUGE numbers every year, but given the right talent around them, and an offensive line that protects, there are some that could be Joe Montana or Troy Aikman-like!(Look at Big-Ben!!!) Carr is well on his way, as long as the protection is there, our receiving corp develops, and a healthy backfield takes pressure off of long 3rd down attempts. He has shown the strong arm, guts, and has the intelligence to know what to do when given time. With all that said, look for Davie Franchise to have a breakout year, and get mentioned for Pro Bowl honors. Possibly attending with Johnson, Robinson, and Peek!
 
Those are some nice stats. Kinda hard to argue with that. Now imagine what Carr could do if his sack number was closer to Brady.
 
I've always backed David Carr. I never thought he was the main reason for our problems on offense. I think if he can get decent protection and find a dependable no.2 threat this season, his numbers and the team will be great.
 
Pitt,

Nice post,

Hey, unless I am reading your stats wrong, you have David's TD/INT ratio incorrect. Carr had 16 TD's with 14 INT's. The way I am reading it, you have both at 16.
 
Thanks TP, your right! Carr acutally had 14 INT's, so I might have hurt the thread a bit....lol But when you think of Carr being sacked so often and throwing under so much pressure, it's a wonder the TD-INT stat wasn't the other way around or worse!!! :crying:
 
pittbull said:
But when you think of Carr being sacked so often and throwing under so much pressure, it's a wonder the TD-INT stat wasn't the other way around or worse!!! :crying:
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You got that right brother. . . you got that right!
 
Excellent post, pittbull. :thumbup

I shall use these numbers in my continuing effort to education those haters out there.

I've never understood the point of slamming DC, considering the extremely tough position he was put in from the beginning. I feel certain that whatever veteran QB we could have picked up in the first year would have suffered the same fate of 76 sacks.
 
Panther5407 said:
Those are some nice stats. Kinda hard to argue with that. Now imagine what Carr could do if his sack number was closer to Brady.
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Imagine what our win total would be like if his TD total was closer as well! ..maybe we can kidnap an O-Line somewhere..
 
Those numbers don't mean much of anything. If you put Aaron brooks, Matt Hasslebeck's, and Jake Plummer's raw numbers up they will probably look better than Tom Brady's over the last three or four years.

I am one of those who is called a Carr hater, because I think carr is a starting NFL quality QB in the range of Brooks or Plummer. Carr still does not make consistent enough good decisions and is below average in pocket awareness, but is able to off set that with an above average arm, tough and better than expected running ability, and good leadreship skills. I just don't think he is elite and consistent. Like the guys mention above Carr can put up probowl type seasons, but will not do it year in, year out.

I taking the bait for this :fishing: trip, and already know that Carr needs a better OL, a real 2nd Wr and more experience according to the normal rebuttals when these discussion goes on.
 
He has the tools to do the job, He needs protection to give them time to get open, We were better at the run last year and I believe that was because you have to start something before you can learn it. We went into a completely new line scheme with the zone blocking. I believe we will do alot better this year and David should have some time to see his recievers.
I see a break out year coming and I will be there front and center.
 
When Carr has time he can be amazing. Look back that the Minnesota game last year. Late in the game when Carr actually had time to go through his progressions, he picked the def apart. Im not saying that Carr is the next Montana, but I think if we ever fix the OL and get him a good #2 WR he could become the probowl QB everybody wants.
 
If the running game is as good as it was at the end of the year last year, then he should have a much better year. If the def has to key in on the running game, then it will open up alot of things for Carr and the WR's. Play action should buy Carr alot of time also.
 
I like Carr. I find myself defending him alot these days though. And I'm having to with people who know their football. He does lack some tools like pocket presence but Marino lacked escapability. I had an argument with a guy for at least a half hour cuz he thought he was a sissy cuz he wore his wedding ring on the field and because he does'nt cuss. I thought my ears were gonna start bleeding. I'd would like to see the Texans get a back-up next year that will get his butt scared though. That is unless he goes for 4000+ with 24+ TD's >10 Int's and 20-24 sax with 'bout 200-250 yrd rushing (scrambling). Alot of you guys might be thinking...whoa, that's TOO many yards rushing but with our O-Line....C'mon. Besides, he's got the ability. He might as well use it. As long as he can remember to slide.
 
Davis37 said:
Its hard to have pocket presence when there isnt a pocket...
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Very true, but there are times when he could learn to slide one or two steps to assist the OL instead of going into full flight mode. Lord knows he has reason to run screaming much of the time but he could improve in this area.
 
Davis37 said:
Its hard to have pocket presence when there isnt a pocket...
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No really..the two are more integrated than that. If a Qb drops to far, does not drop far enough, runs to the side, runs too quickly, or does not release the ball when he is supposed then it looks like the OL is not givng him time when the QB is making the mistake.

IM0, the combination of OL's below average pass protection and Carr's average at best pocket presence is the combination that makes the sack total so poor. QBs such Manning and Brady who are above average in thier pocket awareness make their average to slightly above average OLs look a heck of a lot better than they really are.
 
As far as lack of pocket, it's not all on the o-line. Some QBs, Brady in particular, are very adept at creating space for themselves on mid to deep drops by taking short, quick, jab and shuffle steps to avoid the rush. Carr's first escape/avoidance step is almost always a long stride which severely limits his ability to maneuver through smaller gaps in the rush.

edit: ok, sorry for the redundant post. I stepped away while in the middle of composing this response and in the meantime a couple of others said what needed to be said.
 
Not only is Carr an improving young quarterback, he has wit. On this Web site, Carr said of his plans for the time off before training camp: “I have to go base jumping and sky diving, surfing and riding some motorcycles and then I’ll be ready for training camp,” Carr said, barely cracking a smile.
Trust me, Browns fans appreciated the jab more than Kellen Wnslow I & II.
 
The difference between Carr and the players that you named Arlington, none of them have ever shown the heart Carr does. All that you mention have been content to pick up a pay check and play for teams and cities that do the same. You can best believe here in H-Town, that will not happen. We Want A CHAMPIONSHIP, A CHAMPIONSHIP QB, AN OWNER THAT WANTS ONE, AND FANS THAT SUPPORT! Carr has the fire and it shows on Sunday's, problem is, we're still trying to retool an expansion franchise into players that all share the same thoughts of winning. The O-line is slowly getting there, but needs another "nasty" fire guy, and once that happens.......lookout! Don't look at guys that were nothing in college and just so happened to make it to the leauge like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr has been a leader and winner no matter where he went. As for Plummer, bad timing. If he played on a better Bronco team, he wins. He's got guts, but isn't always the smartest player either!
 
As for pocket presence, does anyone know what it is like facing a front 7, averaging 275lbs, running a sub 4.8, and breathinng down your neck. NO! If you did, you would be palying or coaching in the NFL. What you see, is not always what you get. Many aspects of the game, affect how a QB or any player for that matter continue play! I have close friends that have played at the highest level, along with three family members, and they will all tell you the same about fans on sites! "Those who complain about players and their production the most, usually know the least about the game" Study what the entire offense is doing, not just one player. Did we have a "true" #2 receiver that was capable of being another outlet for Carr.......NO! Was Dominic helathy all year for the team to gel...........No! Did we have a defense that placed us in bad field position often.......yes! Many aspects affect how plays are called, schemes, and how each player is then affected. Take Brady, Manning, Big-Ben, whatever QB that had a good year, and he would not do much better. All the sliding in the pocket in the world was not going to help Carr escape the rush that was coming at him last year. Remember, the more he slides in the pocket, the throwing lanes are decreased in number, and then limits him to one side of the field, rather than staying in the pocket and viewing the entire field. Problem........No lanes to see in when they are being colapsed! Also, the less chance of him being accurate when throwing against his body. Look at howlong Brady and Manning stay in the pocket.....it can seems like decades. Carr's not Vick. Even Farve has a worst percentage outside the pocket, than in! :goodnight
 
pittbull said:
As for pocket presence, does anyone know what it is like facing a front 7, averaging 275lbs, running a sub 4.8, and breathinng down your neck. NO! If you did, you would be palying or coaching in the NFL. ...

... I have close friends that have played at the highest level, along with three family members, and they will all tell you the same about fans on sites! "Those who complain about players and their production the most, usually know the least about the game"
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Ok, we're all stupid.

Yay Texans! You're the best! Carr is a Hall of Famer. 16-0 baby!

Is that better?

Why reject legitmate and constructive criticism from people who have watched football closely for dozens of years? Granted most of us have only played through high school or a few years of college ball, but to say that fans can't have an educated opinion about the game just because they haven't played at the highest level is ridiculous. Some of us have been watching football closely since the 60's and I think it's a bit presumptuous to basically tell fans they don't know what they are talking about unless they have played or coached.
 
pittbull said:
The difference between Carr and the players that you named Arlington, none of them have ever shown the heart Carr does. All that you mention have been content to pick up a pay check and play for teams and cities that do the same. You can best believe here in H-Town, that will not happen. We Want A CHAMPIONSHIP, A CHAMPIONSHIP QB, AN OWNER THAT WANTS ONE, AND FANS THAT SUPPORT! Carr has the fire and it shows on Sunday's, problem is, we're still trying to retool an expansion franchise into players that all share the same thoughts of winning. The O-line is slowly getting there, but needs another "nasty" fire guy, and once that happens.......lookout! Don't look at guys that were nothing in college and just so happened to make it to the leauge like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr has been a leader and winner no matter where he went. As for Plummer, bad timing. If he played on a better Bronco team, he wins. He's got guts, but isn't always the smartest player either!
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Honestly, I have real no response to this because it is emotional homerism, but I as I am want to do, I will try anyway.

I don't know, but overcoming an average college career to become an above average pro-starter shows a lot of moxie to me. Seriously, there are a ton of players who player there tails off in the NFL whose primary motivation is money. I never have a good handle on who has "heart of a champion" or plays hard because of "money and fame" (see T. Owens, which one for him? looks the same to me)

FWIW, Carr reminds most of Plummer than anyone else in the league. I have stated this repeatedly for about a year now on various boards.

Actually, much of the objective opinion, that I present on this board and other has been forged by my brother-in-law who played in the NFL for 13 years. Especially, the stuff about who is motivated what and who is playing hard. Basically, a ton of the "heart and guts" are frauds and show boats like Sanders and Irwin are often the hardest working people on the field.
 
... I have close friends that have played at the highest level, along with three family members, and they will all tell you the same about fans on sites! "Those who complain about players and their production the most, usually know the least about the game"
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of course thats what they will say. Thats what I would say too if I was a player getting shredded on a message board.

How many of those players actually spend enough time on a message board to get to know the posters and actually see how much knowledge they have?

100 bucks says that 99.9999999999% of them.. if they even looked at a message board before.. only looked at it long enough to read the negative posts by the 15 year old *****s.. and based their entire opinion on that.

I agree with aj. Some people have been following the game for years.. they may not understand every single nuance of the game from the inside out.. but they understand enough to be able to give an educated opinion on a players production, and what issues they are having.
 
Grid said:
of course thats what they will say. Thats what I would say too if I was a player getting shredded on a message board.

How many of those players actually spend enough time on a message board to get to know the posters and actually see how much knowledge they have?

100 bucks says that 99.9999999999% of them.. if they even looked at a message board before.. only looked at it long enough to read the negative posts by the 15 year old *****s.. and based their entire opinion on that.

I agree with aj. Some people have been following the game for years.. they may not understand every single nuance of the game from the inside out.. but they understand enough to be able to give an educated opinion on a players production, and what issues they are having.
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I'm with you guys, fans (who care) nowadays' have a zillion more resources about the game and all of it's nuances from the field to the front office than let's say 15 years ago. With the sport growing, the internet, all the sports channels, Fantasy Football, Video games, etc..... we all know more about the sport now more than ever. And I'm sure most of played @ least in high school so we have some idea what they go through.
Plz don't go saying that I said WE KNOW what they go through, just that some of us have some idea (if not more) of what they go through.
 
I'll try to stay out of this one but I think we have a few really, really astute minds around here when it comes to breaking down NFL stuff objectively. Over the years (since the franchise birth), aj and Arlington Texan are consistently the most spot-on and insightful eyes that choose to participate around here. Being rah-rah about Carr is great and all, but he has flaws in his game. I think it is a good thing that we can talk about his game at least semi-objectively. Saying that we don't grasp the game because we were never players is kinda goofy.
 
Vinny said:
Saying that we don't grasp the game because we were never players is kinda goofy.
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This idea can be taken to a logic extreme such as, "You can't say anything bad a about that fast food manager who just screwed up that order. You only worked at Wendy's a couple of summers when you were in high school and college, and have no understanding of what it is like to have 3 sixteen year olds call out, a supply truck sitting at the back door and bus full of screaming eight year olds tearing up the dining room."
 
My reply was not to tear down anyone who really watches the game, have played the game, and understands the breakdown of the game. It was merely a point, where those who watch games through their favorite teams colored blinders, don't look past wins and losses. Believe me, I know there are many "knowledable fans on sites", especially in the heart of Texas where football is king, but there are also those who study the media's perspective, an individual player, or playstation 200?, to gain their perspective on the game, whether it be football, basketball, baseball, or checkers. The point I was making is, it's tougher than what we think and much easier to see a rush, a broken play, blown coverage, or whatever from the stands and a day later, than within seconds when our favorite individual players life is on the line! A.J. has shown to be extremely knowledable, as those who I have had in depth football convo's and everyone's opinion is theirs, and I respect that. My post is really for those who think no matter what the Texans should be in the Super Bowl every year. I for one, am realist. If we stink.....we stink! If a player stinks......he stinks. At the same time, I do realize his job is ,much harder than mine, being that he's most likely working out right now to save his life, and I'm typing to save mine.......lol :highfive:
 
A.J., Grid, and Arlington. I for one know you to be knowledgable about the game, and my rant was not to attack you guys. It was merely for those who may be looking at our threads who think the game is "easy"! :ouch:
 
its not Carr's fault that Mckinney is washed up already. And "project" Wand was starting before he had developed into starting caliber. Infantrycak, we should put you at QB and see how fast you PEE your pants from all the angry 300+pounders trying to knock you out.


Quote from Infantrycak
"Very true, but there are times when he could learn to slide one or two steps to assist the OL instead of going into full flight mode."


Yeah, that's it eh, buddy.............just needs to learn to slide ?

hahahhahaha..............good one buddy........... :highfive:
 
Carr will alot better this year, I heard you guys are instaling more quick 3-5 step drop designed to get the ball out of Carr's hand faster. I know your solid #1 reciever is Andre Johnson, and you have talent in Gaffney, and Bradford, but they aren't solid #2's but what about this I think his name is Jerome Mathis? What about him? I heard he was fast and impressed alot of people in practice sounds like he could be your #2. How good is this guy? If so, these quick 3-5 step drops, with solid help from Johnson, Mathis, Bradford, Gaffney lets not exclude the HB's and FB's and TE's could contribute along with the recieveing corps, could set up Carr to have that 24 TD 10 INT 3,600+ yard season many of you guys are talking about. :highfive:
 
Mathis.. most likely.. will be our #4 or #5 receiver. I think we will find a way to fit him into our roster so that we can put him out there on 3rd and longs and such.. but chances are he will not be our #2 or #3 for another season or so. He needs time to develope.

Armstrong is another good WR we have who will most likely play a bigger role in our offense this next season... all in all I think with Gaffney, Bradford, Armstrong, and Johnson.. we will be in good shape. And with our returning Oline and their experience in the zone blocking scheme.. we will have better protection for carr.. and bigger holes for Davis.

I think we will be a borderline top ten Offense.. somewhere in the 8-12 range.
 
I have to agree with Arlington here. Figures lie, and liars figure. I would say Brady is about 3 times better than Carr, at least according to his mantle. Carr has plusses in his game, and I am a big fan, but I try to look at things objectively. And, looking at it objectively, considering he was the #1 pick in the draft, I have to say he has been a mild disapointment. I think Arlington was pretty much spot on in his criticisms. That's not to say Carr couldn't make a giant leap this year, but imo, his hype hasn't come close to matching his productivty thus far.
 
Hulk75 said:
Explian what games and what were the bad ones? Pockett awareness? he rushed 73 times for 300 yds 4.6 yd avg. and when blitzed makes good decisions (Kansas City game if you want to go watch it) and NObody can say anything about his arm strength it is up there with Bretts
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I complimented his arm strength. If you want an explanation of pocket awareness read the entire thread. There are several options offered by myself and others throughout the thread.

By your previous post, I am probably not going to be able sway you with a logical arguemnt because you think Carr is already great and not young QB learning how to play the position. I am open to the fact that he could improve greatly and prove me wrong. Are you open to the fact that last year for every good game you could pull out, I could pull out another where he stepped into pressure repeatedly , or checked down too often and quickly to DomDavis?

BTW, scrambling stats if anything prove my point. QBs like Steve Young, McNabb, Culpepper became better QBs after they learned when to run versus taking off as soon as the DLman had more than an inch of space from the OLman. The best running QB in the league Michael Vick has the worse pocket awareness in the league. He was sacked 46 times with superior running skills to over half the RBs in the league.

Because I think Carr a starting calibur but, not great QB back does not mean I hate him. It is not an either/or game. Like most things the truth is somewhere in the middle. If you stop to comprehend what is written you would see that I am saying Carr is the middle of the pack of NFL QBs.
 
Something else to ponder too is that the team did not open up the play book because they knew they were not gonna win too many games and did not want to overwhelm young players. Plus other teams can game plan you better with more on film. We have not given anyone too much to study.
Starting this season we're gonna see Mucho Mas plays with multiple formations that it's gonna keep the die-hard Texan fans on they're toes. And as far as the play book is concerned, I'm sure we waited to see what kind of talent we were gonna have before we carved too much in stone. This alone will help he Kid bloosom into a better QB.
I'm looking for about 3800+ yards passing with 30-32 TD's & 10-12 INT's. This prediction could be a year pre-mature but let's hope not.
 
Big B Texan Fan said:
I'm looking for about 3800+ yards passing with 30-32 TD's & 10-12 INT's. This prediction could be a year pre-mature but let's hope not.
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I think Carr is going to improve this season, but not that much. Your saying that hes gonna double the amount of tds from last season (16). I think he will throw between 20-25 this season and im hoping he can cut his interceptions down to around 10 or so. If Carr can throw more than 25 tds next season, I will be very impressed.
 
when the Texans quit getting themselves in third and long is when you will see Davids numbers start to increase and the sacks, int decrease and TD, and yardage increase. third and eight your not (i know its hard to believe for all you palmer haters and i am on of them) going to run the ball. so you get blitzed, sacked then punt.

For all you carr lovers out there dont stress out to much. this city has never liked any of its QB's. Hated pasterinie(i dont know how to spell his name) hated moon, hated billy joe tolliver but for abvious reasons-cause he sucked. I pesonaly couldnt stand cody carlson, in fact the only QB this city has ever liked is Bucky Richardson. I dont think he ever started a game.
 
Hulk75 said:
Well if he is a middle of the pack qb and we are a middle of the pack franchise right now and we have seen all carr is going to do, wouldnt we be trying to get some qbs in here through FA or the draft to take his spot?
You want pockett presents then have carr dodge 1 guy then 3!
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While you are being cute, there are some blitz pick-up where the job of the QB is to have released the ball or to avoid a certain blitzer and then throw the ball. (corner blitzes often fall into this category)

As for the Texans being a middle of the pack franchise, the hardest step for Carr as a QB and the Texans a franchise will be going from the big pile in the middle of the league to becoming consistent playoff and Superbowl contenders. A middle of the pack QB can have top 5 year and middle of the pack team can make a run at the Superbowl. Being a top 5-10 QB year in year out and serious playoff team for several years in a row in more challenging.

As for Carr this is a key year, as the number 1 pick and being allotted time to grow with a young franchise, he will be given four full years to develop. That's a ton of time in the NFL, but it is the proper thing to do in the texans situation. Over a career Carr and Harrington are pretty close in terms of career wins, pass rating, etc, but notice the Lions have brought in Garcia as at least a token challenge.
 
Hulk75 said:
WHY?Put Tom Brady on our Texans and put Carr on the Patriots. You think the Texans would have 3 Superbowl rings by now. I believe that Carr would have a couple Superbowl rings playing for the Patriots right now, he is that good.
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Once again, Arlington has hit the nail on the head. As to your question, I will disagree. I don't think Carr, at this stage of his career, would have led the Pats to a SB, nor would Brady have won one here, but that's an open question, and can be debated. What I don't think is an open question is comparing Carr's and Brady's careers. Brady has much, much better pocket awareness, desicion making, and comes up biggest in the biggest games. Right now, he is the best QB in the game, and that includes Manning. When Manning, or Carr put three SB trophies on thier mantle in 4 years, then we can talk. But, right now, this contest is a total rout, and Brady is far superior. And, to add insult to injury Carr was a #1 overall pick, and Brady a 6th rounder. Ouch! :goodnight
 
infantrycak said:
Very true, but there are times when he could learn to slide one or two steps to assist the OL instead of going into full flight mode. Lord knows he has reason to run screaming much of the time but he could improve in this area.
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Speaking of that, if you go to the bottom of this page and click our home page you will see a new video that shows them working on sliding in the pocket. It's called Drill Instruction: Quarterbacks.
 
Porky said:
...And, to add insult to injury Carr was a #1 overall pick, and Brady a 6th rounder. Ouch! :goodnight
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Not in the same draft. Brady was taken in the 2000 draft, 2 years prior to the Texans stepping on the field. There's no "Ouch", the Texans never had a shot at Brady. Or Manning for that matter.

And of course Brady & Manning are better QBs right now than Carr. But I will say that David has seen things in the NFL that Tom & Peyton never have. Did you know that despite playing 20 fewer games than Brady, Carr has been sacked 140 times compared to Brady's 130? Or that Carr has been sacked once more than Manning and has played in 72 fewer games. Sure pocket awareness can count for some of that. But a nearly 300% difference? Please!

Has Tom or Payton ever felt a rush the likes that David did against the Chargers in '02? The Saints in '03? Any Colt game or even the Browns last season? Yeah, they play in the same league. But Carr's experiences in the NFL backfield belong on a different planet, if not solar system.

Brady steps into a team that's capable of a Super Bowl run. Manning comes into the league with Marshall Faulk as his RB, Marvin Harrison his #1 WR, and Tarik Glenn his LT. They haven't had the "privilege" of lining up with Jimmy Herndon, Demingo Graham, Jonathan Wells, Billy Miller, & Seth Wand. Maybe Brady could have made it through the past 3 years here, I don't know. But from watching Manning scream bloody murder after each time he's touched, I know he wouldn't have made it. Carr has stood tall all 3 years and barely said a peep. Things are going to get better around here, and David Carr's leadership will play a big part in that. And leadership, not TD/Int ratio, is how you ultimately judge a QB.
 
Think you are not giving Brady enough credit. The NE Patriots were a mediocore team and became a Superbowl contender once Brady was installed at QB. He makes the players around him better. That and his leadership are his greatest attributes. His skills as passer and in the pocket are often underrated by many.

NE's OL is okay, but not special. Unitl last year, he did not have an above average Rb and he does not have an Andre Johnson in his WR core.

I like Carr's leadership and toughness very much. No, he has not had even a mediocore pass blocking line, but I think blindly going when he gets a better OL, he will be a great QB is an oversimplification and ignores the fact he is not a complete product in his development.
 
I do see at least his stats getting better because of the idea of shorter passes and timing routes because our receivers, especially AJ can make alot of YAC yards, and once the opposing defences stary keying on the short passes we at that point can air it out with play-action pass as long as o-line can hold the point of attack just a little better which I believe they will with the added time together of another season.


sorry about the spelling
 
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